Observations on the closed 'tongues' thread

MEE:

THese guys cannot give you scriptural proof.
They can quote scriptures and say that is what they mean. They can pull down greek lexicons and try to interpret them on an intellectual level. They can use big words to make themselves look important and tell us that we are not being logical. This is why we have so many dead churches across this country. Too many preachers who are intelligent but have no heart for the ministry.

We can read the scriptures for ourselves and know exactly what it does and does not say. They can argue about tongues, eternal security, gifts of the spirit and the supernatural but all they are going to have is a dead, cold and formal religion not a living vibrant belief. The Baptist church I attend right now three years ago was alive and vibrant and on fire for God but today it is dead and boring and dwindling in numbers. Attendance has dropped nearly 50%. The reason is the Pastor has become an intellect. His messages are cold and boring. They reach no one. They seem to be out of some seminar or book instead of from the alive and vibrant word of God. He tells us what the Greek lexicon says about the subject but the people wants to hear what God says through his word.

We are criticized for having emotions but I would rather have emotions then be stone cold spiritually dead. I don't regret that I can weep for souls. I don't regret I can have joy and happiness in Jesus. I feel great when I get up to sing a special and the spirit of God anoints me and uses me so he can reach deep into the souls of the people listening and they can receive blessing. I am glad that when I pray for someone to be healed I can expect an answer. If I didn't have faith in God and the supernatural when I was diagnosed with diabetes right after 9-11 I would still be on insulin pills, having to prick my finger two to three times a day and worrying about things diabetes can effect but Praise God, he healed me. My blood was running 400 to 500 in sugar count and now it is back to normal running 70 to 120. I know God healed me and all these who deny the power of God can scoff all they want to but it doesn't change things.

Back in 1977 two weeks before the pastor of the church I attended was killed in a head on collision God gave me a dream that I was walking across the parking lot to the sanctuary when a young man came up to me and told me the pastor had been killed. I was wearing a Navy blue suit carrying my Bible. I told others about the dream. Two weeks later this event took place exactly step by step as in the dream. So no one can convince me that the supernatural ended with the death of the apostles.

47 years ago last week in Enid, Oklahoma my mom was giving birth to me. When they did the episiotomy they cut too deep and she started to bleed to death. They gave her a transfusion which poisoned my blood since I had not been delivered. When I was delivered they gave me a transfusion but my body rejected it. I was dying. The doctors said there was no hope. They called my uncle in from Korea to give me another transfusion and it failed but when my granddad prayed for me God intervened and now 47 years later I can still praise him for this. So you will never convince me that my God doesn't heal anymore.

 

MEE~of all that I wrote, it just goes to show what you're more interested in. Sorry, don't know what you meant by red flags. "It" is salvation. Just because many Baptists are saved but don't go around all bubbly or whatever, some think they don't have the 'fire' they should. I can sit for hours & listen to sound-preaching(without the hoopla of a tongues'service) & never move a muscle, and be completely absorbed; yet some would label me as being in 'dullsville'. Wrong!

The teachings you are under are heretical, therefore...

 

Since when does an understanding of Scripture come from checking your brains at the door and going by your emotions to interpret Scripture? Walguy, myself, and Granny have given you plenty of Scriptural evidence to prove that tongues have ceased. Your problem is that either you do not read what is written, or you do not understand what is written (a good possibility considering what you just wrote), or you refuse to believe what was written (in other words you are just plain rebellious to the truth). Which is it? No one is stopping you from asking questions. But don't demean those that have taken the time to patiently explain to you why your position is false, and then come out and slanderously say: "These guys can't give can't give you Scriptural proof." That's a false accusation.
DHK

 

Since when does an understanding of Scripture come from checking your brains at the door and going by your emotions to interpret Scripture? Walguy, myself, and Granny have given you plenty of Scriptural evidence to prove that tongues have ceased. Your problem is that either you do not read what is written, or you do not understand what is written (a good possibility considering what you just wrote), or you refuse to believe what was written (in other words you are just plain rebellious to the truth). Which is it?
DHK</font>[/QUOTE] all of the above

 

Granny Gumbo:

Again this is a matter of your opinion that tongues is heretical. You have no scripture proof, nor does Walguy, DHK or any others who have written on this thread.

I think I would think long and hard if I was you about criticizing other beliefs because it is obvious what you have was not enough for your own son.

There are a lot of baptist churches that are emotional. They clap when songs are being sung. Some people even raise their hands in praise. Others say amen to the message. People even shed tears because they don't want others to be lost. I will take emotionalism over dry and dead and boring services any time.

I think you are just as exclusive in your beliefs as the Oneness Pentecostals by comments you have made. You believe the Baptist belief is the only belief there is. You are hung up on denominations instead of Christ. The baptist belief came from two different individuals. John Calvin and Mr. Campbell. Both of these men led very ungodly lives before they passed away. Baptist criticized Jimmy Swaggart and Jim Bakker and other fallen Pentecostal or Charismatic leaders but fail to look at their own back porch.

A recent poll showed that 50% of the ministers in the Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian, Episcopal, churches have had a moral failure either through adultery, fornication, homosexuality, pornography. 45% of them have had significant debt problems. These are groups that condemn the moral failure in the Pentecostal/Charismatic movements but ignore their own failures. Instead of judging one another and criticizing one another because of different ideas the focus should be the lost world. You see this is exactly what was happening in the religious world when Jesus was born and had his ministry. The pharisees and sadduccees were debating doctrinal issues and ideas and they missed the first advent of Christ. Yes some of them were corrupt and morally evil but there were good men amongst them but they could not get their noses out of debates long enough to study the scriptures that would have shown them the truth about Jesus of Nazareth. They were arguing around the time of his crucifixion about what Kind of buttons were going to be on their clothes. What kind of colors and fringes.

People get so caught up in talking about issues that they ignore the lost around them. They ignore the signs of the times just like before and one day they will wake up to the realization the Jesus came and they were left behind.

 

DHK:

Again the truth is the truth. You have not proved by scripture. You have taken a greek lexicon and again given your interpretation of the scripture that you feel fits it and your belief. That is basically what others have done on this thread and what I said was not slanderous.
You think you have proven it just like others and others don't agree with you. Again it is your opinion and your interpretation.

I don't agree with all the Baptist doctrine but I don't slam the Baptist church like you guys slam Pentecostal Churches and Charismatic churches. In my opinion and belief some of what you teach is heretical also. Again that is my personal belief. You condemn churches who teach exclusiveness but you do the same thing. If I or MEE or ONENESS or others don't agree with you three or four people we are heretics and imbeciles. I have read every word you have posted and again I don't agree with your interpretation. You have not convinced me by your words nor your interpretations. I can look at a Greek Lexicon or another translation and get a total different view point. I have read different commentaries and have found different comments made by different people on the same subject. Each one of them will defend their view points but they don't call each other heretics or act like they are non-Christian.

I don't believe in Once Saved Always Saved but I am not going to say the doctrine is from the Devil. I know its origin and his name was Calvin.

I tell you why I cannot believe many Baptist and that is because the majority of those I have dealt with have been very carnal, worldly, very not Christ like. I think a persons lifestyle proves or disproves their Christianity.

 

You ought not to be pointing fingers because you have had a bad experience. The same can be said about Charismatics and even more so. Read the thread on Benny Hinn. Look and research what goes on with Peter Popov. Other names have already been mentioned of leaders that have fallen into gross immorality.
The fact is you ought to be looking at Christ and not man. Your eyes are focussed on the wrong thing. You ought to be looking to the Word and not to experience to validate whether something is right or wrong.

If tongues is such an important gift for you today, why wasn't it important in Paul's day? I challenge you to answer these questions from the Scriptures.

1. Why in 1Cor.12:28, in a list of the gifts of the Spirt, put in order of importance, was tongues put last or least important?

2. Why in Acts 2 was tongues considered an actual language that could be understood by others, but today it is not a real language?

3. Why were woman commanded to keep silence in the church concerning tongues, and they do not obey this injunction today?

4. Why is there a stipulation of three people to speak in tongues at the church, and that one at a time, and that is not adhered to today?

5. Why is there the stipulation to always have an interpreter when speaking in tongues, else keep quiet in the church, and that is not adhered to in the church today?

6. Why does it specifically say that tongues is for the unbeliever in (14:22), and also for the Jew (14:21), and thus for the unbelieving Jew, and there are never unbelieving Jews in the church today?

7. Why does Paul say I would rather speak five words of understanding then 10,000 words in tongues?

8. Why does Paul indicate in 1Cor.13:8-13 that tongues have ceased?

9. Why is there no command, no instruction, anywhere in Scripture to speak in tongues.

 

Hmmmmm..... Here is another one Granny that you forgot to mention.

1John 4:18. There is * no fear in love; but perfect love casteth * out fear: because fear hath * torment. He that feareth * is * not made perfect * in love.

Granny fact of the matter is, No one on this board really knows what "Perfect" is referring to. All of you can dispute the fact that it was the completion of the Bible, but all that is, is philospophy.

Again, All who oppose of speaking in tongues only have your own interpretation to back up what you believe. We have everything you have plus the evidence. You can rebut the fact that its the devil or its only a mirical yadda yadda yadda. But you will not convince us otherwise.

Granny, we dont need signs, but if signs are what God chose for us, then who are we to go agianst the direct teachings of our God?

Godbless

 

Should I?

No, I probably shouldn't.

That said, I'm gonna anyway:

Tongues are a sign for unbelievers. God chose them as a sign for unbelievers. Jesus said it is a wicked generation that seeks after signs.

So why do you seek them as "evidence" of the in-filling of the Holy Spirit in others?

Conclusions:
You seek the sign in others because you're part of the wicked generation.
You seek the sign in others because you're an unbeliever.
You seek the sign in yourself because you're part of the wicked generation.
You seek the sign in yourself because you're an unbeliever.

If you're not seeking the sign, in either yourself or in others, then why is it so important that you know others speak in tongues when they're baptized?

Answer: Because you can't be sure they're saved unless you know they've spoken in tongues.

Why is that wrong? Because salvation is of God, and between that person and God. You can't judge the heart; only God can. When you state that you must be sure, by knowing someone spoke in tongues, you're no better than the sect that rose up and said we must circumsize. And what did that lead to? Christians who thought to themselves, "Oh, I haven't been circumsized, so I haven't actually been saved yet."

You've placed a yoke on the people that God never intended.

If you're truly not seeking the sign, then it shouldn't matter to you whether another person has spoken in tongues or not.

When you desire/seek/pray for a spiritual gift, are you praying only for tongues? Or are you praying for the spiritual gift that God has for you? Aren't we all of the same body, but not the same gift? Aren't some hands, others feet, but not all are hands and not all are feet? Can the eye tell the hand, "I have no need of you"? Can the hand tell the eye, "I have no need of you"? Nay, follow after love, and desire spiritual gifts; but more than anything else, edify.

This emphasis that is placed on speaking in tongues leads to the conclusion that if someone heals, but hasn't spoken in tongues, then it's doubtful that they've truly received the Holy Spirit. It leads to the conclusion that if someone ministers, but hasn't spoken in tongues, then it's doubtful that they've truly received the Holy Spirit. It leads to the concluson that if someone teaches, or works miracles, but hasn't spoken in tongues, well, it's doubtful that they're truly received the Holy Spirit....

Some here have tried to say that 1 Corinthians 14 is not a rebuke, but instructions on how to properly use the gift. Think it through, folks: People on this thread and others have tried to tell you how to properly use the gift of tongues, using 1 Corinthians 14 as their basis, and how did you react?

Like you had been rebuked....

There will never be agreement on this subject.

Let it die.

 

All I can think of is, Amen!,Bro. Don.

 

Tongues are a sign for unbelievers. God chose them as a sign for unbelievers. Jesus said it is a wicked generation that seeks after signs.

So why do you seek them as "evidence" of the in-filling of the Holy Spirit in others?

Conclusions:
You seek the sign in others because you're part of the wicked generation.
You seek the sign in others because you're an unbeliever.
You seek the sign in yourself because you're part of the wicked generation.
You seek the sign in yourself because you're an unbeliever.

If you're not seeking the sign, in either yourself or in others, then why is it so important that you know others speak in tongues when they're baptized?

Answer: Because you can't be sure they're saved unless you know they've spoken in tongues.

Why is that wrong? Because salvation is of God, and between that person and God. You can't judge the heart; only God can. When you state that you must be sure, by knowing someone spoke in tongues, you're no better than the sect that rose up and said we must circumsize. And what did that lead to? Christians who thought to themselves, "Oh, I haven't been circumsized, so I haven't actually been saved yet."

You've placed a yoke on the people that God never intended.

If you're truly not seeking the sign, then it shouldn't matter to you whether another person has spoken in tongues or not.

When you desire/seek/pray for a spiritual gift, are you praying only for tongues? Or are you praying for the spiritual gift that God has for you? Aren't we all of the same body, but not the same gift? Aren't some hands, others feet, but not all are hands and not all are feet? Can the eye tell the hand, "I have no need of you"? Can the hand tell the eye, "I have no need of you"? Nay, follow after love, and desire spiritual gifts; but more than anything else, edify.

This emphasis that is placed on speaking in tongues leads to the conclusion that if someone heals, but hasn't spoken in tongues, then it's doubtful that they've truly received the Holy Spirit. It leads to the conclusion that if someone ministers, but hasn't spoken in tongues, then it's doubtful that they've truly received the Holy Spirit. It leads to the concluson that if someone teaches, or works miracles, but hasn't spoken in tongues, well, it's doubtful that they're truly received the Holy Spirit....

Some here have tried to say that 1 Corinthians 14 is not a rebuke, but instructions on how to properly use the gift. Think it through, folks: People on this thread and others have tried to tell you how to properly use the gift of tongues, using 1 Corinthians 14 as their basis, and how did you react?

Like you had been rebuked....

There will never be agreement on this subject.

Let it die.</font>[/QUOTE]

We dont seek them, we seek the Holy GHost.

Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe,

As I said before, We dont seek after the signs the signs follow us.

Which baptisim are you speaking of?

 

DHK, this is the "most preposterous" post that you has replied to yet!

In all of my thirty-five years, in an Apostolic Pentecostal Church, I have *NEVER* heard of anyone "teaching" anyone how to speak in tongues. It just can't be done. It is an act from God!

As far as the "Spirit of God" being conuterfeit, better think again!

DHK, when you stand before the "White Throne Judgement Seat," why don't you print out all of this that you have posted, against God, and have it with you when God pronounces your sentence? Believe me, it won't help you then as well as it is damaging to you now.

You need to "REPENT."

MEE

 

The fact that Jesus called those who approached him asking him to perform a miracle for a sign and he called them A Wicked Generation did not stop Jesus from performing miracles nor did it stop the Early Church from speaking in tongues nor did it stop the apostles from showing signs through miracles and wonders.

Again I have proven by what Paul said that he prayed in tongues. This is separate from the tongues he spoke of as one of the 9 gifts of the Spirit. That gift of tongues is a supernatural utterance that is interpreted by another then judged by another. As Paul stated when you pray in tongues you pray mysteries. Also because something is put in a certain order does not mean it is less important than others.

Paul said to prophesy was better than speaking in tongues unless you was used in the gift of tongues that is interpreted or what Pentecostals call Tongues and Interpretation.

I also don't know where you get that the tongues of today are not actual human languages? I posted a post proving that over and over again they have been known to be known languages.

Again a woman was not admonished about tongues but Paul said she was to be silent and if you studied the culture of that day you would know why Paul stated this. You can defend your beliefs on certain subjects and say culture needs to be studied but when it comes to the subject of women being silent you show that you are bigoted against women. YOu should follow your Lords example for Jesus never told a woman to be silent.

Your fourth question was answered above as the same as the fifth.

Paul said tongues is a sign to the unbeliever. Stop and think. Put on your thinking cap. Who was the greatest unbelievers in his day. The Jew so that clarifies that. Paul knew that tongues were supernatural and that the supernatural brings souls to Christ. Tongues and Interpretation many times revealed the hearts and the sins of the unbelievers. Who could have know the hidden parts of the heart of the unbeliever but God. This revelation through this gift brought sinners to Christ.
Paul said he would rather speak 10,000 words of understanding because again tongues as he said is usually between man and their God. Common sense tells us that it is not of God for someone to stand up in a service and chatter in tongues. This does not edify because who understands. When you understand the difference in the kinds of tongues then you will understand why Paul said this.

Paul did not state in 1 Corinthians 13:8-13 that tongues has ceased. You don't know and I don't know what the perfect is. You guess and I guess.
I was condemned for using a translation that you didn't like so I guess the Bible is not so perfect huh?

Paul said he wished that all spoke in tongues and Paul said not to forbid speaking in tongues.
The latter was a command.

 

Also Gamaliel warned the Pharisees about their attitudes towards the church.

I don't look at man as you claim but that is what the majority of you do. You see the excesses in the Charismatic movement and you jump to conclusions that all Pentecostals act this way. I know about the many failures of Pentecostal preachers but there are just as many failure among every denomination and group out there. No one is perfect yet be honest enough to admit that true Pentecostals live more godly lives then the majority of non-Pentecostals.

 

DHK, are you saying a demonic spirit & the Holy Spirit can abide / indwell a born-again Christian simulataneously?

Aren't born-again Christians "sealed with the Holy Spirit?" Isn't that part of the OSAS doctrine? So how can a demonic spirit enter someone who has been "sealed" by the Holy Spirit?

And how can someone who is seeking the baptism of the Holy Spirit while praying to God the Father receive a demonic spirit?

Is the spirit of "unbelief" a demonic spirit? Isn't a spirit of "unbelief" a spirit of atheism?

Has anybody in this tongues discussion ever SEEN anybody who was demon possessed? Has anybody in this tongues discussion ever WITNESSED a born-again Christian who was demon possessed?

 

Paul does show us 1Cor.13:8-13 that tongues have ceased, if you are willing to receive it. I do know what the perfect is referring to, and am willing to demonstrate it to you. It is not a guess on my part. It is demonstrable by a knowledge of the Greek, from which our New Testament was translated from. You previously used a paraphrase which is not a translation, but simply one man's opinion of what the Bible says. It omitted words and mis-translated others. We do have the perfect Word of God. The Bible declares we do in Psalm 19:7 and elsewhere. If you deny that we do not, then your arguement is with God, not with me. However, we have the perfect Word of God in the Greek and Hebrew manuscripts. If you are willing to have a discussion based on those manuscripts I am more than willing.
As to your other allegations, as usual you make claims without backing them up with Scripture. You say that the Bible says thus and thus without demonstrating it from Scripture. I give you Scripture; you answer with opinion. Not much argument is there.
DHK