Observations on the closed 'tongues' thread

"Greater is He that is in you than he that is in the world" (1John 4:4)
No, I don't believe that a true believer can be both possessed by a demon and the Spirit of God at the same time. I believe many have made false professions of faith, and are relying on their experiences (eg. tongues) to get them into heaven, which could be of demonic origin. I believe that a believer could be demon oppressed, but not possessed. Satan and his demons does have a lot of influence in this world, and we as believers are warned many times to: "Resist the devil, and he will flee from you."

Be sober be vigilant because your adversary the devil walks about as a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour, Whom resist steadfast in the faith. (1Pet.5:8,9)

Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. (Eph.6:11,12)
DHK

 

hrhema:
"The fact that Jesus called those who approached him asking him to perform a miracle for a sign and he called them A Wicked Generation did not stop Jesus from performing miracles nor did it stop the Early Church from speaking in tongues nor did it stop the apostles from showing signs through miracles and wonders."
---You are right it did not stop them. They still performed miracles as a sign to unbelievers, as a sign to a wicked and adulterous generation that demanded them. The fact that they were performed does not negate the purpose for which they were performed. (See 1Cor.14:21,22; Mat.12:39)

"Again I have proven by what Paul said that he prayed in tongues. This is separate from the tongues he spoke of as one of the 9 gifts of the Spirit. That gift of tongues is a supernatural utterance that is interpreted by another then judged by another. As Paul stated when you pray in tongues you pray mysteries. Also because something is put in a certain order does not mean it is less important than others."
---Agreed Paul prayed in tongues. He said he did. So, what have you proved? Nothing. It was a gift given to the first century Christians. Paul lived during that time.

"This gift was separate from the tongues he spoke of as one of the 9 gifts of the Spirit?"
--How so? A gift of the Spirit is a gift of the Spirit. A tongue is a language. Every time tongue is used it used in the sense of language or the actual organ of the tongue. It is never used in the way modern tongue speakers speak in tongues--gibberish. It is always a real known language that required interpretation. If there was no interpreter, the tongue-speaker was told sternly to keep quiet.

"As Paul stated, when you pray in tongues you pray in mysteries." Quote the Word of God!! And don't pervert it! That is not what it says. Here is the verse that you are probably referring to:

2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
---There is not one word in there about prayer. The word "pray" or "prayer" is not even mentioned. Don't assume that it is talking about prayer. It isn't. When you speak in tongues (without an interpreter) you speak in mysteries. Why? DUH!! No one understands you!!! You may be speaking a real language (if it is Biblical tongues), but if there is no interpreter it is a mystery to those around you.

"Also because something is put in order does not mean it is less important..." In many cases that is true, but not in 1Cor.12:28. Paul deliberately puts them in order of importance showing us by the use of the adverbs: "Firstly," "Secondly," "Thirdly," "and after that." They were put in descending order of importance. That is obvious in this verse.

"Paul said to prophesy was better than speaking in tongues unless you was used in the gift of tongues that is interpreted or what Pentecostals call Tongues and Interpretation."
---Quote the Scripture. Show me the "unless" part. I have yet to see this in the Bible. Do you use the same Bible that I use. Apparently not. BTW, you will find that the King James Version of the Bible has much better grammar than that which is portrayed in your above statement.

"I also don't know where you get that the tongues of today are not actual human languages? I posted a post proving that over and over again they have been known to be known languages."
---If you have, I haven't seen it. Quote Scripture demonstrating your point. Show me through the Word of God that tongues are not real languages.

"Again a woman was not admonished about tongues but Paul said she was to be silent and if you studied the culture of that day you would know why Paul stated this. You can defend your beliefs on certain subjects and say culture needs to be studied but when it comes to the subject of women being silent you show that you are bigoted against women. YOu should follow your Lords example for Jesus never told a woman to be silent."
---These instructions are given specifically to the local church, which started at Pentecost after Jesus ascended into Heaven, and are still in effect today. There is no reason to change the Bible. If you change the Bible on the basis of culture, and say that it is not applicable because the culture has changed; then going by the same logic you could say that homosexuality is acceptable today because our culture has changed. The Bible has not changed. God's instructions have not changed. They are there for a purpose: both concerning tongues and homosexuality.

"Your fourth question was answered above as the same as the fifth." "Paul said tongues is a sign to the unbeliever. Stop and think. Put on your thinking cap. Who was the greatest unbelievers in his day. The Jew so that clarifies that. Paul knew that tongues were supernatural and that the supernatural brings souls to Christ. Tongues and Interpretation many times revealed the hearts and the sins of the unbelievers. Who could have know the hidden parts of the heart of the unbeliever but God. This revelation through this gift brought sinners to Christ."
---Prove through Scripture that speaking in tongues won anyone to the Lord. It was a sign to the unbelievers, not that it won them to the Lord, but that it authenticated the gospel message for the unbelieving Jews at that time. The supernatural does not bring souls to Christ. You think about that. It was Jesus who said concerning the rich man in Hell, and his five living brothers: They have Moses and the prophets. If they will not believe them, they will not believe though one rise from the dead.
If people will not believe the Word of God, neither will they believe if they be shown signs and wonders.

"Paul said he would rather speak 10,000 words of understanding because again tongues as he said is usually between man and their God. Common sense tells us that it is not of God for someone to stand up in a service and chatter in tongues. This does not edify because who understands. When you understand the difference in the kinds of tongues then you will understand why Paul said this."
---There is only one kind of Biblical tongues. All others are of the devil. Paul would rather speak with understanding than with tongues. That is what he said, and that is what he meant. Your "common sense" doesn't make sense.

"Paul said he wished that all spoke in tongues and Paul said not to forbid speaking in tongues. The latter was a command."
---Yes indeed. It was a command to the first century Christians who could exercise these gifts before they ceased at the end of the first century.
DHK

[ July 05, 2002, 07:52 PM: Message edited by: DHK ]

 

I believe that a believer could be demon oppressed, but not possessed.[DHK]

Dear Brother DHK~When you have time, could you please explain this for me? (This is what I think has happened to Patrick, but I'm not sure I know exactly what it means). Thank you. Patricia

 

Granny:

I think DHK is talking about "born again believers" who for whatever reason continue in a certain sin or area of disobedience.

A possible example would be a "born again believer" who is involved in a sexual relationship outside of marriage but still witnesses and shows much other fruit of the spirit.

Ergo he would be oppressed by a particular demonic influence while not possessed and acting out all manner of evil manifestations.

And in regard to your son, this may be exactly what is going on.

 

All I can say is that I think we need to be sweeping our own porches and stop sticking our nosy bodies on someone elses.

Truth is, if we spent our time tending our own business, we wouldn't have any time left to be tending to someone elses.

I think the tone in this thread has gotten a tad offensive. Calling fellow brother's and sisters in Christ heretics is simply not right.

 

#1: Multimom, we have a responsibility to our brethren.

Romans 15:1 We then that are strong ought to bear the infirmities of the weak, and not to please ourselves.

Galatians 6:1 if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness

#2: Yes, the spirit of Christ has left this thread. Why do you think I keep posting the phrase, "Let it die"?

 

Just so you know, Don, whenever we have closed a thread on tongues or Unitarianism, another one pops up immediately, often the very hour that we announce the closing of the topic. So when do you suppose the Spirit left these threads? On this one at page three? A week ago? Two months ago?

I appreciate you standing up for Christ and for the Scriptures. This board is a microcosm of the world and the struggles that exist within it. I wish I had had the training that this board offers when the pseudo-Pentacostals first came to my church. We are just now cleansing ourselves of them. None of it will "die" until Christ returns. Come Lord Jesus.

 

Clint, y'all do great work with these boards, and your efforts are greatly appreciated. "Let it die" is not directed at the moderators.

What I'm talking about is exactly what you said: As soon as one thread is closed, someone pops another up.

The intent is no longer a study of the Bible and what it says on the subject of tongues. Hasn't been for a long time now. The intent of everyone posting, and I'm just as guilty of it as anyone else, is "I'm right and you're wrong."

In other words, we're at the point of "fruitlessness," but we keep grabbing and squeezing anyway. I think the horse was dead quite a while back, but everyone's jockeying to try to be the last one to kick it....

[ July 07, 2002, 01:28 PM: Message edited by: Don ]

 

Originally posted by Multimom:

A possible example would be a "born again believer" who is involved in a sexual relationship outside of marriage but still witnesses and shows much other fruit of the spirit.

With all due respect, Multi-Mom, I think that if a person actually is involved in Adultry, it seems they would be more than just oppressed.

IMO- someone could be oppressed by demonic influences to commit adultry, which would be strong temptation. By putting on the full armor of God, they would be able to stand against the enemy's tactics. I think the Holy Spirit would do enough convicting in the believer's thought life to intervene. This is just a quick thought I had...

God Bless,
Naomi

 

I wanted to also add to my last post that temptation usually begins in our thought life. If we continually think about a sin that easily distracts us, we could end up acting upon it.

I think that we can also place ourselves in situations that can be futile as well. For example: If a male and female, are spending too much time together (even in ministry) this can lead to temptation. Yet, the bible says that no temptation comes to us that is not common to man. I guess we are all in the same boat! LOL! We need each other so we can encourage one another in this. Amen? Amen!

God Bless,
Naomi

 

Naomi:

I understood your point about adultry. When I was writing the post I was thinking of an unmarried person involved in a sexual relationship. So technically it was fornication but the word just didn't feel comfortable at that moment.

 

Look DHK, I do belive there are people out there that try to teach people how to speak in tongues. They may say "Now Listen to me and do the same thing."

That is a bunch of bull, and is probably not the real thing. I agree with you in that sence.

But all the prayers you just stated kind of reminds me of that one all our baptist and other denominal brothers like. Its called the "Sinners Prayer"

The ones that you posted and includeing the ones that your Pastors Teach are both bogus if they are just said with your mouth. But only God knows the Heart.

God bless

[ July 07, 2002, 04:31 PM: Message edited by: ONENESS ]

 

I do not think demonic should be your word of choice.

If I am praising God and worshipping him and I begin to speak in tongues It is of GOD.

Tell me why you think this?

[ July 07, 2002, 04:29 PM: Message edited by: ONENESS ]

 

Good for you MEE. I am glad that you don't follow Kenneth Hagin's type of teaching. If that be the case then tell me when you speak in tongues what language do you speak in? Who interprets for you? From what language, and into what language do they interpret, and for whose benefit? Tongues were always, always, for the benefit of the edification and understanding of the local church. So please tell me what languages you were speaking when you spoke in tongues.
DHK

 

DHK,
I agree with you about so many things that you have stated! I am sure that there are ones who try and "work" up a "show" to prove to others they are spiritual. This comes from insecurities they have about their salvation. It is real close to being a "works" mentality. I have seen this happen. However; we cannot negate the gifts of the Spirit due to our "experiences" with certain people or groups.
You are certainly not a babe in Christ, I can see that by your posts. I do see that you, yourself are throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I mean, you are going by your own experiences as well. (I say this with respect)

You stated:
That's a dangerous thing. That gives way to demonic oppression/possession. Never open your mind to anything

Scripture states: For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

When we read 1Corinthians, Paul is talking about having order in the church. He said not to speak in tongues, unless there is an interpreter. It would be out of order. It would not be edifying to the church. He did not say, not to speak in tongues.
14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him.
Paul makes this statement about speaking in tongues.
14:27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. 14:28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

Again, his entire point was order in the church. I know we do not see this happening alot, but like you said:

We live in a very emotion-centered world. Everything centers around "me," my self-esteem, how I feel, my emotions, feelings, etc. The Word of God is discounted today in favor of people's emotions and experiences. That is not a good thing.

This is so true!! We live in a very selfish world. We as christians, should live the total opposite, unselfish for us to live is die, and Christ is gain! If we allow Him to live through us, we end up shining our light before men, then people see that, and praise God in heaven. It is totally different than someone giving any glory to "men".

This is just my thoughts...
Naomi

 

If one simply over-generalizes and states that 1Cor.14 is a chapter talking about how God would have us behave orderly in the church, then they are not taking God's Word seriously. Paul, writing by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, laid down a number of stipulations in this chapter under which the gift of tongues could be used. Any honest study of this chapter would show that it would be highly improbable, if not impossible to keep the conditions that Paul set forth for the Corinthian believers. The reason for that is simply that the gifts have ceased. But to list some of them quickly:
1. They were real actual languages (that is what the word means).
2. They were meant always for the church, and always for understanding. (14:6-11)
3. They always had to have an interpreter. (14:28)
4. There could never be more than three speaking, and never speaking at the same time. (14:27)
5. Women were not allowed to speak at all; they were to keep silent. (14:34,35)
6 Tongues were a sign to the unbelieving Jew; if there were no unbelieving Jews present it was a fruitless gift to have. It was a sign specifically for the Jews. Do the churches have unbelieving Jews present today. (14:21,22)

Culture does not change the Word of God. God has still stipulated that these restrictions be put in place. God does not change. It is man who wants something that ceased according to God's plan. Tongues were a sign for the unbelieving Jew. They rejected Christ, His message, His messengers (the Apostles), and the signs that accompanied them (tongues). (See Acts 14:21). Thus God brought judgement upon the nation of Israel as He said He would. Jerusalem was destroyed by the Roman army in 70 A.D. It was around then or shortly thereafter that tongues ceased, coinciding with the other purpose of the revelatory gifts--the completion of God's Word which happened at the end of the first century when John completed the Book of Revelation. That is when the gifts ceased.

Let's take a look at the verse you quoted, and what it really means:
13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.
14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
--First note that in verse 13 Paul dictates that he that speaks in an unknown tongue ought to pray that he may interpret. Later on Paul will say that if he has no interpreter, he must keep quiet.
--Second, in verse 14, when Paul says that he prays in an unknown tongue, he also says his spirit prays. Then he says his understanding is unfruitful. That is the point he is making. What is the use of speaking in an unknown tongue if there is no meaning. On the mission field there were many times when I bowed my head in prayer while others prayed in a tongue (another language) that I did not understand. My spirit could pray with them. But my understanding (of them or their language) was unfruitful. I could not understand the language. I did not have an interpreter. Paul describes a similar situation in this verse. The entire chapter contrasts understanding to that which has no understanding; edification to that which does not edify; prophecy to tongues.

27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
---These verses are very clear about interpretation. Why? There must be understanding in the church. The church must be edified. Tongues was never meant as a prayer language, a private gift, a gift to be used selfishly. It was given to the local church, for the church to be built up and edified.
DHK

 

If one simply over-generalizes and states that 1Cor.14 is a chapter talking about how God would have us behave orderly in the church, then they are not taking God's Word seriously.
DHK[/QB][/QUOTE]

DHK,
You seem to love reading and studying the Word, as I do.
You have shown to be able to discuss the scriptures without personal attacks or intimidation by anyone. Because of this, I would like you to be involved in a new thread I am beginning. Please refer to "1 Corinthians 12-14" thread.
I am beginning this, because of all the other threads concerning the gifts, and tongues. There seems to be enough of an interest, but scriptures seem to be here and there, not precept upon precept. I know you would not be argumentative, and we would be able to discuss this with christian character .

I want you to know this before you join...In no way, shape or form, do I think one who believes in and operates in the gifts are more "spiritual" than those who do not. It is my beleif that one who has any authority in spiritual places, are those who exercise the greatest gift of all...and that is Love! It is only by the fruit of the spirit that one is a mature christian.

Please Join me....
Naomi