Where is Hell? Part II

Are or have....which is it?
I am not disputing that the Hebrew says 'nephesh chay' for both man and beast. I am disputing the word 'have'. IT DOES NOT SAY HAVE. In the passage about man it says 'became' (hayah-to exist, i.e. be or become, come to pass) You keep saying men HAVE a soul. The Bible says man BECAME a living soul. I even said that man and beast were formed of the same elements! The BIBLE calls them 'soul' and 'creature' probably because the translators thought it would sound 'better' that way. Who knows!

My point is, that those passages PROVE undeniably, that when God made the FIRST man, which we are all sons and daughters of, that He formed him of the dust and breathed into him the breath of life and he BECAME a living soul. It DOES NOT say that God formed a body and put a soul IN it.

The point is, that if we ARE a living soul, when the 'dust' is separated from the 'breath' we CEASE to be a living soul.

I am not posting this to further contend with you, I just wanted to make clear WHAT I meant, as you seem to still be confused as to my intentions.

If you agree that both man and beast are made of the same elements and are both 'nephesh chay' then you must also agree that the Bible is true that man BECAME (hayah) a living soul.

God Bless

 

What I am refusing to accept is that you are IGNORING texts that disagree with your doctrine.

Context? Let’s see, according to you the last week of the 70 weeks of Daniel are the tribulation period, yet there is NO mention of the tribulation period in that passage. However, there is mention of Jesus, and HIS action that stopped the sacrifices.

Daniel 9:25. Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem(457 BC) unto the Messiah the Prince (27 AD) shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks [69 weeks]: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.(completed in 408 BC)
26.And after threescore and two weeks [62 weeks] shall Messiah be cut off (31 AD), but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary (Rome 70 AD); and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 28.And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week(27-34 AD Gospel preached to Israel): and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease(31 AD Crucifixion), and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation (time of consuming- i.e. FIRE), and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

457 BC Order given to rebuild Jerusalem
408 BC Jerusalem and Temple completed (7 PW or 49 L years)
27 AD Jesus anointed ‘confirming the covenant with Israel’ (exactly 69 PW or 483 L years after the order)
31 AD Jesus is crucified (exactly 3 1/2 L years after He was anointed, or ‘in the midst of a PW)
34 AD End of ‘covenant’ marked by the stoning of Steven and the Gospel goes to the Gentiles (exactly 70 PW from the order or 490 L years)

(*PW- prophetic weeks *L literal years)

Now, HOW does that leave room for a 7 year tribulation period?

Hermeneutics The science of interpretation and explanation; exegesis; esp., that branch of theology which defines the laws whereby the meaning of the Scriptures is to be ascertained. Exegesis to explain, interpret; to guide, lead, akin, to 1. Exposition; explanation; especially, a critical explanation of a text or portion of Scripture.

I do not follow the laws of man when it comes to HOW I interpret scripture. As far as linking scripture together, that is my OBEDIENCE to the Bible.

Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
Isa 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
Isa 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
Isa 28:12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
Isa 28:13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

MUST BE, that sounds like a COMMAND to me.

Largely wanting what? To agree with yours? My logic is based on the Bible.

Pro 3:3 Let not mercy and truth forsake thee: bind them about thy neck; write them upon the table of thine heart:
Pro 3:4 So shalt thou find favour and good understanding in the sight of God and man.
Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
Pro 3:6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
Pro 3:7 Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.
Pro 3:8 It shall be health to thy navel, and marrow to thy bones.

My equation is based on scripture, and YOUR breath does not have the power to create, however God’s does. It is simple, either you believe what the Bible says or you don’t. I leave it to you.

Firstly, keep your MAN MADE definition of a cult to yourself. Secondly the book of Ecclesiastes is a sermon that Solomon gave. It was INSPIRED by God.

I’m sorry, did you really just say that? My mind reels that you could actually say that the WORD of GOD that was WITH God and IS God, is ‘NOT necessarily God’s point of view’!!!! Unbelievable.

So then the unbeliever will go to ‘hell’, receiving his reward (according to this doctrine), and then be BROUGHT back out of hell, and put back into a body, that is now IMMORTAL (according to you), and then be judged (for the life that he has ALREADY been suffering punishment for).
That makes NO sense. And you say MY logic is wanting.

OH!!! I see it now, unless I have YOUR understanding of scripture, I am taking things out of context and making up doctrines. That, again, is unbelievable.

So then I guess it means NOTHING to you that it says ‘and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts…’

I guess that isn’t part of ‘the exegesis’ of your doctrine to read the word ALL and believe that it means ALL.

How could you NOT know what I am talking about, I just explained it to you! You said that the book of Malachi IS NOT FOR 3AngelsMom! Now unless there is someone else here named that, you are referring to ME. I AM , and if you were grafted into the family of God, are too, NO longer a gentile.

Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Rom 9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
Rom 9:26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

That promise is referring to the Messiah. The ‘blessing’ that would come from Abraham is HIS seed, that is Jesus. It says in that passage that ALL the nations of the world will be blessed by it.

So then the Messiah is not for me?

That I will agree with, on the grounds that I am a woman and not a father or son, and there are promises in the Bible for men, brothers, sons, fathers, husbands, and preachers. Other than that, I am a child of God, and the promises that are for Israel, ARE for the children of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. My God.

In what passage did God promise Moses He would speak through a burning bush? I don’t recall ever seeing that. All I know of is God DOING it.

I find it interesting that you can read those verses and still say that the Word of God is not ALL for me. Again, the word there is EVERY, ALL, these are not difficult terms to understand. They are words of totality. They mean that NOTHING is excluded.

Every word is for my learning but not FOR me? How is that?

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Is that for Israel too? It’s in Hebrews!!

Now how is that a prophecy IN Malachi, that is ‘for Israel only’ can be the partial fulfillment of a prophecy in Revelation that is FOR ALL????

Again, the 2 Witnesses are the Old and New Testament. They are the WITNESSES of Jesus. The Old because it prophecies His first advent, and the New because it testifies of His life and sacrifice and tells of His second advent. The prophecy of the 2 Witnesses has already been fulfilled.

Rev 11:3. And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days (1260 PD=1260 L years), clothed in sackcloth.

1260 years 538 AD to 1798 AD the period of time known as the ‘Dark Ages’. When the Bible was not allowed to be read by common people, but priests only. These 2 Messengers were ‘clothed in sackcloth’ because the Light of the Word was obscured.

4.These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. (could not be Moses or Elijah, for neither were EVER called an Olive tree)
5.And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. 6.These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

7.And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8.And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

The beast will make war with them. Overcome and kill them. The French Revolution (1789-1801AD) was not only political but religious. They rebelled against the Papal rule in Rome and the Monarchy in France. They threw all rule out the window and replaced it with ‘The Goddess of Reason’ and a form of secular humanism. The French BURNED Bibles in the street. For the first time in 1260 years, the world was no longer controlled from Rome. On February 15, 1798 the Pope was taken captive by Napoleon and placed in exile where he died. The ‘philosophers’ of that time were the new ‘priests’. People like Voltaire and Rousseau led the people into a general revolt against GOD. They were the first nation to ever ‘de-Christian-ize’ themselves. France was at this time ‘spiritually’ KILLING the Word of God.

9.And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10.And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

The people in France were disgustingly wicked and lived very hedonistic lifestyles. They trampled on the Word of God with their actions. And rejoiced to do so.

11.And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12. And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
13.And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

After the 3 ½ years of the French Revolution, Napoleon was defeated, and a new era was dawning. The Bible Societies that we still have today, that were started by Joseph Hughes, a Baptist began at the close of this 3 ½ year period, in the mid part of 1800.

Sodom/Egypt- Where our Lord was crucified. Rome was a great Empire at the time of Christ and at the time of the Dark ages. Rome is what it is talking of here. France, was at this time a part of the Roman Empire ‘a tenth’ part. That part ‘fell’. (The Roman Empire at that moment in history was made up of 10 parts). The ‘earthquake’ of the French Revolution claimed an unknown number of lives. Some believe it to be more than the American Revolution. The French fought for 23 years. Only God knows how many were killed. Those who remained after the revolution rejoiced, and gave God the Glory.

Based on ONE verse (that you didn’t reference) you think that Jesus will ‘rapture’ the dead and living saints BEFORE the plagues?

CONTEXT??????

Rev 15:8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.
Rev 19:1 And after these things (the plagues) I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Plagues THEN Second Coming and Resurrection.

‘opinions don’t count’ vs. ‘the Word, PROPERLY UNDERSTOOD’ hmmm, GREAT contradiction.

How are they not related? In the OT the Gentiles were dogs, in the NT they are sons. If the prophecy for ‘Judah’ is NOT for the whole world, then neither is the prophecies in Revelations, for it is to the 7 Churches.

Firstly, DUH, of course there are 2 resurrections, however they are separated by 1000 years as the Bible says (as opposed to the FALSE statement you just made):

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Ok, that made no sense. Samuel- mortal, IS not serving in the Temple RIGHT NOW. Even if he was in heaven (which he could have been part of the special resurrection at the time of Christ’s death) he wouldn’t be serving in the temple! The Great White Throne Judgment is HERE on earth AFTER the 2nd Resurrection and the New Jerusalem has been brought down. Eternity, and eternal life only applies to the SAVED. The lost do NOT get eternal life. They do not receive immortal bodies. THAT IS A DOCTRINE OF DEMONS.

They will be there in the bodies that were in the grave. NOT new immortal ones. They will be the same thing that went into the grave, the ‘living soul’ that was here before. This same ‘soul’ that died and slept in the grave, will hear His voice and come forth to the judgment. There is NO mention in scripture of a 1007 years between the 2 resurrections. The doctrine that is sick is one that is TOTALLY made up.

1007 day prophecy – Left Behind- By Tim Lahaye and Jerry B. Jenkins.

Men are body and spirit, the bodies are sleeping awaiting the resurrection, in which they will ‘hear HIS voice’ and come forth. The wicked to everlasting damnation and the righteous to IMMORTALITY and everlasting life. This doctrine you hold is false.

I didn’t say that spirit was resurrected, you are dodging the question. WHERE in the Bible does it say that the wicked receive immortality?

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

DEATH. They die. The nature of fire is that it burns while there is fuel for it. Eternal fire is only different in ONE respect, that the thing that is burned up WILL NOT ever be rebuilt. Look in the bible at ever place that ‘eternal fire’ is mentioned and you will see that anything or anyone who suffered ‘eternal fire’ were, utterly consumed, burnt up, destroyed, and furthermore were NOT rebuilt or revived. The fire is not eternal, the effects of the fire are eternal.

The Bible is NOT silent as to WHERE the Lake of Fire will be. IT WILL BE HERE!!!!

Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

The Lake of Fire is established when Fire comes down out of heaven and CONSUMES the masses.

What about the moon? Man has been on there, now it is tainted too?

There are so many contradictions in that statement that I don’t know where to start.
You say ‘the wages of sin is death- eternal death (contrast- life) You just added a word to the BIBLE. It does NOT say eternal death. It says death.
Your problem is that you REFUSE to believe that the BIBLE calls death SLEEP. I will admit that the actual word 'annihilation' is not in the Bible, but you REFUSE to admit that what the Bible says is true!
‘Death is not sleep’
THAT my friend is a lie.
James 1:27 you say?
James 1:27. Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
What did you mean to put?

God Bless

Edited for spelling

[ January 25, 2003, 01:49 AM: Message edited by: 3AngelsMom ]

 

DHK,

Actually I DID answer your question.

Page 7 of the original 'Where is Hell'

YOU asked: On page 8 I answered.

Your Whole- made up of:
Body- flesh + Spirit- breath from God = A LIVING SOUL!!!

In the greek it says

'holokleros (whole) pneuma (Holy Spirit,breath) psuche (vital breath) soma (body,of believers,ie.group,literally body, of animals,man)'

Whole-Holy Spirit,breath-vital breath-literal body

That is what we are made of.

3 Things to be preserved blameless and whole until the coming of Christ. Whole. Together.

SO if at 'death' your 'ghost' goes up to heaven, how then could you as a 'whole' be preserved until the resurrection?

And the blessing here is in the wish that we would be preserved BLAMELESS. How could that be? ONLY through the power of the Holy Spirit! AS part of the whole. That when we die we are a whole person body-flesh, spirit-GODS, soul-complete. It is so simple.

Does that answer your question? AGAIN.

Please address my last post.

 

That is not what it says in my Bible. Which version are you using?

'We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.'

The context of that passage is clearly speaking about lifestyle choices. To be 'dead' in Christ, meaning putting away the flesh.

I don't have time right now to go into this further, but will get back to it, later, please address the other aspects of the last major post I made.

Thanks.

 

I was thinking today about how your math works out. What about animals? Since they have a living soul, they have by your definition dust+breath. Then what is the real differnce with them and man? I know you say man is a living soul, but if animals are not one, then why can we obviously see their flesh (dust) and see that they are living (breath)? Are you just saying that animals are some type of container or something like that? I just don't understand what you are getting at with the HAVE and BECAME argument. It still makes no sense.

Neal</font>[/QUOTE]The same equation applies to animals as to man.

dust + breath = living soul/creature

We are both called 'nephesh chay'.

As far as the 'became vs have' argument:

If I say 'I became a man' (I am now a woman) that would be a COMPLETE change in what I am.

If I said 'I HAVE a man' that would show that I posses a man (in the form of my husband)

If you say 'I have a soul' that would mean that you posses IN you some kind of 'intangable being' that is, according to my understanding of your opinion, immortal.

If I say 'I became a soul' that would mean that I believe that God formed me from the elements of the earth and breathed into my body the breath of life and I became a mortal, tangable living soul.

There is a major difference and it is actually the root of this dispute.

The Bible says became.

You are saying have.

Make sense?

 

Actually, the original says neither have nor became for animals. It simply states "in which there is life [literally, "living soul"]." 3AngelsMom chooses have, and I see them as being a living soul, i.e. a living being, just like man. Man differs in that he has a spirit nature after the image of God.

Neal</font>[/QUOTE]Ok, misrepresent me one more time and this conversation is OVER.

I made it very plain as to what I believe that Bible says.

IF you refuse to accept it, it is between you and God. But going around and around on this issue, is pointless, seeing as how you do not seem to want to understand this concept.

On that premise, I will continue, if you can refrain from saying that I said something that I didn't. Deal?

Man AND animal BOTH are 'nephesh chay'. I would NEVER have said that they 'have' a soul.

The difference, which I already pointed out is that man was made in the image of God, with the ability to have intelligent thought, and the ability to CHOOSE. We have a free will to either choose God, or reject Him. Animals were not made in God's image but rather for His enjoyment and for the enjoyment of men. They are the SAME elements we are. Made from the same dust and breath. Just like an animal we will return to the earth when we die, and the 'breath' that gave us life will go back to God.

That does not make us animals. It makes us 'nephesh chay' a LIVING, breathing, SOUL.

If your 'soul' that is disembodied at death, LEAVES the 'living breathing' body, then it is NOT a soul. It would be a ghost (the ghostbusters kind) and it COULD not be called a soul, because it could not breathe.

If you understand what I mean now, lets move on.

If all you are doing is trying to antagonize me, then ignore that I even gave you the benefit of the doubt and answered you, and JUST MOVE ON.

Thanks.

 

Neal,

Sorry if I sounded agitated, I just get frustrated with the whole round and round of explaining such a simple concept.

A concept you still don't get.

That's ok though.

Take Care and God Bless.