Where is Hell? Part II

Carson,
I'm sorry to confuse you, and not make myself clear enough. The whole crux of this matter is a false doctrine that the SDA'a hold called soul sleep. They believe that when a person dies their spirit does not go to Heaven or Hell; it remains in the grave with the body awaiting the resurrection. On the part of the believer at the time of the resurrection the two (spirit and body) will then rise at the same time. That is the resurrection. 3AngelsMom claims that we do not believe in the Resurrection. Her reasoning is thus: We believe that when a believer dies he goes to Heaven (that is his spirit goes to Heaven.) Thus the song, "Safe in the arms of Jesus." What is raised at the resurrection is the body. I have maintained over and over again that the resurrection always refers to the body and never the spirit. 3AngelsMom disagrees. She says if that is so, then the Spirit in Heaven would have to descend from Heaven, be reinserted into the body, and the body and spirit translated back into Heaven. She claims that that is not a resurrection. What she doesn't understand is that:
1. The soul doesn't sleep--it is alive with Christ; it never goes in an unconscious state.
2. The resurrection is an instanteous event happening in a twinkling of an eye. God raises the body up. He does not tell us about how or when the spirit joins the body and it does not matter. It is pure speculation on her part. It is a miraculous event. I leave the miracle to God. The resurrection will happen. It is not as if the spirit or body will ascend like Jesus ascended slowly into heaven at the ascension. No this is an instanteous event. She is using this reasoning to justify her unbiblical doctrine of soul sleep. And in doing so comes up with an unbiblical doctrine of the Resurrection, plus a host of other unbiblical doctrines, that were very difficult for either Neal or I to make sense of. At one point she seemed to be saying that Christ died for our sins at the time of the transfiguration, but I think she cleared that one up.
If her view of soul sleep is correct, then when Christ died on the cross; his soul also slept (was unconscious or dead), and thus God was no longer in control of the world. She allegorizes the verse Mat. 12:40, basically saying it is a lie, and Christ was not in the grave for three days and three nights.
DHK
DHK</font>[/QUOTE]Carson,

As you can see, the problem lies not in my ability to understand a doctrine, but my REFUSAL to believe a doctrine that cannot be supported by Scripture.

The confusion is because, I say one thing and then DHK misrepresents me, puts words in my mouth, and is slanderous, and rude.

The question in this thread was 'where is hell?' And the topic went to DHK saying he was ALREADY immortal, and that he is a tripartite being. No evidence to support it.

I provided NUMEROUS scripture references, which he continually refused to accept as true, and 'explained' them away.

Regardless of what you believe on the matter, it is apparent to me that DHK has no intent on being led by the Spirit, and the Word of God, but wants to lean on his own understanding and the understanding of learned men.

I never said that Jesus died at the transfiguration, and if you look at the post I made regarding that, you will see that I said 'Jesus BECAME sin for us at the transfiguration' and I then edited it later because what I meant was He became sin when He was praying in Gethsemane. Simple mistake on my part which I fixed, and even in that DHK misrepresents me.

He claims to have 30 years of study under his belt, but then when shown FROM SCRIPTURE the truths of the Bible, he simply dismisses them as 'metaphoric' and 'not God's opinion'.

You as a Catholic should appreciate that the Word of God is TRUTH. I know you probably don't believe in using the Bible as your only rule, but you probably would agree that if the Bible says something and the 'other authority' (ie the Pope or other leader) says another, and the two are contrary to one another, you would go with the Bible. At least I would hope so.

People who don't like to obey the Bible and like to skip over the parts that they don't agree with usually resort to character bashing, name calling and just all around childish behavior. If you look, almost at the beginning of the discussion, and again here at the end of it, he is trying to make me look stupid and ignorant by misrepresentation and calling Ellen White a false prophet, and bad mouthing the SDA Church.

He ran out of legitimate arguments so he resorted to rudeness.

I tried to end the conversation, and he egged it on. I am ending it now.

If he decides to continue this conversation with ME as the topic. I will consider it slander and gossip and take it as such.

I am sorry that you got put in the middle of this.

God Bless.

 

Are you serious?

 

Originally posted by DHK:

hmmm.

Pot calling the kettle black????

 

I will give you a brief summary of what I believe.

I believe that hell is the grave. That in just about every instance in the KJV where it says 'hell' it should say grave.

I believe that no one is immortal except for God. God ALONE is immortal.

I believe that only the righteous will inherit immortality and eternal life.

I believe that the wicked will be destroyed.

I believe that when Jesus returns the dead who are sleeping in the graves will be awakened by the sound of Jesus's voice and come forth to receive their reward.

I believe that after 1000 years Jesus and all the saved and all the angels 'the whole host of heaven' will come back to earth and ressurrect the wicked and judge each of them according to their works.

I believe the wicked will be involved in one last revolt along with Satan against the New Jerusalem, and then God will pour out fire on them and consume them.

I believe that the consuming fire that is poured out on the earth is the Lake of Fire and the punishment for sin is death.

I believe that the saved will live forever in the New Heaven and New Earth.

I believe the wicked will be totally destroyed, and they will be no more.

I believe that the wicked will not receive immortality to be tormented forever through the ceaseless ages of eternity.

I believe that Jesus paid the penalty for my sin, which is death.

I believe that Jesus is going to protect me through the 7 last plagues, when He punishes those who worshiped the beast.

I believe that Jesus is going to destroy all the wicked who are still alive at His coming with the very Brightness of His coming.

I believe that there are people of God in every denomination.

I believe that in every denomination there are people who the devil has sent to deceive people.

I believe that I should try every doctrine against the Word of God, and the overall pattern of Scripture as a whole.

I believe that the Bible is the ONLY rule for doctrine.

Hope that helped!

God Bless.

 

YOUR 'SOUL (mind emotions, ie brain) will cease to function' will they 'be asleep'???? HELLO!

I'm sorry, but it said 'in the graves'. NOT in heaven.

REINSERTION!!! Yeah!

Who said the body is not resurrected? Not me!

DUH

Well go take it up with them, because I have NEVER said that there is a 'spirit' resurrection. The closest thing to that being said is YOUR belief of your 'spirit' being disembodied and going to heaven.

This isn't intended to prove soul sleep, this is intended to show that you are dust and breath. Try reading the whole thing together. It is pointing to the next verse.

So then why are you responding again?

There you go again CHANGING God's Word! It does NOT say 'to be absent IS to be present'!!!!!! Get it straight! Your explination is the biggest load of crud I have seen in a long time. The book of Eccl. was written by the man that God noted as the WISEST man in the world. I think that if GOD inspired him to write that, IT IS GOD SAYING IT!

So we dance again. The Spirit that is in HIS NOSTRILS. You have the Holy Spirit in your nose and that is what saves you? hmmm. There is more than one Spirit. All of it is from God.

'And we can dance, dance, dance, dance, watch me get down' If his 'ghost' went to heaven are they NOT thinking there?

So NOW you agree? Thank God you finally saw the light!

Continued in the next post

 

UH? what's to reconcile? God is the only Immortal One NOW, but when He returns He will give immortality to the just. It really is pretty simple.

I'm sorry did I miss something? You must have a different version of the Bible than me, because I didn't see that in there, ANYWHERE.

Dance. You are a pretty bad dancer too.

What? THE LAST TRUMP. THE LAST. LAST. Explain that away.

Sure, only, it is ONLY the just who are raised right there to immortality.

If Jesus has ALREADY SHOWN us that He has defeated death, and sin, and the grave forever, then why do people still sin, die, and go to the grave? He hasn't SHOWN us yet.

Dance dance dance. Where is the spirit? Mr. Spirit. He doesn't praise the Lord?

YES HE IS!!!! David is in HELL. Psa 16:9 Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope.
Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Dance to the poetry, man I'm dizzy. IN DEATH there is no remembrance. That means IN DEATH. Didn't say grave there. Explain that one away.

Man! Solomon should have some to YOU for guidance.

It didn't say that though did it. NO.

This isn't a painting. It is a literal statement. What do you do with Genisis 2:7? Are you NOT a living soul?

Interesting, I read it to my 7 year old, and it made sense to him.

For it not making any sense to you, you sure did run with it! You were right until you started giving the wicked immortality.

Duely noted

I didn't say Paul said Last Day, I said he KNEW it was the last day, based on his statement in the next verse. 'Those who love His appearing'

WHATEVER. Prove that from scripture.

It is a simple term that applies to what you believe, if you don't like it, stop believing it!

Actually the judgement seat of Christ is in heaven during the 1000 years. There IS evidence for that. And the reward He is bringing is IMMORTALITY in the form of a new body.

Hope this fit.

 

Yes, do you know what the fundamental doctrines of the SDA are?

God Bless

 

Why is that strange? Is there something significant about that time frame?

Those are the 2 things that give us our name: The 7th day Sabbath and our hope of the soon 2nd Advent of Christ. Hence- 7th day Adventist.

I am actually quite suprised to hear you say that. SHAME ON THEM! I can honestly say that the root of their bias is not the leadership but their own hate. It is not taught that we are to be anti-catholic. That is really sad to me that you have encountered that. When I posted my beliefs, notice that I said 'God's people are in every denomination'. That INCLUDES the Catholic faith! There may be problems within the Catholic Church (ever since it's beginnings, there have been scandals of one kind or another), but that does not mean that the PEOPLE that are faithful to God within the church are evil, or any less a Christian than people outside of it. I am truly sorry that you have encountered that kind of attitude. I hope that you can see through these people to the root of their hate, and that it is NOT the Seventh Day Adventist Movement that propigates hate!

Now that is a mix of a lie, along with a truth. We believe that Papal Rome, and the false doctrines that are in it represent the Great Whore. Again this is not a label on the actual people who are in this church, even all the way to the Pope. It is referring to the system of worship that is contrary to the Bible (which I know you don't agree with, and I understand, but it is just opinion, so don't take it too personally). The idea stems from the language in the Bible about the whore. First, a woman in prophecy, is always a church. The symbolic language of Revelation shows us that this church will have a relationship with all the Kings of the earth, and that not only will they be friends, but the religion of this church will permiate into the government of the nations. (i.e. Rome's affects on the whole world, through Papal counsel, and previous rule from Rome).

The last time I heard that, was when I was going to a Calvary Chapel! I don't ever recall anyone placing ANY prophecy on the Pope. We don't believe that the antichrist could be just one man. Evident by the presence of antichrist during Johns writing of Revelation. We don't think the Pope is anything other than a leader. I personally think the Pope you have now is a good man, with a good heart, and alot of love for the people. That doesn't sound like antichrist!

That is something that is pure speculation on our part. It's origins are pretty deep. Rome is responsible for changing, legally, the day of worship from Sabbath (Saturday) to Sunday. Since we have identified Rome as the 10 horned beast of Revelation, this 'mark' is not only an identifying point, but it is the antitype of God's true and Holy Sabbath day. We don't know for sure, as I said it is speculation. We THINK it will be either manditory Sunday observance or a law passed to prohibit Sabbath observance (both of those HAVE been laws before). But in the end, no one knows, and we are just throwing the idea around. I think every Christian does that from time to time, don't you think?

That is a pretty generalized statement, but it is pretty accurate. We believe that the 'chains of darkness' in the 'abyss' are here on earth after God has destroyed all the wicked with the brightness of His coming. We get this idea from Malachi 4. The Earth is again without form and void. 'An abyss'. Like it was before God separated the land from the water in Creation. This earth, with no one on it but the devil and his angels, will roam, trapped here, for 1000 years without anyone to tempt. While they are here, the saved are in Heaven with God, going through the books, and judging the lost and the fallen angels. I'm sure you have heard of this before, only you have probably always thought it was on earth. (the judgement seat of Christ)

This is a basic concept understood best from Scripture. I posted a list of the verses that show this doctrine in this thread already. Many people have a problem with this idea for a few reasons. 1. They think they are immortal already. 2. They think that they go straight to heaven when they die in spirit form. 3. They think that the 'soul' or 'spirit' (different people think differently on this one) is a separate, conscious being that can be taken out of the body. None of these doctrines are backed 100% by scripture. They may be proven from scripture with one passage, but these doctrines do not agree with the whole of scripture. After weighing the evidence for ALL of these doctrines, we have come to the conclusion that a person dies and sleeps in the grave until the ressurrection. Although, the weightier matters are that a person accepts Jesus as Saviour, and what they think happens after death is really irrelevant in light of the Gospel.

That isn't quite accurate either. We believe that 'hell' is actually the grave, and that all the 'souls' that were sleeping awake in the judgement. The wicked one's that is. They awake to the Great White Throne Judgement. I'm not really sure of the timing but at some point after they are awakened and before they are cast into the lake of fire, they will revolt along with Satan and all his angels, and try to attack the New Jerusalem. Which at that point is ON EARTH now. Then fire will come down out of heaven and devour them. So I am thinking that God will judge them AS SOON as He wakes them, and then in light of God's judgement they will show their true colors and ultimate wickedness and attack the city of God. The fire that devours them is the Lake of Fire. Then it says He will cast the devil and all the demons in there as well. At that point it says 'where the beast and false prophet ARE' meaning that they were part of the people who were attacking. Then the fires will burn until all is consumed. For an 'eon' the Bible says. And that IS a limited amount of time. NOT all of eternity. The old earth will be totally destroyed. 'passed away'. Then God will create a New Heaven and Earth and be TRULY able to wipe away every tear, and proclaim that there will be NO pain, NO sorrow, NO tears. It really is a very happy, just, hopeful thought. But either way, what we believe about the Lake of Fire, and what you believe about the Lake of Fire is really irrelivant to our Salvation.

Actually there are quite a few people at my church alone that are not veggies. I myself and my family are vegan, but only because my kids and I are really lactose intolerant, and we were already vegetarian before that. My parents were hippies. I never have liked meat. The SDA message of health, is based on two things, the levitical laws of clean/unclean, and the writings of Ellen White in regards to diet. Again, this doctrine is not a 'you need this for salvation' doctrine. It is to help you have a happier, healthier, LONGER life. The way I see it, is this, God made my body. He knows what it needs. He told Adam and Eve that He made every plant and tree that bore fruit for their 'meat'. He then later authorized the eating of flesh (most likely after the flood, because they took 7 of the clean animals in with them, as opposed to the 2 of each unclean ones). But at no point did God every say that the unclean animal was ok to eat. The reason I said it that way was intentional. Is it a sin to eat pig? I think so. But for you, and anyone else here who doesn't think so, according to Paul, you should respect my choice and I should respect yours. Some people don't eat fish on friday. I don't begrudge them their preference. I only care that they have Jesus as their Saviour. As far as the worldly entertainments are concerned. We make it a habit to abstain from all appearance of evil. What you look at and what you hear has an effect on your mind and your conscience. Most people wear their consciences pretty thin with the garbage that they read, listen to and watch. They become so familiar with sin that they fail to see it's enormity. Because by beholding we become changed. There are specific references in some of Ellen's writings referring to theaters and such, but that is not referring to the modern cinemaplex's we have. The theaters back then were live shows, usually with scantily clad women dancing around. I think there is also mention of dancing, and just think of what the dancing was like then..... if it was wrong then, what do you think God would think of it now? It is pretty bad now a days. Looks like people are having sex with their clothes on. I don't think God would like that very much.

The whole idea with living a Spirit led life, involves our submission to God and His Holy Law. Like I said before, if you are breaking the letter of the Law you cannot be keeping the Spirit of the Law. This is not contingent upon Salvation. But if someone is sinning willfully over and over and over, with no remorse or intention of repentance, they take the chance of grieving the Holy Spirit. The Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, is the refusal to obey the Holy Spirit. The faithful can't 'lose' their salvation because they had a bad day and said a cuss word to one of their kids. It would take a consistent willful expression of rebellion to God to blaspheme the Holy Spirit.

We live in such a way, that it could never come to that. If you allow the Holy Spirit to control your life, it will lead you into paths of righteousness.
Now on the flip side, living righteously doesn't mean you are Spirit led. Anyone can keep some rules, and be nice. But a truly Spirit led person, finds it a joy to live in obedience to Christ, and His commandments are not burdensom.

Hope that helped.

God bless

 

Sex

 

Thank You!! I thought so too. I figured since you were going to dismiss the 'Word of God' as NOT the 'Words of God', then I could dismiss everything you said as 'babbling'. I do believe you are reminding me of someone again.

'Thou shalt NOT surely die'.....

Good Bye.