Where is Hell? Part II

[neal4christ]

3AngelsMom,

What does it mean in the Bible when it says a husband 'knew' his wife? Or that he 'lay' with his wife?

Neal

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Carson Weber:
Hi 3AngelsMom & DHK,

Who believes what? What is the disagreement? I tried to follow your conversation, but it left me very confused.

Carson,
I'm sorry to confuse you, and not make myself clear enough. The whole crux of this matter is a false doctrine that the SDA'a hold called soul sleep. They believe that when a person dies their spirit does not go to Heaven or Hell; it remains in the grave with the body awaiting the resurrection. On the part of the believer at the time of the resurrection the two (spirit and body) will then rise at the same time. That is the resurrection. 3AngelsMom claims that we do not believe in the Resurrection. Her reasoning is thus: We believe that when a believer dies he goes to Heaven (that is his spirit goes to Heaven.) Thus the song, "Safe in the arms of Jesus." What is raised at the resurrection is the body. I have maintained over and over again that the resurrection always refers to the body and never the spirit. 3AngelsMom disagrees. She says if that is so, then the Spirit in Heaven would have to descend from Heaven, be reinserted into the body, and the body and spirit translated back into Heaven. She claims that that is not a resurrection. What she doesn't understand is that:
1. The soul doesn't sleep--it is alive with Christ; it never goes in an unconscious state.
2. The resurrection is an instanteous event happening in a twinkling of an eye. God raises the body up. He does not tell us about how or when the spirit joins the body and it does not matter. It is pure speculation on her part. It is a miraculous event. I leave the miracle to God. The resurrection will happen. It is not as if the spirit or body will ascend like Jesus ascended slowly into heaven at the ascension. No this is an instanteous event. She is using this reasoning to justify her unbiblical doctrine of soul sleep. And in doing so comes up with an unbiblical doctrine of the Resurrection, plus a host of other unbiblical doctrines, that were very difficult for either Neal or I to make sense of. At one point she seemed to be saying that Christ died for our sins at the time of the transfiguration, but I think she cleared that one up.
If her view of soul sleep is correct, then when Christ died on the cross; his soul also slept (was unconscious or dead), and thus God was no longer in control of the world. She allegorizes the verse Mat. 12:40, basically saying it is a lie, and Christ was not in the grave for three days and three nights.
DHK
DHK

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Carson Weber:
Hi 3AngelsMom & DHK,

Who believes what? What is the disagreement? I tried to follow your conversation, but it left me very confused.

Carson,
I'm sorry to confuse you, and not make myself clear enough. The whole crux of this matter is a false doctrine that the SDA'a hold called soul sleep. They believe that when a person dies their spirit does not go to Heaven or Hell; it remains in the grave with the body awaiting the resurrection. On the part of the believer at the time of the resurrection the two (spirit and body) will then rise at the same time. That is the resurrection. 3AngelsMom claims that we do not believe in the Resurrection. Her reasoning is thus: We believe that when a believer dies he goes to Heaven (that is his spirit goes to Heaven.) Thus the song, "Safe in the arms of Jesus." What is raised at the resurrection is the body. I have maintained over and over again that the resurrection always refers to the body and never the spirit. 3AngelsMom disagrees. She says if that is so, then the Spirit in Heaven would have to descend from Heaven, be reinserted into the body, and the body and spirit translated back into Heaven. She claims that that is not a resurrection. What she doesn't understand is that:
1. The soul doesn't sleep--it is alive with Christ; it never goes in an unconscious state.
2. The resurrection is an instanteous event happening in a twinkling of an eye. God raises the body up. He does not tell us about how or when the spirit joins the body and it does not matter. It is pure speculation on her part. It is a miraculous event. I leave the miracle to God. The resurrection will happen. It is not as if the spirit or body will ascend like Jesus ascended slowly into heaven at the ascension. No this is an instanteous event. She is using this reasoning to justify her unbiblical doctrine of soul sleep. And in doing so comes up with an unbiblical doctrine of the Resurrection, plus a host of other unbiblical doctrines, that were very difficult for either Neal or I to make sense of. At one point she seemed to be saying that Christ died for our sins at the time of the transfiguration, but I think she cleared that one up.
If her view of soul sleep is correct, then when Christ died on the cross; his soul also slept (was unconscious or dead), and thus God was no longer in control of the world. She allegorizes the verse Mat. 12:40, basically saying it is a lie, and Christ was not in the grave for three days and three nights.
DHK
DHK</font>[/QUOTE]Carson,

As you can see, the problem lies not in my ability to understand a doctrine, but my REFUSAL to believe a doctrine that cannot be supported by Scripture.

The confusion is because, I say one thing and then DHK misrepresents me, puts words in my mouth, and is slanderous, and rude.

The question in this thread was 'where is hell?' And the topic went to DHK saying he was ALREADY immortal, and that he is a tripartite being. No evidence to support it.

I provided NUMEROUS scripture references, which he continually refused to accept as true, and 'explained' them away.

Regardless of what you believe on the matter, it is apparent to me that DHK has no intent on being led by the Spirit, and the Word of God, but wants to lean on his own understanding and the understanding of learned men.

I never said that Jesus died at the transfiguration, and if you look at the post I made regarding that, you will see that I said 'Jesus BECAME sin for us at the transfiguration' and I then edited it later because what I meant was He became sin when He was praying in Gethsemane. Simple mistake on my part which I fixed, and even in that DHK misrepresents me.

He claims to have 30 years of study under his belt, but then when shown FROM SCRIPTURE the truths of the Bible, he simply dismisses them as 'metaphoric' and 'not God's opinion'.

You as a Catholic should appreciate that the Word of God is TRUTH. I know you probably don't believe in using the Bible as your only rule, but you probably would agree that if the Bible says something and the 'other authority' (ie the Pope or other leader) says another, and the two are contrary to one another, you would go with the Bible. At least I would hope so.

People who don't like to obey the Bible and like to skip over the parts that they don't agree with usually resort to character bashing, name calling and just all around childish behavior. If you look, almost at the beginning of the discussion, and again here at the end of it, he is trying to make me look stupid and ignorant by misrepresentation and calling Ellen White a false prophet, and bad mouthing the SDA Church.

He ran out of legitimate arguments so he resorted to rudeness.

I tried to end the conversation, and he egged it on. I am ending it now.

If he decides to continue this conversation with ME as the topic. I will consider it slander and gossip and take it as such.

I am sorry that you got put in the middle of this.

God Bless.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:


That was fun watching you dance around the WORD of GOD.

NOT

I guess the whole Bible is a metaphor and symbolic unless of course YOU need it to prove another false doctrine.

Let's see "spirit resurrection" that would be YOU who said that, every time it has been said. Are YOU a Jehovah's Witness, because you seem to credit them each time?

It is YOU who believes in reinsertion so quit trying to credit ME with YOUR false doctrine! You think you are separated from your body in spirit form at death and then at the resurrection you are 'similtaneously' put back in and given a new body. THAT IS REINSERTION. If you take something out and then put it back in, THAT is reinsertion. You believe in separation and reinsertion.

Your 'logic' makes no sense and you are casting away the Word of God for your doctrines of men.

May you live to prove to God in the Judgement that you did all you could in the light that you were given.

Good Bye.

I spent a lot of effort into answering your post, pont by point and this is what you come up with?? I explained very carefully to you all of your questions and/or objections, and this is the reponse I get?

fun watching you dancing around the word of God
That is your response! The old adage is true. When you have nothing left to say (are defeated in debate) then just call names and resort to sarcasm, etc.
Surely you can do better than that.
DHK

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by neal4christ:
3AngelsMom,

What does it mean in the Bible when it says a husband 'knew' his wife? Or that he 'lay' with his wife?

Neal

Are you serious?

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by DHK:

When you have nothing left to say (are defeated in debate) then just call names and resort to sarcasm, etc.

hmmm.

Pot calling the kettle black????

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:
Originally posted by DHK: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> When you have nothing left to say (are defeated in debate) then just call names and resort to sarcasm, etc.

hmmm.

Pot calling the kettle black????</font>[/QUOTE]I think it is the other way around. If it isn't then answer point by point my post: posted January 30, 2003 05:46 AM. You may want to do in sections, lest the post get too long.
DHK

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by Carson Weber:
Hi 3AngelsMom & DHK,

Who believes what? What is the disagreement? I tried to follow your conversation, but it left me very confused.

God bless,

Carson

I will give you a brief summary of what I believe.

I believe that hell is the grave. That in just about every instance in the KJV where it says 'hell' it should say grave.

I believe that no one is immortal except for God. God ALONE is immortal.

I believe that only the righteous will inherit immortality and eternal life.

I believe that the wicked will be destroyed.

I believe that when Jesus returns the dead who are sleeping in the graves will be awakened by the sound of Jesus's voice and come forth to receive their reward.

I believe that after 1000 years Jesus and all the saved and all the angels 'the whole host of heaven' will come back to earth and ressurrect the wicked and judge each of them according to their works.

I believe the wicked will be involved in one last revolt along with Satan against the New Jerusalem, and then God will pour out fire on them and consume them.

I believe that the consuming fire that is poured out on the earth is the Lake of Fire and the punishment for sin is death.

I believe that the saved will live forever in the New Heaven and New Earth.

I believe the wicked will be totally destroyed, and they will be no more.

I believe that the wicked will not receive immortality to be tormented forever through the ceaseless ages of eternity.

I believe that Jesus paid the penalty for my sin, which is death.

I believe that Jesus is going to protect me through the 7 last plagues, when He punishes those who worshiped the beast.

I believe that Jesus is going to destroy all the wicked who are still alive at His coming with the very Brightness of His coming.

I believe that there are people of God in every denomination.

I believe that in every denomination there are people who the devil has sent to deceive people.

I believe that I should try every doctrine against the Word of God, and the overall pattern of Scripture as a whole.

I believe that the Bible is the ONLY rule for doctrine.

Hope that helped!

God Bless.

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:
[qb]

There are only 2 possible views?

What about these?

Ecc 3:17 I said in mine heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work.
Ecc 3:18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.
Ecc 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
Ecc 3:20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
Ecc 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
Ecc 3:22 Wherefore I perceive that there is nothing better, than that a man should rejoice in his own works; for that is his portion: for who shall bring him to see what shall be after him?

It said that ALL return to dust again. Man and beast. Not one goes to the grave and the other to heaven or hell.

I have explained this to you before. Still you do not listen. I do not accept your faulty doctrine especially when you try to prove it from the Book of Ecclesiastes. Ecclesiastes, overall, does not give God's viewpoint on life, but rather the viewpoint of a secular philosopher, that of Solomon. That is the way he was viewing life, as he wrote the book. His theme: "Vanity of vanities saith the preacher, all is vanity." That verse recurs throughout the book. It is true for the unsaved person, but is it true for the believer? Is it true that your life is full of emptiness, not worth living for, full of despair, void of hope, looking forward only to death? Is that life for you? That, says Solomon, is what life is like for a person without God, and without Christ. It is miserable and hopeless. And when he views eternity without God, he doesn't see any difference between man and beast--just like the evolutionist. Man is animal after all isn't he. That is what this verse is teaching. Both man and beast go the grave. We are both part of the animal kingdom; there is no difference. Solomon speaks as one out of despair. He says in verse 20 that all go to one place and all return to dust, and then in verse 21 questions the very existence of an afterlife.
He is looking on life as a secular philosopher. You cannot use these verses to prove your doctrine of soul sleep, for you are taking them out of the context of the book.

You are wrong. Demonstrably wrong. I am tired of trying to talk to you because I posted the Bible, and you are trying to rationalize why these passages aren't the 'viewpoint of God'.

John 11:11 (KJV)
11These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
12Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
13Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
14Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

Jesus called death 'sleep' twice, and then when they asked Him He said 'he is dead'. EVEN Jesus called death 'sleep'.

Let's get this straight before we go any further. The Bible uses the word "sleep" sometimes as a synonym for "dead." It is not teaching soul sleep. It is simply a synonym, not a different doctrine. Let's use another verse first, then come back to this one. Look at (1 Cor 11:30 KJV) For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
--Because of the abuse of the Lord's Table in Corinth, the judgement of God had fallen on many of the believers, and it had fallen hard. For some of them, God made them weak; others He made sick; and still others He killed! "And many sleep," is a phrase that means "and many are dead." They died because of their disobedience to God. They were dead and buried. Many sleep. Many are dead. The two are synonymous. There is no great mystery here, and nothing hard to understand.

In John 11, Jesus said of Lazarus that he sleeps, and we go to wake him. He said that he is dead and we go to make him alive. He was speaking in slightly figurative language. Sleep meant death. Lazarus was dead. Jesus then came out and plainly told them so. So Lazarus was dead, and Jesus raised him from the dead. What did Jesus bring to life? The body of course! The spirit was never dead to begin with. What exactly happened to the spirit at that time, we will never know; the Bible does not tell us. You can wait and ask Lazarus. There is nothing here that proves soul sleep.

Synonym-A word having the same or nearly the same meaning as another word or other words in a language. Let's see, figurative-Based on or making use of figures of speech; metaphorical. It can't be both.

1 Thessalonians 4:15 (KJV)
15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

It says they are asleep.

So? It says they are asleep--meaning dead. I have no problem with that, and I don't think any one else does either. It doesn't prove soul sleep.

Here is where you start to dance. It says they are asleep, but oh no, that couln't mean soul sleep. Even though MEN are living souls. Well when they aren't living anymore, they are DEAD SOULS. Since 'dead' and 'sleep' are synonyms. They are sleeping souls.

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

The Lord will ascend with a shout, a trump, and the voice of the Archangel, and the DEAD, who were just called 'asleep' in the last verse, will RISE first.

That is right. The dead were called asleep because "asleep," as we have seen sometimes means dead. That still does not prove soul sleep.

And you dance some more. 'asleep means dead' but it doesn't prove souls sleep. hmmm. Are you not a soul?

John 5:28 (KJV)
28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

They that are IN the graves will hear His voice. If they were in heaven how would they hear His voice from the graves?

"to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." (2Cor.5:8) I know that if the Lord does not come back first, and I die that I will be with the Lord in Heaven. If I died right now I will go to Heaven. That I know. They may bury my body; but I will go to Heaven. My soul (mind, emotions, i.e., brain) will also cease to function. But my spirit will go to Heaven. And I will await there the resurrection of my body. That is what would happen should I die tonight. </font>

YOUR 'SOUL (mind emotions, ie brain) will cease to function' will they 'be asleep'????

HELLO!

That is what Jesus is teaching. Of course they can hear if they are in Heaven. He is speaking of their spirits.

I'm sorry, but it said 'in the graves'. NOT in heaven.

But on that Resurrection Day, He will cause those bodies to come alive. Spirit and body will once again be joined together in a glorified body. You don't have worry how he is going to do that miracle; just believe in faith that he will accomplish it.

REINSERTION!!! Yeah!

29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

All will be resurrected, some to LIFE, and others to damnation. Does not say some to LIFE and some to life of damnation. The wicked do not receive immortal bodies.

There is no such thing as a resurrection without a body. ALL WILL BE RESURRECTED! Now that is just what you said. If the body is not resurrected what is?

Who said the body is not resurrected? Not me!

Everytime resurrection is spoken of in the Bible it speaks of the body.

DUH

There is no such thing as a "spirit-resurrection," as the J.W.s try to teach.

Well go take it up with them, because I have NEVER said that there is a 'spirit' resurrection. The closest thing to that being said is YOUR belief of your 'spirit' being disembodied and going to heaven.

Genesis 2:7 (KJV)
7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

dust+breath=living soul

No, this only describes how God created man, and how man differs in essence from animals. This does not add to your argument of soul sleep. You have yet to prove anything yet.

This isn't intended to prove soul sleep, this is intended to show that you are dust and breath. Try reading the whole thing together. It is pointing to the next verse.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV)
7Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
dust-spirit= DUST!

I have already been through this with you.

So then why are you responding again?

It is a verse from Ecclesiates, thoroughly explained in a post above. To be absent from the body (the body turns to dust) is to be present with the Lord ("the spirit returns unto God"). The two verses teach the same thing don't they. What they don't teach is soul sleep.

There you go again CHANGING God's Word! It does NOT say 'to be absent IS to be present'!!!!!! Get it straight! Your explination is the biggest load of crud I have seen in a long time. The book of Eccl. was written by the man that God noted as the WISEST man in the world. I think that if GOD inspired him to write that, IT IS GOD SAYING IT!

Job 27:3 (KJV)
3All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils;

Job identifies the breath that is in him as the Spirit of God.

So? He identified himself as a saved person. I imagine he was. I have the Spirit of God in me too.

So we dance again. The Spirit that is in HIS NOSTRILS. You have the Holy Spirit in your nose and that is what saves you? hmmm. There is more than one Spirit. All of it is from God.

Psalm 146:3 (KJV)
3Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.
4His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

When the breath leaves, his body returns to the earth and IN THAT VERY DAY, his thoughts perish. NO CONSCIOUSNESS.

There is much poetry in the Psalms, and thus figurative speech. The psalmist here describes the death of an unsaved man: a prince, he says, of whom not to trust. When he dies: he expires, his body returns to the ground (becomes dust), and he ceases to think. Most people do when they die. Have you ever tried speaking to a corpse at a funeral? They don't answer back.

'And we can dance, dance, dance, dance, watch me get down' If his 'ghost' went to heaven are they NOT thinking there?

1 Timothy 6:15 (KJV)
15Which in his times he shall show, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
16Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

GOD alone has immortality. GOD.

That is right, and at the resurrection He will give that immortality to others as well. Notice the same verse says "whom no man hath seen, nor can see." Yet at the resurrection, in our glorified bodies we shall see Him as He is.

So NOW you agree? Thank God you finally saw the light!

Continued in the next post

 

[3AngelsMom]

Romans 2:7 (KJV)
7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11For there is no respect of persons with God.

Immortality is given to the just, and indignation, wrath, tribulation, and anguish will be upon the wicked, no mention of them receiving immortality.

You are not contradicting yourself, are you? You just emphatically pointed out that only God could have immortality, so I want to know how you reconcile this also.

UH? what's to reconcile? God is the only Immortal One NOW, but when He returns He will give immortality to the just. It really is pretty simple.

I have already told you what it means. However, just as the just will receive a body that will last forever at the first resurrection (the resurrection of the just) so will the unjust receive a like body at the resurrection of the unjust (the second resurrection) at the Great White Throne Judgement, at which time they will be thrown in the lake of fire and live in torment forever and ever.

I'm sorry did I miss something? You must have a different version of the Bible than me, because I didn't see that in there, ANYWHERE.

1 Corinthians 15:51 (KJV)
51Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

Death called sleep AGAIN.

And so it is. So?? "We shall not all be dead" It proves nothing about soul sleep.

Dance. You are a pretty bad dancer too.

52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

At the last trump, not at a secret rapture before a 7 year tribulation the dead will be raised (the same dead that were just called 'those who sleep') incorruptable, or 'translated' into immortality, and WE, those alive shall be changed too.

I don't agree with your timing. There is no suggestion that this event is after the Tribulation.

What? THE LAST TRUMP. THE LAST. LAST. Explain that away.

However it is the dead that are raised. They once had a corruptible body, and are at once given an incorruptible body. It happens in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye--instantaneously. It is the rapture.

Sure, only, it is ONLY the just who are raised right there to immortality.

53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

MUST. That means that it HAS NOT happened yet.

54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

ONLY then can it be said that death has been defeated forever!

55O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

The ultimate victor of death and sin is the resurrection. At the resurrection of Christ, He conquered all of these: death, sin, the grave. Because He rose from the dead is evidence to the believer that the Christian will also rise from the dead. Until that time comes, we are thankful to God who gives us victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

If Jesus has ALREADY SHOWN us that He has defeated death, and sin, and the grave forever, then why do people still sin, die, and go to the grave? He hasn't SHOWN us yet.

Psalm 115:17 (KJV)
17The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

If you are dead, you cannot praise God. If you were in heaven don't you think that you would be praising Him? And if you think that is referring to the wicked, if they were dead and 'in hell' do you really think that they would be trying to praise God?

Again, looking at life from this side of Heaven, that is true. Don't go carrying on any conversations with those lying wait in the morgue and you will be okay. I have a friend that works in a morgue. She does autopsies. But she doesn't carry on conversations with those that she "works with." As the Psalmist said: "the dead praise not the Lord," and that is exactly what he meant by it. Dead bodies don't make a lot of noise.

Dance dance dance. Where is the spirit? Mr. Spirit. He doesn't praise the Lord?

Acts 2:34 (KJV)
34For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

David is not ascended. That is in Acts. AFTER the special resurrection, and after Jesus ascended.

This is because the resurrection has not taken place yet. His body is not yet ascended into Heaven, but rest assured; David is there. He is not in Hell!

YES HE IS!!!! David is in HELL. Psa 16:9 Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope.
Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Psalm 6:5 (KJV)
5For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

In death people DO not remember God, and cannot give Him thanks. Isn't that strange. If I went to heaven that is the first thing I would do!

Again, the psalmist speaks of the body. The context is clear. There is no one in a 3' x 6' box 6' under the ground who shall give you thanks. And if there is I don't want to hear from him. Obviously he is speaking of the body, you know the one that is in the coffin.

Dance to the poetry, man I'm dizzy. IN DEATH there is no remembrance. That means IN DEATH. Didn't say grave there. Explain that one away.

Ecclesiastes 9:5 (KJV)
5For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

WE who are alive know that we will die, but the dead DO NOT KNOW ANYTHING. Their memory is forgotten. Now, I know that if I went to heaven I would TOTALLY remember how I got there, and why I wanted to go!

First of all that's not even what Solomon is teaching here. His point is that soon after death, people forget about you. Sad, but true. That's life, Solomon says.
Furthermore, as in other verses, Solomon speaks of the body once it is dead. Dead bodies don't know much, in fact they don't know anything--that's why it's okay to give away your brain for an organ donation. Your body doesn't know anything anyway.

Man! Solomon should have some to YOU for guidance.

Job 19:25 (KJV)
25For I (JOB)know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
26And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

He will STAND on the earth, not come close and then fly away. HE WILL STAND. And IN our flesh we will see Him. NOT IN SPIRIT, in FLESH, with our eyes. AFTER worms destroy the flesh. Now, if Job was already in heaven, wouldn't he have already seen God? hmm.

Yes, people who are saved, go to Heaven, and there in their spirit can see God. But someday Job's body will be raised, and he will stand on the earth. His flesh will have his spirit in him.

It didn't say that though did it. NO.

Ezekiel 18:4 (KJV)
4Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

The SOUL that sins will die. Basic math again dust+breath=living soul. THAT living SOUL will die. THE WHOLE THING. The entire MAN.

The expression regarding soul here is simply an expression that refers to man. "The 'one' that sins shall die." --anyone. Your math is still wrong.

This isn't a painting. It is a literal statement. What do you do with Genisis 2:7? Are you NOT a living soul?

Romans 6:23 (KJV)
23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The wage is death. If I have a job and the agreement was $5 an hour. And every week when I got my check I figured it out and they were paying me $2 an hour, don't you think I would be mad? Same thing here. The wage is death. Eternal punishment would be a $2 wage. A total rip off, a scam, and a lie. Last I checked, God was fair, just and DOES NOT LIE.

Your analogy does not make any sense.

Interesting, I read it to my 7 year old, and it made sense to him.

The wages of sin is death (eternal death in contradistinction to eternal life).
A wage, as you say is something you deserve, as in $5.00 per hour. You worked for it. You deserve it. That is your wage, that which you are entitled to. God says my wage is death. That is what I deserve; that is what I am entitled to, because of my sin. My sin entitles me to eternal death--separation from God for all eternity in a place called Hell. I don't want that wage. It's fixed; you can't get out of it. The wages of sin is death. However, Jesus came and paid the penalty for me. I deserved to die. That's what my wage was. Jesus paid it for me. He died in my place. He took my place on the cross, so that I don't have to pay anything. I simply accept His payment as a gift. Salvation is a free gift of God. The wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

For it not making any sense to you, you sure did run with it! You were right until you started giving the wicked immortality.

2 Timothy 4:7 (KJV)
7I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:
8Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

Timothy had it right! He knew that he would not receive his reward until the LAST DAY. Now, if he was in heaven, would that be his reward?

First off that was Paul, not Timothy.

Duely noted

Paul says "at that day," not the "last" day.

I didn't say Paul said Last Day, I said he KNEW it was the last day, based on his statement in the next verse. 'Those who love His appearing'

"That" day refers to the Judgement seat of Christ described in 1Cor.3:11-15, which will take place in Heaven during the time of the Tribulation.

WHATEVER. Prove that from scripture.

Revelation 22:12 (KJV)
12And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

And this makes it all work. HIS REWARD IS WITH HIM. Now, if all the 'dead in Christ' were coming with Him in 'spirit' to be reinserted into their bodies, then WHY, oh WHY would He need to bring the reward for EVERY MAN according to their works?

First we still believe in a resurrection, not a reinsertion, as you call it. Just trust God to do the miracle; after all He is omnipotent is He not?

It is a simple term that applies to what you believe, if you don't like it, stop believing it!

He brings His reward with Him. What does that indicate? As I have mentioned many times already the rapture is an instanteous event taking place in the "twinkling of an eye." The fact that He brings His reward with Him would only give more credence to the view that the Judgement Seat of Christ, when the believers are judged according to their works (not for their salvation) will take place.

Actually the judgement seat of Christ is in heaven during the 1000 years. There IS evidence for that. And the reward He is bringing is IMMORTALITY in the form of a new body.

Hope this fit.

 

[Carson Weber]

Hi 3AngelsMom,

Are you an adherent of the SDA Church?

As a Catholic, my theology is orthodox.

I believe that every human rational soul is immortal from the moment of its creation at conception and that the damned will suffer eternal hell, in whatever form that may be.

I believe that at our death, we are judged by Christ (this is the particular judgment) and if are condemned, we go to hell, and if we are saved, we go to heaven.

I believe that, presently, there are both bodiless souls and those with both body and soul in heaven (i.e. Jesus, Mary, Elijah, Moses, Enoch, etc.).

I also believe that both the damned and the saved will be resurrected at the Second Coming of Jesus Christ when all of creation is transformed, and at that point in time, the General Judgment will take place. At that Judgment, those who have not been judged (the living) will be judged and the dead (that is, those in hell or in heaven) will be judged anew - that is, the decision at their particular judgment will be reconfirmed.

God bless,

Carson

[ January 30, 2003, 11:05 PM: Message edited by: Carson Weber ]

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by Carson Weber:
Hi 3AngelsMom,

Are you an adherent of the SDA Church?
Carson

Yes, do you know what the fundamental doctrines of the SDA are?

God Bless

 

[neal4christ]

Are you serious?

Absolutely. I am dead serious (pardon the pun). What do those words mean to you?

Neal

 

[Carson Weber]

Hi 3AngelsMom,

You asked, "Yes, do you know what the fundamental doctrines of the SDA are?

Somewhat.

From what I've read, it has its roots in the American preacher, William Miller (early 19th c.), of whom Ellen Gould White was a follower, and she combined the thought of Edson (heavenly sanctuary) and Bates (sabbath worship) to officially start the demonination in 1860 (a strange 1830 years after Christ's ascension.. hmmm).

I do know that several important concepts are:
1. Sabbath worship
2. Immanent Eschatology; the return of Jesus Christ could happen tomorrow, don't get me wrong.. it's just that the focus is more there in SDA congregations
3. A strong Anti-Catholicism; I've found SDA adherents to be the most extremely opposed to the Catholic Church in ways that are frightening
(a) the Catholic Church is the Whore of Babylon
(b) the pope is the Antichrist
(c) in the last days, Sunday worship will be "the mark of the beast"
(d) there is a future millennium in which the devil will roam the earth while Christians are with Christ in heaven
(e) the soul sleeps between death and resurrection
(f) on the last day, after a limited period of punishment in hell, the wicked will be annihilated and cease to exist rather than be eternally damned.
4. As a matter of discipline, one should endorse vegetarianism and avoid worldly entertainment.

God bless,

Carson

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by Carson Weber:
Hi 3AngelsMom,

You asked, "Yes, do you know what the fundamental doctrines of the SDA are?

Somewhat.

From what I've read, it has its roots in the American preacher, William Miller (early 19th c.), of whom Ellen Gould White was a follower, and she combined the thought of Edson (heavenly sanctuary) and Bates (sabbath worship) to officially start the demonination in 1860 (a strange 1830 years after Christ's ascension.. hmmm).

Why is that strange? Is there something significant about that time frame?

I do know that several important concepts are:
1. Sabbath worship
2. Immanent Eschatology; the return of Jesus Christ could happen tomorrow, don't get me wrong.. it's just that the focus is more there in SDA congregations

Those are the 2 things that give us our name: The 7th day Sabbath and our hope of the soon 2nd Advent of Christ. Hence- 7th day Adventist.

3. A strong Anti-Catholicism; I've found SDA adherents to be the most extremely opposed to the Catholic Church in ways that are frightening

I am actually quite suprised to hear you say that. SHAME ON THEM! I can honestly say that the root of their bias is not the leadership but their own hate. It is not taught that we are to be anti-catholic. That is really sad to me that you have encountered that. When I posted my beliefs, notice that I said 'God's people are in every denomination'. That INCLUDES the Catholic faith! There may be problems within the Catholic Church (ever since it's beginnings, there have been scandals of one kind or another), but that does not mean that the PEOPLE that are faithful to God within the church are evil, or any less a Christian than people outside of it. I am truly sorry that you have encountered that kind of attitude. I hope that you can see through these people to the root of their hate, and that it is NOT the Seventh Day Adventist Movement that propigates hate!

(a) the Catholic Church is the Whore of Babylon

Now that is a mix of a lie, along with a truth. We believe that Papal Rome, and the false doctrines that are in it represent the Great Whore. Again this is not a label on the actual people who are in this church, even all the way to the Pope. It is referring to the system of worship that is contrary to the Bible (which I know you don't agree with, and I understand, but it is just opinion, so don't take it too personally). The idea stems from the language in the Bible about the whore. First, a woman in prophecy, is always a church. The symbolic language of Revelation shows us that this church will have a relationship with all the Kings of the earth, and that not only will they be friends, but the religion of this church will permiate into the government of the nations. (i.e. Rome's affects on the whole world, through Papal counsel, and previous rule from Rome).

(b) the pope is the Antichrist

The last time I heard that, was when I was going to a Calvary Chapel! I don't ever recall anyone placing ANY prophecy on the Pope. We don't believe that the antichrist could be just one man. Evident by the presence of antichrist during Johns writing of Revelation. We don't think the Pope is anything other than a leader. I personally think the Pope you have now is a good man, with a good heart, and alot of love for the people.

That doesn't sound like antichrist!

(c) in the last days, Sunday worship will be "the mark of the beast"

That is something that is pure speculation on our part. It's origins are pretty deep. Rome is responsible for changing, legally, the day of worship from Sabbath (Saturday) to Sunday. Since we have identified Rome as the 10 horned beast of Revelation, this 'mark' is not only an identifying point, but it is the antitype of God's true and Holy Sabbath day. We don't know for sure, as I said it is speculation. We THINK it will be either manditory Sunday observance or a law passed to prohibit Sabbath observance (both of those HAVE been laws before). But in the end, no one knows, and we are just throwing the idea around. I think every Christian does that from time to time, don't you think?

(d) there is a future millennium in which the devil will roam the earth while Christians are with Christ in heaven

That is a pretty generalized statement, but it is pretty accurate. We believe that the 'chains of darkness' in the 'abyss' are here on earth after God has destroyed all the wicked with the brightness of His coming. We get this idea from Malachi 4. The Earth is again without form and void. 'An abyss'. Like it was before God separated the land from the water in Creation. This earth, with no one on it but the devil and his angels, will roam, trapped here, for 1000 years without anyone to tempt. While they are here, the saved are in Heaven with God, going through the books, and judging the lost and the fallen angels. I'm sure you have heard of this before, only you have probably always thought it was on earth. (the judgement seat of Christ)

(e) the soul sleeps between death and resurrection

This is a basic concept understood best from Scripture. I posted a list of the verses that show this doctrine in this thread already. Many people have a problem with this idea for a few reasons. 1. They think they are immortal already. 2. They think that they go straight to heaven when they die in spirit form. 3. They think that the 'soul' or 'spirit' (different people think differently on this one) is a separate, conscious being that can be taken out of the body. None of these doctrines are backed 100% by scripture. They may be proven from scripture with one passage, but these doctrines do not agree with the whole of scripture. After weighing the evidence for ALL of these doctrines, we have come to the conclusion that a person dies and sleeps in the grave until the ressurrection. Although, the weightier matters are that a person accepts Jesus as Saviour, and what they think happens after death is really irrelevant in light of the Gospel.

(f)on the last day, after a limited period of punishment in hell, the wicked will be annihilated and cease to exist rather than be eternally damned.

That isn't quite accurate either. We believe that 'hell' is actually the grave, and that all the 'souls' that were sleeping awake in the judgement. The wicked one's that is. They awake to the Great White Throne Judgement. I'm not really sure of the timing but at some point after they are awakened and before they are cast into the lake of fire, they will revolt along with Satan and all his angels, and try to attack the New Jerusalem. Which at that point is ON EARTH now. Then fire will come down out of heaven and devour them. So I am thinking that God will judge them AS SOON as He wakes them, and then in light of God's judgement they will show their true colors and ultimate wickedness and attack the city of God. The fire that devours them is the Lake of Fire. Then it says He will cast the devil and all the demons in there as well. At that point it says 'where the beast and false prophet ARE' meaning that they were part of the people who were attacking. Then the fires will burn until all is consumed. For an 'eon' the Bible says. And that IS a limited amount of time. NOT all of eternity. The old earth will be totally destroyed. 'passed away'. Then God will create a New Heaven and Earth and be TRULY able to wipe away every tear, and proclaim that there will be NO pain, NO sorrow, NO tears. It really is a very happy, just, hopeful thought. But either way, what we believe about the Lake of Fire, and what you believe about the Lake of Fire is really irrelivant to our Salvation.

4. As a matter of discipline, one should endorse vegetarianism and avoid worldly entertainment.

Actually there are quite a few people at my church alone that are not veggies. I myself and my family are vegan, but only because my kids and I are really lactose intolerant, and we were already vegetarian before that. My parents were hippies. I never have liked meat. The SDA message of health, is based on two things, the levitical laws of clean/unclean, and the writings of Ellen White in regards to diet. Again, this doctrine is not a 'you need this for salvation' doctrine. It is to help you have a happier, healthier, LONGER life. The way I see it, is this, God made my body. He knows what it needs. He told Adam and Eve that He made every plant and tree that bore fruit for their 'meat'. He then later authorized the eating of flesh (most likely after the flood, because they took 7 of the clean animals in with them, as opposed to the 2 of each unclean ones). But at no point did God every say that the unclean animal was ok to eat. The reason I said it that way was intentional. Is it a sin to eat pig? I think so. But for you, and anyone else here who doesn't think so, according to Paul, you should respect my choice and I should respect yours.

Some people don't eat fish on friday.

I don't begrudge them their preference. I only care that they have Jesus as their Saviour. As far as the worldly entertainments are concerned. We make it a habit to abstain from all appearance of evil. What you look at and what you hear has an effect on your mind and your conscience. Most people wear their consciences pretty thin with the garbage that they read, listen to and watch. They become so familiar with sin that they fail to see it's enormity. Because by beholding we become changed. There are specific references in some of Ellen's writings referring to theaters and such, but that is not referring to the modern cinemaplex's we have. The theaters back then were live shows, usually with scantily clad women dancing around. I think there is also mention of dancing, and just think of what the dancing was like then..... if it was wrong then, what do you think God would think of it now? It is pretty bad now a days. Looks like people are having sex with their clothes on. I don't think God would like that very much.

The whole idea with living a Spirit led life, involves our submission to God and His Holy Law. Like I said before, if you are breaking the letter of the Law you cannot be keeping the Spirit of the Law. This is not contingent upon Salvation. But if someone is sinning willfully over and over and over, with no remorse or intention of repentance, they take the chance of grieving the Holy Spirit. The Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, is the refusal to obey the Holy Spirit. The faithful can't 'lose' their salvation because they had a bad day and said a cuss word to one of their kids. It would take a consistent willful expression of rebellion to God to blaspheme the Holy Spirit.

We live in such a way, that it could never come to that. If you allow the Holy Spirit to control your life, it will lead you into paths of righteousness.
Now on the flip side, living righteously doesn't mean you are Spirit led. Anyone can keep some rules, and be nice. But a truly Spirit led person, finds it a joy to live in obedience to Christ, and His commandments are not burdensom.

Hope that helped.

God bless

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by neal4christ:
3AngelsMom,

What does it mean in the Bible when it says a husband 'knew' his wife? Or that he 'lay' with his wife?

Neal

Sex

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:

You are wrong. Demonstrably wrong. I am tired of trying to talk to you because I posted the Bible, and you are trying to rationalize why these passages aren't the 'viewpoint of God'.

Ecclesiates is the Word of God, but they are not necessarily the "words" of God, rather they are the words of Solomon. There is a big difference. You must take everything in its context. Not everything in the Bible are the "words" of God. For example: Did God say this:
"and showeth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me." (Mat.4:8,9)?
It is the Word of God, but not the words of God; see the difference. The same is true in Ecclesiates.

Synonym-A word having the same or nearly the same meaning as another word or other words in a language. Let's see, figurative-Based on or making use of figures of speech; metaphorical. It can't be both.

Perhaps you could study English more.

So? It says they are asleep--meaning dead. I have no problem with that, and I don't think any one else does either. It doesn't prove soul sleep.

Here is where you start to dance. It says they are asleep, but oh no, that couln't mean soul sleep. Even though MEN are living souls. Well when they aren't living anymore, they are DEAD SOULS. Since 'dead' and 'sleep' are synonyms. They are sleeping souls.

You have a funny way of defining "soul." Words have meanings. Many words, in fact most words have more than one meaning, and that is where one of your problems lie. Take for example the English word "church." How many definitions can you think of for that one word? I can probably come up with half a dozen. One important verse you need to study is 1Thes.5:23,

23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
--Why does Paul mention body, soul, and spirit? What is the difference between all three? The word "soul" is used in different ways in the Bible. But generally speaking the soul refers to the mind, emotions, intellect. And, yes that does die with the body at the point of death, and awaits the resurrection. It is the spirit of the body that lives forever. This is not the Holy Spirit, but man's spirit. It is the part of man that is different than that of animals. It enables man to communicate with God. This spirit at death will either go to Heaven or to Hell. It will NEVER die.
BTW, The verses in John 11 or in 1Thes.4 do not use the word "soul."

That is right. The dead were called asleep because "asleep," as we have seen sometimes means dead. That still does not prove soul sleep.

And you dance some more. 'asleep means dead' but it doesn't prove souls sleep. hmmm. Are you not a soul?

No, I am soul, spirit, and body. And at death my spirit will go to Heaven, my body will die along with my brain--the center of the soul (intellect, emotions, will, etc.)

YOUR 'SOUL (mind emotions, ie brain) will cease to function' will they 'be asleep'????

HELLO!

Hello again. Do you mean wake up? I hope you do to this very important truth. Do I mean soul sleep? Absolutely not! I mean my spirit will be with the Lord, when my spirit is absent from the body, as the Bible teaches in 2Cor.5:8. That which is commonly referred to as the soul (emotions, intellect, will, etc.) will DIE, along with the rest of my body. It will not sleep in the sense that you define it; it will die--be without life completely--not just in an unconscious state, but without any life at all.

But on that Resurrection Day, He will cause those bodies to come alive. Spirit and body will once again be joined together in a glorified body. You don't have worry how he is going to do that miracle; just believe in faith that he will accomplish it.

REINSERTION!!! Yeah!

You have a made-up false doctrine here, unheard of for over 1800 years. Why do you think it would be right now?
When Christ comes the dead in Christ shall rise first, then we which are alive will be caught up together to be with the Lord. This is the first resurrection. There is no hint of any such reinsertion--something that you are making up. God will raise the dead. Either you beleive it or you do not. I assume since I affirm that I beiieve in the resurrection, and you do not believe that I do, then you must believe in something else which is not a resurrection at all.

There is no such thing as a resurrection without a body. ALL WILL BE RESURRECTED! Now that is just what you said. If the body is not resurrected what is?

Who said the body is not resurrected? Not me!

Everytime resurrection is spoken of in the Bible it speaks of the body.

DUH

I have emphasized the body being resurrected because it will be resurrected at the resurrection of the unjust as well as the resurrection of the just. That means the wicked will have a body when they stand before the Great White Throne Judgement in Revelation 20:11-15. It means that the body they have will be a glorified or changed body of sorts, for some change will have to take place for all those who have been cremated and thrown over seas, etc. to have a body and stand before God, in judgement before God. They will have a body that will be able to endure the torments of the Lake of fire forever and ever (Rev.20:10-15).
DHK

 

[DHK]

There is no such thing as a "spirit-resurrection," as the J.W.s try to teach.

Well go take it up with them, because I have NEVER said that there is a 'spirit' resurrection. The closest thing to that being said is YOUR belief of your 'spirit' being disembodied and going to heaven.

Good, then you will agree, that when the wicked stand in judgement before the great White Throne, they will stand as complete: body, soul, and spirit, and be judged.

No, this only describes how God created man, and how man differs in essence from animals. This does not add to your argument of soul sleep. You have yet to prove anything yet.

This isn't intended to prove soul sleep, this is intended to show that you are dust and breath. Try reading the whole thing together. It is pointing to the next verse.

You err so greatly here. Man is not just dust and breath. He is body, soul, and spirit.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV)
7Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
dust-spirit= DUST!

It is a verse from Ecclesiates, thoroughly explained in a post above. To be absent from the body (the body turns to dust) is to be present with the Lord ("the spirit returns unto God"). The two verses teach the same thing don't they. What they don't teach is soul sleep.

There you go again CHANGING God's Word! It does NOT say 'to be absent IS to be present'!!!!!! Get it straight! Your explination is the biggest load of crud I have seen in a long time. The book of Eccl. was written by the man that God noted as the WISEST man in the world. I think that if GOD inspired him to write that, IT IS GOD SAYING IT!

Well! That really hit a nerve did it? 2Cor.5:8 remains true; it remains the Word of God whether you agree with its teaching or not. However if you do not like it there are many others that teach the same doctrine that you so despise:

Phil.1:23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
Paul is ready to die (depart from this earth), and to be with Christ, which is far better, he says. It is the same teaching. To depart (from this earth) is to be with the Lord. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. The body returns to dust, and the spirit returns to God. We depart from the earth to be with Christ. There is no resurrection here. The body goes to the grave; the spirit goes to Heaven. But beware, that happens only if your saved.

So? He identified himself as a saved person. I imagine he was. I have the Spirit of God in me too.

So we dance again. The Spirit that is in HIS NOSTRILS. You have the Holy Spirit in your nose and that is what saves you? hmmm. There is more than one Spirit. All of it is from God.

Whether the Holy Spirit be in my nostrils, my bowels, my heart, or whatever--He dwells in me--all of me. He controls my life, as I submit to Him. The Holy Spirit is omnipresent. I am sure that if you ask others on this board such as Briguy, Clint, Bro. Curtis, Laterei, Lorelei, Sherrie, Jim1996, and a number of others, they all can testify that the Holy Spirit abides in each one of them though there be only one Holy Spirit. Is there anything too hard for God?

Psalm 146:3 (KJV)
3Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.
4His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

When the breath leaves, his body returns to the earth and IN THAT VERY DAY, his thoughts perish. NO CONSCIOUSNESS.

There is much poetry in the Psalms, and thus figurative speech. The psalmist here describes the death of an unsaved man: a prince, he says, of whom not to trust. When he dies: he expires, his body returns to the ground (becomes dust), and he ceases to think. Most people do when they die. Have you ever tried speaking to a corpse at a funeral? They don't answer back.

'And we can dance, dance, dance, dance, watch me get down' If his 'ghost' went to heaven are they NOT thinking there?

My you gave such an eloquent, logical rebuttal to the above explanation of Psalm 146:3.
DHK

 

[3AngelsMom]

My you gave such an eloquent, logical rebuttal to the above explanation of Psalm 146:3.
DHK

Thank You!! I thought so too. I figured since you were going to dismiss the 'Word of God' as NOT the 'Words of God', then I could dismiss everything you said as 'babbling'. I do believe you are reminding me of someone again.

'Thou shalt NOT surely die'.....

Good Bye.

 

[neal4christ]

3AngelsMom, what do you make of it in Genesis 3 when the literal translation from the Hebrew is "dying you shall die"?

Neal