Church of Christ

Understand that salvation is all of God. Salvation is pretty cheap when man can say that he has a part in it. His blood atones for my sin. I would hate to think that water could pay part of the price that Christ paid on the cross for me. Is that really what you teach? When the people said to Christ, "What must we do to work the works of God?" Christ replied, "This is the work of God that ye believe on him who hath sent me." He was teaching faith alone. He was not teaching that faith is a work, per se. He was teaching that in order to have salvation you must have faith. In this you must compare Scripture with Scripture, for the Bible does not contradict itself.

Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
Rom.10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom.10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom.10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
1John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Grace DOES rule out law. We are under grace, not under the law. Furthermore, grace is not something you do. Grace is God's free unmerited favor. "For by grace are ye saved," yes--but that is God's grace, not yours. "For by (God's) grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast." One is saved through faith and not of works. That is what the Bible says. If you don't believe that then your argument is with God not with me.

Rom.3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Rom.3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Gal.3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Gal.3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
---Grace and law are mutually exclusive. If you are going to keep the law, then keep all of it. That is what Paul teaches in Gal.3:10. "Cursed is everyone that continues not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them." If you do not continue in every single thing that is written in the law, every day of your life, then you are cursed. If you but break one law, sin but one time, then you are cursed. That is the law. We are cursed under the law, thus Christ became a curse for us.

Gal.3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
---Baptism wouldn't work. But Christ's sacrifice on the cross did. Don't cheapen salvation by saying that you helped out God by being baptized. Jesus paid it all. There's no works involved. Salvation is by faith alone.
DHK

 

DHK:
You failed to answer any of the arguements I posted last time. I expected that. But, I will respond to your errors item by item. ERROR 1. THERE IS NO LAW IN THE NEW TESTAMENT.
The Bible says we are under the law of Christ.( I Cor.9:21). It is the perfect law of liberty.(James 1:25).. It is also the law of faith. (Romans 3:21). The Law (The New Testament) is the spirit of the life in Christ.( Romans 8:1,2), tHhis law hath made me free from the law of sin and death.(Old Law). It is the law of Christ and should be fulfilled.( Gal.6:2). Without law, there would be no SIN!( IJn. 3:4, Romans 7:7). Law is good when mne use it for good,(Romans 7:12, I Tim.1:8). Again, you espouse that which you cannot find in the New Testament.
ERROR 2. SIMPLY TWISITNG THE SCRIPTURE.Peter said people would do that, too! ( IIPet.3:16). John 6:28,29 teach there are works of God men MUST DO . The Greek word DEI which means a DIVINE IMPERATIVE.It says ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ABOUT FAITH ONLY! YOU ARE TWISTING!
ERROR 3.LEAVING THE JAILHOUSE TO SOON. FAILURE TO STUDY THE TOTALITY OF THE INFORMATION AVAILABLE AND NOT CONSIDERING CONTEXT.
1.The jailer became a Christian. How? This is where you left the jailhouse to soon. Because you did not read the entire context and used one scripture,you have asserted by faith only. However, in verse 32,they spake the word. In verse 33, He was baptized; because faith cometh by hearing, vs. 32, and hearing by the word of God. He obeyed that form of doctrine delivered him and became the servant of righteousness. ( Romans 6:17,18). The form delivered him required an obedient active faith which included baptism. You just left the jailhouse to soon.
The rest of the scriptures you quote are a part of what a man must do but, it is not all! I have already said it requires belief,repentance and confession, and knowledge of the truth to be saved.I accept those just like I do the same inspired scriptures that were breathed out by God that commands us to be baptized for unto the remission of sins. It is the sum TOTAL of thy words that are truth.( Psalms 119:160, Acts 20:27).
Grace does not rule out conditions,nor law. If grace rules out law, ther is no SIN!. God in every dispensation of time has required ALL men to have an active working faith to receive his grace that brings salvation. Noah moved with fear, and prepared an ark to the saving of his house.( Hebrews 11:7). Noah was saved by the grace of God.(Gen.6:7). His family was saved when Noah did what God said,the way God said to do it and when God said to do it. The Bible says this of the righteous Noah in Gen. 6:22, " Thus did Noah according to ALL GOD that COMMANDED HIM so DID HE."
DHK according to your false doctrine, Noah would have sat there and said God will save me from the flood .I do not have to do any thing or I will be meriting God's salvation. I tell you what,had he not obeyed God you would have heard this from Noah as it began to rain. "H-E-L-P!!. Blub! Blub!
Have a good day.
Frank

 

This is the page 9 warning folks. We'll close the topic at page 10.

Clint Kritzer
Moderator

 

Frank,
I didn't answer your entire post because it would have been too long. But I will try to answer a good part of this one. First, lets start with one of the Scriptures that you quoted:

2Pet.3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
---This you have done and demonstrated quite ably in your post.

"The Bible says we are under the law of Christ.( I Cor.9:21). It is the perfect law of liberty.(James 1:25).. It is also the law of faith. (Romans 3:21)."
---The Bible says nothing of the kind. Such a perversion of Scripture! Look at the Scripture in its context:
1Cor.9:20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
---Paul went to the Gentiles ("those without the law") and adopted to their culture (as one without the law), that he might gain them that are without the law, that is win them to Christ. It in no way says that we are under the law. That is a complete misrepresentation of Scripture, and a pulling of Scripture out of its context: typical of a cult, and one who "is unlearned and unstable wrest the Scriptures to their own destruction."

"It is the perfect law of liberty." What? The Old Testament law! You have got to be kidding! This is referring to the Word of God in general.
It is a phrase that refers back to verse 23. Take everything in its context. What does verse 23 say?
23 For if any be a hearer of the WORD, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:

"It is also the law of faith (Rom.3:21).
Rom.3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
---This is Rom.3:21. It plainly tells that righteousness of God is without the faith. What is your point?

Your second sentence:
"The Law (The New Testament) is the spirit of the life in Christ.( Romans 8:1,2), tHhis law hath made me free from the law of sin and death.(Old Law). It is the law of Christ and should be fulfilled.( Gal.6:2)."
Rom.8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
---The law of the Spirit of life in Christ in verse two in Christ living in me. It is not the Word of God. It is not the law written down. Look at verse 9. Remember take everything in its context.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
---If you don't have the Spirit of God in you (the law of the Spirit of life in Christ) you do not belong to Christ.
Yes, he does compare it to the old law, which does bring sin and death.

"It is the law of Christ and should be fulfilled.( Gal.6:2)."
Gal.6:2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.
---Again you equate this law with Old Testament law. This is another perversion. The law of Christ was love. All of the disciples knew this:

John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

"Without law, there would be no SIN!( IJn. 3:4, Romans 7:7)."
---This is true. But it does not place me under the law.

"Law is good when mne use it for good,(Romans 7:12, I Tim.1:8). Again, you espouse that which you cannot find in the New Testament."
Context Frank, context. Look at Romans 7:10-13
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
---The same law which you say is good, Paul said in verse 10, "I found to be unto death."

This is a good passage Frank. You really condemn yourself with this one, by not looking at its context. 1Tim.1:8-10
8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
---The law is good, as you say. It is good for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers, and murderers of mothers, for manslayers. This is who the law is good for. The is good for you, Frank? This is what you are saying?
It plainly says here "that the law is not made for a righteous man," thus your point must be that you are unrighteous.
That is your first paragraph. Every Scripture but one is quoted out of context. You have perverted them all to try and prove your own perverse theology. Salvation is all of God. Man has no part in it, and that includes baptism.
DHK

[ May 11, 2002, 02:15 PM: Message edited by: DHK ]

 

DHK:
The law of Christ is a written law. Jesus himself appealed to that which is written.(Hebrews 10:7). We would not know what to do or not to do if it were not expressed in words.(Ps.119:34,44,48,77, 97, 136,142,172, 50,65-67,107, 103).
Humans communicate with words. Words have meaning and they form law. MAN HAS ALWAYS HAD LAW.( Gen. 2:17, Exodus 20: 1-16, James 1:25). The New Testament is the perfect law of Liberty, It is not a system of law like the old law, but it is a system of faith. And this system of faith has commandments to be kept.( Rev.1:3, Romans 2:13-16).
Law is good if men keep it.If not,it is sin. (I Jn. 3:4).IF THERE IS NO LAW THERE IS NO SIN. ( Romans 7:7-9). Do men still sin? If so, by what standard do we use to discern good and evil, since you say we are under no law? Again ,this is absurd.
Finally, You should study the scriptures posted. There is a contrast between the Old Law and the New. Paul is making the case for the New Testament Law. The Old one was taken out of the way. It was abolished.( COl. 2:14, Eph.2:15,Hebs.8:13). It was not to be used as a means for justification. Men simply could not keep the old law. ( Hebrews 8:8). The Old law was designed to bring us to Christ.( Gal. 3:24-29).
Men are now under the authority of Christ and his law. ( Mat. 28:18-20,I Cor. 9:21).
I follow the law of the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords. I am a Christian under the command of Christ. I am to do his will as expressed in the New Testament. It is his word that will judge us in the last day.( Jn. 12:48, Titus 2:12,13). I am a blood bought member of the church that belongs to Christ.( I Cor. 6:20, Eph.1:7, Col. 1:18, Eph. 1:22,23). I am a member of the his kingdom of which you may read in the New Testament.( Col. 1:12,13).
I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ for it is THE POWER of God unto salvation to everyone that believeth to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For therein IS THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD revealed from faith unto faith for it is written the just shall live by faith.( Romans 1:16,17). For we are all the children of God by faith IN Christ Jesus. For as many OF US AS HAVE BEEN BAPTIZED INTO CHRIST HAVE PUT ON CHRIST. There is neither Jew nor Greek neither bond nor free neither male not female ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's then are ye Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise.( Gal. 3:26-29). He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved but he that believethnot shall be damned.( Mk.16:16). Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture and preached unto him Jesus.And as they went on their way, they came to a certain water: and the eunoch said, see here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thy heart thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down into the water both Philip and the Eunoch; and he baptized him. And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit caught away Philip,that the Eunoch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing. ( Acts 8:35-39). And now why tarriest thou arise and be baptized and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord. ( Acts 22:16). And with many other words did he testify and exhort saying save yourselves from this untoward generation.( Acts 2:40). Then they that glady received the word were baptized: and the same day there were added unot them about three thousand souls. Praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved. ( Acts 2:40,41,47). No matter how many times people deny that water baptism is for unto the remission of sins, the Bible will still say it is for the forgiveness of sins to all men who have not obeyed the command.( Acts 2:38, I Pet 3:20,21, Eph.5:26, Rev.1:5, Acts 22:16, MK. 16:16, Acts 10: 48, II Tim. 2:10).
Frank

 

Frank,
Let us assume that the law of Christ is the Word of God or more specifically the New Testament, as you suggest. Man has always had a law, it is true. And where there is no law, there is no sin. However, let us not confuse the issue. I did not say that we are not under any law. I said, as the Scripture says, that we are not under "the law," which refers to the Mosaic Law. I think we can agree on that. "Men are now under the authority of Christ and His law." Agreed, assuming you are talking about Christians and that the law refers primarily to the New Testament.

"I am a blood bought member of the church that belongs to Christ."
---But why not just say you are a blood bought Christian? My belief in the local church is very strong. But my salvation is based on the blood of Jesus Christ. There is nothing that can add to what Christ did on the cross. Suppose I trust the shed blood of Christ, and receive Him as my Saviour, but never am baptized or join a church, will I still go to Heaven? Must I be baptized in order to go to Heaven, Frank, or is the blood of Christ sufficient?

Did the Ethiopian eunuch believe before he was baptized or after? Was salvation granted to him before he was baptized or after? Salvation came before. Baptism was simply obedience.
In Acts 2, "they that gladly received his word were baptized." Receiving the Word was receiving salvation. Baptism was simply a step of obedience afterward.

Again the problem here is twofold. One, the Bible does not teach Baptismal regeneration, as you claim it does. Secondly, to say that baptism is necessary for salvation is to take away from the work of Christ. How can you say that the blood is sufficient enough to save you when you say you need to be baptized in order to be saved? Christ's blood + baptism + other works = salvation. Is that the right equation? Or rather does the Bible teach faith in the blood of Christ gives salvation?
DHK

 

DHK
The Eunoch was reading Isaiah 53. In this chapter, Jesus is refered to a lamb.( Vs.7). This lamb was salughtered.( IPeter 1:18,19,John. 1:29).
Christ as the lamb shed his blood for the soins of man.( Mk. 14:24).Philip preached unto the eunoch Jesus.( Acts 8:35). After understanding the scriptures( Acts 8:30,31-35), He made his statement of confession and was baptized. WHY? One must be washed in the blood of the lamb to be saved.( Jn. 1:29, Rev.1:5).
Water Baptism represents man being washed in the blood of the lamb.(Rev.1:5, Eph.5:26, Acts 22:16). The law requires blood for sins.( Hebrews 9:22). The Bible connects the blood with baptism. It for the remission of sins.( Acts 2:38). Why? Because it is the divine command of Christ and represents us having his blood sacrifice to settle our debt of sin. A debt that we could not pay.( Romans 5:6-10).
Can one be saved without being washed in the blood?( Rev.1:5, IPet. 1:18, Acts 22:16, Eph. 5:26).
Can one be saved without repentance?( Acts 2:38,Lk. 13:3).
Can one be saved by grace without faith?( Eph.2:8,9, Gal. 3:26,27).
Can one be saved without obeying a command? ( Acts 10:48).If so, which command can he ignore? And how do we know?
Can one be saved without being In Christ?( IITim. 2:10, Gal. 3:26,27).
I have simply affirmed that baptism is just ONE essential part of answering," What must I Do To Be Saved?"( Acts 16:30, Acts 2:37, Acts 9:6). My faith is placed in the grace of God and the redemption that is in Chtrist Jesus.( II Tim. 2:10). I have faith In his sacrifice.( Eph. 3:11,12). Therefore, I am willing tosubmit to all Christ's commands me. I am a servant and am to do all the master requires.( Romans 1:1,Romans 6:17,18).
Finally, Water Baptism is for unto the remission of sins.I have presented irrefutable proof to the rational mind that this is true. Again, assertions and human logic will not make the word change to read as you would desire.
There were only two baptisms in the Bible. There is only one that saves.(I Pet.3:20,21, Gal. 3:26,27). It will read that way on the day of judgement,too.
Some men accept it, others reject it to their own damnation. Jesus said what he meant and meant what he said in Mk. 16:16. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved but he that believeth not shall be damned." He came and spake unto them saying all authority hath been given unto me in heaven and earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the fahter and of the Son and of The Holy Spirit: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you and, lo, I am with you always even unot the end of the world." Mat. 28:18-20).
Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to all them that do not do anything? NO, Jesus is the author of eternal salvation by the direct operation of the Holy Spirit? No, He is the author of eternal salvation to ALL them that OBEY HIM.( Hebrews 5:8,9). And Jesus said to be baptized to be saved in Mark 16 and the verse 16. He commanded this by the authority of heaven and God himself.(Col. 2:12).
Frank

 

So in effect what you are saying here is that when Jesus said in John 19:30 "It is finished," He really didn't mean it." The work of salvation wasn't complete then; he didn't atone for sins then, because baptism and the other commands of Christ had to be added as well. His blood wasn't sufficient. Is that right?
DHK

 

DHK:
The work of Christ his life and death ended with his death on the cross. He had completed the work God had given him and he willfully submitted to doing.( Phil. 2:6-9). Salvationis a gracious gift of God.( Eph. 2:8,9). It is the cross and theblood shed thta makes it posiboe ofr allmen to be saved,( ITim. 2:4,5, IJn. 2:2). However, all men are not saved. Why?
All men will not submit to that which is required to receive the gift of salvation. They will not follow Christ's example.( Hebs. 5:8).
All men will not obey the gospel. (Roms.1:16). All men have not faith.( Hebrews 11:6). Some refuse to receive the gift. ( John 5:39).
Frank

 

BPM:
Men are not saved before baptism.( Romans 6:3-5, Mk. 16:16, Mat. 28:18-20). Disciples are made by the authority of Christ. Jesus said,He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved but he that believeth not shall be damned. I have baptized a few myself as directed by the Holt Spirit by the command of Christ for unto the remission of sins. ( Acts 2:38). There is a difference between baptism for the remission of sins and getting wet.
I am not surprised though, as NO Baptist preacher has ever done as Paul did in Acts 16:33 Baptized a believing penitent person for unto the remission of sins the same HOUR of the night. ( Acts 2:38).It is certainly not a laughable or cute matter to me. All God's commandments are righteousness.( Psalms 119:172).
Frank

 

What does a person have to submit to receive a gift? If submission is required then it is not a gift. If I tell my child I have a gift for you but first you must do: #1, #2, and #,3 then is it a gift? Hardly! You do not work for a gift. The gift of God is eternal life (Rom.6:23). All that I need to do is receive it--by faith. If I have to work for it, then it is no longer a gift. Baptism is a work. It is something that man does. Eternal life is God's gift to man, that God, because of his grace to us, freely give us. Like a child receiving a gift from his parent, I receive the gift of eternal life from God, by faith alone. Nothing else is required.
I was saved when I was 20. I was baptized when I was 22. According to your theology what would have happened to me if I had died when I was 21?
DHK

 

DHK:
Men may refuse to accept any gift. I was given a pair of bedroom slippers for Christmas a while back. I did not want them nor did I like them. I refused the gift. It was not received. God has offered a free gift of salvation, but men must receive the gift. The conditions by which the gift may be received are the ones Christ has set forth. Jesus said men must believe the gospel.(Mk. 1:15). It is the power to save.( Romans 1:16).Jesus also said men must believe on him.( JN.8:24). Men must repent.( Lk 13:3). Men must confess.( Mat. 10:32). Men must be baptized.( Mk. 16:16). Jesus is the AUTHOR of eternal salvation to all them that OBEY HIM. This is what I preach because Jesus said to teach it.( Mat. 28:18-20). I have no authority to teach anyhting else or to go passed what is written.(I Cor. 4:6, Col. 3:17).
Finally, when asked the question of What Must I Do To Be Saved? I repond as Jesus responded. I have posted what he said.( Mk. 1:15, Jn.8:24, Lk.13:3,Mat.10:32,Mk.16:16). I would say to follow the example of those on Pentecost. ( Acts 2:38-40,47). I would answer to be clean by the blood of the lamb of God. I would read Isaiah 53 and Acts 8.
Grace does no out conditions. For example, he that believeth and is baptized shall receive a NEW MERCEDES. I would be overwhelmed by the response. People would be saying, "I Believe". I would say," do the next part the coordinating conjunction AND be baptized to receive a Mercedes."Some would say, "I do not want the Mercedes because I have to be immersed." The illustration makes clear the conditions. They are Belief and Baptism. Some men will, and some men won't. Some will be saved, and some will not. Jesus said this,too. In Jn. 5:39, Jesus said," ye search the scriptures because in them ye think ye have eternal life and they are they which testify of me. But ye will not come to me that ye may have life."
Frank

 

Saved from what? The final judgement doesn't come until we die.

I would say, just as James says, the action was the perfection of the boy's belief. By our fruits we are known. The race isn't over yet.

 

Tuor:
Men must be saved from sin.( Roamns 6:23). If one has not been washed in the blood of the lamb, he is still in his sins.( Rev.1:5, Eph.5:26, Acts 22:16). Death is certain. ( Hebrews 9:27). Life is certain.( James 4:14). There is an old adddage that says the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Now is the only accepted time to obey and be saved.( IICor.6:2).
Frank

 

Wow! A Once saved always saved Church of Christ member!!!!

 

Tuor:
I did not imply once saved always saved. The Bible simply teaches that a penitient believing person must be baptized to be forgiven of sins.( Acts 2:38). In order to be saved in Heaven, He must be faithful( Rev. 2:10). I hope this clears up the misunderstanding. One may be saved and be unfaithful and be losted on the day of Judgement. ( Mat.25:46).
Frank

 

Nils and Frank, you guys would make good Catholics

--Brian