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The Church of Christ
- Thread starter andy
- Start date
eschatologist
New Member
andy
You started this thread concerning Church of Christ doctrine and its association with baptism. The reason it has become heavy into baptism is that, just as you have said, baptism is an integral part of the Church of Christ belief. I know because I am a member of that church.
Also you are mistaken in your quoting that the Church of Christ is a denomination. It is not a denomination in the classical sense of the definition. Webster's states:
denomination- 3) a religious group, usually including many local churches.
Since each Church of Christ is a totally independent organization and not tied to or affiliated to any other of the local Churches of Christ(i.e.in their church organization and leadership) it does not fit this definition. The local and regional churches do come together in times of need or with bible camps, etc. but they are independently led and financed.
And yes baptism is an important and essential element in our belief. The Hebrew writer said that Jesus is the author of salvation to all who obey(Heb.5:9). So transversely you can also say He is not your author to salvation if you do not obey. This is part of what baptism is all about-- obedience. Just as your are told to believe, repent and confess for forgiveness of sins(salvation), likewise you are commanded to be baptized.
So the real question should be asked: If you knowingly disobey the Lord will you be saved.
You started this thread concerning Church of Christ doctrine and its association with baptism. The reason it has become heavy into baptism is that, just as you have said, baptism is an integral part of the Church of Christ belief. I know because I am a member of that church.
Also you are mistaken in your quoting that the Church of Christ is a denomination. It is not a denomination in the classical sense of the definition. Webster's states:
denomination- 3) a religious group, usually including many local churches.
Since each Church of Christ is a totally independent organization and not tied to or affiliated to any other of the local Churches of Christ(i.e.in their church organization and leadership) it does not fit this definition. The local and regional churches do come together in times of need or with bible camps, etc. but they are independently led and financed.
And yes baptism is an important and essential element in our belief. The Hebrew writer said that Jesus is the author of salvation to all who obey(Heb.5:9). So transversely you can also say He is not your author to salvation if you do not obey. This is part of what baptism is all about-- obedience. Just as your are told to believe, repent and confess for forgiveness of sins(salvation), likewise you are commanded to be baptized.
So the real question should be asked: If you knowingly disobey the Lord will you be saved.
If you realize this much, then why not stick to the topic at hand.
No, as you stated above this is not the real question. This is not what andy was asking about. If you want to argue about baptismal regeneration ( a well known heresy) then start another thread. Here again is Andy's quote. Please read it carefully.
Harley4Him
New Member
This isn't even true, is it?
Harley4Him
New Member
You are way more intimate with their catechism than me. But the catholics who post here keep saying over and over that all sort of non-catholic folks can be saved. You keep misquoting them and twisting what they say, so I just assumed that you were making stuff up just in this thread too.
I notice that you neglected to post something that actually proves that what you are saying is true. Instead, it's just the same old game of twister ... left foot red, turn off your head.
eschatologist
New Member
DHK
I answered andy's question by stating that the Church of Christ does tie baptism to salvation. And also I added a little more info concerning the Church of Christ in case people needed to know. I tried to give some scripture to prove my argument, yet you seem to continually interrupt with words like "heresy" and such but offer no scriptural reference for your claims. I can sense your harshness and resentment in your posts which tells me you are driven by emotion rather than sound biblical study. You should opt for the latter. None the less, what I say here is in brotherly love. Go with God.
I answered andy's question by stating that the Church of Christ does tie baptism to salvation. And also I added a little more info concerning the Church of Christ in case people needed to know. I tried to give some scripture to prove my argument, yet you seem to continually interrupt with words like "heresy" and such but offer no scriptural reference for your claims. I can sense your harshness and resentment in your posts which tells me you are driven by emotion rather than sound biblical study. You should opt for the latter. None the less, what I say here is in brotherly love. Go with God.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
In the "details" of my post above - I state that they do allow non-Catholics into heaven - but NOT by the New Covenant. (And as all non-Catholics know - the New Covenant is the only Covenant God has made with man for that points to forgiveness and heaven)
Fine "attack" - can you quote me actually doing that? Or are you still looking for something that will hold up?
That is an interesting game you play...
As for my own quotes --
Harley4Him
New Member
Which means what? That you are claiming that Catholics teach that only Catholics can go to heaven.
According to Bob: The New Covenant is the only covenant that points to heaven; Catholics teach that only Catholics go to heaven under the New Covenant ... therefore they teach that only Catholics go to heaven.
But no matter how many times or how many ways you try to put those words into the cathechism, it's all lies. And all your hundred line posts, four or five in a row sometimes, don't change the fact that it's a lie.
Previously posted on a former thread:
The Rules & Pattern of the Church of Christ
1 It must be noted immediately that this list is not to be construed as a written creed. No statement of beliefs or rules outside the Bible itself is permitted. However, it will be permitted that such lists of beliefs or rules shall be allowed if written in a church bulletin or other published material provided that such is clearly designated as not being a written creed. This list is here shared merely as a convenience and with the understanding that there is really no need for such since all these rules are to be found in a clear and unmistakable form scattered throughout the pages of the collected books of the New Testament. It is also to be believed that anyone who truly loves God and the truth will easily find these exact rules and consequently obey.
2 By Scriptural definition (and for the purpose of applying these rules), a Christian is one who has done the following five acts of salvation (and in this order): hear, believe, repent, confess (a “Yes” response to the question “Do you believe that Jesus is the Son of God?” shall be construed as a valid confession), and be baptized. Of the several purposes and benefits of baptism, one must know that baptism is “for the remission of sins” in order for God to consider it a valid baptism.
3 A person who has completed the above five acts of salvation, but who comes to doubt the validity of their baptism (perhaps later thinking that he/she did not fully understand the primary purpose), shall be baptized again. One of the following scenarios must be adopted: 1) that the entire previous life of the person in question shall be considered as one outside of Christ and separated from God, thus only now becoming a new child of God; or, 2) that the person in question is being rebaptized “just in case”. In this instance, it shall be assumed that the person is doing so with the knowledge that baptism is generally “for the remission of sins”, even though he/she has may not be sure if such cleansing is really needed. Regardless, any rebaptism shall be preceded with the standard ritual of confession (one’s previous life as an apparent believing Christian shall not suffice as meeting this requirement).
4 The Bible shall be considered as the standard of authority for every spiritual matter. It shall be interpreted using the approved method of “command, example, and necessary inference”. Silence of the Scriptures on any matter is to be construed as a forbiddance of such. However, this rule shall not be applied to matters considered to be helpful in obeying any other commands (such as church buildings and their necessary furnishings, etc.).
5 Congregations shall name themselves according to the following guidelines: 1) the name shall be one that is found in Scripture and has within it the name of God or Christ (it shall be permitted that Paul’s use of the term “churches of Christ” in referring to various congregations may be used as a formal name and amended to “Church of Christ”); and, 2) the name may be preceded with a location description, that being the location of the church building, not necessarily the location of the church itself.
6 All those congregations who use the same generic name (excluding the location part of the name) and uniformly subscribe to these rules shall be considered as “the brotherhood”; no other Christian (one who has believed and been baptized but does not subscribe to one or more of these rules) shall be considered as being a part of “the brotherhood”.
7 Individual members of the church may be called by several different names that are found in Scripture (“disciples”, “saints”, “children of God”), but “Christian” is the preferred designation.
8 The church shall gather every first day of the week for worship. (Note: Most calendars have Sunday as the first day of the week. Cultures whose calendars are different will have to decide whether to observe Sunday or their first day of the week; no further help here is given in making that decision.)
9 The worship service shall consist of the following five acts of worship: praying, singing, giving, partaking of the Lord’s Supper, and preaching. The reading of Scripture shall also be considered as acceptable since it relates to preaching. No other acts (such as lighting candles, dramatic presentations or readings, etc.) shall be allowed in the service other than the following exceptions: making of announcements, recognizing of families who wish to place membership with the congregation, giving of Bibles to graduates or other special people, or other such special activities that shall be deemed as appropriate for the worship service.
10 It is permissible for congregations to have salaried preachers and other paid employees (such as youth ministers, education ministers, secretaries, janitors, etc.).
11 Acceptable designations for preachers shall be the following: “ministers”, “evangelists”, or “gospel preachers”. Generally speaking, all preaching can be called “gospel preaching” regardless of the subject. Sermons shall typically be ended with an invitation to be baptized or to rededicate one’s life to the Lord.
12 The Lord’s Supper shall be observed every first day of the week, and it cannot be observed on any day other than the first day of the week (nor at any function other than one specified as a formal worship service). If the congregation chooses to have another worship service later in the day, the Lord’s Supper shall then be observed again. However, only those who were not at the earlier service (or who otherwise did not already partake) are expected to partake. These same persons are to be given the opportunity to put an offering in the collection plate. These two acts of worship can be done in the presence of others who merely watch, or it can be done in a separate assembly apart from other Christians.
13 The Lord’s Supper shall consist of the following (and in this order): 1) a prayer of thanksgiving for the bread (which must be unleavened); 2) the distributing of the bread; 3) a prayer of thanksgiving for the fruit of the vine; and, 4) the distributing of the fruit of the vine.
14 Those who have not been baptized shall not be allowed to conduct any public part of the service. There is one exception to this rule: young boys who have not yet been immersed may be permitted to read Scripture in the general assembly or to lead singing or prayers in a special assembly for the purpose of training such boys.
15 Those who have not been baptized shall be allowed to participate in the worship by listening to the prayers and the preaching. They are further allowed to actively participate by joining in the singing and by putting money in the collection plate. They are not, however, allowed to partake of the Lord’s Supper.
16 The music of the worship assembly shall be limited to the vocal expression of words. No humming or other non-worded sounds are permitted. The use of harmonious or other singing shall be deemed as fulfilling the pattern of chanting as found in the early church.
17 No instrument of music shall be used at any time in the worship other than to play the first note or key of a song before the singing of that song. The use of a song leader is permitted, as is the use of a microphone for him. Song books or other such aids are also permitted. However, it is forbidden for more than one person to help in leading the singing, and no voice other than that of the one song leader’s may be amplified by artificial means.
18 Singing shall at all times be congregational; at no time is it permitted for one person or group of persons to sing while another merely listens, other than at those brief times when a song is written accordingly. In other words, it is permissible for different people to sing different parts at different times during a song, provided that all members sing at some point during the song and it can reasonably be said that they all sang together.
19 If a congregation wishes to permit a separate group (such as a chorus) to sing to the congregation, it must be done in a separate assembly, or at least after what is considered the closing prayer of the worship assembly. It is permitted for the chorus to sing, read Scripture, and end with a closing prayer, but this shall not be considered as a time of worship, nor shall any individual in the audience allow their thoughts or feelings to be intended as a worship unto God. It is merely a performance for entertainment value; the fact that songs, hymns, and spiritual songs are being sung is inconsequential. If a woman should be used to lead the group, she is not permitted to speak until after the close of this non-worship service.
20 There shall be no clapping, raising of hands, or any other gesture or indecent or disorderly action during the worship service. However, a congregation is allowed to suspend this rule during special child-oriented services such as Vacation Bible Schools or Youth Rallies.
21 During the worship assembly, men are allowed (but not required) to say aloud “amen” or some other similar word or phrase as long as such is done decently and in order. Expressions such as “Praise the Lord” would technically be permitted, but are not recommended.
22 A collection of money is to be taken every first day of the week. Each Christian is to give as he purposes in his heart, keeping in mind the amount generally required under the Old Law. The money collected shall be put into a church treasury and referred to as “the Lord’s money”, but it can be used for a variety of purposes such as church buildings, utility bills, employee salaries, landscaping, etc. (all at the discretion of the elders). Funds cannot be obtained and deposited into the church treasury by any other means than by free will offerings. Fundraisers of any kind are forbidden.
23 The elders of a congregation may choose to have more than one regular assembly during each week. If so, attendance by all members at all of these assemblies is required unless they are prevented from doing so due to illness, work, or some other good reason. Those who no longer attend any assembly on a regular basis shall be deemed as being unfaithful and shall eventually be disfellowshipped (this shall typically be comprised of declaring such in a worship assembly and in a letter sent to the person being disfellowshipped).
24 Women are allowed to teach other women or children. They may not teach male children who have been baptized. Women may speak aloud in any Bible class (while still recognizing the authority of the man), but not during the formal worship service (other than during the announcement period).
25 The business of each congregation shall be conducted by one of two methods: 1) a plurality of elders and deacons; or, 2) a men’s business meeting. The first is the preferred option, but it is not required if the congregation cannot find at least two men willing or able to fulfill the responsibility. Elders and deacons must fit the qualifications listed by Paul, the main difference being that elders have to have children who have been baptized, while deacons just have to have children. Those men who are needed to serve as deacons but do not technically fit the qualifications can still be used as long as their title is changed (“ministry leader”, etc.). Women may serve in an appropriate way but are not to be called deaconesses.
26 There shall be no organization of the church beyond that of the local congregation. However, conformity of beliefs can be maintained through brotherhood lectureships, publications, universities, etc.
27 Elders have authority only over the local congregation. However, there are some exceptions to this rule. An eldership can take upon itself (with approval by the other party or parties) the oversight of such things as congregations with few members considered to be in a mission area, church workers in mission areas, or other similar works deemed to be in need of the oversight of an eldership.
28 A plurality of congregations may combine money from their respective treasuries for the purpose of evangelistic efforts in another location. At no time, however, can this effort be conducted or organized in such a way as to be construed as a “missionary society”.
29 Divorced persons are to be a welcome part of the congregation. However, those divorced persons who wish to marry again, or those who have already been divorced and married again, must be investigated by the church (or its designee) in order to determine if their marriage (or pending marriage) has been preceded by a “Scriptural divorce” (that being one where the other person committed adultery either before or after the divorce). Those deemed to be in “unscriptural marriages” are expected to get a divorce in order to remain in good standing with God and the church.
30 All major doctrinal issues must be understood and taught without error. This includes (but not necessarily limited to): that we are not predestined to salvation, that it is possible for a Christian to lose his/her salvation, that speaking in tongues and other such miraculous gifts came to an end at the completion of the writing of the NT, that there will be no Rapture nor 1000 year reign of Christ, and that Heaven and Hell are literal. However, this requirement of perfect understanding shall not apply to the issue of the indwelling and operation of the Holy Spirit.
31 The preaching of these rules and correct doctrinal positions shall be deemed and denoted as “preaching the truth”. As noted above, people who do not understand these rules (and thus fail to follow them perfectly) shall be deemed as not truly loving God nor the truth.
32 These rules shall be observed without variation of any kind. Anyone who fails to know and follow these rules perfectly is deemed to be lost eternally unless he/she repents. The grace of God shall not be thought to be extended for any misunderstanding or noncompliance. However, moral imperfection (sin) shall be excused (covered by grace) provided the person regularly prays and asks for forgiveness.
33 Any group who fails to abide by these rules in their entirety is to be called a denomination. Anyone who attends a denomination is committing the sin of denominationalism.
In addition, the following are yet more rules that are not as frequently debated:
1. observing Christmas or other holidays
2. fruit of the vine must be fermented/not fermented
3. one cup vs. multiple cups
4. no kitchen or eating in the building
5. cannot give to non-Christians, orphan homes, etc.
6. non-baptized not allowed to read Scripture
7. no separated classes
8. Bible versions
9. taking of oaths
10. serving in the military
11. inflicting capital punishment
12. using force to defend oneself or others
13. serving as a government official
14. lifting hands while singing
15. joining a ministerial alliance
16. how God answers prayer
17. fasting
18. who selects and appoints elders
19. singing as the emblems are passed
20. use of church buildings for secular activities
21. building of fellowship halls, gymnasiums, etc.
22. use of an instrument in "church" weddings
23. youth directors, youth rallies, youth camps
24. the six days of creation being literal days
25. the operation of Christian hospitals
26. ministers of education, ministers of music, etc.
27. the baptismal "formula"
28. formal confession before baptism
29. dedicating babies
30. signing contribution pledge cards
31. women wearing shorts and slacks
32. women working outside the home
33. Children's Bible Hour
34. bussing children to services
35. degrees of reward and punishment
36. dress code for men serving the Lord's Supper
The Rules & Pattern of the Church of Christ
1 It must be noted immediately that this list is not to be construed as a written creed. No statement of beliefs or rules outside the Bible itself is permitted. However, it will be permitted that such lists of beliefs or rules shall be allowed if written in a church bulletin or other published material provided that such is clearly designated as not being a written creed. This list is here shared merely as a convenience and with the understanding that there is really no need for such since all these rules are to be found in a clear and unmistakable form scattered throughout the pages of the collected books of the New Testament. It is also to be believed that anyone who truly loves God and the truth will easily find these exact rules and consequently obey.
2 By Scriptural definition (and for the purpose of applying these rules), a Christian is one who has done the following five acts of salvation (and in this order): hear, believe, repent, confess (a “Yes” response to the question “Do you believe that Jesus is the Son of God?” shall be construed as a valid confession), and be baptized. Of the several purposes and benefits of baptism, one must know that baptism is “for the remission of sins” in order for God to consider it a valid baptism.
3 A person who has completed the above five acts of salvation, but who comes to doubt the validity of their baptism (perhaps later thinking that he/she did not fully understand the primary purpose), shall be baptized again. One of the following scenarios must be adopted: 1) that the entire previous life of the person in question shall be considered as one outside of Christ and separated from God, thus only now becoming a new child of God; or, 2) that the person in question is being rebaptized “just in case”. In this instance, it shall be assumed that the person is doing so with the knowledge that baptism is generally “for the remission of sins”, even though he/she has may not be sure if such cleansing is really needed. Regardless, any rebaptism shall be preceded with the standard ritual of confession (one’s previous life as an apparent believing Christian shall not suffice as meeting this requirement).
4 The Bible shall be considered as the standard of authority for every spiritual matter. It shall be interpreted using the approved method of “command, example, and necessary inference”. Silence of the Scriptures on any matter is to be construed as a forbiddance of such. However, this rule shall not be applied to matters considered to be helpful in obeying any other commands (such as church buildings and their necessary furnishings, etc.).
5 Congregations shall name themselves according to the following guidelines: 1) the name shall be one that is found in Scripture and has within it the name of God or Christ (it shall be permitted that Paul’s use of the term “churches of Christ” in referring to various congregations may be used as a formal name and amended to “Church of Christ”); and, 2) the name may be preceded with a location description, that being the location of the church building, not necessarily the location of the church itself.
6 All those congregations who use the same generic name (excluding the location part of the name) and uniformly subscribe to these rules shall be considered as “the brotherhood”; no other Christian (one who has believed and been baptized but does not subscribe to one or more of these rules) shall be considered as being a part of “the brotherhood”.
7 Individual members of the church may be called by several different names that are found in Scripture (“disciples”, “saints”, “children of God”), but “Christian” is the preferred designation.
8 The church shall gather every first day of the week for worship. (Note: Most calendars have Sunday as the first day of the week. Cultures whose calendars are different will have to decide whether to observe Sunday or their first day of the week; no further help here is given in making that decision.)
9 The worship service shall consist of the following five acts of worship: praying, singing, giving, partaking of the Lord’s Supper, and preaching. The reading of Scripture shall also be considered as acceptable since it relates to preaching. No other acts (such as lighting candles, dramatic presentations or readings, etc.) shall be allowed in the service other than the following exceptions: making of announcements, recognizing of families who wish to place membership with the congregation, giving of Bibles to graduates or other special people, or other such special activities that shall be deemed as appropriate for the worship service.
10 It is permissible for congregations to have salaried preachers and other paid employees (such as youth ministers, education ministers, secretaries, janitors, etc.).
11 Acceptable designations for preachers shall be the following: “ministers”, “evangelists”, or “gospel preachers”. Generally speaking, all preaching can be called “gospel preaching” regardless of the subject. Sermons shall typically be ended with an invitation to be baptized or to rededicate one’s life to the Lord.
12 The Lord’s Supper shall be observed every first day of the week, and it cannot be observed on any day other than the first day of the week (nor at any function other than one specified as a formal worship service). If the congregation chooses to have another worship service later in the day, the Lord’s Supper shall then be observed again. However, only those who were not at the earlier service (or who otherwise did not already partake) are expected to partake. These same persons are to be given the opportunity to put an offering in the collection plate. These two acts of worship can be done in the presence of others who merely watch, or it can be done in a separate assembly apart from other Christians.
13 The Lord’s Supper shall consist of the following (and in this order): 1) a prayer of thanksgiving for the bread (which must be unleavened); 2) the distributing of the bread; 3) a prayer of thanksgiving for the fruit of the vine; and, 4) the distributing of the fruit of the vine.
14 Those who have not been baptized shall not be allowed to conduct any public part of the service. There is one exception to this rule: young boys who have not yet been immersed may be permitted to read Scripture in the general assembly or to lead singing or prayers in a special assembly for the purpose of training such boys.
15 Those who have not been baptized shall be allowed to participate in the worship by listening to the prayers and the preaching. They are further allowed to actively participate by joining in the singing and by putting money in the collection plate. They are not, however, allowed to partake of the Lord’s Supper.
16 The music of the worship assembly shall be limited to the vocal expression of words. No humming or other non-worded sounds are permitted. The use of harmonious or other singing shall be deemed as fulfilling the pattern of chanting as found in the early church.
17 No instrument of music shall be used at any time in the worship other than to play the first note or key of a song before the singing of that song. The use of a song leader is permitted, as is the use of a microphone for him. Song books or other such aids are also permitted. However, it is forbidden for more than one person to help in leading the singing, and no voice other than that of the one song leader’s may be amplified by artificial means.
18 Singing shall at all times be congregational; at no time is it permitted for one person or group of persons to sing while another merely listens, other than at those brief times when a song is written accordingly. In other words, it is permissible for different people to sing different parts at different times during a song, provided that all members sing at some point during the song and it can reasonably be said that they all sang together.
19 If a congregation wishes to permit a separate group (such as a chorus) to sing to the congregation, it must be done in a separate assembly, or at least after what is considered the closing prayer of the worship assembly. It is permitted for the chorus to sing, read Scripture, and end with a closing prayer, but this shall not be considered as a time of worship, nor shall any individual in the audience allow their thoughts or feelings to be intended as a worship unto God. It is merely a performance for entertainment value; the fact that songs, hymns, and spiritual songs are being sung is inconsequential. If a woman should be used to lead the group, she is not permitted to speak until after the close of this non-worship service.
20 There shall be no clapping, raising of hands, or any other gesture or indecent or disorderly action during the worship service. However, a congregation is allowed to suspend this rule during special child-oriented services such as Vacation Bible Schools or Youth Rallies.
21 During the worship assembly, men are allowed (but not required) to say aloud “amen” or some other similar word or phrase as long as such is done decently and in order. Expressions such as “Praise the Lord” would technically be permitted, but are not recommended.
22 A collection of money is to be taken every first day of the week. Each Christian is to give as he purposes in his heart, keeping in mind the amount generally required under the Old Law. The money collected shall be put into a church treasury and referred to as “the Lord’s money”, but it can be used for a variety of purposes such as church buildings, utility bills, employee salaries, landscaping, etc. (all at the discretion of the elders). Funds cannot be obtained and deposited into the church treasury by any other means than by free will offerings. Fundraisers of any kind are forbidden.
23 The elders of a congregation may choose to have more than one regular assembly during each week. If so, attendance by all members at all of these assemblies is required unless they are prevented from doing so due to illness, work, or some other good reason. Those who no longer attend any assembly on a regular basis shall be deemed as being unfaithful and shall eventually be disfellowshipped (this shall typically be comprised of declaring such in a worship assembly and in a letter sent to the person being disfellowshipped).
24 Women are allowed to teach other women or children. They may not teach male children who have been baptized. Women may speak aloud in any Bible class (while still recognizing the authority of the man), but not during the formal worship service (other than during the announcement period).
25 The business of each congregation shall be conducted by one of two methods: 1) a plurality of elders and deacons; or, 2) a men’s business meeting. The first is the preferred option, but it is not required if the congregation cannot find at least two men willing or able to fulfill the responsibility. Elders and deacons must fit the qualifications listed by Paul, the main difference being that elders have to have children who have been baptized, while deacons just have to have children. Those men who are needed to serve as deacons but do not technically fit the qualifications can still be used as long as their title is changed (“ministry leader”, etc.). Women may serve in an appropriate way but are not to be called deaconesses.
26 There shall be no organization of the church beyond that of the local congregation. However, conformity of beliefs can be maintained through brotherhood lectureships, publications, universities, etc.
27 Elders have authority only over the local congregation. However, there are some exceptions to this rule. An eldership can take upon itself (with approval by the other party or parties) the oversight of such things as congregations with few members considered to be in a mission area, church workers in mission areas, or other similar works deemed to be in need of the oversight of an eldership.
28 A plurality of congregations may combine money from their respective treasuries for the purpose of evangelistic efforts in another location. At no time, however, can this effort be conducted or organized in such a way as to be construed as a “missionary society”.
29 Divorced persons are to be a welcome part of the congregation. However, those divorced persons who wish to marry again, or those who have already been divorced and married again, must be investigated by the church (or its designee) in order to determine if their marriage (or pending marriage) has been preceded by a “Scriptural divorce” (that being one where the other person committed adultery either before or after the divorce). Those deemed to be in “unscriptural marriages” are expected to get a divorce in order to remain in good standing with God and the church.
30 All major doctrinal issues must be understood and taught without error. This includes (but not necessarily limited to): that we are not predestined to salvation, that it is possible for a Christian to lose his/her salvation, that speaking in tongues and other such miraculous gifts came to an end at the completion of the writing of the NT, that there will be no Rapture nor 1000 year reign of Christ, and that Heaven and Hell are literal. However, this requirement of perfect understanding shall not apply to the issue of the indwelling and operation of the Holy Spirit.
31 The preaching of these rules and correct doctrinal positions shall be deemed and denoted as “preaching the truth”. As noted above, people who do not understand these rules (and thus fail to follow them perfectly) shall be deemed as not truly loving God nor the truth.
32 These rules shall be observed without variation of any kind. Anyone who fails to know and follow these rules perfectly is deemed to be lost eternally unless he/she repents. The grace of God shall not be thought to be extended for any misunderstanding or noncompliance. However, moral imperfection (sin) shall be excused (covered by grace) provided the person regularly prays and asks for forgiveness.
33 Any group who fails to abide by these rules in their entirety is to be called a denomination. Anyone who attends a denomination is committing the sin of denominationalism.
In addition, the following are yet more rules that are not as frequently debated:
1. observing Christmas or other holidays
2. fruit of the vine must be fermented/not fermented
3. one cup vs. multiple cups
4. no kitchen or eating in the building
5. cannot give to non-Christians, orphan homes, etc.
6. non-baptized not allowed to read Scripture
7. no separated classes
8. Bible versions
9. taking of oaths
10. serving in the military
11. inflicting capital punishment
12. using force to defend oneself or others
13. serving as a government official
14. lifting hands while singing
15. joining a ministerial alliance
16. how God answers prayer
17. fasting
18. who selects and appoints elders
19. singing as the emblems are passed
20. use of church buildings for secular activities
21. building of fellowship halls, gymnasiums, etc.
22. use of an instrument in "church" weddings
23. youth directors, youth rallies, youth camps
24. the six days of creation being literal days
25. the operation of Christian hospitals
26. ministers of education, ministers of music, etc.
27. the baptismal "formula"
28. formal confession before baptism
29. dedicating babies
30. signing contribution pledge cards
31. women wearing shorts and slacks
32. women working outside the home
33. Children's Bible Hour
34. bussing children to services
35. degrees of reward and punishment
36. dress code for men serving the Lord's Supper
Bob said (sigh...):
DHK - Acts 2:38 like you didn't know that was coming...now the 'party line' please. DHK, you have read histoy, you know the Baptism Regeneration has been taught not only in the Bible explicitly, but also attested through all history. Baptism non-regeneration is a well known and now popular heresy.
So, what is your main point here? Both get to heaven but we are cheapening yours by saying you get in some other way? Is this a fight over a term?
DHK - Acts 2:38 like you didn't know that was coming...now the 'party line' please. DHK, you have read histoy, you know the Baptism Regeneration has been taught not only in the Bible explicitly, but also attested through all history. Baptism non-regeneration is a well known and now popular heresy.
Yes, I have read history, and studied the Bible. I prefer what the Bible says over the what Catholic historians say. They seem somewhat biased. However there are two separate strands of history. There is throughout history those who have believed as the Bible teaches, and the Apostles taught, that salvation is by faith alone, in every generation since the Apostles. They are mostly (but not necessarily entirely) Baptistic in faith, though called by different names.
We do not have to depend on Catholic history for the history of believers or of Christiantiy throughout the ages. To do so, would be both biased and wrong. Nor do we have to depend on the church fathers. Much of their writings are full of heresies. Origen was the Father of Arianism, and believed in a host of other heresies as well. Carson can document those for you. I believe it was Iraeneus who believed that Jesus lived to the ripe old age of 80. One of the others invented the doctrine of purgatory. It was Augustine that Calvin got his Calvinism from. The church fathers were in error, in many things. Many heresies grew out of their teachings.
One of the greatest is baptismal regeneration.
Baptismal regeneration, as demonstrated by history, has been around for a long time. That doesn't make it any less a heresy. It is the Bible that we must go by. Salvation by faith, and faith alone has been taught consistently by believers all throughout history. That also can be demonstrated. Ask Tertullian. He recanted of his former beliefs on baptism when he joined the Montanists.
Acts 2:38 does not teach baptismal regeneration. Perhaps in another post I will explain what it does mean (as I have in many other posts already). But suffice it to say that when one encounters one or two verses that are troublesome in meaning, and go against the general teaching of the Bible, then one must assume that the verse is teaching something else and his understanding of the verse is found wanting--for the Bible does not contradict itself. You hang your theology on just one or two verses in the Bible. And as for infant baptism there is not one example in the entire Bible of any infant ever being baptized.
But there are literally scores of verses that tell us that salvation is by faith.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
John 11:25-26 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
Acts 16:30-31 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
1 John 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
1 John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
I hope you get the idea. Salvation is by faith, by faith alone. That is the teaching of all of these verses. This is the teaching of Acts 2:38 also though at a cursory glance it may not seem so. Salvation is by faith. It is the free gift of God. It cannot be earned by the work of baptism. Baptismal regeneration is a heresy that goes against the plain sense of the Bible.
DHK
From my new Baptism page:
Most churches have membership classes, and baptism has become associated with the act of joining an organized church fellowship. Since most do not want just anyone to join their church, nobody just baptizes anyone who comes without knowing them. Originally, the church was not a corporate "organization", and people were baptized directly into Christ, and then it was up to them to find a local fellowship of Christians to become a part of. Now, it is all "organization" oriented, drawn according to doctrines and practices, many of them outright false (cults, liberals/modernists etc), and even among the "orthodox", various denominations or circles such as Calvinism, Arminianism, separatistic fundamentalism, or charismaticism believe they are truer to the Gospel than others; so they can't just baptize someone into Christ and then tell them just to go fellowship somewhere. (This is precisely what Billy Graham is often criticized for). So Baptism remains associated with local church (or at least denomination) membership.
So something else now had to take the place of baptism at the evangelistic rally. Just calling them up to the altar without the water is just as public, but also allows for the ministers to pray with the person, perhaps talk to them, give them literature or New Testaments, get their name and schedule future meetings. This then will hopefully lead to baptism, membership and growth in Christ. Of course, like baptism, going down to the altar itself does not save, but should mark or accompany the acceptance of Christ, and if not, once the ministers explain it to him more in depth, hopefully then he would accept Christ. Of course, nothing is guaranteed, so people are wrong if they just pronounce someone saved simply for coming down to the altar. This also helps discuss the passage those of a Campbellistic bent use, about how "baptism doth now save" (1 Pet.3:21)(and also Acts 2:38). It's baptism "by one spirit into one body" (becoming a Christian or member of Christ's body)(1 Cor. 12:13) that saves, and water baptism was the outward symbol of this transaction (a person's conscience is cleared when he receives forgiveness for his sins, which are symbolically "buried" in the water, and than the "new man" rises out of it, as in a resurrection). But now unfortunately, many have come up with this new symbol, and this is what is causing all of this confusion. This is not necessarily justifying altar calls as the new "baptism", but just showing why it has taken its place.
As for the list of rules and pattern, on one hand, it says "Silence of the Scriptures on any matter is to be construed as a forbiddance of such", but there is so much in there the scripture is silent on, or outright contradicts. Instruments are forbidden because of this "silence", but when it's pointed out that they were used in the OT, then it is claimed, "but we only go by the NT". But the OT is still scripture. Shifting standards and definitions of what is scripture! And how then is an instrument OK to set the first note/key? Of course, "However, this rule shall not be applied to matters considered to be helpful in obeying any other commands (such as church buildings and their necessary furnishings, etc.)" What a loophole! So corporate organization and paid officers ("professionalism") and many other things not mentioned in the NT, but the COC, as a modern western Church group are used to, are OK. Who determines what is "necessary" for obeying other commands.
And such an issue of the first day of the week is made, but where do you get this banning of meeting on any other day? Since the first day of the week is assumed to be "commanded" because of simple passing reference in the NT, then Acts 2:46 says they met and had communion every day. And if your culture has a different first day, it must still be that "first day"? What is the magical significance of "the first day"? Hey, Bob, why don't you live inside a TV Guide, where Saturday is the first day? Then you would be accepted by the COC.
"that there will be no Rapture nor 1000 year reign of Christ". Are you so sure you are right about stuff like this to make it a "major doctrine"?
Let's face it, Campbellism is just yet another movement with an unbiblical set of doctrines and rules that it uses to one-up everyone else.
Most churches have membership classes, and baptism has become associated with the act of joining an organized church fellowship. Since most do not want just anyone to join their church, nobody just baptizes anyone who comes without knowing them. Originally, the church was not a corporate "organization", and people were baptized directly into Christ, and then it was up to them to find a local fellowship of Christians to become a part of. Now, it is all "organization" oriented, drawn according to doctrines and practices, many of them outright false (cults, liberals/modernists etc), and even among the "orthodox", various denominations or circles such as Calvinism, Arminianism, separatistic fundamentalism, or charismaticism believe they are truer to the Gospel than others; so they can't just baptize someone into Christ and then tell them just to go fellowship somewhere. (This is precisely what Billy Graham is often criticized for). So Baptism remains associated with local church (or at least denomination) membership.
So something else now had to take the place of baptism at the evangelistic rally. Just calling them up to the altar without the water is just as public, but also allows for the ministers to pray with the person, perhaps talk to them, give them literature or New Testaments, get their name and schedule future meetings. This then will hopefully lead to baptism, membership and growth in Christ. Of course, like baptism, going down to the altar itself does not save, but should mark or accompany the acceptance of Christ, and if not, once the ministers explain it to him more in depth, hopefully then he would accept Christ. Of course, nothing is guaranteed, so people are wrong if they just pronounce someone saved simply for coming down to the altar. This also helps discuss the passage those of a Campbellistic bent use, about how "baptism doth now save" (1 Pet.3:21)(and also Acts 2:38). It's baptism "by one spirit into one body" (becoming a Christian or member of Christ's body)(1 Cor. 12:13) that saves, and water baptism was the outward symbol of this transaction (a person's conscience is cleared when he receives forgiveness for his sins, which are symbolically "buried" in the water, and than the "new man" rises out of it, as in a resurrection). But now unfortunately, many have come up with this new symbol, and this is what is causing all of this confusion. This is not necessarily justifying altar calls as the new "baptism", but just showing why it has taken its place.
As for the list of rules and pattern, on one hand, it says "Silence of the Scriptures on any matter is to be construed as a forbiddance of such", but there is so much in there the scripture is silent on, or outright contradicts. Instruments are forbidden because of this "silence", but when it's pointed out that they were used in the OT, then it is claimed, "but we only go by the NT". But the OT is still scripture. Shifting standards and definitions of what is scripture! And how then is an instrument OK to set the first note/key? Of course, "However, this rule shall not be applied to matters considered to be helpful in obeying any other commands (such as church buildings and their necessary furnishings, etc.)" What a loophole! So corporate organization and paid officers ("professionalism") and many other things not mentioned in the NT, but the COC, as a modern western Church group are used to, are OK. Who determines what is "necessary" for obeying other commands.
And such an issue of the first day of the week is made, but where do you get this banning of meeting on any other day? Since the first day of the week is assumed to be "commanded" because of simple passing reference in the NT, then Acts 2:46 says they met and had communion every day. And if your culture has a different first day, it must still be that "first day"? What is the magical significance of "the first day"? Hey, Bob, why don't you live inside a TV Guide, where Saturday is the first day? Then you would be accepted by the COC.
"that there will be no Rapture nor 1000 year reign of Christ". Are you so sure you are right about stuff like this to make it a "major doctrine"?
In other words, salvation is by works.
Let's face it, Campbellism is just yet another movement with an unbiblical set of doctrines and rules that it uses to one-up everyone else.
eschatologist
New Member
DHK
Then what is it that saves you, belief, confession, repentance, or all the above?! You quoted Jo.3:16 which says belief only! Then you also quote from Romans which says confession saves you. And I could throw several scripures that include baptism in the salvation equation. It also mentions that your faith has saved you, so does it or does it not include(faith) the above elements(belief/ confession/ repentance/ baptism), or is salvation something that is totally unseen by all, as your your definition posits?
Anyway why would you continue to insist on the others, yet over and over omit baptism? I believe it comes from the way you have been taught-- it does not fall into your frame of theology. I see in many of your posts how you aggresively comment on other doctrines and churches that you do not agree with, who may add to or omit certain essential elements of faith, yet it appears you yourself do it as well! I will be very interested to see your explaination and how you side-step around the passages like Acts 2:38; Mark 16:16; 1Pet.3:21 and others. Even more so I imagine it would be quite interesting to see your eschatalogical views of the bible. Maybe someone could label your views as "heretical!"
Furthermore I guess your church has no set rules or policy. I guess they allow you to smoke in the church service? Can you wear just your underware while attending the Lord's table? To be an elder what qualifies you-- the ablility to kick a can across the parking lot?!
You seem to know so much about other churches and denominations, and maybe correctly so, but what is the backgroud for your churches belief? Is it the bible solely, or are there man-made elements. Please enlighten us.
Then what is it that saves you, belief, confession, repentance, or all the above?! You quoted Jo.3:16 which says belief only! Then you also quote from Romans which says confession saves you. And I could throw several scripures that include baptism in the salvation equation. It also mentions that your faith has saved you, so does it or does it not include(faith) the above elements(belief/ confession/ repentance/ baptism), or is salvation something that is totally unseen by all, as your your definition posits?
Anyway why would you continue to insist on the others, yet over and over omit baptism? I believe it comes from the way you have been taught-- it does not fall into your frame of theology. I see in many of your posts how you aggresively comment on other doctrines and churches that you do not agree with, who may add to or omit certain essential elements of faith, yet it appears you yourself do it as well! I will be very interested to see your explaination and how you side-step around the passages like Acts 2:38; Mark 16:16; 1Pet.3:21 and others. Even more so I imagine it would be quite interesting to see your eschatalogical views of the bible. Maybe someone could label your views as "heretical!"
Furthermore I guess your church has no set rules or policy. I guess they allow you to smoke in the church service? Can you wear just your underware while attending the Lord's table? To be an elder what qualifies you-- the ablility to kick a can across the parking lot?!
You seem to know so much about other churches and denominations, and maybe correctly so, but what is the backgroud for your churches belief? Is it the bible solely, or are there man-made elements. Please enlighten us.
The answer is given very simply in Ephesians 2:8,9
Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Salvation is all of grace. There is no works involved in salvation, none whatsoever. “It is the gift of God: Not of works.
Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Again it emphasized that salvation is all of grace. You cannot have it both ways. It is either God’s grace or your works (eg. Baptism). “If by grace, then it is no more of works.”
Salvation is all of the grace of God. God, entered into this world as an infant, lived among men, chose to die for the sins of mankind, shed his blood to pay the penalty of man’s sin, was buried and rose again defeating death and sin—offering all who put their faith in that sacrifice forgiveness of sins and eternal life.
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
The wages (that which we deserve) of sin is death (eternal death) or eternal separation from God. But the gift of God is eternal life. Christ took our place, paid the penalty we could not pay, atoned for our sin, that we by faith in his sacrifice might receive the gift of eternal life. It is a gift that can only be received by faith. The entire work of salvation was done by Christ. It was all of the grace of God. We can do nothing, add nothing to the work of Christ. It was His doing, His work, His grace. In John 19:30 Christ cried out: “It is finished.” The work of salvation is finished. There is nothing more that you can do. Your baptism will not avail you anything. It is blasphemous to even think that baptism should add to the work of Christ—totally blasphemous to think that man could add one iota to what Christ has already done. Salvation is by grace, a gift of God, to be received by faith, and by faith alone.
“Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.” (Acts 16:31)
To believe is to have faith in. If I believe in what a person says to me, then I have faith that his words are true. I am trusting what he says to me is true. I have confidence in what he says. These words: believe, trust, faith, confidence are all closely related to each other as synonyms.
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ is the same as saying Have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.
What happens when a person believes that Jesus Christ is Lord. (Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved). This is no mental assent. To believe that one is your Lord, is serious business. It involves a serious outcome that most people are not willing to consider. If Jesus Christ is truly my Lord (i.e, my master), then I am His servant. The Greek word that Paul uses for servant in Romans 1:1, when Paul identifies himself as a servant of God is doulos, which mean a bond-slave—a slave who was bonded for life to his master. He was one would do whatever His master would bid him to do. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ; this is not something to be taken lightly. It is not just a prayer to be repeated. It is not a simple mental assent or knowledge gained as in facts of history. It is believe that comes from the heart, a belief that compels one to obey.
Thus belief includes repentance. If I believe that Jesus is Lord I will have repented, that is, changed from my old sinful way of living, and changed unto the Godly way of living that Christ would have me to live. That is what repentance is. It is a change of attitude in respect to God. Believe on the LORD Jesus Christ. If I believe that Christ is Lord, then my belief will include repentance.
Confession:
Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
This is where you get confession from. But the key is not confession it is belief. Notice the definition of belief—believe with your heart. It is not just knowledge or a mental assent. If Christ is truly Lord, then confessing Him as such will be no trouble will it When you believe, you ask, or call upon his name in prayer—literally confessing His name. It is then that Christ saves you. It is in faith that you call upon his name. This is not an act as in a work. This is receiving Christ by faith. How else can I receive him, unless I call upon him, or I confess him, as the word is used here. It is not used in the sense of confession of sin, or confessing one to another. It is used in the sense of calling on the name of the Lord.
Baptism is never associated with salvation except symbolically. It is a picture of a believer’s death to his old life of sin, and his resurrection to a new life in Christ. That is the teaching in Romans 6:3,4. It is the first step of obedience that a believer, one who already has been saved takes after salvation. Never in the Bible do we see an unsaved person being baptized. Never is it taught in the Bible that baptism is a part of salvation.
BTW, I was raised a Catholic, another group holding heretical doctrines.
My beliefs come from the Bible. You mention how I “aggressively comment on other doctrines and churches that you do not agree with.”
Yes this may be true. Error needs to pointed out. The Bible itself says to earnestly contend for the faith (Jude 3). When I see heresy I most certainly will point it out as heresy. You are on a Baptist Board. Remember that. You views will be challenged. If you have thin skin this is not the place for you. The COC is a cult that originated with Alexander Cambell and is relatively new to Christianity. It is arrogant for it to come on the scene and claim to have all the answers to orthodox Christianity, and then to promote its own brand of heresy.
There are many religions that post here. Again remember it is a Baptist Board.
Whose doctrine is the heretical doctrine here: You are the one that that is a guest posting from the position of a cult (COC) on a Baptist Board. You questioned my views as heretical but remember which side of the fence you are standing on. As to your own stand, if you believe not me take a look at a site that isn’t even run by a Baptist as to whether or not the COC is a cult:
http://www.carm.org/
DHK
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Charles - most Christians know that the New Covenant IS the Gospel covenant by which mankind is saved. SO when the statement is made that non-Catholics "can not be saved under the New Covenant" (as well as "outside of the Church no salvation) - you can surely "see" how a non-Catholic might view that as "less than positive".
Now the RCC does claim to "make up a way out of thin air" that they allow for non-Catholic salvation - as long as it is "not the Bible way - which is the New Covenant". And as "kind" as that is - still for a non-Catholic it is "less than positive".
I already gave Dr Carroll's testimony. Here is yet another..
In Christ,
Bob
eschatologist
New Member
DHK
I to believe it is by the grace of God through faith to which you are saved. What I have been trying to get across to you is something you touched on a little: that belief, confession, repentance, and yes baptism, is all a part of faith. What I can not seem to explain to you is just as I consider belief, confession and repentance to NOT be a work, even though it is something you consciencely do, I also do not consider baptism a work, even though you consciencely do it(1Pet.3:21), but I consider it a part of faith. This is where I feel many on this issue fail.
How you get the baptism in Mark 16:16 to only be a symbolic gesture is beyond me, but in order for you to do this, in the literary stucture of that verse, you would then have to say that the belief part of this passage is only symbolic as well! Go figure. One only needs to SYMBOLICALLY believe. Yet this contradicts what you said about beief earlier.
I need to depart at this time, but I will definitely continue with this soon!
I to believe it is by the grace of God through faith to which you are saved. What I have been trying to get across to you is something you touched on a little: that belief, confession, repentance, and yes baptism, is all a part of faith. What I can not seem to explain to you is just as I consider belief, confession and repentance to NOT be a work, even though it is something you consciencely do, I also do not consider baptism a work, even though you consciencely do it(1Pet.3:21), but I consider it a part of faith. This is where I feel many on this issue fail.
How you get the baptism in Mark 16:16 to only be a symbolic gesture is beyond me, but in order for you to do this, in the literary stucture of that verse, you would then have to say that the belief part of this passage is only symbolic as well! Go figure. One only needs to SYMBOLICALLY believe. Yet this contradicts what you said about beief earlier.
I need to depart at this time, but I will definitely continue with this soon!
Harley4Him
New Member
Bob, you should start collecting all this stuff and publishing it. Judging by some of the Chick tract threads there seems to be a big market for this type of material.
Good luck!
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Hard to believe that Fr. Ken Ryan of "Catholic Digest" is being slandered as though a quote from him is equal to a quote from "Jack Chick" - but I guess "it will do" if you have no other sticks handy.
But - oh yes - Harley would not know an RC source from Jack Chick publications - I forgot!
Bob
But - oh yes - Harley would not know an RC source from Jack Chick publications
- I forgot!
Bob