The Church of Christ

DHK

quote:
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Baptism is never associated with salvation
except symbolically.
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You can not hardly be any more direct than Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, and 1Pet.3:21! Then Romans 6:3, John 3:5, Col.2:12, and Gal.3:27 explains the effects of baptism SYBOLICALLY!!! You accuse me of adding to the word, well I believe it is you that are taking away from the word by WATERING down baptism. Jesus gave us(and you) the best example possible in His baptism, or was it, as you say, His "first step of obedience" to the Father? It was then(at His baptism) that He received power from on high in the Holy Spirit coming upon Him. If this(baptism) was nothing more than symbolic, why would Jesus express the NECESSITY

 

DHK

quote:
__________________________________________
Baptism is never associated with salvation
except symbolically.
__________________________________________

You can not hardly be any more direct than Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, and 1Pet.3:21! Then Romans 6:3, John 3:5, Col.2:12, and Gal.3:27 explains the effects of baptism SYBOLICALLY!!! You accuse me of adding to the word, well I believe it is you that are taking away from the word by WATERING down baptism. Jesus gave us(and you) the best example possible in His baptism, or was it, as you say, His "first step of obedience" to the Father? It was then(at His baptism) that He received power from on high in the Holy Spirit coming upon Him. If this(baptism) was nothing more than symbolic, why would Jesus express the NECESSITY to be baptized in front of all to receive the Holy Spirit?

quote:
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To believe is to have faith in.
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These words: believe, trust, faith, confidence
are all closely related to each other as
synonyms.
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I AGREE!!! Faith is believing, faith is repenting, faith is confessing. But what you apparently fail to see is that faith is also being baptized. These are all a part of faith! And you must obey the Lord Jesus Christ in doing these. It was said about Jesus:

"and, once made perfect, he became the source
of eternal salvation for all who obey him"
(Heb.5:9).

quote:
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But the key is not confession it is belief.
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You must have a totally different key than what I find in the bible!

"That if you confess with your mouth, 'Jesus
is Lord,' and believe in your heart that God
raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
For it is with your heart that you believe
and are justified, and it is with your mouth
that you confess and are saved"(Ro.10:9,10).

It sounds like confession is an important key to me, and a separate action altogether, yet it is all a part of faith in Jesus Christ. And believing and repenting, although tied together under faith in Jesus Christ, is likewise a separate action, and essential as well.

Finally, if believing in something other than what your denomination believes in constitutes being heretical or a cult, then your denomination must be out on an island all by itself. Most all these denominations can be traced back to some individual, even yours. I confess that I do not know much about Baptist history(if this is what you are), but of the Church of Christ history I do know this. Alexander Campbell desired to return back to the original theme of the 1st century church in which he felt the church had strayed(a sort of reformation). He, together with other people from various denominations(including Baptists), retuned back to study how the original 1st century church was to operate according to the New Testament. This is how the Church of Christ began. And this is how baptism became an essential element in faith. By the way many of the early church fathers(Clement, Barnabas, Tertullian, Justin Martyr, Shepherd of Hermas, etc.) believed that baptism was essential. And as a matter of fact for the first 300 years or so this is what the church vehemently believed.

You need to take a closer look at the passages I provided above concerning baptism and see how they tie together with the other elements to equal faith. It does not say "Whoever believes and/or is baptized will be saved." It takes both, or both are only symbolic. You can not have your cake and eat it too!

 

If baptism is part of salvation then how do you interpret this verse:

1 Cor. 1:17,

"For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be made of none effect."

If baptism is part of salvation, then why the apostle Paul never baptized all his converts?

If apostle Paul believed that baptism is part of the gospel, why He said that Christ sent Him not to baptize but to preach the gospel. His priority is not baptizing.

Were some of His converts not completely saved because apostle Paul preach only the gospel rather than doing baptism?

As i understand, once you believed the gospel you are completely saved even if without baptism.

The following verse tells us:

verse 17,

"For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God."

So it follows that we are saved upon believing the gospel which Paul preached even without baptism.

Otherwise Paul will be in the business of baptizing those whom he want to get saved.

But He made it clear that His priority is not baptizing but preaching the gospel and thus those who believed got saved even He did not baptized them.

 

Any response from my last post?

 

If you read and look closely Paul had disciples with him that took care of this, permitting him to preach. Paul did baptize a few, but by in large these disciples took care of baptizing. I will provide further information on this.

 

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I would admit that maybe many converts of apostle Paul were baptized sometime after they got saved by other disciples but why did apostle Paul wait for them to do the baptism if is part of salvation?

 

Why did Paul also highlighted that Christ did not send Him to baptize, but to preach the gospel?

If baptism is part of the gospel then apostle Paul should not separate the issue of baptizing from the gospel preaching. He should have preached and then baptized.

 

Eschatologist,
In answer to your post:

“Baptism is never associated with salvation except symbolically.”
This statement of mine got you so upset that it made you double post. Well the truth has a habit of doing that. For every atom of oxygen there are two atoms of hydrogen. Combined together they make H2O, or water. Any person wanting to believe in the silly superstition that H2O washes away your sins is fine with me, but just don’t say it is of the Bible. We aren’t a superstitious folk. It is the blood of Christ that washes away sin, not water. The waters of baptism can only make you wet. That is all the power they have. Water is made of the elements of the earth—hydrogen and oxygen. Animists worship things like. I hope that you are not placing yourself in that same category. Only Christ can save; baptism cannot.

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
--Take a good look at the last part of the verse. “He that believeth not shall be damned.” There is no mention of baptism there, and for good reason. It isn’t necessary to be baptized for salvation, just as it isn’t necessary not to be baptized to go to Hell. Baptism is not part of the equation here. It is belief, and belief alone. Otherwise the verse would say “believe not and be not baptized shall be damned.” The omission is deliberate for a reason. Baptism is not necessary.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
--“Be baptized…for the remission of sins”
baptized . . . for the remission of sins--as the visible seal of that remission. (Jamieson, Faucett, and Brown)

Acts 2:38 And Peter said unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto (eis) the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. (ASV)

Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto (eis) repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

The same Greek word is used in both verses translated “unto.”
Baptize(d) unto repentance/remission
Did John baptize the Pharisees or Jews so that they would receive repentance, or because they had repented? “Unto repentance.” The answer is obvious. Go back and read the full text. Bring fruit meet (fit) for repentance. He would not baptize them unless he saw evidence of repentance. It was because they had repented that he baptized. The word “unto” or “eis” therefore has a meaning “because of,” that is, “I baptize you…because of your repentance.
In the same way “unto” or eis is used in Acts 2:38, “Repent and be baptized “because of” the remission of your sins. Baptism never results in the remission of sins, but is always given after a persons sins has already been remitted by Christ.

1 Peter 3:21 which also after a true likeness doth now save you, even baptism, not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the interrogation of a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ;
--What saves? A true likeness does now save you. That doesn’t even say that baptism saves. It says that a likeness saves. Ever heard of a simile, or a figure of speech?
To fully understand this verse you must know the context:

1 Peter 3:20 that aforetime were disobedient, when the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water:
--The context is Noah, and how he was saved. Was Noah saved by the water or by the Ark? The water was the means by which the world and the inhabitants were destroyed. It was an instrument of destruction to the people; an instrument of cleansing to the earth. It was the ark that saved Noah. The ark was a picture of Christ. They were safe in the Ark, as the believer is safe in Christ. The ark was immersed in the oceans of the deep, the waves slapping on the sides of the ark, the rains coming from above. It was immersed. The word baptism is simply a word meaning “immersed.” It does not always refer to water baptism, nor even to spirit baptism. It is simply a word meaning immersed. The ark was immersed in water. The ark was the instrument of salvation to Noah, as Christ is the instrument of salvation to every believer. Without Christ you cannot be saved. Without the ark they could not be saved.

In verse 21 it says “also after a true likeness does now save you.” What is the true likeness.” What is the true likeness? That Jesus saves. As the ark saved now, being baptized in the waters of the flood, Jesus saves, being baptized unto death, and it is our identification with him (by our faith) that saves us. It is a picture, a likeness. It even says it is.

“Not the putting away of the filth of the flesh. It does not refer to the removal of physical defilement. Physical water (such as baptism) is able to clean physical dirt. That is the function of water. Water cleans dirt. This is not speaking of water baptism. The Jews were familiar with ritual washings which did provide a sort of external cleansing. Peter says it is not this type of cleansing.
Water, of any kind, including baptismal water, cannot provide a clear conscience toward God. Only a personal relationship with Christ in His death, burial, and resurrection can do that.

How can one have a righteous standing before God? The answer is exactly what Peter wrote. It is the baptism of which Peter has been speaking—Christ’s baptism unto death at Calvary and one’s personal acceptance of that work. By Christ’s death the sin question was settled once for all.
“Through the resurrection of Jesus Christ” We know that God is satisfied with the atoning work of Christ because Christ arose from the dead. A clear conscience is inseparably linked with the resurrection of Jesus Christ: they stand or fall together. If Christ had not risen we could never be sure that our sins had been put away.
My only claim for a good conscience is base on the death burial and resurrection of the Lord Jesus. The order is as follows:
1. Christ was baptized unto death for me at Calvary.
2. When I trust Him as Lord and Saviour, I am spiritually united with Him in His death, burial and resurrection.
3. Through knowledge that He has risen, my request for a clear conscience is answered.
4. In water baptism, I give visible expression to the spiritual deliverance I have already experienced.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except one be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God!
--What has that got to with the price of tea in China, or with baptism? The subject is “born again,” and not once in the entire chapter is baptism mention. Water means water, not necessarily baptism. Don’t read into Scripture that which is not there.

Colossians 2:12 having been buried with him in baptism, wherein ye were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.
--Read the context. Buried with Christ. What was buried with Christ? Our old life was buried with Christ. Our new life with Christ is what rose again. It is symbolic.

Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ did put on Christ.
--Same as above. When a person is baptized into Christ (symbolically) he becomes dead to his old life of sin, and puts on a new life in Christ. The waters of baptism do nothing but get you wet.
Baptism does not save, has no part in salvation. Baptismal regeneration is a heresy that takes away from the atoning work of Christ on the cross of Calvary.
DHK

 

What I am saying is that Paul may have not been the one to actually baptize the believer(and notice I said believer), but I can be quite sure that he was right there with the other disciples when the new converts were baptized. Jesus did not baptize any except maybe His apostles, for He was the one preaching the message. When He had preached the message and the disciples had finally grasped the truth, Jesus sent them out with a command, "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age"(Matt.28:19,20). Pay special attention to the actions He commanded: "baptizing them"; "teaching them to OBEY EVERYTHING." Notice He did NOT say obey SOME things, but EVERYTHING! Furthermore Mark worded Jesus' command this way, " Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned"(Mk.16:16).


Yet, likewise with Paul's associates, Jesus' disciples probably did the baptizing with Him present during the baptism. We can not disassociate Jesus' claim with having to be "born again," and this being symbolized as happening with baptism.

The verses are there that show baptism is linked with salvation, you have all seen them before. We can see over and over again that once someone believed they were immediately baptized. This baptism debate can continue on and on and never be resolved, for when looking through a dim glass, one will struggle to find the truth. One thing is for sure-- this debate will eventually be settled. It will be resolved. When that time comes it will boil down to this: If it is necessary and you disobeyed, then take your position with the goats. If it was necessary and you obeyed, then take your position among the sheep. If you were baptized and it was not essential, then the question would be, has it harmed you?

As for me the evidence is there, both within the bible and in the writings of the early church fathers. My standing with the Lord is satisfied, I pray that yours will be also-- with no future consequences. Go with God!

 

DHK

I respect you understanding and believe from what I read from you that you are quite intelligent, so here is a mystery that I would like to tickle your brain with:

Some very wise sage said, "He that eateth and digesteth shall live, He that eateth not shall die."

Do you notice something missing in the second part of this saying? Has it escaped your inquisitive mind? Where is "digesteth???" Hmmm, this is quite perplexing-- a quandary!!!

Hmmm. Could it possibly be that if one does not eat he could not possibly digest, then he will die?!

So it is also with Mark 16:16. If you do not believe baptism serves no use. As you said, "The waters of baptism can only make you wet." Yet if you believe baptism is meaningful in every way-- linked here with salvation. Why is this so hard to understand, because this is the same old arguement that is presented over and over again in an attempt to counter Jesus' extrordinary saying in Mark 16:16. This is the typical two-step side-step maneuver.

If you wanted to join a club that you have heard was good, yet you knew nothing about it, and you were told that to join it you had to have an initiation, something you were not too crazy about doing-- would you fulfill the initiation without at least knowing what the club was about? Most normal minded people would want to know what this club was about before doing any initiation, because there is the possibility you may not even like the club after all.

So it is with baptism. Why be baptized for something you know absolutely nothing about, or even worse may not agree with?

Your logic "Take a good look at the last part of the verse. 'He that believeth not shall be damned.' There is no mention of baptism there, and for good reason. It isn't necessary to be baptized for salvation, just as it isn't necessary not to be baptized to go to Hell. Baptism is not part of the equation here" will not hold the very atom of oxygen and two atoms of hydrogen(H2O) that you stated above. Wow, talk about not accepting what just came out of the mouth if the Lord!!! Side- step #1.

Your next verses (Act.2:38; Matt.3:11; 1Pet.3:20,21) are converting this side-stepping to a full blown dance, to which I will soon address. I don't want to write a book on one post.

 

I give you anoter very wise sage. His name is Charles Haddon Spurgeon. The quote is from his book "Morning and Evening"

DHK

 

Another wise man on the same verse:
Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Believer’s Bible Commentary
DHK

 

DHK

Please let me pause to catch my breath as I continue to run after you in pursuit, for you run quite fast as you continue to circle around Mark 16:16!

Charles Spurgeon is indeed a wise man, but he is a micron of a man compared to Jesus. Jesus says the words, intellectuals try to tell you what He really meant. Back and forth we go, like a championship tennis match. Jesus serves, they lob, many times completely out of bounds. Love, set, match for Jesus. His words must prove true. Jesus said what He meant and meant what He said. If Jesus says belief and baptism saves, the renowned astrophysicist Steven Hawking can not negate what the Lord Jesus Christ has said. He might would convince you, but Jesus is the way the truth and the life-- and in His words only am I convinced, convicted and saved.

 

Too bad you don't understand Jesus' words.

 

Once again, It's baptism "by one spirit into one body" (becoming a Christian or member of Christ's body)(1 Cor. 12:13) that saves, and water baptism was the outward symbol of this transaction (a person's conscience is cleared when he receives forgiveness for his sins, which are symbolically "buried" in the water, and than the "new man" rises out of it, as in a resurrection).
Today, baptism is associated with joining an organized group, so is often put off until membership is made official, and sometimes for years, until you find a church you feel right in joining. (This was my case). But originaly the two types of baptism were simulatneous.
Still, it would be wrong to say one is not saved simply because they have not found a church to be baptized by yet. Let's see the Church of Christ and other Campbellites give up their organizations and buildings (which they admit are not in the Bible), and just go around baptizing people into Christ like the original disciples did. they they would have more of an argument.

 

DHK

What about Acts 2:38 is SYMBOLIC? I have tried to explain that one myself in the past. How do you explain it?


How do you know for sure that Romans 6 is talking about Baptism sybolically only? How do you know for sure, that it is not describing the things that are occurring during water baptism?

 

Eschatologist
I would just like to add one point to your post as it pertains to Mark 16:16. The phrase and is baptized not is absent from the passage because it would viloate the rules of grammar. Grammarians would call it, " redundancy". However, for those who do not understand the rules of grammar, it is a difficult concept to grasp.
Amazingly, some would have the Lord to be an illiterate to please there false concepts of salvation.

 

EricB

You stated, if I read you correctly, that baptism was associated with forgiveness of sins. That is definitely how the bible expresses it. So then, you also claim that baptism has no part in salvation. Well, I ask you this question, can someone be saved without forgiveness of sins? I think I saw you shake your head NO. If that is what you believe then you are correct. You can not be saved apart from the forgiveness of sins. So then, whether you realized it or not, you just linked baptism to salvation. Now you need to go back and create another angle to dismiss baptism with salvation-- for this one has failed!

 

Charles:

See my post above. I did explain it. The baptism itself is, of course, actual water baptism. But it is symbolic—of our death to our old life to sin, and our resurrection to our new life in Christ. That is one reason why baptism is always by immersion. Any other mode would destroy the picture in baptism.
As to the meaning in the verse: the Greek word “eis” can have the meaning “because of.” Thus they were baptized because of they had already received the forgiveness of their sins, not in order to receive the forgiveness of sins. The Bible never teaches that baptism is a part of salvation that is necessary for forgiveness of sins. Let me repost that part of my explanation regarding Acts 2:38.

Acts 2:38 And Peter said unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto (eis) the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. (ASV)

Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto (eis) repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

The same Greek word is used in both verses translated “unto.”
Baptize(d) unto repentance/remission
Did John baptize the Pharisees or Jews so that they would receive repentance, or because they had repented? “Unto repentance.” The answer is obvious. Go back and read the full text. Bring fruit meet (fit) for repentance. He would not baptize them unless he saw evidence of repentance. It was because they had repented that he baptized. The word “unto” or “eis” therefore has a meaning “because of,” that is, “I baptize you…because of your repentance.
In the same way “unto” or eis is used in Acts 2:38, “Repent and be baptized “because of” the remission of your sins. Baptism never results in the remission of sins, but is always given after a persons sins has already been remitted by Christ.

Look at the verses themselves:

Romans 6:3-4 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
--It is speaking of water baptism, but it is speaking of what the meaning of baptism is; what it symbolizes. The meaning here would be senseless if baptism were necessary or a part of salvation. It is a picture. Only Christ can save. Salvation is totally by the grace of God, and our faith in what He has done for us. Baptism pictures that.
After we were saved we were baptized. We were baptized into his death. As Christ died, so we died. We died to our old life of sin. “Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death.

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
--You were once dead in sin; now you are alive in Christ.

“That like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.” Christ was raised from the dead. In baptism the picture is that when we rise out of the water it pictures our resurrection to a new life in Christ. We were dead in sin; now we are alive in Christ. It is simply a picture.
Some also attach the picture of the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Either way it must be symbolic, and it must be by immersion, after the fact that salvation has already been an accomplished feat in the person needing to be baptized. It is a step of obedience in the believer’s life, that has symbolic value, but does nothing more than get you wet.
DHK

 

DHK

1. Just what covenant system do you think the thief was under? Had Jesus died yet? Because Jesus was still alive, the thief was under the Mosaic covenant. The covenant of grace had not yet been implemented. They were still under the old system in which baptism wasn't a necessary ordinance anyway. The Hebrew writer states:

"Then he said, 'Here I am, I have come to do your will.' He sets aside the first to establish the second"(Heb.10:9).

"By calling this covenant 'new,' he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear"(Heb.8:13).

Hebrews was written around 62-65 AD, and at the time it was written the old covenant still had not totally run its course, but it would soon.

2. Acts 10:44-48 does not say that they were saved. I am sure they had probably heard the gospel(Act.10:36), but unless you understand what happened here this will probably be a mystery to you. Peter received here a pouring out of the power of the Holy Spirt by God upon the gentile believers in front of the jews so that they could see that God does not show favoritism. This was similar in power to that which came upon the apostles at Pentecost. Since they believed, and theyn even were a witness to the power of the Holy Spirit, so Peter ordered that they be baptized, and he even stayed with them for a few more days.

3) Jesus baptized His apostles, but just as Paul had disciples that took care of most of the baptizing so Paul could preach the gospel, Jesus' disciples did the baptizing as He preached the gospel of truth. If Jesus thought it was such a trivial work as you suggest, He Himself would not have done this as an example to be seen by many.

4. I can not believe the meaning of these passages have escaped you! Paul did not want the new believers to boast that they were baptized by Paul or into Paul. He preached the gospel, and those disciples helping Paul did most of the baptizing, with certainly Paul there as a witness.

5. Hmmm. How many passages are there that says by believing you are saved, or it is with you mouth that you confess and are saved, or obedience connected with salvation? And then the nearly 150 which states by your faith you are saved as you wrote. Think about it. Maybe, just maybe they are all incorporated under faith, which would make all these statement true and meaningful.

6. It is here that I am finally coming to the conclusion that I am waisting my time with you! How can you mention about "baptism connected with death and burial" which I believe here you are thinking about Romans 6:3f, yet then say baptism is not connected "with spiritual birth???!!!" Did Romans 6:4-13 bounce completely over your head???!!! Maybe the Mars rover will find it for you and take a picture! If you can not wait for this try reading Colossians 2:12 and 1Peter 1:23 and John 3:3-8. Maybe then you will understand what new birth is about in relation to baptism!

Our Lord said:

"This ia why I speak to them in parables: 'Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand... You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving. For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn them, and I would heal them'"(Matt.13:13-15).


Finally, I always hear people mention that baptism is meant to be understood as an "outward expression of belief" from an "inward feeling." Please at least give me some concrete scripture to support this belief.

Go with God.