Tell me something God did not do or allow.

Well first off a calvinist would declare God not sovereign. If God planted a seed and started a work that person is already saved or regenerated according to calvinist.</font>[/QUOTE]Nice try. Actually, I take that back. It's so sophomoric even a 5 year old could see through it, so "nice try" is an undeserved compliment. Which calvinist has ever said that the scattering of the seed in this parable is equal to regeneration on whomever it falls?

Do free willers have no respect for scripture at all? It would seem so.

 

So God let satan into the garden and said to himself, "Gee, I have perfect omniscience so I know exactly what's going to happen. I sure hope Adam and Eve are more powerful than my omniscience and surprise me by not sinning, even though I personally set it all up so that they'd not only be tempted by satan (since satan wouldn't even be allowed in there unless I gave him permission) but disobey me (since I know beforehand that's what they'll do as a result of my allowing satan in there)."

Yeah, that makes sense.

 

It says, "not willingly". I take that to mean it was not God's will that man sin, but there is no doubt he did know that he would for Jesus stood as a slain Lamb from the foundation of the world, other words, the remedy for sin was there before the sin was ever committed which would cover your comments on Judas and the crucifixion. Which covers what I believe to be predestination of the plan of God that includes His Apostles also.

The Scripture goes on to say He subjected the same in Hope (Jesus Christ). So the remedy was there already.

 

Regarding Judas John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

God allowed Satan to enter judas and betray Jesus so that the scripture would be fufilled and glory be brought to Himself. Everything works to the glory of God someway or another.

 

But, Bro. Bob, if God has complete foreknowledge (which I believe He does), and He knows that if He starts this plan in motion, Adam and Eve are going to sin (which you rightly say He did since the cross was pre-planned), how is that any better than Calvinists saying that God pre-determined that Adam and Eve would sin? Couldn't He have come up with another plan?

 

He could have, I doubt if any one believes otherwise that God had the power to create man perfect if He so desired. But, He made man to get Glory and honor out of him and if man was a robot then there would of been no Glory for if the man had no choice in the matter how could God get Glory from him. You added the "complete" which fits your absolutism and that is where we part. Even though God knew that Adam would sin, He still game Adam the choice to do so or not, it is what the Scriptures say. Pre-determined and foreknew are two different things.

 

Well first off a calvinist would declare God not sovereign. If God planted a seed and started a work that person is already saved or regenerated according to calvinist.</font>[/QUOTE]Nice try. Actually, I take that back. It's so sophomoric even a 5 year old could see through it, so "nice try" is an undeserved compliment. Which calvinist has ever said that the scattering of the seed in this parable is equal to regeneration on whomever it falls?

Do free willers have no respect for scripture at all? It would seem so. </font>[/QUOTE]Do you have any respect for God's people. You seem so ready to kill anyone who doesn't agree with you. How do you live like that?!

 

Revelation, chapter 13

"8": And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world

1 Corinthians, chapter 2
"6": Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

"7": But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

"8": Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

"16": For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

Romans, chapter 11

"32": For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

"33": O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

"34": For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counseller?


.

Not me npet; just quoting the Scriptures.
whose sense is it, man or God's?

Wisdom of Solomon
"17": And thy counsel who hath known, except thou give wisdom, and send thy Holy Spirit from above?

"18": For so the ways of them which lived on the earth were reformed, and men were taught the things that are pleasing unto thee, and were saved through wisdom.(The Lord)

I think you are missing the point npet;
God made "good" it also created "evil",


There is more!!!

 

Just meant there are more Scriptures. As I looked back it didn't look good.

 

But, Bro. Bob, if God has complete foreknowledge (which I believe He does), and He knows that if He starts this plan in motion, Adam and Eve are going to sin (which you rightly say He did since the cross was pre-planned), how is that any better than Calvinists saying that God pre-determined that Adam and Eve would sin? Couldn't He have come up with another plan? [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]I think we agree completely along these lines Cal, but the sticky pt is still free will. Yes God knew, nothing caught Him by surprise and He allowed it too happen. He didn't cause it, or co herce it too happen. He didn't tell satan to do it, but none the less it was no surprise to God.

 

Everything in existence (Heaven) was "perfect" until God created the earth, so why did God create an Earth where both Satan/Angels/Man were given the opportunity to reject God??


God could have predestined all to hell or heaven, totally engulfing/eliminating sin in the world, but he didn't predestine any either way, but said "CHOSE YE", whom ye will serve,

WHY put Angels/Man in a position of having to chose between "Good/Evil",

"WHY"??

Eze 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, (satan) and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.

Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: (Kingdom) and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

Re 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven,(Angels) and did cast them to the earth:

 

(The Lord) This Scripture was talking about when the Church came from out of the Law to the Grace Covenant and Jesus was born.

 

Me4Him, when you put perfect and Good/Evil inside quotation marks in this context, it indicates that they are questionable concepts. I'm sure you didn't intend that.

Additionally, there is no reason to place WHY? inside quotes.

The bold WHY without quotes just above that is appropriate. You could have employed that emphasis technique for "WHY?"

 

As to the OP, this is "the never-ending story." It will go on forever in these boards, never coming to resolution.

 

Calvinist have a hard time with "reading comprehension", so I have to "focus" their attention on the main question with quotations.

"IF" God is perfect and wants a "perfect world", then "WHY" didn't he just create it from the beginning, and forget about all the "CHOSE YE'S"????

If God isn't willing for any to perish, then why did God gave man a "CHOICE" which condemns him???

 

Me4, I don't suppose you have an answer for your own question, do you? If God is so loving, why would He give every person He created a choice to go to hell in the first place? You ask a lot of questions, but can't provide any answers.

The only answer any of us can provide for why (notice how bolding something emphasizes it a lot better than quotation marks) God does anything is that it glorifies Him. That is His main purpose in all that He does. Most people on this board, both Calvinists and non-Calvinists recognize that. You, however, seem to have man's free choice as your main emphasis.

 

there is a reason why man's free choice was necessary. If you look at the two great commandments, they are both to love, first God and then our neighbors. Love is not an emotion; it is a conscious and deliberate commitment. It means nothing if the choice is not there to not love.

God created is for love and to love. The evidence of love where God is concerned is obedience to Him. Neither obedience nor love mean anything unless they are the products of free will and free choice.

If a bride is at the altar because her father is golding a gun to the groom's head, will she ever have assurance she was married for love? If a robot does everything commanded, that is not obedience, that is simply doing what it was programmed to do. If it doesn't, it is broken.

But when we have the choice to love (whether or not we can accomplish it) and to obey (whether or not we can accomplish it), and choose to at least WANT to, despite all that is around us and all the influences to do otherwise, God honors that, to His glory, by granting the person exposure to the Truth of Himself, one way or another. These are the called.

The chosen are those that say 'yes.' Just like a marriage, the choosing is not only volitional on both sides, but free and mutual.

I remember the 'unrequited love' I experienced (never mind how many times!) as a teenager. Not really love as I know it now, with Christ, but the best I could do then. And it didn't matter how much I wanted the guy to like me, if he didn't he just didn't.

But we were created to love, and God has made it possible through Christ to enable us to love, truly love, when we are born again through the Holy Spirit.

That is why free will is essential to our very creation as human beings. God has allowed it for His glory.

 

If love is not a choice, what is it?