Tell me something God did not do or allow.

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Timtoolman:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Luke 8:11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

If God either does, or allows. everything that happens, how is it that the devil was able to take away the word from the hearts of people that God was trying to save? If God allowed him to take it, then why did he allow him to take it? Or is God just too weak to prevent the devil from taking his word away?

Well first off a calvinist would declare God not sovereign. If God planted a seed and started a work that person is already saved or regenerated according to calvinist.</font>[/QUOTE]Nice try. Actually, I take that back. It's so sophomoric even a 5 year old could see through it, so "nice try" is an undeserved compliment. Which calvinist has ever said that the scattering of the seed in this parable is equal to regeneration on whomever it falls?

Do free willers have no respect for scripture at all? It would seem so.

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Brother Bob:
When God made "good" it also created "evil", for the opposite of doing good is to do evil and God made man subject to vanity. He could of made him perfect but God made him subject to vanity, but not willingly. In other words he made him so he could sin but would rather he did not. I hope I made this plain. Seems to me when God made man this way that evil was present and evil is satan.

So God let satan into the garden and said to himself, "Gee, I have perfect omniscience so I know exactly what's going to happen. I sure hope Adam and Eve are more powerful than my omniscience and surprise me by not sinning, even though I personally set it all up so that they'd not only be tempted by satan (since satan wouldn't even be allowed in there unless I gave him permission) but disobey me (since I know beforehand that's what they'll do as a result of my allowing satan in there)."

Yeah, that makes sense.

 

[J.D.]

Originally posted by Brother Bob:
When God made "good" it also created "evil", for the opposite of doing good is to do evil and God made man subject to vanity. He could of made him perfect but God made him subject to vanity, but not willingly. In other words he made him so he could sin but would rather he did not. I hope I made this plain. Seems to me when God made man this way that evil was present and evil is satan.

Thanks BroBob, that makes a lot of sense. Although this statement gives me some questions:

In other words he made him so he could sin but would rather he did not.

You've touched on something here we all, C and A and other, struggle to deal with. You said that He would RATHER Adam did not sin. Believe it or not, many Calvinists would agree (I think). They would say this represents the tension between God's will of desire vs his will of necessity. In other words, God desired man to not sin, but man's fall was necessary to the plan of salvation.

But my hang up is this: Was God's plan ruined? I believe God must have PLANNED for man to fall, and if that is so, how could he DESIRE that man not fall?

Isn't it possible that God, in fact, desired that man would fall, thereby making redemption necessary, and by redemption, receiving from man the love that only the redeemed could offer?

And in that scenario, didn't Satan, in his ignorant rebellion and contrary spirit, actually accomplish the thing which God had purposed him to do?

Wasn't that true of Judas' betrayal and the crucifixion also?

 

[Brother Bob]

When God made "good" it also created "evil", for the opposite of doing good is to do evil and God made man subject to vanity. He could of made him perfect but God made him subject to vanity, but not willingly

It says, "not willingly". I take that to mean it was not God's will that man sin, but there is no doubt he did know that he would for Jesus stood as a slain Lamb from the foundation of the world, other words, the remedy for sin was there before the sin was ever committed which would cover your comments on Judas and the crucifixion. Which covers what I believe to be predestination of the plan of God that includes His Apostles also.

The Scripture goes on to say He subjected the same in Hope (Jesus Christ). So the remedy was there already.

 

[Dustin]

Regarding Judas John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

God allowed Satan to enter judas and betray Jesus so that the scripture would be fufilled and glory be brought to Himself. Everything works to the glory of God someway or another.

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Brother Bob:
It says, "not willingly". I take that to mean it was not God's will that man sin, but there is no doubt he did know that he would for Jesus stood as a slain Lamb from the foundation of the world, other words, the remedy for sin was there before the sin was ever committed which would cover your comments on Judas and the crucifixion. Which covers what I believe to be predestination of the plan of God that includes His Apostles also.

The Scripture goes on to say He subjected the same in Hope (Jesus Christ). So the remedy was there already. [/QB]

But, Bro. Bob, if God has complete foreknowledge (which I believe He does), and He knows that if He starts this plan in motion, Adam and Eve are going to sin (which you rightly say He did since the cross was pre-planned), how is that any better than Calvinists saying that God pre-determined that Adam and Eve would sin? Couldn't He have come up with another plan?

 

[Brother Bob]

He could have, I doubt if any one believes otherwise that God had the power to create man perfect if He so desired. But, He made man to get Glory and honor out of him and if man was a robot then there would of been no Glory for if the man had no choice in the matter how could God get Glory from him. You added the "complete" which fits your absolutism and that is where we part. Even though God knew that Adam would sin, He still game Adam the choice to do so or not, it is what the Scriptures say. Pre-determined and foreknew are two different things.

 

[Timtoolman]

Originally posted by npetreley:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Timtoolman:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Luke 8:11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

If God either does, or allows. everything that happens, how is it that the devil was able to take away the word from the hearts of people that God was trying to save? If God allowed him to take it, then why did he allow him to take it? Or is God just too weak to prevent the devil from taking his word away?

Well first off a calvinist would declare God not sovereign. If God planted a seed and started a work that person is already saved or regenerated according to calvinist.</font>[/QUOTE]Nice try. Actually, I take that back. It's so sophomoric even a 5 year old could see through it, so "nice try" is an undeserved compliment. Which calvinist has ever said that the scattering of the seed in this parable is equal to regeneration on whomever it falls?

Do free willers have no respect for scripture at all? It would seem so. </font>[/QUOTE]Do you have any respect for God's people. You seem so ready to kill anyone who doesn't agree with you. How do you live like that?!

 

[Brother Bob]

Revelation, chapter 13

"8": And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world

1 Corinthians, chapter 2
"6": Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

"7": But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

"8": Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

"16": For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

Romans, chapter 11

"32": For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

"33": O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

"34": For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counseller?


.

Not me npet; just quoting the Scriptures.
whose sense is it, man or God's?

Wisdom of Solomon
"17": And thy counsel who hath known, except thou give wisdom, and send thy Holy Spirit from above?

"18": For so the ways of them which lived on the earth were reformed, and men were taught the things that are pleasing unto thee, and were saved through wisdom.(The Lord)

I think you are missing the point npet;
God made "good" it also created "evil",


There is more!!!

 

[Brother Bob]

Just meant there are more Scriptures. As I looked back it didn't look good.

 

[Timtoolman]

Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Brother Bob:
It says, "not willingly". I take that to mean it was not God's will that man sin, but there is no doubt he did know that he would for Jesus stood as a slain Lamb from the foundation of the world, other words, the remedy for sin was there before the sin was ever committed which would cover your comments on Judas and the crucifixion. Which covers what I believe to be predestination of the plan of God that includes His Apostles also.

The Scripture goes on to say He subjected the same in Hope (Jesus Christ). So the remedy was there already.

But, Bro. Bob, if God has complete foreknowledge (which I believe He does), and He knows that if He starts this plan in motion, Adam and Eve are going to sin (which you rightly say He did since the cross was pre-planned), how is that any better than Calvinists saying that God pre-determined that Adam and Eve would sin? Couldn't He have come up with another plan? [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]I think we agree completely along these lines Cal, but the sticky pt is still free will. Yes God knew, nothing caught Him by surprise and He allowed it too happen. He didn't cause it, or co herce it too happen. He didn't tell satan to do it, but none the less it was no surprise to God.

 

[Me4Him]

Everything in existence (Heaven) was "perfect" until God created the earth, so why did God create an Earth where both Satan/Angels/Man were given the opportunity to reject God??


God could have predestined all to hell or heaven, totally engulfing/eliminating sin in the world, but he didn't predestine any either way, but said "CHOSE YE", whom ye will serve,

WHY put Angels/Man in a position of having to chose between "Good/Evil",

"WHY"??

Eze 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, (satan) and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.

Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: (Kingdom) and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

Re 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven,(Angels) and did cast them to the earth:

 

[Brother Bob]

Re 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven,(Angels) and did cast them to the earth:

(The Lord) This Scripture was talking about when the Church came from out of the Law to the Grace Covenant and Jesus was born.

 

[genesis12]

Me4Him, when you put perfect and Good/Evil inside quotation marks in this context, it indicates that they are questionable concepts. I'm sure you didn't intend that.

Additionally, there is no reason to place WHY? inside quotes.

The bold WHY without quotes just above that is appropriate. You could have employed that emphasis technique for "WHY?"

 

[genesis12]

As to the OP, this is "the never-ending story." It will go on forever in these boards, never coming to resolution.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by genesis12:
Me4Him, when you put perfect and Good/Evil inside quotation marks in this context, it indicates that they are questionable concepts. I'm sure you didn't intend that.

Additionally, there is no reason to place WHY? inside quotes.

The bold WHY without quotes just above that is appropriate. You could have employed that emphasis technique for "WHY?"

Calvinist have a hard time with "reading comprehension", so I have to "focus" their attention on the main question with quotations.

"IF" God is perfect and wants a "perfect world", then "WHY" didn't he just create it from the beginning, and forget about all the "CHOSE YE'S"????

If God isn't willing for any to perish, then why did God gave man a "CHOICE" which condemns him???

 

[Calvibaptist]

Me4, I don't suppose you have an answer for your own question, do you? If God is so loving, why would He give every person He created a choice to go to hell in the first place? You ask a lot of questions, but can't provide any answers.

The only answer any of us can provide for why (notice how bolding something emphasizes it a lot better than quotation marks) God does anything is that it glorifies Him. That is His main purpose in all that He does. Most people on this board, both Calvinists and non-Calvinists recognize that. You, however, seem to have man's free choice as your main emphasis.

 

[Helen]

there is a reason why man's free choice was necessary. If you look at the two great commandments, they are both to love, first God and then our neighbors. Love is not an emotion; it is a conscious and deliberate commitment. It means nothing if the choice is not there to not love.

God created is for love and to love. The evidence of love where God is concerned is obedience to Him. Neither obedience nor love mean anything unless they are the products of free will and free choice.

If a bride is at the altar because her father is golding a gun to the groom's head, will she ever have assurance she was married for love? If a robot does everything commanded, that is not obedience, that is simply doing what it was programmed to do. If it doesn't, it is broken.

But when we have the choice to love (whether or not we can accomplish it) and to obey (whether or not we can accomplish it), and choose to at least WANT to, despite all that is around us and all the influences to do otherwise, God honors that, to His glory, by granting the person exposure to the Truth of Himself, one way or another. These are the called.

The chosen are those that say 'yes.' Just like a marriage, the choosing is not only volitional on both sides, but free and mutual.

I remember the 'unrequited love' I experienced (never mind how many times!) as a teenager. Not really love as I know it now, with Christ, but the best I could do then. And it didn't matter how much I wanted the guy to like me, if he didn't he just didn't.

But we were created to love, and God has made it possible through Christ to enable us to love, truly love, when we are born again through the Holy Spirit.

That is why free will is essential to our very creation as human beings. God has allowed it for His glory.

 

[J.D.]

Originally posted by genesis12:
As to the OP, this is "the never-ending story." It will go on forever in these boards, never coming to resolution.

Anyway, thanks for bring this back to the OP. AS far as it being a never ending story, the only reason it never ends is because some people simply refuse to accept the obvious resolution that obviously sits right in front of them.

God's plan was not ruined by Satan, on the contrary, Satan did exactly what God had planned for him to do. God INTENDED for Adam to fall, and also INTENDED to redeem him from it, INTENDING that Adam would worship God in a heart of genuine love and receive glory untainted by human pride.

If that makes God the author of sin, that's your words, not mine. For sure it makes God the author of a plan of glory that man could have never devised.

The fact that God has chosen to redeem a definite number from among fallen man, and not all, is fully His prerogative, and it serves the same end as all of his doings.

You can come to no other conclusion. Either God infallibly executed His plan, or He failed.

BTW this business of "love is a choice" sounds nice - like an folk legend. Got scripture for that?

IMO I think "love is a choice" is something people came up with to cover for their lack of heart-felt warmth toward their others. Love is from the heart, choice is from the mind. Many marriages down through the ages were "forced" at the end of a shotgun (not literally), and the couple went on to a life of marital love. I can give you names. Others didn't. The difference wasn't whether the relationship was forced or not, the difference was that special thing that happens between a man and a woman that can't be explained.

It doesn't make sense to me to build a whole system of doctrine around this idea that it isn't "real" love if there's not "free" choice.

I say it's not biblical - prove me wrong. But let's start another thread to do it, o.k.?

 

[Helen]

If love is not a choice, what is it?