The Holy Roman Catholic Church...

jcf · Feb 20, 2005

Originally posted by Logan:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by jcf:
The co-eternal, co-equal trinity God was formed through the Nicene Creek years after Jesus and the Apostles. So the Jesus that I believe in was taught by Jesus Himself and the Apostles. The requirment for the different Jesus is that it's not the same Jesus which was taught by the Apostles.

This is not true. This belief was well established prior to the Nicene Creed.
I will be happy to provide quotes from the Church Fathers...prior to the Nicene Creed...It was well established that Jesus Christ is God in the Flesh. [/QUOTE]Hi Logan,

The church fathers is not who we hear.

The word of God is what Jesus represents through His obedience to it.

Nowhere in the Scriptures does it teach that Jesus is God the Son.

Jesus is the Son of God, the Christ, the anointed one, the Messiah. Why? Because YAHWEH gave Jesus His Spirit without measure so that Jesus could speak YAHWEH's words.

John 3:34 "For He (Jesus) whom God (YAHWEH) has sent speaks the words of God, for God does not give (Jesus) the Spirit by measure.

Hear the prophecy YAHWEH gives to Moses regarding Jesus.

Deuteronomy 18:18-19 I (YAHWEH) will raise them up a Prophet (Jesus) from among their brethren, like unto thee (Moses), and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

YAHWEH anointed Jesus, YAHWEH was with Jesus, YAHWEH was not Jesus...Acts 10:38 "How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.

Very, very clear. No twisting of Scripture no words from the fathers, just plain truth from above.

Logan · Feb 20, 2005

Greetings jcf,

Most importantly the Bible does teach that Jesus is God. But you stated this was formed through the Nicene Creed. This is incorrect. The Church Fathers in the first and second centuries are clear on this subject. Here is your quote:

Originally posted by jcf:
The co-eternal, co-equal trinity God was formed through the Nicene Creek years after Jesus and the Apostles.

D28guy · Feb 20, 2005

jcf,

I contend with Catholics all the time regarding the grievious error or turning to the early "church fathers" to formulate doctrine, rather than the scriptures alone.

But there was nothing wrong with Logan bringing up the church fathers in the context of how he responded to you.

You said that the true doctrine of the triune nature of God was formulated with the Nicene creed. Logan shared that they have evidence that it was believes much earlier than that.

That makes you wrong.

Also, I have evidence that it was believed even earlier that those church fathers. I have evidence that it was believed in the 1st century. The evidence?

The scriptures.

The scriptures give solid evidence that Jesus Christ is God. The scriptures give solid evidence that the Holy Spirit is God. The scriptures of course give solid evidence that the Father is God. The scriptures give solid evidence that there is only one God.

If doesnt make an ounce of difference whethy we use the word "trinity" of not. I dont care for the word, so I rarely use it. I simply say God is triune in nature.

Its simply the truth. It was believed in the 1st century even though the word trinity hadnt become popular yet.

Mike

D28guy · Feb 20, 2005

DHK

That was a wonderful post you posted.

"In truth, the Scriptures need no interpretation, the interpret themselves. Notice that Mike gave a long list of Scripture how we are justifed by faith. It is a plain and simple statement of Scripture that needs no interpretation and yet it is ignored and disbelieved by those who want to believe otherwise. Prejudices and biases get in one's way."

In adition to that, many times people have no choice. They are forced to defend the indefensible, by choosing...for whatever reason...to yoke themselves with this massive hierarchially desingned monstrosity know as the Catholic Church.

There is no hearing Christs voice themselves..."My sheep hear my voice, the know it...and the voice of a stranger they will not follow"...and trusting the Holy Spirit to be the interpreted of truth for them.

"We are justified by faith. It does not say faith and works. It says faith; faith and....., and nothing more. That means faith alone to those that who might be grammatically challenged. It doesn't have to say "alone" to mean "alone." The Scripture doesn't have to use the word "trinity" in order to teach the concept of the trinity. Or must we present the same type of arguments of the J.W.'s. "The word is not in the Bible, and therefore it is not true." That really is a childish argument IMO. And yet I have heard it countless of times."

I have too, and its so very very sad.

I remember you as being from Australia...hello again, btw

...so you might now know of this, but the way Catholics refuse to see the truth reminds me of the big prison guard (Shultz) on the old TV program Hogans Heroes. Regarding truth, for Catholics it seems to be the old "look the other way" syndrom...

"I see nothing! I know nothing"!

We post reams and reams and reams of scripture...yet they can't believe it because the Hierarchy tells them they cant.

Very very very sad.

God bless,

Mike

Logan · Feb 20, 2005

Originally posted by D28guy:
remember you as being from Australia...hello again, btw

...so you might now know of this, but the way Catholics refuse to see the truth reminds me of the big prison guard (Shultz) on the old TV program Hogans Heroes. Regarding truth, for Catholics it seems to be the old "look the other way" syndrom...

"I see nothing! I know nothing"!

We post reams and reams and reams of scripture...yet they can't believe it because the Hierarchy tells them they cant.

Very very very sad.

Mike:

Very Bush league....How do the Scriptures say people will know if your a Christian?? By your wealth of knowledge? The Catholics could say the same about citing Scipture and you not listening.

You and DHK are apparently well versed in Scripture, but when you resort to name calling folks are going to tune you out.

BobRyan · Feb 20, 2005

Bob suggests the Trinity debate be its own thread so that the RCC thread can stay focused on RCC distinctives.

Jcf responds

Jcf said --

Bob,

The co-eternal, co-equal teaching of a trinity God is the foundation of the RCC. It was formed through the Nicene Creed. As a result of this creed a curse was put on anyone who did not receieve it. This resulted in the murder of many Christians.

#1. Check Fox's book of Martyrs - most are being slaughtered for refusal to worship Mary not for refusing to accept Christ as the 2nd person of the Godhead.

#2. I would argue that the RCC is in many ways guiltly of editing and changing the 4th commandment. However I would not bring that subject into an RCC thread - because it cuts a wider band than just the RCC.

I would stick with RCC "distinctives" like purgatory, praying to the dead, slaughtering the saints as "policy", contending with "sola scriptura" as the foundation and test of all doctrine etc.

#3. Since the Trinity subject is going to have the Arian view opposed by Christians all up and down the street - not just Catholics -- it does nothing to keep a focus on discussions BETWEEN Catholics and non-Catholics.

It defeats the purpose to inert it into an RCC thread and then have two groups of non-Catholics debate each other.

Surely the subject is important enough to get its own thread - without having it defocus this one. I think you will find the same people (and even more) that debate this subject with you here - will do it if it is on its own thread.

In Christ,

Bob

jcf · Feb 20, 2005

Originally posted by Logan:
Greetings jcf,

Most importantly the Bible does teach that Jesus is God. But you stated this was formed through the Nicene Creed. This is incorrect. The Church Fathers in the first and second centuries are clear on this subject. Here is your quote:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by jcf:
The co-eternal, co-equal trinity God was formed through the Nicene Creek years after Jesus and the Apostles.

[/QUOTE]Hi Logan,

Prior to the Nicene Creed the belief was in one God found in the Old Testament, Deuteronomy 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: the Lord our God is one Lord:"

Then in the New Testament by the mouth of Jesus. Mark 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

This was the belief until the church fathers began thinking and beliving that Jesus and YAHWEH were the same person. Following that came the Holy Spirit was the same as YAHWEH and Jesus. Then came the Nicene Creed to establish this belief. It's in the finalized Nicene Creed where we find the establisment of the co-eternal, co-eqaul trinity God. It was from that point on we have the curse on those who reject the co-eternal, co-equal Jesus.

The church fathers may have been thinking about these things prior to the Nicene Creed but it's one thing to think about and another to form a doctrine and then kill people who don't receieve it.

YAHWEH has revealed Himself many ways.

Hebrews 1:1-2 God (YAHWEH), who at various times and in different ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets. Has in these last days spoken to us by His Son...

Noice that in the OT YAHWEH revealed Himself through the prophets, NOT JESUS.

Jesus is not co-eternal and co-equal with YAHWEH. Jesus was born and Jesus died. Jesus now has eternal life and is immortal but it wasn't so prior to His glorification.

The prophecies in the Old Testament speak of a Messiah and anointed one in the New Testament He is called the Christ which means the anointed one. YAHWEH does not need to be anointed, He anoints.

jcf · Feb 20, 2005

Originally posted by BobRyan:
[QB]

1. Check Fox's book of Martyrs - most are being slaughtered for refusal to worship Mary not for refusing to accept Christ as the 2nd person of the Godhead.

Click to expand...

Mary worship began because Jesus became YAHWEH making Mary the mother of God.

#3. Since the Trinity subject is going to have the Arian view opposed by Christians all up and down the street - not just Catholics -- it does nothing to keep a focus on discussions BETWEEN Catholics and non-Catholics.

Click to expand...

We don't hear Arian.

Protestants are a branch of the RCC and have kept many of the foundational doctrines including the trinity doctrine.

It defeats the purpose to inert it into an RCC thread and then have two groups of non-Catholics debate each other.

Click to expand...

1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

The same mindset denys the anointed Son and makes Him equal with the Anointer. It also denys the Father and Son relationship by making them co-eternal.

Logan · Feb 20, 2005

Greetings jcf:

They were much more than just "thinking" about Jesus being God in the Flesh. This was the understanding and teaching from the very beginning of Christianity. Here is but one example: This is from Ignatius of Antioch, he was taught by the Apostle John himself.

"Ignatius, also called Theophorus, to the Church at Ephesus in Asia, which is worthy of all felicitation, blessed as it is with greatness by the fullness of God the Father, predistined from eternity for a glory that is lasting and unchanging, united and chosen through true suffering by the will of the Father in Jesus Christ our God..." Letter to the Ephesians A.D. 110

Now understand I dont hold the father's as inspired as Scripture is, but when you have people who knew and were taught by the Apostles, you can not just disregard them because they differ from your religion or sect.

Scripture is very clear that Jesus was God in the Flesh. Any thinking otherwise is denying Christ by denying in what He taught.

Bob: Im still waiting for the infallible decree that taught to "kill the saints." This is the kind of nonsense that needs to stop. Keep in the Word brother!

jcf · Feb 20, 2005

Originally posted by Logan:
[QB]

"Ignatius, also called Theophorus, to the Church at Ephesus in Asia, which is worthy of all felicitation, blessed as it is with greatness by the fullness of God the Father, predistined from eternity for a glory that is lasting and unchanging, united and chosen through true suffering by the will of the Father in Jesus Christ our God..." Letter to the Ephesians A.D. 110

Click to expand...

I don't know who this guy is and neither can I test what you say. Even if this guy was taught by the Apostle what he says does not make Jesus YAHWEH.

D28guy · Feb 20, 2005

Logan,

I said...

" remember you as being from Australia...hello again, btw ...so you might now know of this, but the way Catholics refuse to see the truth reminds me of the big prison guard (Shultz) on the old TV program Hogans Heroes. Regarding truth, for Catholics it seems to be the old "look the other way" syndrom...

"I see nothing! I know nothing"!

And you said...

Very Bush league....How do the Scriptures say people will know if your a Christian?? By your wealth of knowledge? The Catholics could say the same about citing Scipture and you not listening.

You and DHK are apparently well versed in Scripture, but when you resort to name calling folks are going to tune you out."

And when you guys blindly refuse to consider the truth, for no other reason than an idolatrous hierachy commands you to believe what they tell you to believe, we tune you out.

We are to discern truth Gods way, not the way of cults like Jehovahs Witnesses, Mormons, David Koresh, Jim Jones, and Christian Science. The Catholic Church is precisely and completly the same as those cults in this regard.

All of those cults, and the Catholic Church, tell their victims that...

"WE are your truth dispenser and interpreter of truth for you. You must not think for yourself regarding doctrine. WE ARE APPOINTED OF GOD TO DO THAT FOR YOU! (((SUBMIT!)))"

(And the history books are overflowing with the murderous proof of how seriously they mean that.)

How in the world you guys can be comfortable in a religious organisation that shares that demonic characteristic with cults like I mentioned is beyond me. Add to that the fact that the Catholic Church has substituted the true way of justification...faith in Christ alone...for the very justification system that almighty God curses in Galacians...justification by works...makes it even more stunningly incomprehensible.

After my little "Shultz" thing was actually the crux of the problem...

"We post reams and reams and reams of scripture...yet they can't believe it because the Hierarchy tells them they cant."

It is so sad and heartbreaking thats its beyond the ability of the english language to articulate it.

Very very sad.

Mike

Matt Black · Feb 21, 2005

Originally posted by jcf:
I don't know who this guy is

Time you did, my friend

Yours in Christ

Matt

jcf · Feb 21, 2005

Originally posted by Matt Black:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by jcf:
I don't know who this guy is

Time you did, my friend

Yours in Christ

Matt [/QUOTE]Do you think I would follow him if I did know him or do you think I would test what he says with Scripture?

Anyone outside of Scripture needs to be tested by the Scriptures.

Remember what Jesus our Lord said.

1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

Matt Black · Feb 21, 2005

As Ignatius was a faithful disciple of the guy who wrote those words you quoted it is most unlikely that he was an antichrist

Yours in Christ

Matt

Matt Black · Feb 21, 2005

Originally posted by DHK:
In truth, the Scriptures need no interpretation, the interpret themselves.... It is a plain and simple statement of Scripture that needs no interpretation and yet it is ignored and disbelieved by those who want to believe otherwise.

This is 'plain' nonsense; if it were true, there would be no disagreements between Christians over the interpretation of Scripture. The fact that there are such disagreements proves that Scripture is anything but 'plain'. QED

Yours in Christ

Matt

jcf · Feb 21, 2005

Originally posted by Matt Black:
[QB]

As Ignatius was a faithful disciple of the guy who wrote those words you quoted it is most unlikely that he was an antichrist /QUOTE]

Most unlikely, is not a sure statement

Even among the twelve.

Matthew 26:20-21 Now when the even was come, he sat down with the twelve. And as they did eat, he said, Verily I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me.

Without testing what he teaches we don't know. But I do know in whom I have believed in Jesus Christ our Lord and thoes He apointed.

Click to expand...

D28guy · Feb 21, 2005

jcf,

"Hi Logan,

Prior to the Nicene Creed the belief was in one God found in the Old Testament, Deuteronomy 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: the Lord our God is one Lord:"

And since the Nicene creed the belief has been...

"Hear O Israel(and anyone else as well)...the Lord our God is one God"

Thats because there is only one God.

The one God is comprised of...

The Father.

Jesus Christ.

The Holy Spirit.

That is who the one God is.

You are 1 person, are you not? Yet you have a head, midsection, and legs. All 3 have functions that only they do. So in that sense they are unique and individual. But you are only one you...not 3.

Mike

jcf · Feb 21, 2005

Originally posted by D28guy:
jcf,

<blockquote>quote:<hr />"Hi Logan,

Prior to the Nicene Creed the belief was in one God found in the Old Testament, Deuteronomy 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: the Lord our God is one Lord:"

And since the Nicene creed the belief has been...

"Hear O Israel(and anyone else as well)...the Lord our God is one God"

Thats because there is only one God.

The one God is comprised of...

The Father.

Jesus Christ.

The Holy Spirit.

That is who the one God is.

You are 1 person, are you not? Yet you have a head, midsection, and legs. All 3 have functions that only they do. So in that sense they are unique and individual. But you are only one you...not 3.

Mike [/QUOTE]Hi Mike,

Jesus and His Father were one in purpose not in a co-eternal, co-equal sense.

Who was left on the cross when the Father forsook?

Jesus was alone.

Jesus died alone.

But the promise of the Father rasied Jesus from the dead and did not let Him see corruption.

Matt Black · Feb 21, 2005

Originally posted by jcf:

Originally posted by Matt Black:
[QB]

As Ignatius was a faithful disciple of the guy who wrote those words you quoted it is most unlikely that he was an antichrist /QUOTE]

Most unlikely, is not a sure statement

Even among the twelve.

Matthew 26:20-21 Now when the even was come, he sat down with the twelve. And as they did eat, he said, Verily I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me.

Without testing what he teaches we don't know. But I do know in whom I have believed in Jesus Christ our Lord and thoes He apointed.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Much much surer than the opinion of anyone posting on this thread some 1900 years later...

Yours in Christ

Matt

Click to expand...

jcf · Feb 21, 2005

Originally posted by Matt Black:

Much much surer than the opinion of anyone posting on this thread some 1900 years later...

Yours in Christ

Matt [/QB]

Hi Matt,

I'm not sure what you mean in your above statement.

The Holy Roman Catholic Church...

jcf

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