The Holy Roman Catholic Church...

[BobRyan]

AS for "being taught by God" (the essence of the New Covenant - see Heb 8) --

1John 2

20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you all know.
21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it, and because no lie is of the truth.
22 Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son.
...
27 As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him.

John 16

12 ""I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.
13 ""But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.
14 ""He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you.
15 "" All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.

Here is the basis for the New Covenant, the Basis for the Priesthood of all believers, the basis for DIRECT connection to God for EACH believer.

The RCC denies access to God BUT THROUGH her priests who stand between God and man as Christ. She denies that the connection identified in scripture above - exists.

In fact the Pope published an encyclical denouncing those who claim to go DIRECTLY to God.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[jcf]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />JCF said
There are many people and angels who have been given the title GOD to act in YAHWEH's authority and power"

In the list you gave - you include Satan and the evil Pharoah. Is THIS the "kind of god" you claim Mary to be??

Aside from the title given to Satan (as an ACTUAL title in the form "god of this world") - Did you find any place else where a TITLE is given of the form "Mother of GOD" - specifically to MARY??

No?

Hmm. How "instructive".

In Christ,

Bob </font>[/QUOTE]Hi Bob,

You must have me confused with someone else. I stand against the teaching that Mary is the mother of God.

Moses was God unto Pharoah is what the Scriptures say.

Satan is the (GOD, Theos) of this world.

We as the church need to define YAHWEH's words in light of all of Scripture.

The word (GOD) is not a personal name but rather it's a title or position of authority. This title of authority was given to many throughout the Scriptrues including Jesus.

To say that Jesus is co-eternal and co-equal with YAHEWH just because YAHWEH gave Jesus the title (GOD) has led us to the wrong conclusion of many things in YAHWEH's word.

 

[D28guy]

Doubting Thomas,

"We have freedom regarding non-essentials such as eating meat or drinking wine,"

No. The problem wasnt eating meat, it was eating meat offered to demons. That made it a real religious "hot button" topic of that day. Another topic covered is keeping sabbath days and festivals, etc. Clearly, these are non-essential issues which people differed regarding. We have them today and God tells us the same thing today.

"So there is not a dichotomy between being "taught by God" and being taught by the men He ordains."

It becomes a problem when an organisation goes beyond simply having good bible teachers in their midst, and doing as the JW's, Mormons, Jim Jones, David Koresh and others do and indoctrinate their victims with the false idea that "we are your God ordained truth dispenser. We are supernaturally protected from error and our interpretations are always correct."

In the evangelical world, its very very normal for teachers to say things like "Dont believe anything I say because i am saying it. Check me out according to the scriptures. If what I'm teaching does not line up...disregard it"

"Even if that group is the Church which is "the ground and pillar of the truth"?

The reason the body of Christ...all the born again people on earth, not one organisation...is the pillar and ground of truth ia because we have the scriptures which are Gods truth standard, we have the Holy Spirit who is the "Spirit of Truth" and our truth "interpreter", and we have Jesus Christ alive in us, and He is "the way, the life, and the truth"

"But how do you determine who the "good bible believing teachers" are

Obviously, we are only interested in teachers who understand that it is only the scriptures that we heed as our inerrant truth standard, and they are sound in the foundational doctrines of the faith.

"Yet other Christians using the same word of God consider some your particular views heretical"

They have that right.

Including your belief in justification through faith alone"

Thats Gods truth not mine, and if they disagree with that they have entered the land of the false cults and heresy.

I said...

"And the way the Catholic Church savagely butchers that passage of scripture for their own gain is as much a crime as how they butcher the passage in James...which does not in the least contradict justification through faith alone.

And you say...

"Which is an incredible statement since James 2:24 says verbatim: "Man is justified by works and not by faith alone."

The only place in the Bible which has phrase "faith alone" specifically denies that we are justified in this way. Conversely, none of the passages you cited earlier prove Sola Fide.

And the Catholic Church savagely butchers those scriptures in order to maintain their false gospel of justification by works.

"The only place in the Bible which has phrase "faith alone" specifically denies that we are justified in this way."

I've heard that mantra a million times. It goes in one ear and out the other. Just as the Jesus is not God mantra does from the JW's. Do you know that they quote lots of scriptures that "prove" that lie?

"Conversely, none of the passages you cited earlier prove Sola Fide."

They thunder home the truth of justification through faith alone...as so many other passages do.

Its so incredibly sad to see folks with the Catholic blinders on....obediently buying into all these lies. I believe it was Hitler who 1st said "If you tell them a lie often enough, they will come to believe its the truth."

Sadly,

Mike

 

[Logan]

D28guy:

It seems to me that you keep avoiding the Scipture Doubting Thomas is using to convey his beliefs. You avoided James 2:24 by saying you heard it a million times. Why not give your interpretation instead? Why is it the only time the Bible uses faith alone it says we are not saved by faith alone?

 

[D28guy]

Logan,

"It seems to me that you keep avoiding the Scipture Doubting Thomas is using to convey his beliefs. You avoided James 2:24 by saying you heard it a million times. Why not give your interpretation instead? Why is it the only time the Bible uses faith alone it says we are not saved by faith alone?"

Needless to say, I am doing nothing of the sort.

But he, and you, must be avoiding the massive amount of scripture I posted...that was just the "tip of the icegerg"...that prove that we are justified through faith alone.

How long will you guys play "look the other way" regarding Gods truth?

Here is a pretty good article regarding the James passages. I hope and pray it helps you guys...

The scriptures clearly teach that we are saved (justified) by faith in Christ and what He has done on the cross. This faith alone saves us. However, we cannot stop here without addressing what James says in James 2:24, "You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone."

There is no contradiction.

All you need to do is look at the context. James chapter 2 has 26 verses: Verses 1-7 instruct us to not show favoritism. Verses 8-13 are comments on the Law. Verses 14-26 are about the relationship between faith and works.
James begins this section by using the example of someone who says he has faith but has no works, "What use is it, my brethren, if a man says he has faith, but he has no works? Can that faith save him?" (James 2:14).

In other words, James is addressing the issue of a dead faith, that is nothing more than a verbal pronouncement. It is empty of life and action. He begins with the negative and demonstrates what an empty faith is (verses 15-17, words without actions). Then he shows that that type of faith isn't much different from the faith of demons (verse 19).

Finally, he gives examples of living faith that is words followed by actions. He writes of Abraham and Rahab as examples of people who demonstrated their faith by their deeds.
In brief, James is examining two kinds of faith: one that leads to godly works and one that does not. One is true, and the other is false. One is dead, the other alive; hence, "Faith without works is dead," (James 2:20).

Also, notice that James actually quotes the same verse that Paul uses to support the teaching of justification by faith in Rom. 4:3. James 2:23 says, "and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, ‘and Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.'" If James was trying to teach a contradictory doctrine of faith and works than the other New Testament writers, then he would not have used Abraham as an example.

Conclusion

Justification is by faith. True faith results in regeneration of the sinner which, in turn, results in good works. But it is not these works that earn our place with God nor keep it. Jesus accomplished that on the cross. All that we need, we have in Jesus. All we need to do to be saved, to be justified, is to truly believe in what God has done for us in Jesus on the cross. This true belief with justification before God and regeneration in the new believer, results in good works.

Link....www.carm.org/doctrine/justification_verses.htm

I very much hope that helps you guys to come to grips with this foundational truth.

God bless,

Mike

 

[D28guy]

While we are on the subject, here are several more scriptures to go with what I have already posted...that make abundantly clear that Gods jusitification is only attained throught faith alone:

John 3:16, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life."

Rom. 3:22, "even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction."

Rom. 3:24, "being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;"

Rom. 3:26, "for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus."

Rom. 3:28-30, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one."

Rom. 4:3, "For what does the Scripture say? "And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."

Rom. 4:5, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,"

Rom. 4:11, "And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also,"

Rom. 4:16, "Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all."

Rom. 5:1, "therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,"

Rom. 5:9, "Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him."

Rom. 9:30, "What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith."

Rom. 9:33, "just as it is written, “Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense, And he who believes in Him will not be disappointed.”

Rom. 10:4, "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes."

Rom. 10:9-10, "that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved; 10 for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."

Rom. 11:6, "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."

Gal. 2:16, "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified."

Gal. 2:21, “I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.”

Gal.3:5-6, "Does He then, who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 6Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."

Gal. 3:8, "And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "All the nations shall be blessed in you."

Gal. 3:14, "in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."

Gal. 3:22, "But the Scripture has shut up all men under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe."

Gal. 3:24, "Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith."

Eph. 1:13, "In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise."

Eph. 2:8, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God."

Phil. 3:9, "and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith."

1 Tim. 1:16, "And yet for this reason I found mercy, in order that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience, as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life."

Who are we going to believe? The lies and heresies that that are spewed forth through the traditions of men...or the truth of God?

With hope,

Mike.

 

[Matt Black]

Originally posted by D28guy:
Matt Black,

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />1. Scripture is the only standard of truth. That's fine as far as it goes, but whose interpretation do you pick from the smorgasbord and on what basis?

The Holy Spirits interpretation.

We are never told to find a group we like the best, and then let them tell us what we believe. Thats cultic. We are called to search and feed on the scriptures with the Holy Spirit as our guide, interpreter, and teacher. I consider the teaching from the pastor and other brothers and sisters at our church. I consider the teaching found in good books by teachers from many persuasions of christian thought. I listen to and consider the teaching found in lots of different radio and TV broadcasts. And I recieve literature and consider what is found in it from many different groups and denominations.

Evangelical, charismatic, pentecostal, fundamentalist, moderate, etc. It makes no difference to me, as long as they hold to justification through faith alone and hold to the scriptures alone as their truth authority.

But I never...under any circumstances...blindly accept anything because so and so teaches it.

2. You allude to the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Trinitarian dogma and the Definition of Chalcedon, which I 100% agree with..."

If I did it was purely accidental.

I dont believe I have ever in my life read a "Nicene-Constantinople" anything, or any kind of the "Chalcedon" creed or teaching.

I dont get into creeds at all.

- but both of those are explicitly extra-Scriptural (although both can be reasonably but not inevitably inferred form Scripture) - so much for the 'sola' bit!

Nope. The "sola" stands! Thats where I go for my truth. Even regarding the books and literature I read and recieve. Its only the scriptural truth found in them that I seek to heed.

Grace and peace,

Mike </font>[/QUOTE]The Holy Spirit's interpretation? Yes, but how do you that interpretation? You use the word "I" a lot in your post ("I consider" etc); on what basis are you arrogating that authority to yourself? How do you know that your interpretation, doubtless guided by the HS, is any more accurate than mine, also guided by the HS?

You did allude to the Nicene etc dogmas when you said that God was three-in-one etc - that is the essence of those dogmas and you won't necessarily arrive at them by sola Scriptura outwith the Church - ask a JW or a Christadelphian...or JCF!

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

[Matt Black]

Originally posted by D28guy:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />"On what basis do you determine what is "falsehood, heresy,...and bad teaching"?"

The word of God.

[ </font>[/QUOTE]Again, I ask the obvious question which you are still ducking: whose interpretation of the Word of God? Yours? Mine?

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

[Matt Black]

Mike, what about Matt 25:31-46 -plenty about works there, nothing about faith?

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Originally posted by D28guy:
[QB] While we are on the subject, here are several more scriptures to go with what I have already posted...that make abundantly clear that Gods jusitification is only attained throught faith alone:

We'll see how "abundantly clear" this may or may not be...

John 3:16, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life."

Where does is say we are justified by "faith alone" here?

Rom. 3:22, "even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction."

Or here?

Rom. 3:24, "being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;"

Or here?

Rom. 3:26, "for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus."

Or here?

Rom. 3:28-30, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one."

Here is says we are justified apart from the works of the LAW (not works in general), but it still doesn't say we are justifed by faith alone.

In Roman 2:5-10, Paul informs us God will render to each of us according to our works or deeds:
"Eternal life" ,"glory, honor, and peace" to those who works what is good.
"Indignation, wrath, tribulaton, and anguish" for everyone who does evil.

Rom. 4:3, "For what does the Scripture say? "And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."

Still no mention of "faith alone" (And compare with James 2)

Rom. 4:16, "Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all."

Still no mention of "faith alone" (Paul continues to contrast faith with the works of the LAW, particularly circumscision.)

Rom. 5:1, "therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,"

But not by "faith alone".

Rom. 9:30, "What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith."

But not by faith "alone". The Gentiles are contrasted with the Jews who thought by keeping the works of the Law they could automatically merit salvation. Paul says otherwise.

Rom. 10:4, "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes."

Yep...out goes the Old Covenant, and in comes the New. But still no mention of "justified by faith alone."

Rom. 11:6, "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."

In context of the book, Paul is again contrast grace with the works of Law, but still no mention of justification by faith alone.

Gal. 2:16, "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified."

Again, notice what is being contrasted is "faith" and "works of THE LAW", not works of loving obedience (See James 2:24 and Romans 2:5-10)

Gal.3:5-6, "Does He then, who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 6Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."

Ditto here

Gal. 3:14, "in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."

But, sadly, again no mention of faithalone.

Gal. 3:24, "Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith."

(I am still waiting to see "faith alone[/b"])

Phil. 3:9, "and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith."

Still faith contrasted with law, but not faith alone (apart from works of love)

Who are we going to believe? The lies and heresies that that are spewed forth through the traditions of men...or the truth of God?

I think I'll believe the truth of God over the traditions of men, including those which originiated in the early 16th century.

 

[BobRyan]

jcf --

To say that Jesus is co-eternal and co-equal with YAHEWH just because YAHWEH gave Jesus the title (GOD) has led us to the wrong conclusion of many things in YAHWEH's word.

This cuts against a lot of denominational lines. Maybe as its own thread?

Infant Baptism is an error of the Catholic church in my view - but there are so many non-Catholic groups that adopt it - it does not work well in a focus on Catholicism.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

The RCC is the only church today that "Defends" the idea of slaughtering the saints during the dark ages.

It must own up to its work - and denounce its infallible rulings endorsing the slaughter of the saints.

Simply "making up bad names for the saints" is not a valid "excuse" for slaughtering them.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[jcf]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> jcf --

To say that Jesus is co-eternal and co-equal with YAHEWH just because YAHWEH gave Jesus the title (GOD) has led us to the wrong conclusion of many things in YAHWEH's word.

This cuts against a lot of denominational lines. Maybe as its own thread?

In Christ,

Bob </font>[/QUOTE]Hi Bob,

The co-eternal, co-equal teaching of a trinity God is the foundation of the RCC. It was formed through the Nicene Creed. As a result of this creed a curse was put on anyone who did not receieve it. This resulted in the murder of many Christians.

My question is, what murdering spirit was behind this Nicene Creed which made Jesus equal with the Father and co-eternal? Who is this spirit that tells us Jesus is the eternally begotten Son the beginingless begining Son. This neither makes sense nor is it scriptual and the fruit of it is the murdering of many bretheren.

1 John 3:11-15 For this is the message that you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another, not as Cain who was of the wicked one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his works were evil and his brother's righteous. Do not marvel, my brethren, if the world hates you. We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death. Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him .

 

[Logan]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
It must own up to its work - and denounce its infallible rulings endorsing the slaughter of the saints.

You state so many untruths about the RCC, why dont you give us the "infallible" decree and when it was issued? Surely you know it and wouldnt purposely state a falsehood...would you??

 

[DHK]

Mike has done a great job in "interpreting" the Scriptures. In truth, the Scriptures need no interpretation, the interpret themselves. Notice that Mike gave a long list of Scripture how we are justifed by faith. It is a plain and simple statement of Scripture that needs no interpretation and yet it is ignored and disbelieved by those who want to believe otherwise. Prejudices and biases get in one's way.
We are justified by faith. It does not say faith and works. It says faith; faith and....., and nothing more. That means faith alone to those that who might be grammatically challenged. It doesn't have to say "alone" to mean "alone." The Scripture doesn't have to use the word "trinity" in order to teach the concept of the trinity. Or must we present the same type of arguments of the J.W.'s. "The word is not in the Bible, and therefore it is not true." That really is a childish argument IMO. And yet I have heard it countless of times.
There is no clearer passage then:

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Notice:
It is by grace: Salvation is all of grace--the free unmerited favor of God. That is what grace is. It is free. It cannot be worked for. You don't work for the rain and sunshine. It is of the grace of God that He gives it to you whether you deserve it or not. It is free. Salvation is free. It is all by God's grace.

It is through faith--Alone is inferred. It doesn't have to be said outright. It doesn't say faith plus anything. It says faith, and then there is a stop (semi-colon). Nothing more to add. When there is nothing more to add to faith it is faith alone. Let's use a little reasoning here. But Paul didn't want you to misunderstand him, so he went further.

Not of yourselves--There is nothing you can do anyway. It is by grace through faith. It is not of you (yourself). There is no work--not baptism, not the Lord's Table, not any sacrament or ordinance, not being a member of a church--absolutely nothing that you can do to merit salvation. It is not of yourself.

It is the gift of God--You don't work for a gift. If a gift has to be earned it is not a gift anymore. A gift is given out of the graciousness of one's heart--hence grace. It is free. You give children and others gifts on their birthdays and other occasions. Do you make the children pay for the gifts?? Do they have to work for their own gift. No, it is free. Likewise salvation is a free gift.

Not of works--How plainly can it be said? It is not of works. Does not that sahy "faith alone?" By grace, through faith, not of works = faith alone. This is not rocket science. It is really fairly simple. Why do people demand the word "alone" must be in the verse? There are other word constructions that plainly teach the same thing? Why do people demand that the word "trinity" be in the Bible to teach the trinity? It is the same kind of childish question. Why must the word rapture be in the Bible to teach the rapture? Shall I continue? Salvation is not of works. Why? The Bible says it is not of works. Why does the Bible say "it is not of works?" Paul gives us the answer:

"lest any man should boast"--It wouldn't be much of a Heaven if we had a bunch of proud people there saying, "Look what I have done, look what I have done" in Heaven. It is not of works, it is all of the grace of God--the shed blood of the Lord Jesus Christ paid it all--not baptism, not works, not anything. Jesus paid it all. I simply accept what He did on the cross by faith, and faith alone.
DHK

 

[jcf]

Originally posted by DHK:
Mike has done a great job in "interpreting" the Scriptures. In truth, the Scriptures need no interpretation, the interpret themselves. Notice that Mike gave a long list of Scripture how we are justifed by faith. It is a plain and simple statement of Scripture that needs no interpretation and yet it is ignored and disbelieved by those who want to believe otherwise. Prejudices and biases get in one's way.
We are justified by faith. It does not say faith and works. It says faith; faith and....., and nothing more. That means faith alone to those that who might be grammatically challenged. It doesn't have to say "alone" to mean "alone." The Scripture doesn't have to use the word "trinity" in order to teach the concept of the trinity. Or must we present the same type of arguments of the J.W.'s. "The word is not in the Bible, and therefore it is not true." That really is a childish argument IMO. And yet I have heard it countless of times.
There is no clearer passage then:

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Notice:
It is by grace: Salvation is all of grace--the free unmerited favor of God. That is what grace is. It is free. It cannot be worked for. You don't work for the rain and sunshine. It is of the grace of God that He gives it to you whether you deserve it or not. It is free. Salvation is free. It is all by God's grace.

It is through faith--Alone is inferred. It doesn't have to be said outright. It doesn't say faith plus anything. It says faith, and then there is a stop (semi-colon). Nothing more to add. When there is nothing more to add to faith it is faith alone. Let's use a little reasoning here. But Paul didn't want you to misunderstand him, so he went further.

Not of yourselves--There is nothing you can do anyway. It is by grace through faith. It is not of you (yourself). There is no work--not baptism, not the Lord's Table, not any sacrament or ordinance, not being a member of a church--absolutely nothing that you can do to merit salvation. It is not of yourself.

It is the gift of God--You don't work for a gift. If a gift has to be earned it is not a gift anymore. A gift is given out of the graciousness of one's heart--hence grace. It is free. You give children and others gifts on their birthdays and other occasions. Do you make the children pay for the gifts?? Do they have to work for their own gift. No, it is free. Likewise salvation is a free gift.

Not of works--How plainly can it be said? It is not of works. Does not that sahy "faith alone?" By grace, through faith, not of works = faith alone. This is not rocket science. It is really fairly simple. Why do people demand the word "alone" must be in the verse? There are other word constructions that plainly teach the same thing? Why do people demand that the word "trinity" be in the Bible to teach the trinity? It is the same kind of childish question. Why must the word rapture be in the Bible to teach the rapture? Shall I continue? Salvation is not of works. Why? The Bible says it is not of works. Why does the Bible say "it is not of works?" Paul gives us the answer:

"lest any man should boast"--It wouldn't be much of a Heaven if we had a bunch of proud people there saying, "Look what I have done, look what I have done" in Heaven. It is not of works, it is all of the grace of God--the shed blood of the Lord Jesus Christ paid it all--not baptism, not works, not anything. Jesus paid it all. I simply accept what He did on the cross by faith, and faith alone.
DHK

Hi DHK,

Grace is the means or attitude by which YAHWEH has given, not the gift itself.

Faith is the gift that saves and faith is, that which is believed. If we live by the faith of Christ which comes to us from YAHWEH we will live.

Look at it this way, you're cold so by grace I freely give you a coat. If you don't put the coat on you will stay cold.

Ephesians 4:21-24 If so be that ye have heard (faith) him, and have been taught (faith) by him, as the truth (faith) is in Jesus: That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Colossians 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge (faith) after the image of him that created him:

YAHWEH has created a new man through Jesus, a new creation. YAHWEH will do the same for you through Christ, the new man.

As far as people being proud in heaven. First of all you will be by yourself in heaven because God's people will be on the earth. Secondly we will be proud in a humble way because the King of Kings and Lord of Lords had just told us, "Well done my good and faithful servant."

Now as far as the trinity teaching goes. Why do you make Jesus a sinner by making Him equal with YAHWEH. Jesus is the second Adam who, by His obedinece, humbled Himself and didn't make Himself equal to YAHWEH as Adam did.

Philippians 2:6-7 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.

We need to do the same. We being in the form or image of YAHWEH need to humble ourselves and take on the form of a servant to YAHWEH and each other.

2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

This is not a denomination, it's a mindset.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by jcf:

Grace is the means or attitude by which YAHWEH has given, not the gift itself.

No it isn't, and you won't find that teaching in the Bible. First don't go changing or redefining words. Words have meanings for a purpose. The meaning of grace is: "free unmerited favor." That is all it is, the free unmerited favor of God. When applied to salvation, it is the free gift of salvation provided through the shed blood of Christ who atoned for our sins by taking our place on the cross, taking the punishment that we deserve. That is grace. Freely giving us the gift of salvation even though we don't deserve it. It is the free unmerited favor of God. It is the gift of God (Eph.2:8,9; Rom.6:23)

Faith is the gift that saves and faith is, that which is believed. If we live by the faith of Christ which comes to us from YAHWEH we will live.

Again words have meanings. Don't change them. Faith, that is saving faith, is not a gift. Faith is simply confidence or trust. It is not a gift. Anyone can have faith. Everytime I put my key into my ignition and turn it I have faith that my car will start. Sometimes my car will not start. But my car is fallible because it was made by man who also is fallible. I can put my faith or confidence in an infallible Word, given to me by an infallible perfect God, and know that He will not fail me. Faith is simply confidence. It is based on how well you know or are confident of the person. I can put more confidence or trust or faith in the words or promises of my wife (because she has lived with me for so long), then I can with you, or a complete stranger off the street. How well do you know God? How well do you know his Word? Faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God. Why? You become more confident, more acquainted with God, the more you learn about him, the more you hear His Word. Faith is not a gift. It is confidence in the word of another; in this case the Word of God.

"Believe (have faith) in the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved." Acts 16:31
"For God so loved the world that whosoever believeth...John 3:16 (again--have faith)
We are saved by faith--confidence in the saving work of Christ, that what he has done on the cross is sufficient in and of itself to save me.

You cannot live by the faith of Christ until you have Christ. That part doesn't make sense. You first must be saved. That requires faith--not a gift--faith, trust, confidence. No one is going to give it to you. You have to accept it on your own. Christ is not going to give you the faith that you need to accept His gift of salvation. His Spirit will convict you. But you have to make up your mind whether to accept or reject him. And that is your decision, your faith, your trust, your confidence.

Look at it this way, you're cold so by grace I freely give you a coat. If you don't put the coat on you will stay cold.

And if one doesn't take the action of trusting Christ by faith alone he spends an eternity in Hell--coat or no coat. What is offered freely by grace must be appropriated by faith.

YAHWEH has created a new man through Jesus, a new creation. YAHWEH will do the same for you through Christ, the new man.

Unless a man is born again, through Christ as defined in the Bible, Jehvah has not created anything new in a man. You must be born again. That is the first requirement.
As far as I am concerned I was born again, made a new creation in Christ more than 30 years ago.

As far as people being proud in heaven. First of all you will be by yourself in heaven because God's people will be on the earth. Secondly we will be proud in a humble way because the King of Kings and Lord of Lords had just told us, "Well done my good and faithful servant."

There will be a Millennial Kingdom for a thousand years. I did not specify which time period I was referring to. The Bible also speaks of Heaven. And I won't be the only one there. If you have doubts about going there, I would suggest that you first:
"Examine yourself to see whether you be in the faith."
Make sure as Jesus said: "You must be born again."

Now as far as the trinity teaching goes. Why do you make Jesus a sinner by making Him equal with YAHWEH. Jesus is the second Adam who, by His obedinece, humbled Himself and didn't make Himself equal to YAHWEH as Adam did.

Without getting into an argument on the trinity, I will just say this much. If you do not believe in the trinity, that Jesus Christ is the second person of the triune Godhead, that He is God incarnate, then you do not believe in the same Jesus that I do, nor in the same Jesus as defined in the Bible. Make sure of your salvation.
DHK

 

[Logan]

I think the problem here is that the term "faith alone" or sola fide is that it implies that one needs to just say he believes and not do anything else. The fact is if one actually believes in Christ, he will be obedient to Him. You can't have one without the other.

DHK:

Your take on Ephesians 2:8-9 is a good one. I think the term "living faith" would be better than inserting "faith alone."
Paul contrasts the phrase "not because of works" with grace here to point out that man cannot "boast" in anything apart from grace. Human nature apart from grace has no claim to heaven. In other owrds, human nature apart from grace cannot obligate God into giving a man entrance into heavenly glory with Himself. God offers humanity hope in Christ in overcoming the power of sin and death; for Christ through the Cross has conquered their power. Christ offers His grace as the solution to the problem of sin. Notice it is the boastful, proud man with whom Paul is concerned. This man thinks he can obligate God by his human works, forcing God to remit payment for something earned. This system of legalistic works righteousness is what Paul is consistently condemning. Humanity cannot bargain on contract their way into heaven. Salvation is a gift freely offered by a merciful God, not a wage or salary earned. Notice in verse 10 there is a different type of works Paul sees as essential; the good works of those created in Christ Jesus. Therefore, works done as a believer, by grace through faith are important. It is grace impowered works vs. works apart from grace which we can see being distinguished. In verse 10 we see God prepared for us good works in advance that we might walk in them. This is so great a purpose; to recreate us, so to speak, that we might image Him.

So I suggest we can see in this passage we are saved by grace alone, through faith, but not faith alone.

 

[jcf]

Originally posted by DHK:
[QB]

Words have meanings for a purpose. The meaning of grace is: "free unmerited favor." That is all it is, the free unmerited favor of God.

Nowhere in the bible does it teach that grace is unmerited favor, this is a teaching of man.

Grace is the means by which God gives. We don't deserve the offer of salvation but to say that grace is unmerited favor means you do nothing to earn it and neither can you do anything to fall from it, it's unmerited. Is this what we find in the Scriptures?

Galatians 5:4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

We can fall from God's grace which tells me their is a condition to recieving it.

Acts 13:43 Now when the congregation had broken up, many of the Jews and devout proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas, who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.

We have to continue in the grace of God which tells me there is something within grace that we seek.

So to just say that grace is unmetrited favor is to lose a very important truth regarding the work of salvation.

Again words have meanings. Don't change them. Faith, that is saving faith, is not a gift. Faith is simply confidence or trust. It is not a gift. Anyone can have faith.

The word (faith) carries a few thoughts. The faith that saves is a noun, it's something we possess not something we do.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance (noun) of things hoped for, the evidence (noun) of things not seen.

Belief is the verb by which we grab ahold of faith.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ ...

Faith is that which we believe and that which we believe we obey and that is the words of Christ to the saving of our souls.

Hebrews 5:8-9 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

"For God so loved the world that whosoever believeth...John 3:16 (again--have faith) We are saved by faith--confidence in the saving work of Christ, that what he has done on the cross is sufficient in and of itself to save me.

You left out a very important word in the above verse...whosoever believeth in Him SHOULD not perish.

When we believe we are believing into Jesus. When we believe into Jesus we put on Christ by obeying Him.

Galatians 3:26-27 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

You cannot live by the faith of Christ until you have Christ. That part doesn't make sense. You first must be saved. That requires faith--not a gift--faith, trust, confidence. No one is going to give it to you. You have to accept it on your own. Christ is not going to give you the faith that you need to accept His gift of salvation. His Spirit will convict you. But you have to make up your mind whether to accept or reject him. And that is your decision, your faith, your trust, your confidence.

You cannot live by faith unless you hear YAHWEH's words.

Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

The words of YAHWEH came to us through the prophets in the OT but in these last days they have come to us through YAHWEH's Son.

Hebrews 1:1-2 God, who at various times and in different ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets. has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;

For those who may be thinking, YAHWEH made the worlds through Jesus, He is not speaking of the world we now live in but rather the world or age to come.

Hebrews 2:5 For it was not to angels that God subjected the world to come, of which we are speaking.

Without getting into an argument on the trinity, I will just say this much. If you do not believe in the trinity, that Jesus Christ is the second person of the triune Godhead, that He is God incarnate, then you do not believe in the same Jesus that I do, nor in the same Jesus as defined in the Bible. Make sure of your salvation.
DHK

The co-eternal, co-equal trinity God was formed through the Nicene Creek years after Jesus and the Apostles. So the Jesus that I believe in was taught by Jesus Himself and the Apostles. The requirment for the different Jesus is that it's not the same Jesus which was taught by the Apostles.

2 Corinthians 11:4 For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached...

 

[Logan]

Originally posted by jcf:
The co-eternal, co-equal trinity God was formed through the Nicene Creek years after Jesus and the Apostles. So the Jesus that I believe in was taught by Jesus Himself and the Apostles. The requirment for the different Jesus is that it's not the same Jesus which was taught by the Apostles.

This is not true. This belief was well established prior to the Nicene Creed.
I will be happy to provide quotes from the Church Fathers...prior to the Nicene Creed...It was well established that Jesus Christ is God in the Flesh.