Comparative analysis: Matthew 24, 25 & 1 Thessalonians 4

Mel Miller: //And this quote utterly distorts I Thess.4:13-17:
______
Me4Him: //Different words have different meaning to differentiate
between different events, and if you try to lump them
all together as one events, you get where you're at, "".//
______
Mel Miller: //Brother, your view that the resurrection and
rapture do not occur at the same time is a
total contradiction that "God will bring the
souls of those who die in the Lord with Jesus
and those who are alive and survive will be
caught up with them (the dead in Christ) to
meet the Lord in the air".//

There is absolutely NO CONTRADITION.
I don't see what you are talking about 'total contradiction'???
At the pretribulation rapture/resurrection, (when Jesus
comes to get us, not when He comes to destroy Antichrist
and set up His Millinnial Messanic Kingdom) Jesus brings the
souls of those in heaven already with him so their soul
can inhabit the body He resurrects. The goal of the
pretribulation rapture/resurrection is to unite the body and
souls of the Dead in Christ in Resurrection; to take the
Living in Christ out of the world and to heaven in Rapture.
Then the Antichrist Kingdom is free to play out God's punishment
of the world in the Tribulation Judgement's:
the Tribulation Period (7-years) and the Great Tribulation
Period (3½-years).

Strange, calling Biblical Exegesis which Exhorts: that which
is contradictory???

Mel Miller: //You separate the resurrection and rapture of all the Saints
by claiming they are not part of the same event.
Jesus promises to "raise up all and
every believer on the last day". John 6:38-40.//

This is no contradicion. The Lord does "raise up all and
every believer on the last day". That 'last day' is
the 7-year Tribulation Period: the pretribualtion rapture
is at the beginning of the 'day'; the Glorious Return of our
Blessed Lord and Savior to destroy the Antichrist, the works
of the Antichrist, and to set up the Millinnial Messanic
Kingdom is at the end of the 'day.'
There is no contradiction.

As always, if you use the right definition of words, then
you get understandings of the Prophecies of the Bible that
encourage and uplift. Or would you rather wallow in
martrdom self-pity?

Mel Miller: //Paul had just written that we should be "worthy
of Christ at His Presence when He comes with
ALL the Saints". I Thess.3:13. He cannot come
with all the Saints if the bodies of martyred souls
in heaven are not "resurrected" first; but yet are raised
up at the same time as we who survive to the End
are "caught up to meet them in the air". I Thess.4:13-17.//

I still can't figure out what you are saying, even though
this seems to be about the 8th time you tryed to express it.
There is no need for God to make the living saints go
throgh the period when hell is brought to earth (AKA: the
Tribulation period, the Wrath of God, etc).
So your point, if any, is NOT MADE.

Mel Miller: //My friend, you base you "differentation" between the day
for rapture and the day for resurrection on the false premise
that "resurrection" refers
only to those who are ON THE EARTH!!!!!!!!!//

Quote Me4Him:
_____
The rapture "IS NOT" a resurrection, when they come out
of the grave they go directly to heaven, they're not
"back on the earth, alive", at that time, when they
return with Jesus is the "FIRST RESURRECTION", because now they are
"Back on earth, alive".
_____

Mel and Me4HIm are using two different definitons of
'rapture' and 'resurrection'. I'll repeat the defintions;


Rapture1 - those living are transformed into new glorified
bodies IAW 1 Cor 15

Resurrection1 - dead bodies are reunited with their souls
on earth and brought back to life by transforming into new glorified
bodies IAW 1 Cor 15

Resurrection2 - An event in which Jesus & his helper angels
perform a Rapture1 and a Resurrection1 and take folks
to earth to set up the Millinnial Messanic Kingdom.

Rapture2 - An event in which Jesus performs a Rapture1 and
a Resurrection1 and takes folks to heaven for the
Judgment Seat of Christ and the Wedding Supper of the Lamb.

The very definitions of 'resurrection2' and 'rapture2'
that Me4Him uses presupposes the duality of the two events.
So obviously he can prove there are two events.

Mel and I tend to use 'rapture1' and 'resurrection1'.
That is what i'm talking about when i say
"the pretribulation rapture/resurrection" (I used to say
the pretribulation rapture (meaning rapture2) but
some were confused because the passage in 1 Thess 4 says
the resurrection1 preceeds the rapture1.

Strange how He4Him 'pulled one over' with his definitions.
The awake would have caught right one; those who don't
read carefully what others are generally slow to catch on.

To bad 80% of the USA high school mathematics teachers aren't
qualified or allowed to teach LOGIC. Even less of the
debate teachers in high schools are qualified to teach logic.

Here is a free debate rule:
The person who quits talking (here posting) first, LOOSES the debate.

Mel Miller: //In fact, nothing more can be discussed!!!
I reached that same conclusion when you insisted
that, in Matt.24:31, Jesus meant He is coming
"BEFORE instead of AFTER the great tribulation".//

God sent me to minister unto you.
I answered His call.
You rejected the message.
Who has the greater condemnation?

God sent Me4Him to minister unto us.
I listened to his message and saw some Biblical eschatological
Truths I'd never seen before.
Others reject his 'drawings' as being foolish.
Me4Him answered God's call.
His message was rejcted.
Who has the greater condemnation?

BTW, I'm thinking somebody didn't understand my
explanation that Matthew 24:31 is NOT covered by the
'imediately after' of Matthe 24:29. I can understand
rejecting the idea as false; i can't understand not
figuring it out

BTW, I've always (nearly in every post) pointed out
that Jesus comes BEFORE the great Tribulation
and AFTER the great Tribulation - not 'instead of' but
'AND'. Before the Tribulation Period Judgement
Jesus comes to get His own; after the Tribulation Period
Judgement Jesus comes to 'get' the Antichrist and his helpers.

Calvibaptist: //So, no Christians have ever been killed since
the day of Pentecost? Wow. That's an amazing belief you
have of what Jesus meant in Matthew.//

It must be good to have a heavy exercise regium of
JUMPING TO CONCLUSIONS. That and extreame judgementalism,
you should stay thin and trim???

Me4Him: //Jesus said the gates of hell could "NEVER"
prevail against the church, Satan must "FLEE" from
church saint because of the present of the Holy ghost.//

Amen, Brother Me4Him - we* got the head devil on the run!!!

* we = Jesus, Bro. Me4HIm, and Ed - of course, Bro. Me4HIm
and Ed are optional; Jesus is mandatory!

 

Ed Edwards,

You are claiming you "don't understand your
own contradictions". Let me explain so you
can understand what you haven't yet admitted:

Quote:
_______________________________________________
"The goal of the pretribulation rapture/ resurrection is to unite the body and
souls of the Dead in Christ in Resurrection; to take the Living in Christ out of the world and to heaven in Rapture.

"Then the Antichrist Kingdom is free to play out God's punishment of the world in the Tribulation Judgement's: the Tribulation Period (7-years) and the Great Tribulation Period (3½-years)".
_______________________________________________

Here is your contradiction of Paul and Jesus:

Quote:
_______________________________________________
This occurs "when Jesus comes to get us, not when He comes to destroy Antichrist and set up His Millinnial Messanic Kingdom".
_______________________________________________

Paul does not state "this occurs before the
tribulation." You are "adding to scripture"
what Paul did NOT state, an action which John
in Revelation condemns in the strongest terms!

Your statement above contradicts Paul because
"AT THE PRESENCE OF JESUS he writes that God will bring the souls of THE DEAD IN CHRIST WITH HIM" from heaven. I Thess.3:13; I Thess.4:13-14.

Jesus Himself taught that He will "gather the elect from earth to heaven in the days AFTER the
great tribulation AT HIS PRESENCE when tribes of
earth see Him coming in the clouds" (TRUTH #ONE).
Mark 13:27.

You have distorted the truth by eliminating
the souls of Tribulation Martyrs whom "God will
bring with Jesus at His PRESENCE AFTER THE GREAT TRIBULATION (TRUTH #TWO). I Thess.3:13; I Thess.4:13-14; Mark 13:24; Matt.24:29-31.

Not only will Jesus raise up and gather "every
Trib-Martyr when the Tribes SEE Him coming in the
clouds", but Jesus also states that "as the
lightning comes out of the east and shines to
the west, so shall the PRESENCE (parousia) of
the Son of Man be". Matt.24:27.

AFTER Jesus Himself (3rd person sing) "gathers every believer from earth to heaven (Mark 13: 27; John 6:38-40) to fulfill the Father's will
ON THE LAST DAY, the tribes of earth will mourn while the angels complete the "gathering" of both the living and dead whom Jesus will have just raised up and gathered "from the earth".

You contradict Paul that Trib-Martyrs will
come WITH Jesus (I Thess.3;13; I Thess.4:13-14)and you contradict Jesus that this occurs at
HIS PRESENCE "in the days after the great tribulation". Mark 13:24-27; Matt.24:27-31.

And you twist the truth by claiming
Matt.24:31 refers to a Pre-Trib Rapture.

So you refuse to acknowledge the truth about
the Trib Martyrs coming WITH Jesus at His
PRESENCE according to Paul and that Jesus will gather them at His PRESENCE when the tribes of earth see Him coming in the clouds!

My Brother, in humility, let me warn that I think your denial of truth may not be forgiven short of personal confession!!

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

Rapture is caught up, taken up off the earth, both living/dead.

The Jews were promised a "Resurrection of the dead" (living not included) (back on earth, alive) but were never promised a "rapture", that was only revealed to the church by Paul,

The church (living/dead) is taken off the earth in the rapture, we meet Jesus in the air, not "ON THE EARTH" and return to heaven.

When Jesus returns "TO THE EARTH", no saved is "taken off the earth", because Jesus is "BACK ON THE EARTH", that is a "Resurrection of the dead", not a Rapture, those saved/living at Jesus's return remain on the earth for the MK, they're not taken off the earth.

Jesus having resurrected the OT saints when he ascended, and the church in the rapture, only leaves the Trib saints here on earth, those killed will return with Jesus and the OT/Church saints, and the survivors of the trib will remain here on earth when he returns for the MK.

I'd suggest learning the different between

a "Rapture of the living /dead off the earth

a "Resurrection of only the dead, back on the earth".

 

Me4Him,

A lot of speculative, pointless semantics!

Nothing you write disproves the teaching of
Jesus and Paul that "all believers will rise
up and be gathered unto Jesus in the air on
the last day at His Presence, on one of the
days AFTER the great tribulation when He comes in great power and glory to reward every believer and to destroy the destroyers of the
earth at His Presence"!!! John 6:38-40,44,54; Mark 13:24-27; I Thess.3:13; 2 Thess.2:1; I Thess.1:7-10; Matt.16:27; Rev.22:12; Rev.11:18.

Once again, you fail to point to a single
scripture; but just to preconceived notions
and speculative private "charts".

And BTW, I wish you would look up the correct
use of words which in almost every post are
disconcerting and show lack of good grammar.
Suggest you let someone read your posts before
sending them:

Quote:
______________________________________________
"I'd suggest learning the *different* between

a "Rapture of the living /dead off the earth
a "Resurrection of only the dead, back on the earth".
______________________________________________

There is no *difference* with both taking place
"ON THE SAME DAY as Christ's apocalypse" (Greek) where those "left behind" ARE NOT THE BELIEVERS
AS YOU CLAIM ABOVE. Luke 17:27-30.

My friend, your following quote is heretical:
_______________________________________________
"Jesus having resurrected the OT saints when he ascended, and the church in the rapture, only leaves the Trib saints here on earth".
_______________________________________________
This is a complete denial of John 6:38-40 when
Jesus comes to do "His Father's WILL on the
last day" and of Mark 13:24-27 where "He gathers us from the earth on one of the days after the tribulation"!

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

Here's a chart I recently drew, and it uses the same basic "Diagram" depicting the scriptures as that all the others charts use to describe different aspect of scripture, a "FACT" you've quite obviously overlooked as proof of their validity.

 

Me4Him,

You just don't "get it" do you!!

Your chart shows "all the saints coming with
Christ" after the Tribulation to fulfill I Thess.3:13. Yet you have stated Trib-Saints will be LEFT ON THE EARTH at that time!

Because you have set your mind to the false
teaching of Trib-Saints being LEFT ON EARTH
instead of being among ALL the Saints coming
with Jesus, you deny the truth Jesus taught:

"The Son of Man will raise up every believer on the last day and He will gather the elect from
the earth on one of the days after the great
tribulation". John 6:38-40; Mark 13:24-27.

But what's the use! You refuse to believe it!

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

Mel, Israel doesn't come to believe in Jesus until during the trib, that's why they aren't rapture with the church.

It is "DURING THE TRIB" Jews come to believe in Jesus, NOT BEFORE".

Israel enter/suffers the trib as "Chastisement" for rejecting Jesus.

Isa 30:26 Moreover the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold, as the light of seven days, in the day (Trib period) that the LORD bindeth up the breach of his people, and healeth the stroke of their wound.

As I said, if you don't understand "WHY" things occur, you don't understand "WHAT" is occurring.

 

Consider this verse from Matthew 24:4-14.
Matthew 24:4-15 are signs that the Church Age
(AKA: Time of the Gentiles) continues.

Matthew 24:14 (HCSB):

This good news of the kingdom will be proclaimed
in all the world as a testimony to all nations.
And then the end will come.


Items quoted from THE ALMANAC OF THE CHRISTIAN WORLD,
1991-1992 Edition (Tyndale, 1990), page 305+.

61AD - Colossians 1:6 (HCSB):
the gospel that has come to you. It is bearing fruit
and growing all over the world, just as it has
among you since the day you heard it and recognized
God's grace in the truth.

c. 140AD - Hermas writes: "The Son of God ... has
been preached to the ends of the earth" (Shepherd
of Hermas).

197AD - Tertullian (c160-222) ... writes ... "There
is no nation indeed which is not Christian" ...

c. 205AD - Clement of Alexandria (c155-215) ... writes
"The whole world, with Athens and Greece, has already
become the domain of the Word."

c. 310 - Eusebius of Caesarea (c265-339) writes ...
""The doctrine of the Savious
has irradiated the whole Oikumene
(whole inhabited earth)"

378 - Jerome (c345-419) writes: "From India to Britian, all
nations resound with the death and resurrection of CHrist".
estimates 1.9 million Christians to have been marytred
since AD33 (out of 120 million Christians). ...

etc.

 

Me4Him: //As I said, if you don't understand "WHY" things occur, you don't understand "WHAT" is occurring.//

Amen, Brother Me4Him -- Preach it!

 

Mel

Jesus comes "riding on an ass"
Jesus comes as "Bridegroom". (rapture)
Jesus comes as "Lord of Lords". (Day of lord)

The OT describes the messiah (Jesus) lowly riding on an ass and as Lord of lord over the whole earth, some Jews actually believe there are either two messiahs or two coming, like us, there's disagreement among them also, but there is no description in the OT of a rapture other than Enoch/Elijah.

Zec 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.

Zec 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

Re 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him,


Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east,

Zec 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

Jesus said if the world was his kingdom, his servants would fight, they didn't the first time he came, but they will when he returns.

Jesus/church/rapture was not revealed to Israel in the OT, there's no mention of them because Israel rejected this part of the scriptures, mainly the NT,

and If you'll go back and look at the chart, you'll see the "time of the Gentiles" is the 5th, 6th day, which is the time Israel is blinded until the fulness of the Gentiles.

Ho 6:2 After two days (5th, 6th) will he revive us: in the third day (7th) he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.

Don't include Jesus/Gentiles/rapture in event's of the OT church, (seventy weeks)

Don't Include Israel in events of the NT Church, (Bridegroom coming/rapture)

The NT church has no part in any of the seventy weeks determined on the OT church, Israel.

The Gentiles were "not a people" (Blind) when God led Israel, now Israel is blind while Jesus leads the Gentiles, and when Jesus/church/rapture is taken out of the way, the blinder will be taken off Israel.

There's some things that are as plain as the "nose on your face", when you take off the "Rose colored Glasses".

 

Ed, as long as you keep posting these huge walls of text, you'll only get people like Mel and maybe Me4 to respond. I'd love to respond to some of the things you post but, quite frankly, it would take me an hour to address what you put in a single post, let alone the points you raise over a series of posts.

That's okay with me. But if you want to chat about these things with more than just a couple of people, I suggest you get more pithy.

 

Ed, as long as you keep posting these huge walls of text, you'll only get people like Mel and maybe Me4 to respond. I'd love to respond to some of the things you post but, quite frankly, it would take me an hour to address what you put in a single post, let alone the points you raise over a series of posts.

That's okay with me. But if you want to chat about these things with more than just a couple of people, I suggest you get more pithy. </font>[/QUOTE]Pick the point that the most interest you, time spend learning here is as good, if not better, than any other place.

 

things one needs to know about 'AND'

Ed speaking of the rapture event (rapture/resurrection) prior
to the Tribulation period:
//This occurs "when Jesus comes to get us, not when He comes
to destroy Antichrist and set up His Millinnial Messanic Kingdom".//

Mel Miller: //Paul does not state "this occurs before the
tribulation." You are "adding to scripture"
what Paul did NOT state, an action which John
in Revelation condemns in the strongest terms!//

Yes, Revelation condemns adding to scripture. That has not
taken place in my posts. The Bible recommends that I explain
in modern terms what the Bible says, indeed DEMANDS that
I exhort, edify, instruct and God called me to do that.
And I'll do it, as best I can.

I've shown uptopic 13 ways that are different between
the pretribulation rapture event and the postrilbulation
Second Coming of Christ event. I've shown uptopic
three similarities between the two events.
I've shown uptopic the two events happen on the same 7-year-day.
(Do not confuse with the 1,000 year 'day' of 2 Peter 3:10.)
I've shown uptopic two verses that mention the two events
in one verse: 2 Thess 2:1 and Titus 2:13 (both penned by
Paul, but the very Written Word of God).
NO, I don't contradict myself or the Bible or add to the Bible,
I'm just explaining what the Bible means. And I might add, as
far as the debate goes, i've overwhelmed the anti-pretribs
thoughs, expressions, Bible Verse quoting, examples, word volume,
etc. I.E. i've won the debate hands down! BTW: I note that
Brother ME4Him can tell more truth with a few drawings
than I can with a whole 20 page Topic full of my words.

About all I can see your 'contradictions' are saying is
the rapture event and the Second Coming Event are one event.
Strange thought that I've got two verses that show the
two events seperated by AND. Here are some of the meanings
of (in both the English 'and' and the Greek 'kai') 'and'

1. 'and' relates two equal sets (both sets have the
same members) with different names

2. 'and' relates two unequal but similiar sets
(each set has some elements in common with the other
but each set also has some elements different from the
others) with different names

3. 'and' relates two unequal and disimiliar sets
(aka: mutually exclusive sets)

4. 'and' is used in Matthew 24
as a polysendyton: the Greeks didn't outline, and
the polysendyton serves instead of an outline.

BTW, I do NOT think because of the polysendyton use
in Matthew chaper 24 that the Matthew 24:29 phrase
'after the tribulation of that day' is still
applicable to Matthew 24:31. Nobody has ever said
the logical debate argument "yes, it does"
Is Genesis 1:1 "in the beginning" still applicalbe
tot Matthew 24:23? Of course not.

I still challenge anti-pretrib folks to tell me
in Matthew 24 what is the answer of Jesus to the
three questions Jesus was asked of His disciples:

when will the temple be destroyed?
what is the sign of the Second Coming of Jesus?
what is the sign of the end of the age?

ALso please note that Matthew 24-25 contains the
Mount Olivet Discourse and has parallels in
Mark 13 and Luke 17 & 21. Nobody remembers to do the
logical debate technique of noting that
Mark 13:4 only has the disciples asking TWO Questions
and Luke 21:7 only has the disciples asking ONE QUESTION.
But why should I help others who like to debate against me?

New Math lesson for 'day':

Me4Him: //"Jesus having resurrected the OT saints when he ascended,
and the church in the rapture, only leaves
the Trib saints here on earth".//

Mel Miller: //This is a complete denial of John 6:38-40 when
Jesus comes to do "His Father's WILL on the
last day" and of Mark 13:24-27 where "He gathers us from
the earth on one of the days after the tribulation"//

Again, 'last day' is probably defined wrong as an 8 hour
work-day by those who don't understand the TRUTH of what
Bro. Me4Him says. The LAST DAYs started on the Day
of Pentacost, 33AD, and continue to 2006 and possibly
beyond. Does God really need an 8-hour 'day' to be the 'last day'
or is the requirement to be a '8-hour last day' a human
understanding problem?
Also note that Revelation 20:5 and 2 Peter 3:10 read together
show a 'Day of the Lord' that is in excess of 1,000 years.
Daniel 9:27 speaks of 7-sevens - a 7-year-day in which the
Antichrist will be about.

In prophetic literature
hour = the appropriate time
day = the appropriate time
year = the appropriate time

so a 7-year-day and a 1,000-year-day all make sence
literally but NOT 24-hour literally.

Now, let me tell you about the 'day' that isn't in my 1982
dictionary.

When a named 'day' begins in the first time zone west
of the International Date Line, it lasts 24-hours at one
place on the map. But during the 24-hours at that one
point, 23 additional time zones receive the new day. And
the day lasts 24 hours at the last time zone, the zone
just east of the International Date Line.
So a named day like today: 1 May 2006 will be around
for 48-hours. The 48-hour earth day.
So: 24-hours solar day at one place on earth
implies a 48-hour day at all points on earth.

assumptions, where do they go

Mel Miller: //This is a complete denial of John 6:38-40 when
Jesus comes to do "His Father's WILL on the
last day" and of Mark 13:24-27 where "He gathers us from
the earth on one of the days after the tribulation"//

Here are parallel Mount Olivet Discourse (MOD) passages:

Matthew 24:29 & Mark 13:24 - after the Tribulation
Matthew 24:31 & Mark 13:27 - the gathering

If you assume that 'the gathering' is 'after the Tribulation' only
you will have many doctrinal inconsistancies and
HOPE only that you may get a martyrs crown to cast at the
feet of Jesus.
If you assume (as I do) that 'the gathering' is
NOT 'after the Tribulation' (and I will show you about
the polysendton 'and' (Greek 'Kai') again, if you wish)
then there are no contradictions and lots of HOPE.

The last battlefield: Grammar

Mel Miller: //And BTW, I wish you would look up the correct
use of words which in almost every post are
disconcerting and show lack of good grammar.//

I'm not allowed to debate here using attacks on other
people's grammar (i've been warned). If the debate
field were level, neither would you. Thank you for
your forbearance. When i was warned, the moderator said
something pretty close (i.e. i'm quoting from memory) to:
'attacks on the grammar of others is always a last
ditch effort of those loosing the debate."


I'm not telling the name of the person who oopsed by
rendering the following judgement against Bro. Me4Him:

//Once again, you fail to point to a single
scripture; but just to preconceived notions
and speculative private "charts".//

Strange, that Me4Him's 'private "charts" ' agree
some 98% with my 'private interpertation'. Maybe 'private'
in this case means 'does not agree with what i guessed'?

//My friend, your following quote is heretical://

Maybe 'heretical' in this case means 'does not agree
with what i guessed the scriptures mean'?

The Myth of the gentile Trib-Saint

My Messanic Jew (a Jew who beleives that Jesus is
their Messiah) friends tell me they think that when the
last gentile who is going to get saved, gets saved, then
the pretribulation rapture/resurrection will occur.
I beleive during the Tribulation Period that MILLIONS OF JEWS
will be saved, some will reject the mark of the Beast
and be Martyred. It is these Jewish/Israeli elect saints
that are spoken about in Revelation 20:4. In fact, let
me remind us of Revelation 2:4 which denotes two groups of
people:

1. the mostly gentile born-again, saved, redeemed elect
saints of the Church Age who are rewared with service on
earth during the Millinnial Messanic Kingdom.
2. the Jewish/Israeli elect saints who died during the
Tribulation period by resisting Antichrist (AKA: Trib-Saints).

Revelation 20:4 (HCSB = Christian Standard Bible
/Holman, 2003/ ):

Then I saw thrones, and people seated on them who were giving
authority to judge. [ I ] also [ saw ] the
souls of those who had been beheaded because
of their testimony about Jesus and because of God's word,
who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and
who had not accepted the mark on their foreheads or their
hands. They came to life and reigned with the Messiah
for 1,000 years.


There you go: two groups:

1. the mostly gentile born-again, saved, redeemed elect
saints of the Church Age who are rewared with service on
earth during the Millinnial Messanic Kingdom.

Then I saw thrones, and people seated on them who were giving
authority to judge.


2. the Jewish/Israeli elect saints who died during the
Tribulation period by resisting Antichrist (AKA: Trib-Saints).

[ I ] also [ saw ] the
souls of those who had been beheaded because
of their testimony about Jesus and because of God's word,
who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and
who had not accepted the mark on their foreheads or their
hands

Understanding this, of course, you get back to what 'and' means.
Here I assume AND means two seperate sets of people.
And I will NOT accept argument that one's other meanings of
'AND' make anybody a 'super Christian'.

 

things one needs to know about 'AND'

Ed speaking of the rapture event (rapture/resurrection) prior
to the Tribulation period:
//This occurs "when Jesus comes to get us, not when He comes
to destroy Antichrist and set up His Millinnial Messanic Kingdom".//

Mel Miller: //Paul does not state "this occurs before the
tribulation." You are "adding to scripture"
what Paul did NOT state, an action which John
in Revelation condemns in the strongest terms!//

Yes, Revelation condemns adding to scripture. That has not
taken place in my posts. The Bible recommends that I explain
in modern terms what the Bible says, indeed DEMANDS that
I exhort, edify, instruct and God called me to do that.
And I'll do it, as best I can.

I've shown uptopic 13 ways that are different between
the pretribulation rapture event and the postrilbulation
Second Coming of Christ event. I've shown uptopic
three similarities between the two events.
I've shown uptopic the two events happen on the same 7-year-day.
(Do not confuse with the 1,000 year 'day' of 2 Peter 3:10.)
I've shown uptopic two verses that mention the two events
in one verse: 2 Thess 2:1 and Titus 2:13 (both penned by
Paul, but the very Written Word of God).
NO, I don't contradict myself or the Bible or add to the Bible,
I'm just explaining what the Bible means. And I might add, as
far as the debate goes, i've overwhelmed the anti-pretribs
thoughs, expressions, Bible Verse quoting, examples, word volume,
etc. I.E. i've won the debate hands down! BTW: I note that
Brother ME4Him can tell more truth with a few drawings
than I can with a whole 20 page Topic full of my words.

About all I can see your 'contradictions' are saying is
the rapture event and the Second Coming Event are one event.
Strange thought that I've got two verses that show the
two events seperated by AND. Here are some of the meanings
of (in both the English 'and' and the Greek 'kai') 'and'

1. 'and' relates two equal sets (both sets have the
same members) with different names

2. 'and' relates two unequal but similiar sets
(each set has some elements in common with the other
but each set also has some elements different from the
others) with different names

3. 'and' relates two unequal and disimiliar sets
(aka: mutually exclusive sets)

4. 'and' is used in Matthew 24
as a polysendyton: the Greeks didn't outline, and
the polysendyton serves instead of an outline.

BTW, I do NOT think because of the polysendyton use
in Matthew chaper 24 that the Matthew 24:29 phrase
'after the tribulation of that day' is still
applicable to Matthew 24:31. Nobody has ever said
the logical debate argument "yes, it does"
Is Genesis 1:1 "in the beginning" still applicalbe
tot Matthew 24:23? Of course not.

I still challenge anti-pretrib folks to tell me
in Matthew 24 what is the answer of Jesus to the
three questions Jesus was asked of His disciples:

when will the temple be destroyed?
what is the sign of the Second Coming of Jesus?
what is the sign of the end of the age?

ALso please note that Matthew 24-25 contains the
Mount Olivet Discourse and has parallels in
Mark 13 and Luke 17 & 21. Nobody remembers to do the
logical debate technique of noting that
Mark 13:4 only has the disciples asking TWO Questions
and Luke 21:7 only has the disciples asking ONE QUESTION.
But why should I help others who like to debate against me?

New Math lesson for 'day':

Me4Him: //"Jesus having resurrected the OT saints when he ascended,
and the church in the rapture, only leaves
the Trib saints here on earth".//

Mel Miller: //This is a complete denial of John 6:38-40 when
Jesus comes to do "His Father's WILL on the
last day" and of Mark 13:24-27 where "He gathers us from
the earth on one of the days after the tribulation"//

Again, 'last day' is probably defined wrong as an 8 hour
work-day by those who don't understand the TRUTH of what
Bro. Me4Him says. The LAST DAYs started on the Day
of Pentacost, 33AD, and continue to 2006 and possibly
beyond. Does God really need an 8-hour 'day' to be the 'last day'
or is the requirement to be a '8-hour last day' a human
understanding problem?
Also note that Revelation 20:5 and 2 Peter 3:10 read together
show a 'Day of the Lord' that is in excess of 1,000 years.
Daniel 9:27 speaks of 7-sevens - a 7-year-day in which the
Antichrist will be about.

In prophetic literature
hour = the appropriate time
day = the appropriate time
year = the appropriate time

so a 7-year-day and a 1,000-year-day all make sence
literally but NOT 24-hour literally.

Now, let me tell you about the 'day' that isn't in my 1982
dictionary.

When a named 'day' begins in the first time zone west
of the International Date Line, it lasts 24-hours at one
place on the map. But during the 24-hours at that one
point, 23 additional time zones receive the new day. And
the day lasts 24 hours at the last time zone, the zone
just east of the International Date Line.
So a named day like today: 1 May 2006 will be around
for 48-hours. The 48-hour earth day.
So: 24-hours solar day at one place on earth
implies a 48-hour day at all points on earth.

assumptions, where do they go

Mel Miller: //This is a complete denial of John 6:38-40 when
Jesus comes to do "His Father's WILL on the
last day" and of Mark 13:24-27 where "He gathers us from
the earth on one of the days after the tribulation"//

Here are parallel Mount Olivet Discourse (MOD) passages:

Matthew 24:29 & Mark 13:24 - after the Tribulation
Matthew 24:31 & Mark 13:27 - the gathering

If you assume that 'the gathering' is 'after the Tribulation' only
you will have many doctrinal inconsistancies and
HOPE only that you may get a martyrs crown to cast at the
feet of Jesus.
If you assume (as I do) that 'the gathering' is
NOT 'after the Tribulation' (and I will show you about
the polysendton 'and' (Greek 'Kai') again, if you wish)
then there are no contradictions and lots of HOPE.

The last battlefield: Grammar

Mel Miller: //And BTW, I wish you would look up the correct
use of words which in almost every post are
disconcerting and show lack of good grammar.//

I'm not allowed to debate here using attacks on other
people's grammar (i've been warned). If the debate
field were level, neither would you. Thank you for
your forbearance. When i was warned, the moderator said
something pretty close (i.e. i'm quoting from memory) to:
'attacks on the grammar of others is always a last
ditch effort of those loosing the debate."


I'm not telling the name of the person who oopsed by
rendering the following judgement against Bro. Me4Him:

//Once again, you fail to point to a single
scripture; but just to preconceived notions
and speculative private "charts".//

Strange, that Me4Him's 'private "charts" ' agree
some 98% with my 'private interpertation'. Maybe 'private'
in this case means 'does not agree with what i guessed'?

//My friend, your following quote is heretical://

Maybe 'heretical' in this case means 'does not agree
with what i guessed the scriptures mean'?

The Myth of the gentile Trib-Saint

My Messanic Jew (a Jew who beleives that Jesus is
their Messiah) friends tell me they think that when the
last gentile who is going to get saved, gets saved, then
the pretribulation rapture/resurrection will occur.
I beleive during the Tribulation Period that MILLIONS OF JEWS
will be saved, some will reject the mark of the Beast
and be Martyred. It is these Jewish/Israeli elect saints
that are spoken about in Revelation 20:4. In fact, let
me remind us of Revelation 2:4 which denotes two groups of
people:

1. the mostly gentile born-again, saved, redeemed elect
saints of the Church Age who are rewared with service on
earth during the Millinnial Messanic Kingdom.
2. the Jewish/Israeli elect saints who died during the
Tribulation period by resisting Antichrist (AKA: Trib-Saints).

Revelation 20:4 (HCSB = Christian Standard Bible
/Holman, 2003/ ):

Then I saw thrones, and people seated on them who were giving
authority to judge. [ I ] also [ saw ] the
souls of those who had been beheaded because
of their testimony about Jesus and because of God's word,
who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and
who had not accepted the mark on their foreheads or their
hands. They came to life and reigned with the Messiah
for 1,000 years.


There you go: two groups:

1. the mostly gentile born-again, saved, redeemed elect
saints of the Church Age who are rewared with service on
earth during the Millinnial Messanic Kingdom.

Then I saw thrones, and people seated on them who were giving
authority to judge.


2. the Jewish/Israeli elect saints who died during the
Tribulation period by resisting Antichrist (AKA: Trib-Saints).

[ I ] also [ saw ] the
souls of those who had been beheaded because
of their testimony about Jesus and because of God's word,
who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and
who had not accepted the mark on their foreheads or their
hands

Understanding this, of course, you get back to what 'and' means.
Here I assume AND means two seperate sets of people.
And I will NOT accept argument that one's other meanings of
'AND' make anybody a 'super Christian'.

 

ED

Do you feel the same way I do in trying to help them ...."see the truth"??

 

Me4Him,

After looking at how you keep banging your head on a table, are you about to go "batty"?

Or, would you even consider you may be wrong about the Trinity?

Quote from ituttut in response to you:
_______________________________________________
"Yep, Leadership by both God/Jesus doesn't function at the same time, one stops before the other starts, pre trib rapture".
_______________________________________________

The reason ituttut agrees with you, evidently, rests on your view that God's "wife" was Israel and the Bride of Jesus is the Church.

But he never did explain how the Bride of the
Lamb is called "His wife" in Rev.19:7.

Do you also think Jesus has a Bride before the
Great Tribulation but marries Israel as His
"wife" after He comes with the Bride?

If so, is God's "wife" different than the
Lamb's "wife"?

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

I'm getting there.

Mt 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,

Uh, oh, the "king" (God) is making a wedding for his son, (Jesus), Father married, son Married.

Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of (His wife) the church:

Mt 9:15 And Jesus said unto them, Can the children of the bridechamber mourn, as long as the bridegroom is with them? but the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken from them, and then shall they fast.

Joh 3:29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom:

Mt 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.

Uh oh, the Brideegroom is returning for his Bride. (rapture)

Only those who believe in Jesus are "rapture", Israel doesn't believe in Jesus, yet.

The lamb's marriages supper takes place during the trib, so it's a pre trib rapture.

Da 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: (trib)

God's remarraige to Israel takes place, "in the third day", (from Jesus's coming, 4th day) which is actually the 7th day or MK and it's back on earth, in "Cana".

Joh 2:1 And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and the mother of Jesus was there:

Who is this "mother of Jesus", Mary, actually it's both Mary and "Israel", or the Jews.

Re 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. (Jesus)

Israel is also described as the "mother of Jesus".

Ho 6:2 After two days (5th, 6th) will he revive us: in the third day (7th, MK) he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.

Joh 2:1 And the third day
Ho 6:2in the third day


Joh 2:1 mother of Jesus was there:
Re 12:13 the woman which brought forth the man child. (Jesus)


Mt 9:15the bridegroom shall be taken
Mt 25:1 went forth to meet the bridegroom.

The "Trinity" explains the scriptures, If you don't use it, you can't understand the scriptures.

 

Me4Him,

Why do you refuse a direct answer to a question?

"Do you also think Jesus has a Bride before the
Great Tribulation but marries Israel as His
`wife' after He comes with the Bride?

If so, is God's `wife' different than the
Lamb's `wife'?

How do you support your claim that:

"Leadership by both God/Jesus doesn't function at the same time, one stops before the other starts, pre trib rapture".

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

npetreley
//Ed, as long as you keep posting these huge walls of text,
you'll only get people like Mel and maybe Me4 to respond.
I'd love to respond to some of the things you post but,
quite frankly, it would take me an hour to address what
you put in a single post, let alone the points you raise
over a series of posts. //

Interesting, i've been working on some of the posts over the
last 20 years. Of course, we each are accountable for our time
to our Blessed Lord and Savior: Messiah Iesus.
Mel Miller, Me45Him, and I are all debating to see how others
feel about our presentation. That way we are each 'improving
our serve' in the direction that the Lord has lead each of us.
(Someday I may start another discussion about 'Can the Holy
Spirit lead each of us to have widely variaint Eschatologies
and still be leading each of us?'

BTW, did you know that 20 years ago, before the Internet
had Bulletin Boards, the same funcition was filled by
POSTING WALLS. THis was constransted with:

1. chat lines - real time conversations
2. e-mail groups - everybody emails everybody else in the group

But the posting walls were better for me: I could post when
I'm off work and at my time instead of some other person's time.

 

Oh lordy, it's "head banging time" again.

Does the scripture "DIVIDE" God into the "Father and Son"????

If it does, then you had better, if you have any intentions of understanding the scriptures,

Israel couldn't "DIVIDE" God into being the "SON" who spoke to them, and you know the trouble that caused them, and if you don't, You're headed down the same road.

"Leadership by both God/Jesus doesn't function at the same time, one stops before the other starts, pre trib rapture".

Jas 3:12 Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh.