Comparative analysis: Matthew 24, 25 & 1 Thessalonians 4

[Mel Miller]

Dear Me4Him

You sound dangerously near advocating that
Jesus was not acting as ONE WITH THE FATHER by claiming three times to have come to do ONLY the Father's will!!

And what is the Father's Will? It is that He,
Jesus, in perfect conformity to His Father,
couldn't be DIVIDED in purpose or performance.

Jesus will come on the LAST DAY, at the LAST
TRUMP to "raise up every/all believers AND to
gather them from earth to heaven on one of the
days AFTER the great tribulation".

I need no further text to prove that there is
one Bride and one Wife of the Lamb who includes the saved of Israel and of the Gentiles during the great tribulation.

The Father and Son are two Persons; but they
are NOT DIVIDED in nature or purpose or by
Israel being restored as the wife of God while
ALL the Saints are a separate wife of the Lamb.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Edwards,

Logical! Logical!

Remember Heremeneutic rules- Intepretung in contextually.

Do the disciples in Matthew chapter 24, were aware that, there shall be two future comings at the end of the age? Do they know the teaching of pretribulational coming? Does Christ actual taught on pretribulational to His disciples whilst He was on earth for 3 1/2 years?

No way, you can find a single verse anywhere in the four gospels, which Christ did mentioned to them on pretribulational.

Before the disciples asked Christ about the signs of the end of the age, and His coming of Matthew 24. Christ's lecture on Matthew 24 & 25 was occured within 3 to 4 days before His death. Christ already been taught His disciples on the end of the age and His coming for over three years of ministry. They already learned that there shall be the end of the age shall be occur at a once, not twice, according what Christ taught them earlier.

Many pretribs are aware that the passage of Matthew 24 & 25 both are the clearest and strong evidence that Christ telling us, Christ shall come again at the end of the age at ONCE, not twice. Yet, they twisting Christ's lecture- for example, they use Matt. 24:36 & 42, that they saying it is "pretrib". But, they take it out of its context what the whole of Matthew chapter 24 is talking about.

Actually, pretribs have HARD time dealing with Matthew 24 & 25. Because Christ telling us very clear that He shall come again at the end of the age - once, not twice. The fact that pretribs always saying to the people, that Matthew 24 is NOT for Church, it is for "Israel" only.

We should be aware that the audience of Matthew 24 & 25 were speak toward Christ's followers were all Christians like us. So, therefore, Matthew 24 & 25 always apply to us all.

Ed, I know that you refuse to admit that Christ clearly telling us, He is coming again after the tribulation, because of what Matt. 24:29-31 saying so. Yet, you twist on Matt. 24:31 and you saying it is "pretrib". Oh really? How do you know that Matt. 24:31 shall be occur BEFORE tribulation? Where did you get the information come from?

You have to accept what Christ actual saying of Matthew 24:29-31. Believe His words and very simple & plain. Why cannot you simple accept Christ's own words of Matt. 24:29-31?

Also, you seperated on Titus 2:13 of "Blessed Hope" & "Glorious Appearing". You called, 'Blessed Hope', - "pretrib", and you called, 'Glorious Appearing'- "posttrib or second coming".

How do you know "blessed hope" shall be occur seven years apart or earlier prior second coming? Does Paul actual saying that 'the blessed hope' is a pretribulational? Silence.

Use our common sense. We can easily understand what Paul saying of Titus 2:13, that our blessed hope is always included at the glorious appearing same time.

What is the blessed hope? Have eternal life! Secondly, what the second reason or purpose of the blessed hope is? Looking for our body to be all changed into immortality at Lord's coming according Luke 21:28; Romans 8:19-23; & 1 Cor. 15:51-54. Paul means of the blessed hope is talking about our body all shall be changed into immortality follow rapture at Lord's coming same time.

I do eager looking forward for our blessed hope and his glorious appearing is the second coming at the end of the age.

Your logical on pretribulational as what you interpreting the scriptures are fallacy and flaws. Your logicals have no true foundation and support from the Bible.

Pretribulationism is a men-making doctrine. It is only 170 years old doctrine. I reject men's doctrine. I rather follow what the Bible saying than what men saying according Colossians 2:8.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Mel Miller:
Dear Me4Him

You sound dangerously near advocating that
Jesus was not acting as ONE WITH THE FATHER by claiming three times to have come to do ONLY the Father's will!!

And what is the Father's Will? It is that He,
Jesus, in perfect conformity to His Father,
couldn't be DIVIDED in purpose or performance.

Jesus will come on the LAST DAY, at the LAST
TRUMP to "raise up every/all believers AND to
gather them from earth to heaven on one of the
days AFTER the great tribulation".

I need no further text to prove that there is
one Bride and one Wife of the Lamb who includes the saved of Israel and of the Gentiles during the great tribulation.

The Father and Son are two Persons; but they
are NOT DIVIDED in nature or purpose or by
Israel being restored as the wife of God while
ALL the Saints are a separate wife of the Lamb.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

Jesus is/was God in flesh, But Israel rejected him/his marriage as God, So Israel is blinded until the SON takes himself a "Bride" from among the gentiles, Church/rapture, then during the trib, the two witnesses, Moses/Elijah will bear witness of Jesus to Israel, just as they did on the Mt of transfiguration.

God the father is a spirit, Jesus is flesh, and the way God manifest himself to man, in eternity, God the father stays in the New heaven, Jesus the Son on the New earth, just as before, who do you think Jesus would pray too???

As I said, If you don't divide the trinity, you can't/won't understand the scriptures, that includes the "marriages".

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by DeafPosttrib:

Many pretribs are aware that the passage of Matthew 24 & 25 both are the clearest and strong evidence that Christ telling us, Christ shall come again at the end of the age at ONCE, not twice. Yet, they twisting Christ's lecture- for example, they use Matt. 24:36 & 42, that they saying it is "pretrib". But, they take it out of its context what the whole of Matthew chapter 24 is talking about.

Actually, pretribs have HARD time dealing with Matthew 24 & 25. Because Christ telling us very clear that He shall come again at the end of the age - once, not twice. The fact that pretribs always saying to the people, that Matthew 24 is NOT for Church, it is for "Israel" only.

We should be aware that the audience of Matthew 24 & 25 were speak toward Christ's followers were all Christians like us. So, therefore, Matthew 24 & 25 always apply to us all.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen! [/QB]

I think you'll have a hard time explaining what it is that is occurring right now and has Israel blinded, and must stop before the blinders will come off of israel.

Ro 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery,

lest ye should be wise in your own conceits;

that blindness in part is happened to Israel,

until (?????)

the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Where is, what is that event in the scriptures that describes the end, or "Fulness of the Gentiles", after which the blinders come off Israel???

 

[Ed Edwards]

Amen, Brother Me4Him - Preach it!

You are so RIGHT ON! (and lots less wordy
than I am )

 

[Mel Miller]

Me4Him,

Your concluding question shows you are 7 years
off as to the time for the "Fulness of Gentiles"
and the removal of blindness from Israel:

Quote:
_______________________________________________
"Where is, what is that event in the scriptures that describes the end, or "Fulness of the Gentiles", after which the blinders come off Israel???
_______________________________________________

When will you realize that "event" is the 2nd
coming of Christ??? The END comes after the
great tribulation; not years before the 7th
Trumpet sounds.

"The Tribes of earth (Descendants of Israel and
Ishmael) will MOURN" after they see Christ
appearing ... while the Angels are "gathering
the Elect out of the 4 winds AFTER the great
tribulation". Jesus first "gathers the Elect
from the earth AFTER the tribulation".

How much plainer could Jesus explain the answer
to your question???

Your self-appointed "leader" has an answer to
your question that he claims is truly logical.
You need to realize, according to EE, that,
since Matt.24:31 refers to a Pre-Trib Rapture,
by the same inverted logic Mark 13:27 must also
refer to a Pre-Trib Rapture!!!

How does EE accomplish this cerebral maneuver?
He assumes those coming "out of the tribulation"
never actually entered that time-period just as
he, EE, never entered Vietnam; yet he came "out
of Vietnam". Amazing logic for an expert!!

And it's even more amazing since there is no way the account in Mark 13:27 can refer to a Pre-Trib
Rapture. See what I mean by "twisting truth"?

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Mel Miller:
Me4Him,

Your concluding question shows you are 7 years
off as to the time for the "Fulness of Gentiles"
and the removal of blindness from Israel:

Quote:
_______________________________________________
"Where is, what is that event in the scriptures that describes the end, or "Fulness of the Gentiles", after which the blinders come off Israel???
_______________________________________________

When will you realize that "event" is the 2nd
coming of Christ??? The END comes after the
great tribulation; not years before the 7th
Trumpet sounds.

"The Tribes of earth (Descendants of Israel and
Ishmael) will MOURN" after they see Christ
appearing ... while the Angels are "gathering
the Elect out of the 4 winds AFTER the great
tribulation". Jesus first "gathers the Elect
from the earth AFTER the tribulation".

How much plainer could Jesus explain the answer
to your question???

Your self-appointed "leader" has an answer to
your question that he claims is truly logical.
You need to realize, according to EE, that,
since Matt.24:31 refers to a Pre-Trib Rapture,
by the same inverted logic Mark 13:27 must also
refer to a Pre-Trib Rapture!!!

How does EE accomplish this cerebral maneuver?
He assumes those coming "out of the tribulation"
never actually entered that time-period just as
he, EE, never entered Vietnam; yet he came "out
of Vietnam". Amazing logic for an expert!!

And it's even more amazing since there is no way the account in Mark 13:27 can refer to a Pre-Trib
Rapture. See what I mean by "twisting truth"?

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

Mel, the scripture aren't "twisted", and I wish I could say the same about your "mind".

The seventy weeks determined on Israel, are "ON ISRAEL", not the church, the church (gentile) wasn't around when the first 69 weeks took place and neither will it be around when the 70th week occurs either.

Those 70 weeks have "NOTHING" to do with the church, that's why the trib "WILL NOT" start until the "fulness of the Gentiles" (Church) is "taken out of the way" (rapture)

AND Then SHALL THAT WICKED ONE BE REVEALED.

No one sees Jesus (Bridegroom) in the rapture, it's over in the "twinkling of an eye", they go back to heaven, When Jesus returns the whole world sees him.

 

[Mel Miller]

Me4Him,
Quote:
_______________________________________________
"What is that event in the scriptures that describes the end, or `Fulness of the Gentiles', after which the blinders come off Israel"???
_______________________________________________

Your question shows you are years off as to the time for the "Fulness of Gentiles"
and the removal of blindness from Israel:

The majority of evangelicals say that "event" is the 2nd coming of Christ. The END of the Age comes after the great tribulation ... as of the
Day the 7th Trumpet sounds that God's wrath has
come; not years before the 7th Trumpet sounds.
Jesus will be with us to the "End of the Age"!

"The Tribes of earth (Descendants of Israel and
Ishmael) will MOURN" after they see Christ
appearing ... while the Angels are "gathering
the Elect out of the 4 winds AFTER the great
tribulation". Jesus first "gathers the Elect
from the earth AFTER the tribulation". Mark
13:24-27

Me4Him, How much plainer could Jesus explain the
answer to your question?? EE, your "leader", has an answer to your question that he claims
is truly logical. According to EE, since Matt.24:31 refers to a Pre-Trib Rapture, he must use the same inverted logic that Mark 13:27 must also refer to a Pre-Trib Rapture!!!

So, in his logic, those “coming out of the great
tribulation” in Rev.7:13-14 must refer to the Pre-Trib Rapture!!

How does EE accomplish this cerebral maneuver?
He assumes those coming "out of the tribulation"
never actually entered that time-period. He assumes this must be true just as he, EE, never entered Vietnam during the war; yet he came "out of the Vietnam war". Logic for an expert!!

This logic twists the truth since there is no way Jesus in Mark 13:27 can refer to a Pre-Trib Rapture. That’s how EE makes Jesus say the exact opposite of: “The Son of Man will gather the elect from the earth in the days after the tribulation”! Mark 13:24-27.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

[Ed Edwards]

DeafPosttrib: //Ed, I know that you refuse to admit that Christ clearly telling us, He is coming again after the tribulation, because of what Matt. 24:29-31 saying so. Yet, you twist on Matt. 24:31 and you saying it is "pretrib". Oh really? How do you know that Matt. 24:31 shall be occur BEFORE tribulation? Where did you get the information come from?//

I got the information from the Bible.
It is there for anybody else to read.
Again I make the challenge: what is the
Answer of Chirst in Matthew 24 to each of the three quesitons
asked in Matthew 24:3?

 

[Ed Edwards]

In Matthew 24:3 the disciples of Jesus
ask three questions:

(in the order asked):
1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
2. What is the sign of His coming?
3. What is the sign of the end of age?

Jesus answers these questions in
Matthew 24:4-44, then follows them with
some parables.

Here are the answers of Jesus in the
order the questions were asked:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Matthew 24:4-14

2. What is the sign of His coming?
Matthew 24:15-30

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
Matthew 24:31-44

Here is a summary of the answers
in the order in which events will occur:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Soon, it was in 70AD

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
No signs preceeding the end of the age

2. What is the sign of His coming?
The Sign of His coming will be the
Tribulation period.

Recall the Greek language in which this
Mount Olivet Discourse (MOD) was written
did not have Microsoft Word to do it with.
So many ands, buts, and other connectors
give the outline. 'Polysyndeton' is a retorical device that uses
(in English) repeated connectors (usually 'and')
instead of an outline. This is most noticable
in the Bible in Genesis 1 and Matthew 24.
I believe the major outline to be:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Matthew 24:4-14

2. What is the sign of His coming?
Matthew 24:15-30

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
Matthew 24:31-44

The Gathering in Matthew 24:31 is the
Rapture/resurrection which ends the
current church age (gentile age, age of grace,
last days, etc.)

Thus Matthew 24:4-14 describes all of the
church age even up to this time.
Matthew 24:4-14 describes the church age.
The signs of Matthew 24:4-14 are signs
that the church age continues.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Scripture is from the KJV1611 Edition

Mat 24:3 And as he sate vpon the mount of Oliues, the Disciples came vnto him priuately, saying,
I Tell vs, when shall these things be?
II And what shall be the signe of thy coming,
III and(what shall be the signe) of the end of the world?


I Tell vs, when shall these things be?
Mat 24:4 And Iesus answered, and said vnto them, Take heed that no man deceiue you.
Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ: and shall deceiue many.
Mat 24:6 And yee shall heare of warres, and rumors of warres: See that yee be not troubled: for all these things must come to passe, but the end is not yet.
Mat 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdome against kingdome, and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes in diuers places.
Mat 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrowes.
Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliuer you vp to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and yee shall bee hated of all nations for my names sake.
Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
Mat 24:11 And many false Prophets shall rise, and shall deceiue many.
Mat 24:12 And because iniquitie shal abound, the loue of many shall waxe cold.
Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure vnto the end, the same shall be saued.
Mat 24:14 And this Gospell of the kingdome shall be preached in all the world, for a witnesse vnto al nations, and then shall the end come.

III And what shall be the signe of thy coming,
Mat 24:15 When yee therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the Prophet, stand in the holy place, (who so readeth, let him vnderstand.)
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Iudea, flee into the mountaines.
Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the house top, not come downe, to take any thing out of his house:
Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field, returne backe to take his clothes.
Mat 24:19 And wòe vnto them that are with child, and to them that giue sucke in those dayes.
Mat 24:20 But pray yee that your flight bee not in the winter, neither on the Sabbath day:
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor euer shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those dayes should be shortned, there should no flesh be saued: but for the elects sake, those dayes shall be shortned.
Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say vnto you, Loe, heere is Christ, or there: beleeue it not.
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shal shew great signes and wonders: insomuch that (if it were possible,) they shall deceiue the very elect.
Mat 24:25 Behold, I haue told you before.
Mat 24:26 Wherefore, if they shall say vnto you, Behold, he is in the desert, goe not foorth: Behold, he is in the secret chambers, beleeue it not.
Mat 24:27 For as the lightening commeth out of the East, and shineth euen vnto the West: so shall also the coming of the Sonne of man be.
Mat 24:28 For wheresoeuer the carkeise is, there will the Eagles bee gathered together.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those dayes, shall the Sunne be darkned, and the Moone shall not giue her light, and the starres shall fall from heauen, and the powers of the heauens shall be shaken.
Mat 24:30 And then shall appeare the signe of the Sonne of man in heauen: and then shall all the Tribes of the earth mourne, and they shall see the Sonne of man coming in the clouds of heauen, with power and great glory.

II and(what shall be the signe) of the end of the world?

Mat 24:31 And hee shall send his Angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his Elect from the foure windes, from one end of heauen to the other.
Mat 24:32 Now learne a parable of the figtree: when his branch is yet tender, and putteth foorth leaues, yee know that Summer is nigh:
Mat 24:33 So likewise yee, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is neere, euen at the doores.
Mat 24:34 Uerely I say vnto you, this generation shall not passe, till all these things be fulfilled.
Mat 24:35 Heauen and earth shall passe away, but my wordes shall not passe away.
Mat 24:36 But of that day and houre knoweth no man, no, not the Angels of heauen, but my Father onely.
Mat 24:37 But as the dayes of Noe were, so shall also the comming of the Sonne of man be.
Mat 24:38 For as in the dayes that were before the Flood, they were eating, and drinking, marrying, and giuing in mariage, vntill the day that Noe entred into the Arke,
Mat 24:39 And knew not vntill the Flood came, and tooke them all away: so shall also the comming of the Sonne of man be.
Mat 24:40 Then shall two be in the field, the one shalbe taken, and the other left.
Mat 24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill: the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Mat 24:42 Watch therfore, for ye know not what houre your Lord doth come.
Mat 24:43 But know this, that if the good man of the house had knowen in what watch the thiefe would come, he would haue watched, and would not haue suffered his house to be broken vp.
Mat 24:44 Therefore be yee also ready: for in such an houre as you thinke not, the sonne of man commeth.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Mar 13:24 But in those dayes, after that tribulation, the Sunne
shalbe darkned, and the Moone shall not giue her light.
Mar 13:25 And the Starres of heauen shall fall, and the powers
that are in heauen shall be shaken.
Mar 13:26 And then shal they see the Sonne of man comming
in the cloudes, with great power and glory.
Mar 13:27 And then shal he send his Angels, and shall gather
together his elect from the foure winds, from the vttermost
part of the earth, to the vttermost part of heauen.
Mar 13:28 Now learne a parable of the fig tree. When her branch
is yet tender, and putteth forth leaues, ye know that summer is neere:
Mar 13:29 So ye in like maner, when ye shal see these things
come to passe, knowe that it is nigh, euen at the doores.
Mar 13:30 Uerely I say vnto you, that this generation shall
not passe, till all these things be done.
Mar 13:31 Heauen and earth shal passe away: but my words
shall not passe away.
Mar 13:32 But of that day and that houre knoweth no man,
no not the Angels which are in heauen, neither the Son, but the Father.
Mar 13:33 Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know
not when the time is.


1. IMHO nobody would say that Mark 13:33 is bound by the
phrase in Mark 13:24 " ... in those dayes, after that tribulation ... "

2. I say that Mark 13: 27 is not bound by the
phrase in Mark 13:24 " ... in those dayes, after that tribulation ... "

Mel Miller: //This logic twists the truth since there is no way Jesus
in Mark 13:27 can refer to a Pre-Trib Rapture. That’s how EE
makes Jesus say the exact opposite of: “The Son of Man will gather
the elect from the earth in the days after the tribulation”! Mark 13:24-27.//

No twist, just good Bible reading.

Sorry, you misquote Mark 13:24-27.
The scripture is quoted above.
What is the last verse after Mark 12:24 that happens
" ... in those dayes, after that tribulation ... "?
Feel free to go into Luke if necessary

Yet some would think that they are morally superior for making
the effect of Mark 13:24 " ... in those dayes, after that tribulation ... "
end in a different place. Sorry folks, such a position defys God's
command to:

Rom 12:3 (KJV1611 Edition):
For I say, through the grace giuen vnto mee, to euery man that
is among you, not to thinke of himselfe
more highly then hee ought to thinke,
but to thinke soberly, according as God hath
dealt to euery man the measure of faith.

 

[Mel Miller]

Ed Edwards,

My final rejection of your claim of knowing that
Jesus taught a Pre-Trib Rapture in Matt.24:31
and Mark 13:27 is that you contradicted yourself
in order to "change the truth":

Quote from your post of 8:56 PM:
_______________________________________________

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
No signs preceeding the end of the age
_______________________________________________
You gave this answer because you believe Jesus
is talking about a signless Pre-Trib Rapture in Matt.24:31 and so you must admit this "gathering by the angels" is a SIGN of the "end of the age".

You support the fulfillment of this so-called End of the Age rapture by saying the Elect of Matt.24:31 will be "gathered BEFORE rather than AFTER the great tribulation". You do this by
lifting verse 31 completely out of context!!!!

Then, at 9:01 PM, you repeated the Sign Jesus
gave for the "End of the world" (instead of age) by using the very same verse at Matt.24:3. Here
is where you contradict yourself.

Quote:
_______________________________________________
III and(what shall be the signe) of the end of the world? Mat 24:31 And hee shall send his Angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his Elect from the foure windes, from one end of heauen to the other.
________________________________________________

You explain Matt.24:31 as NOT A SIGN OF THE END
OF THE AGE and then change it to A SIGN OF THE
END OF THE WORLD. Quote: "The Gathering in Matthew 24:31 is the Rapture/resurrection which ends the current church age (gentile age, age of grace, last days, etc.)" You deny Matt.24:3 and Matt.24:31 refer to a sign of the End of the AGE; then say it refers to a sign of the End of the WORLD. I call that a contradiction to support
your twist of truth.
_______________________________________________

At 8:56 you support the fulfillment of this so-called End of the Age rapture by saying the Elect of Matt.24:31 will be "gathered BEFORE rather than AFTER the great tribulation".

Five minutes later you repeated the SAME Sign Jesus gave for the "End of the world" (instead of age) by changing the word AGE to WORLD from the very same verse at Matt.24:3.

You claim to "read your Bible" and that Matt. 24:31 refers to an out of context Pre-Trib End of the Age Rapture which has NO SIGN; then give the same verse as a Sign of the End of the World which you must admit occurs after the G.T.

You can't use the same verse to refer to a Pre-
trib End of the Age Rapture which has no SIGN
and also as the SIGN OF THE END OF THE WORLD AS ANGELS ARE GATHERING THE ELECT OUT OF THE 4 WINDS FROM ALL EXTREMITIES OF THE HEAVENS"!!!!

I have found that you are neither candid nor fair in judging what others consider the truth.

This is my last word on the subject because you
are two-faced in telling me I misquoted Mark 13:27. If the Board wants to discipline me, let me deliberately repeat that you contradicted yourself within five minutes in two posts, i.e., saying there are "no signs of the End of the Age" in Matt.24 but that the Pre-Trib Rapture in Matt.24:31 is THE SIGN OF THE END OF THE WORLD.

You use Matt.24:3 and Matt.24:31 to refer to a Pre-Trib Rapture (without a sign) and at the same time to a SIGN of the End of the WORLD.

I am tired of your constant changing of truth
and now you contradict youself and slander my
quoting of Scripture. Jesus did INDEED give the Sign of the End of the Age. You inadverently admit the truth, though do so by changing the word AGE to WORLD.

The Last Day of the AGE includes the SIGNS in
the sun, moon and stars AND, ON THAT SAME 12-
HOUR DAY THE ANGELS GATHER THE ELECT OUT OF THE 4 WINDS FROM ALL EXTREMITIES of the HEAVENS"!! They do this after "the Son of Man gathers the elect upon the same 4 winds from the extremities of earth to the extremities of heaven".

You have not once admitted that Jesus might be
describing a Post-Trib gathering of all the Elect
by Himself from earth to all the extremities of
the heavens ... in order to fulfill His promise
that He will raise up every/all believers on the
Last Day!! Mark 13:24-27; John 6:38-40,44,54.

You cannot use Matt.24:3 and Matt.24:31 to refer to a Pre-Trib Rapture (without any sign) and
at the same time to the SIGN OF THE END OF THE
WORLD. I am tired of your constant change of truth and now you contradict youself and make
me a misquoter of Scripture. That really hurts!!

I refuse to have further exchanges with you. You
are as much as saying I deny the Lord Himself.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

[Ed Edwards]

You are highly confused and misquote me.

Recall the difference in wording:

Matthew 24:3 (KJV1769):
And as he sat upon the mount of Olives,
the disciples came unto him privately,
saying, Tell us, when shall these things be?
and what shall be the sign of thy coming,
and of the end of the world?

Matthew 24:3 (HCSB = Holman Christian Standard Bible):

While He was sitting on the Mount of Olives,
the disciples approached Him privately
and said, "Tell us, when will these things happen?
And what is the sign of Your coming
and of the end of the age?

Strong's says of the word translated
variously 'world' and 'age':

G165
αἰών
aiōn
ahee-ohn'
From the same as G104; properly an age; by
extension perpetuity (also past);
by implication the world; specifically (Jewish)
a Messianic period (present or future):
- age, course, eternal, (for) ever (-more),
[n-]ever, (beginning of the, while the) world
(began, without end). Compare G5550.

Ed said:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Soon, it was in 70AD

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
No signs preceeding the end of the age

2. What is the sign of His coming?
The Sign of His coming will be the
Tribulation period.

Another sige of His coming to the
unsaved of the world will be the
pretribulation rapture presceeding the
Tribulation Period.

Please note, a SIGN comes Before the event.
The Event is NOT a SIGN of the Event;
the Event is the Event, not a SIGN of the Event.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Notice III: And what shall be the signe of thy coming,

1. the AOD (abomination of desolation) sign (Matthew 24:15)
2. the great tribulation sign (Matthew 24:21)
3. THE SECOND COMING EVENT (matthew 24:29-30)

Note the signs preceed the event.

Notice II: and(what shall be the signe) of the end of the world?

1. The rapture EVENT (Matthew 24:31)
2. events following the rapture Event, conditions (not signs) leading
up to the event.

Note no sign preceeds the pretribulatin
rapture/resurrection event.

 

[Me4Him]

Ya'll even got me cornfused, as to who said what, let see If I can straighten everybody out.

Purrceeding the rapture signs.

1. falling away
2, Israel restored, (not absolutely necessary)

The rapture.

No one see Jesus, over in the twinkling of an eye, Jesus comes himself to receive us to himself, he doesn't send angels,
we meet him in the air, he doesn't touch the earth, we return to heaven with him, (Lamb's marriage supper) the righteous leave the earth, the unsaved stay for the trib.


Trib period occurs.

Jesus's second coming,

Every eyes see him, Jesus touches the earth, he send angels to reap the wicked, cast them into hell, the wicked leave the earth, the righteous stay for the MK.

As the "Bridegroom" (day of Christ) in the rapture only the righteous leave the earth.

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

As "lord" (Day of the lord) Jesus orders the angels to reap the "wheat/tares", casting the tares in hell, and the wheat into his "barn", (MK)

Mt 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, her ye together first tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Mt 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Jesus sever the righteous from among the unsaved.
Angels sever the unsaved from among the righteous.

Who is reaping (Jesus/Angels) and whom is "FIRST" reaped, (Righteous/wicked) are different for each reaping, this separates the reaping into two diferent events.

Now Ya'll stop getting me cornfused.

 

[Mel Miller]

Me4Him,
Quote:
_______________________________________________
“Ya'll even got me cornfused, as to who said what, let see If I can straighten everybody out”
_______________________________________________

All you did is support my view that the “End of the Age” occurs when Jesus sends the angels
to gather the wicked FIRST and then angels will “gather the sons of the kingdom”. The Son of Man reaps the wicked to “God’s winepress of great anger” before He "gathers the elect from earth's extremity to heaven's extremity"!

You quoted Jesus from Matt.13:30:

“Let both (sons of kingdom and sons of Satan) grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn”. (This happens at the End of the Age).

You ask “whom is FIRST reaped”; but you don’t answer the question because Jesus “reaps”
the wicked FIRST. THEN He “sends the angels and He gathers the elect sons of the kingdom from the extremity of earth to the extremity of heaven”. Mark 13:27. THEN the angels “gather these elect from all extremities of the heavens”. Matt.24:31.

You also quoted Matt.13:49:
“So shall it be at the end of the world (age): angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just”.

Jesus identifies the END OF THE AGE as the time: (ONE) for the reaping of the wicked “FIRST” and
(TWO) for the Son of Man to “send the angels and (THREE) for Him to gather the elect from the extremity of earth to the extremity of heaven” so that (FOUR) the angels may then “gather these elect from all extremities of the heavens”. Both REAPINGS occur on the same 12-Hour Day!!!

Me4Him
You didn’t even mention the point of contention in which EE contradicts himself. He tries to
extricate himself from his self-made dilemma by saying “THE SIGN” of Christ’s coming AND
Presence at the END of the AGE (Matt.24:31) occurs BEFORE the Great Tribulation. It is deceitful and heretical to say that Jesus, in Matt.24:30, refers to “THE SIGN” of His coming
AFTER the great tribulation and that the next verse, Matt.24:31, does NOT occur at the SAME
time; but refers to a Rapture BEFORE the tribulation. (I insist this is an outright denial of what Jesus taught).

EE has painted himself into a corner in which he denies the word of the Lord that “He will
send the angels to collect (not gather) the sons of Satan FIRST at the End of the Age” ... and NOT 7 years before the End of the Age!

In 72 years of Bible research EE is the first person I have ever known to claim Matt.24:31 refers to a Pre-Trib Rapture! Others may say the “elect” are Jews and/or that Jesus alone “raptures” the saints at the Pre-Trib Rapture while angels “re-gather the Jews” (not from earth’s extremity to heaven’s extremity) but from earth to Israel.

Jesus’ solemn word is that “He will send the angels and He will gather the elect from
earth’s extremity (episunxei; 3rd person singular) AFTER the great tribulation and then, at THE SIGN of His coming and Presence, that they will gather these elect from all (four) extremities of the heavenS”. The action of
Mark 13:27 occurs just before Matt.24:30-31.
EE stands in solitary isolation by claiming the “End of the Age” occurs at a Pre-Trib Rapture and that THE SIGN of Jesus “reaping the wicked FIRST” does NOT occur prior to His reaping of the Elect from the “extremity of earth to the extremity of heaven”!

Not only does EE contradict the plain teaching that THE SIGN occurs in the same moments as the gathering of the Elect from the earth, but he denies the “gathering together above” of Matt. 24:31 and Mark 13:27 must occur AFTER THE SIGN OF HIS PRESENCE!

I cannot fellowship in this kind of denial of God’s holy word. Your attempt to support your
friend has actually more fully expressed the truth that Jesus taught about the End of the Age. I knew EE was totally wrong when he equated the answer to the 4 disciples’ private question
which was specifically about the “THE SIGN when all these things would be fulfilled in the days after the tribulation” and NOT primarily with what happens prior to the End of the Age.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

[Ed Edwards]

Amen, Brother Me4HIm -- Preach it!!

You are always so RIGHT ON!!!

(if you will skip numbers )

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Mel Miller:
Me4Him,
Quote:
_______________________________________________
“Ya'll even got me cornfused, as to who said what, let see If I can straighten everybody out”
_______________________________________________

All you did is support my view that the “End of the Age” occurs when Jesus sends the angels
to gather the wicked FIRST and then angels will “gather the sons of the kingdom”. The Son of Man reaps the wicked to “God’s winepress of great anger” before He "gathers the elect from earth's extremity to heaven's extremity"!

You quoted Jesus from Matt.13:30:

“Let both (sons of kingdom and sons of Satan) grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn”. (This happens at the End of the Age).

You ask “whom is FIRST reaped”; but you don’t answer the question because Jesus “reaps”
the wicked FIRST. THEN He “sends the angels and He gathers the elect sons of the kingdom from the extremity of earth to the extremity of heaven”. Mark 13:27. THEN the angels “gather these elect from all extremities of the heavens”. Matt.24:31.

You also quoted Matt.13:49:
“So shall it be at the end of the world (age): angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just”.

Jesus identifies the END OF THE AGE as the time: (ONE) for the reaping of the wicked “FIRST” and
(TWO) for the Son of Man to “send the angels and (THREE) for Him to gather the elect from the extremity of earth to the extremity of heaven” so that (FOUR) the angels may then “gather these elect from all extremities of the heavens”. Both REAPINGS occur on the same 12-Hour Day!!!

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

"IF" there's only one "coming", if Jesus reaps al the righteous, ther wouldn't be any righteous left for the angel to reap,

And if the angel reap all the "elect", there wouldn't by any "elect" left for Jesus to reap.

These reaping can not take place at the same time, in the same time frame.

In the rapture, Jesus is the bridegroom, coming "himself", we meet "HIM" in the air, taking only the church, or believers, his bride.

Israel then enter the trib as chastisement from God, but it's during this time God sent "Moses/Elijah" to witness to Israel, and some of them believe in Jesus, and for most, it will cost them their physical life, the chastisement.

When Jesus returns, he returns not as a Bridegroom, but as "lord of Lords" (Day of the Lord) over the whole earth, this is when he send the angel to gather the wicked, (Tares) casting them into hell and gathering those who have believed in Jesus, "Elect" and survived the trib. (wheat)

Only Jews are "elect", we become a Jew by a "Spiritual circumcision of the heart", but because of the promises God made to Abraham, Jews can be "enemies of the gospel" and still be "Elect", no Gentile can say the same,

So when Scripture says "Elect", you have to understand it in context, is it referring to a "Saved Gentile" or the Natural nation of Jews", 9 times out of 10, it will be referring to the Natural nations of Jews, even though they rejected God, (Jesus) he isn't finished with them yet, that's why they are still referred to as "Elect".

Mt 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Ro 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

Ro 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid.

 

[Mel Miller]

Me4Him,

You said you were confused. Obviously your state
of confusion continues as noted in these quotes:
________________________________________________
"IF" there's only one "coming", if Jesus reaps al the righteous, ther wouldn't be any righteous left for the angel to reap,

And if the angel reap all the "elect", there wouldn't by any "elect" left for Jesus to reap.

These reaping can not take place at the same time, in the same time frame.
_______________________________________________

In Mark 13 Jesus states that "HE will SEND the
angels and HE will GATHER the elect from the extremity of earth to the extremity of heaven in the days AFTER the great tribulation". Vs.24-27.
This occurs before Christ appears and before
the "tribes of earth mourn".

In Matt.24 Jesus confirms that the "Angels will
gather the elect from all extremities of the
heavenS immediately AFTER the great tribulation".
Vs.29-31. This happens after He appears and the
"tribes of earth mourn". Matt.24:30.

It will happen too fast for men to realize the dead in Christ and the living are changed in the
twinkling of an eye. That is what happens before
they see Him appearing upon the clouds in power
and great glory. But then they will see those
that pierced Him at His side as the angels bring
all believers to the Synagogue in the Sky.

Above you are saying that these two aspects of
the same "gathering of the elect AFTER the great tribulation" CANNOT occur in the same time-frame. Looks like you think Jesus was mistaken!!

BTW, where is the Nation of Israel referred to as the "Elect nine of of ten times" in the New Testament? Obviously they are the Elect in the
O T; but you are referring to the Elect among
BOTH Gentiles and Jews and to the specific time AFTER the Tribulation when Jesus gathers (sunago) the elect together above (episunago).

I can see why you are confused.

It makes no sense for you to claim Jesus gathers ONLY THE ELECT JEWS from earth's extremity to heaven's extremity after the tribulation; but then add that HE does "NOT" ALSO SEND the angels to FINISH GATHERING THEM out of the same 4 winds IN THE SAME TIME-FRAME.

IN THE SAME TIME FRAME Jesus "sends the angels and He gathers the elect upon the 4 winds"! In the same time frame "He raises up and gathers all the saints from earth so these angels may complete the gathering from all extremities of the heavenS out of the same 4 winds"!!!

I'm so glad we find these truths so clearly stated and not be confused in the process.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net