Do You Really Believe The Full Gospel?

Everlasting Punishment

When the wicked have once received their punishment, how enduring will be its effect?
"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment; but the righteous into life eternal." Matt. 25:46.

What is the punishment for sin?
"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Rom. 6:23.
NOTE. - This is the very opposite of eternal life. Everlasting punishment, then, is everlasting death, a death that lasts forever.

How many deaths are there for the wicked?
"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murders, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone; which is the second death." Rev. 21:8.
NOTE. - Good and bad men are alike subject to the first death, but this is a temporal death, which lasts only till the resurrection. After the cases of all men are settled in the judgment, the wicked then die the second death, which is eternal in its effects.

In this fire will there be torment? and how long will it last?
"He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever and ever." Rev. 14:10, 11.
NOTE. - The Greek term translated in this text "forever and ever," has different meanings; according to the connection in which it is used, such as, duration, finite or infinite; unlimited duration, past or future; time, age, lifetime; the world, universe. Greenfield.

How is the term understood in the case of certain Hebrew servants?
"His master shall bore his ear through with an awl; and he shall serve him forever." Ex. 21:6.
NOTE. - He could not serve his master longer than he lived.

For how long a time did Samuel's mother lend him to the Lord to serve in the temple?
"I will bring him, that he may appear before the Lord, and there abide forever." "Therefore also I have lent him to the Lord; as long as he liveth he shall be lent to the Lord." 1 Sam. 1:22, 28.
NOTE. - In this case it is definitely stated to be ''as long as he liveth." Had Samuel lived only a week or a month, the "forever" would have been limited to a week or a month. It is evident that the term "forever" often means "limited duration."

How long was Jonah carried in the whale's belly through the depths?
"I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me forever." Jonah 2:6.
NOTE. - In this case "forever" is limited to three days.

What is the nature of the fire into which the wicked will finally be cast?
"Then shall He say also unto them on the left hand, De- part from Me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the Devil and his angels." Matt. 25:41.

What is said of this fire in another place?
"He will thoroughly purge His floor, and gather His wheat into the garner; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire." Matt. 3:12.
NOTE. - The fire is said to be everlasting because it is not "quenched." If fire is quenched after taking hold upon a house, the structure is saved; but if the fire is unquenchable, it does for the house just what the last quoted text says it will do with the chaff (the wicked) namely burn it up. Such a fire is called "everlasting," because it lasts as long as there is anything for it to prey upon, and because its results are everlasting.

Has everlasting or eternal fire ever been visited upon men in the past?
"Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire." Jude 7.

What was the result of this eternal fire upon those cities?
"And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly." 2 Peter 2:6.
NOTE. - "Everlasting" fire converted these cities into ashes, and the apostle says they were made an ensample to those who should after live ungodly. We cannot for a moment suppose that those cities are now burning; for the saline waters of the Dead Sea rollover the very spot where they stood.

What will be the final effect of this fire on the wicked?
"Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power." 2 Thess. 1:9.

Where must one go to escape from the presence of the Lord and the glory of His power?
"Whither shall I flee from thy presence? If I ascend up into heaven; thou art there: ...if I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea, even there shall thy hand lead me." Ps. 139:7-10.
NOTE. - A time is coming when the glory of the Lord shall fill the earth as the waters cover the sea (Hab. 2:14). That the wicked will have been punished (in the lake of fire surrounding and purifying our earth) "with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power," Then the righteous shall occupy the new earth, and shall "delight themselves in the abundance of peace." (Hab. 2:11; 2 Peter 3:10-13; Rev. 21:1, 5).
-Bible Readings for the Home
http://www.digging4truth.org/

[ February 24, 2003, 05:43 PM: Message edited by: Chrissy ]

 

The idea of eternal torment was never taught by the early Christians. It was something invented when paganism entered the Church.

To have ideas about our loving heavenly Father such as Him burning persons eternally with fire, is the view that Satan wants us to have. He is giving God his own hateful attributes by doing this.

First of all, the idea of natural immorality is wrong and also came from paganism creeping into the church. When we die we wait in the grave till the second coming of Christ.


I Thess. 4:16: For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

what need of Jesus to come to bring us out of our graves if we are already in heaven right after we die?

And think about it, if we die and go immediately to heaven or to hell, this means Hitler who committed all of his horrible attrocities, would burn less time in hell than someone who had committed relatively minor sins in comparison to him and who died a thousand years earlier than him.

Where is the justice in that?

Some Christians also have the idea that Satan is the Overseer of Hell and that he torments people there. But the Bible clearly says that Satan will be burned in the lake of fire... Moreover, it says this:

Ezekiel 28:
17: Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
18: Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19: All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.


The devil himself will be destroyed. Can you imagine God "rewarding" Satan for all his evil by letting him have his thrills in torturing people in hell, forever? These ideas that most Christians today have about death and hell came from pagan fables and have no basis in Scripture.


for more info on what happens when we die and eternal torment:


http://www.egwestate.andrews.edu/gc/gc33.html

http://www.digging4truth.org/Books_Bible11.asp

[ February 24, 2003, 05:10 PM: Message edited by: Chrissy ]

 

See, I thought the whole premise of your other thread was that the fire would go out, not quenched, but would go out from lack of fuel. I must have been confused, I will look over it sometime.

Sorry about the 18:8, yes, I remember. I was just too lazy to go check.

I still disagree with you (are you suprised? ) but thanks a lot for your explanation. I really couldn't remember how you deal with these passages, and I honestly thought you were arguing that the fire of hell would go out one day.

Take care,
Neal

 

Just wondering: if someone is sentenced to life in prison for murder, wouldn't you say that is their punishment, not punishing?

Neal

 

Read about the pagan origin of the doctrine of eternal torment:

---------

"The main features behind the pure demon worship of ancient Babylon can be seen today by the open worship of the Yezidis of Kurdistan, Armenia, and the Caucasus. In their pagan worship they believe it is "Melek Taus," who is the Devil, that was the co-creator of the world [15]. Their religion today is the worship of both Good and Evil, or Christ and Satan. They have adopted some heretical elements of Christianity, and some precepts of Islam. They regard Jesus as an angel in human form and recognize Muhammad as a Prophet with Abraham. They practice circumcision and baptism. Instead of Christ as the creative agent of the Godhead (Ephesians 3:10), they regard the Devil as the creative agent of the Supreme God, and seek even today to (appease) him as the author of evil. They also avoid mentioning the name of the Devil in fear of offending him [16]. We will study another religious movement that has the dualism of good and evil to be worshipped from today's Rock Era a little later. This study should be particularly interesting for people who called themselves Christians during the epidemic of the Beatle hysteria.
The Yezedis, like most pagans, believe their destinies are not determined by a good, loving, kind and gentle God, but by the Evil One, who has no mercy, who delights in destroying mankind. They believe that the good God will forgive no matter how they regard him. But, it is the Evil One whose favor they must secure. He, as the destructive deity, must be pacified by offering him sacrifice, penance, and worship.
Is this not similar to how multitudes who call themselves Christians are led to worship the Lord of the Scriptures? Is it not pictured by erring priests and pastors that God is a vengeful God, who is ever waiting to cast the unrepentant into a burning place of torment, or sent the repentant to purgatory, so they may be tortured by fire until they suffer enough to be purified for Heaven? Is it not screamed, dramatized and shouted to congregations about how gruesome are the tortures of them who are now, so they say, in Hell, the burning place of torment?
There is hardly a Christian denomination that doesn't teach the doctrine of Life After Death or Immortality of the Soul. But the Bible clearly states that no one lives on after death. "For the living know that they shall die: But THE DEAD KNOW NOT ANYTHING, neither have they any more a reward: for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished: neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun." Ecclesiastes 9:5,6.
from : -The New Age and the Illuminati 666

READ MORE :
http://www.benabraham.com/html/illuminati_-_1a.html

 

hmmmmmmmmmm... I would like to get that book "The Fire that consumes" by Edward Fudge, it sounds like a good one.

 

Just wondering: if someone is sentenced to life in prison for murder, wouldn't you say that is their punishment, not punishing?

Neal </font>[/QUOTE]You set yourself up on that one Neal!

If someone is sentenced to the DEATH penalty, and they are KILLED (that means DEAD) wouldn't you say that was their punishment, not punishing?



When my kids are deserving of a (you know what) the punishMENT is only temporal right? But while it is going on, it is called punishING.

Get it?

The punishMENT for sin is DEATH.
The punishING we go through in this life is temporal. Like jail, or even chastining by the Lord. It doesn't last through the ceaseless ages of eternity.

I did a quick search of the word 'punishing' and came up with NOTHING.

Here are some key verses I found on the punishment of the wicked.

Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

This would be in comparison to the Children of Israel who didn't inherit the Promise Land. Spiritual application? The wicked will not inherit heaven.

Job 31:3 Is not destruction to the wicked? and a strange punishment to the workers of iniquity?

Here we see, cut and dry, that the destruction of the wicked is their punishment. This 'strange' punishment that God must do that is AGAINST His nature, but that HE MUST do.

Here is some more of that 'strange' punishment:

Isa 28:21 For the LORD shall rise up as in mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act.
Isa 28:22 Now therefore be ye not mockers, lest your bands be made strong: for I have heard from the Lord GOD of hosts a consumption, even determined upon the whole earth.

I cannot help but point out the corelation of that verse with this one:

Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
Mal 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.
Mal 4:4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.
Mal 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
Mal 4:6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

Why would He do this?

Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things that that of Abel.
Heb 12:25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:
Heb 12:26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.
Heb 12:27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
Heb 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
Heb 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.

And the Truth shall set you free.

God Bless

 

Edward Fudge is a major proponent of annihilationism and he speaks to SDA churches. I think he has two books on the subject. His website is www.edwardfudge.com. </font>[/QUOTE]I am waiting for the point of your question.

I haven't read it, WHY do you ask?

God Bless

 

Ken,

I just noticed you are from Arkansas.

I just moved from there.

We were in Crosset. We still own a house there (for now).

Where are you?

God Bless

 

3AM,

I see what you are saying, but at the same time if someone was to ask me what the man's punishment was, I would say life in prison. I would not say it is his punishing. What I am getting at is that it is not unheard of to use punishment in the sense of something ongoing.

Neal

 

Hi Me2,

I JUST saw your post. DUH!

Oh yes, yes - a brandy new spirit at the moment He opened my mind and heart and I received HIS love. I SAW Him crucified for ME.

I often forget though and I keep checking to see if my old man is really dead. I KNOW she's dead, but experientially speaking she's sometimes quite alive and kicking. If you get my drift. That's when His grace is the most powerfully sufficient. I suspect a trip to the Lake of Fire is in store for me. God's fiery love of sanctification.

Fixing my eyes on Jesus, the Author and Finisher of my faith.

I bless you, dear Me2.

GH

 

GH,

It always seems confusing when we lose track of the knowledge that all men receive two bodies and two spirits..

all men die physically..all men receive a new uncorruptable body.

all mens "old" spirits are thrown into..
the "lake of fire". ie the beast"

all men receive a new spirit..the spirit of the new man..Jesus.
the "image" mentioned from the beginning of our creation.

no soul is ever "lost"..

You will always be a blessing to me..
just being yourself...

God Loves You, GH...and
Me2

 

Dear 3AM,
I’m sorry this is a long post, but I hope you’ll bear with me.
You wrote:
I would first ask that you support that idea from scripture, seeing as how my heart is still exceedingly wicked, (who can know it?) and I am the chief of sinners.
I reply:
2 Cor. 5:17: Whoever from now on is a follower of Christ, is a new creation: old things have passed away; 18 and all things have BECOME NEW through God WHO HAS RECONCILED US TO HIMSELF BY JESUS CHRIST, and has given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 for God was in Christ, who has reconciled the world with HIS MAJESTY, NOT COUNTING THEIR SINS AGAINST THEM; and has committed to US the word of reconciliation.
Gal:6:15: For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision (religious practices designed to gain acceptance or favor in God’s eyes) nor uncircumcision (non-religious practices designed to gain acceptance or favor in God’s eyes) , but it is a NEW CREATION that counts.
As I stated above:
Those who have tasted and seen the goodness of the Lord's forgiveness do NOT WANT TO SIN. He sanctifies us over time - little by little as we come to Him for these sins that we wrestle with. For we KNOW that His yoke is easy and His burden is light. We KNOW He is our sweet Friend and Savior. We cannot change ourselves apart from the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit. That would be just cleaning up the old man - the old sin nature. No, we have been made new creations. Given a new mind and a new heart - we want to please Him.

I add:
The old nature has a heart that is deceitful and desperately wicked and it is carnal. It is based on external things – what I must do, not what God has already done. The new creature has a heart that cries out, “Abba Father.” A new heart created in the image of God. And again, a heart that wants to please God. This new heart is spiritual - relying on a relationship with God based in His love. We love because He first loved us.
I wrote: As Leon, Ken and I have shown the word eternal is only applied to God. It has been mistranslated from the Greek to apply to age abiding things. ie. It is written that Sodom and Gomorrah would burn forever and ever and yet elsewhere scripture states that God will restore them.
You replied:
And again where is it said that Sodom and Gomorrah will be 'restored'? I agree that the eternal nature is only applied to God, but that is only NOW. The righteous will revieve immortality and eternal life.
I reply:
Eze 16:55 When thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate. (If you read this in context you’ll see that God will restore according to a new covenant.)

Also:
That He is the savior of the world, all men, - (1 Tim 4:10 and 1 John 4:14)
That He does save all mankind to the utmost, - (Heb 7:25).
That He will make all things new, - (Rev 21:5).
That Jesus will draw all men unto Himself, - ( John 12:32).
That He has ransomed all men, - (1 Tim 2:6).
That He does justify all men, - ( Rom 5:18).
That Christ had tasted death for every man, - ( 2 Cor 5:15).
That He will make everyone alive, - (Rom 5:18 and 1 Cor 15:22-28).
That He does destroy all the works of the devil, - (1 John 3:8).
That all the iniquity of men, was laid on Him, - (Isa 53:6).
That Jesus Christ did take away the 'sin' of the world, - ( John 1:29).
That He did die for all, - ( 2 Cor 5:15).
That every knee will bow unto Christ Jesus, - (Phil 2:9).
That every tongue will confess righteousness and strength in the Lord, -( Phil 2:9).
That He will have mercy on all men, - (Rom 11:32).
That every creature in heaven and on earth will say, blessing and honor be unto Him, the Lamb, - (Rev 5:3).
That He does abolish all death and sorrows, - (1 John 3:8 and Rev 21:5 and Isa 25:8).
That all the ends of the earth will turn to Him and worship Him, - (Psa 22:27).
That God will restore everything, - (Act 3:21).
That there is a renewal of all things when Christ sits on His throne, - (Matt18:28).
That it is God’s will for all men to be saved, and His will cannot be thwarted, - (1 Tim 2:4 and Isa 46:10).
That Jesus is the Good Shepherd, who seeks and saves every lost lamb, - (John 10:2).
That He is the propitiation (covering) for the sins of the whole world, - (1 John 2:2).
That all the promises of God are yea and amen, in Christ – 2 Cor. 1:20
Every knee will bow…every tongue will confess to God. Rom. 14:11 NIV
Universal restoration. Acts 3:19, 21 NEB
God will restore EVERYTHING. Acts 3:19, 21 NIV
In you all families of the earth shall be blessed. Gen. 12:3 NKJV
And in you and in your seed all families of the earth shall be blessed. Gen. 28:14 NKJV
In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed. Gen. 26:4 NKJV
All the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him. (Abraham) Gen. 18:18 NKJV
As He planned, so shall it be. Isaiah 14:24, 27 NIV
Swears every knee will bow and every tongue will swear to Him. Isaiah 45: 22:24
That He will reconcile all His enemies - (Col 1:20). (Reconciliation has to do with estrangement, not lostness. The estranged (or enemies) are reconciled. The lost are saved.)
3AM, what righteousness did you receive apart from God’s grace, sis? Righteousness is imputed to us based on Christ’s finished work on the cross. Remember – no boasting allowed. It comes purely from God’s mercy extended toward us – while we were yet sinners Christ died for the ungodly. And we can certainly agree to disagree about this – You believe perhaps that YOU CHOSE HIM. I believe that HE CHOSE ME.
I wrote:
Contradictions in the word are meant to be brought to the Lord for clarification to one's own heart.
You replied:
Which contradictions? The Bible supports annihilation 100%. There is not ONE SINGLE verse that can be used to 'contradict' the idea that God will literally, physically, and eternally destroy the wicked and all sin from off the face of the earth. NOT ONE.
I reply:
Here is ample scripture to at least cause one to consider another view.
I post again these links which will refute your statement, I believe:
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/EternalDeath.html - about eternal death (annihilation)

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html - the first 500 years of Christianity

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/ScripturalProofs.html - 100 scriptural proofs of universal salvation

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/DoctrineOfRetribution.html
I wrote:
Not merely forming an opinion, but for enlightenment and understanding through love - which is our Lord's nature. To restore all things and bring all under His government.
You replied:
He is not going to restore all things. He is going to DESTROY, and then Create a NEW Heaven and Earth. There will be NOTHING in the New Creation that is from the Old. My body will be new, and every other person that GAVE their life to Christ, through their own FREE WILL, will have a new body as well. ALL of Creation will be NEW.
I reply:
All will want to please God, 3AM. We perhaps believe differently on how God will bring this to pass.
John 3:36: "He that believeth on the son hath everlasting life; and he that believeth not on the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him." Here Jesus is speaking of eonian life, not eternal life. There are those who will not enjoy the life of the two eons following the present one, but they will be raised at the consummation of the eons, reconciled to God, and He to them, as a result of the white throne judgment. I believe that Jesus was not speaking of their final state.
I wrote:
He will have all men saved.
You replied:
If it was as simple as Him WILLING that all men be saved, then Jesus would not have had to die! Here is the problem, MEN MUST choose to be saved. That is why it is even stated that God does not WILL that any should PERISH. Because SOME will CHOOSE to perish.
I reply:
But it is simple. The simplicity of the gospel of Jesus Christ is that He would have all men to be saved. His will is irresistible, sis. The promise of what God's will is: "God WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED, and come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:4). And of course, we know, He works ALL THINGS after the counsel of HIS OWN WILL (Eph. 1:10-11). Paul made it clear in Romans 11:26 that ALL Israel will be saved, not to mention the whole world being reconciled and brought back into God (Rom. 11:15-36). Religious mind-sets cause people to believe that a person cannot be saved except by the volition of his own will. I partially agree. There is a willful act when a man or woman confesses Jesus as their Lord; however, this will originates in Christ and not man. Without the drawing of the Spirit placed in their hearts, it is impossible for anyone to desire God. For instance, ""The carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be" (Rom. 8:7). And, "No man can come to Me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him..." (John 6:44). However, there will be a day when every man, every woman, and every child will know God; for Jesus said with assurance -- "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw (Grk. drag, coil or wrap) all men unto Me" (John 12:32).
God's purpose is accomplished through the Son -- period! Anything that is not found in Christ will be destroyed with God's holy fire. (1 Cor. 3:11-13) "All things will be summed up in Christ and All things will be filled with Him." (Eph. 1:10; 4:10) The scriptures, from beginning to end, speak of Christ. It's words, prophecies, and types all glorify the Son of His love. "He is the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End." (Rev. 1:11) He is the Author and Finisher of our faith (Heb. 12:2) and the firstborn of every creature (Col. 1:15). He is the head of the Church (Col. 1:18) and the only One found worthy to open the book (Rev. 5:9). He is our redeemer and the Savior of ALL men. (1 Tim. 4:10) It is only by the work of the Cross that ALL things will be brought into subjection to Christ. Let all men submit to this great work that He might have the preeminence in ALL things. (Col. 1:18) Victory can only be found in our Lord Jesus Christ! (2 Cor. 2:14)
I wrote:
Can we not pray that prayer with full confidence?
You replied:
We can pray all we want for things, but that doesn't mean it will happen. It is according to God's will that my brother be saved, but he is a pot head and hasn't set foot in a church in over 5 years, and treats his family like strangers, and (you get the point). So for me to say that it is as simple as you make it out to be, then it would negate the necessity to even pray for his conversion. If he is going to be saved in the end, I might as well leave him be, and let him do what he wants!
I reply:
"No man can come to Me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him..." (John 6:44). Keep praying, sis. May your brother know Him now and walk in newness of life.
I wrote:
For He is able to to give more than we could ever ask or imagine - for His mercy triumphs over judgement.
You replied:
His Mercy is given as a gift to those who ask for it. He died for every sin of all of mankind so that every man of all of mankind would have the opportunity to receive that Mercy. His mercy will only cover those in judgment who ASKED for His mercy.
I reply:
Gal 6:14: But as for me, I have nothing on which to boast, except the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me and I crucified unto the world. Again, what do you have that hasn’t been given to you? Unless, dear sister, you think you can do something to gain your gifts. J But scripture says otherwise – God gives gifts.

Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God [are] without repentance.
Rom 12:6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is GIVEN to us, whether prophecy, [let us prophesy] according to the proportion of faith;
1Cr 12:1 Now concerning spiritual [gifts], brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
1Cr 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
1Cr 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
1Cr 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps (mercy), governments, diversities of tongues.

Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and GAVE gifts unto men.
I wrote:
May we know how high and deep and wide is His love for all.
You wrote:
We do know how high and deep and wide His love is.

He is not going to stick all of the faithful followers of Christ in Heaven with a bunch of heathens that just came out of hell. He loves us THAT MUCH that He is going to erradicate sin and sinners from the entire universe, so that those TO WHOM THE PROMISE WAS MADE will KNOW that He loved us. SO MUCH that He sent His Son to die for ALL SIN. And since He died for all sin, that sin will be GONE. POOF. Up in smoke.

(you know that smoke that will ascend forever and ever)

There is NO WAY possible that God, in HIS JUSTICE, would allow an eternity to go by while his creatures are suffering.

And by that I am referring to ME.

It would be a terrible thing for the faithful of God to have to spend eternity with the very ones who persecuted them, and reviled them, and even killed them.

How is that just? How is that merciful?

Annihilation is merciful. If they didn't want God's free gift, then that is their choice. The wages of sin is death.

If you don't take the free gift of Christ's atonement for that sin, then YOU PAY the penalty.

DEATH.

God Bless

I reply:

For He must continue King until He puts all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that is to be overthrown is Death; for He will have put all things in subjection under His feet. And when He shall have declared that "All things are in subjection," it will be with the manifest exception of Him who has reduced them all to subjection to Him. But when the whole universe has been made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also become subject to Him who has made the universe subject to Him, in order that GOD may be ALL IN ALL. 1 Cor. 15:25-28

Sorry, but anyone else paying the penalty just isn't the good news. He did what no one else could do.

Jesus said do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Does He not do this as well? Father forgive them, they know not what they do.

Whew, this is a long post and I’m loath to do scripture battle for my focus is to lift up the finished work of Jesus Christ on the Cross of Calvary. Well, I know that we see things differently but I also know that we both love the Savior with an undying love and have peace and love with faith from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Eph. 6:24 \o/

God’s blessings on you, too.

Peace, GH

 

GH,

I am a long poster, I am used to it. This will be long.

I can't possibly respond to all of that, but I will say this:

That passage you quoted is out of context. SEVERELY.

My notes in parentheses

1 Corinthians 15

1. Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2. By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. (so if you DON'T keep in memory what he preached then you are NOT saved)
3. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4. And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
5. And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
6. After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep. (dead)
7. After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
8. And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
9. For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
10. But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me. (he mentions his labor but gives credit to GOD for the outcome)
11. Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed.
12. Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? (here we see the point of this rebuke, that some were saying that there was no resurrection of the dead. We see this again today. People believing that in death we are sent to heaven with no resurrection, and are then reinserted into our bodies at the second coming)
13. But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14. And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
15. Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
16. For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17. And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. (so if the dead do not rise from their sleep, then Jesus could not have risen, and all our work is in vain)
18. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. (those IN Christ would be just like those who have died WITHOUT Christ, PERISHED)
19. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
20. But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. (He is the firstfruit of those who sleep. Lazarus was raised, so were others, but yet HE is the FIRSTFRUIT that was actually RAISED immortal.)
21. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. (all shall be resurrected)
23. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (here is the kicker. Jesus FIRST, which is already done, and THEN those who are in Christ AT His coming, ruling out any doctrine which says people go right to heaven when they die)
24. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. (then we see the end of all things, Jesus gives the power to God the Father after Jesus rules in Judgment at the Great White Throne)
25. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. (All enemies are put under His control. They are judged and are sentenced.)
26. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. (and now to put an end to death forever)
27. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. (He HAS put all things in His control by the One who excepted Him, that is THE FATHER, when He, Himself defeated death by His resurrection, and the Father gave Him control, and the seat of Power and Judgment)
28. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. (it is a process, we see that Jesus finalized the take over through His act of death and resurrection, but the actual event that will put away death forever will be the thing that brings in the realization of this statement. Once this happens there will only be those who are of God, and therefore God will be ALL there is, for He will be IN ALL.)
29. Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead? (he then speaks sarcastically of those who are in apostacy and are baptizing for the dead. He mocks them saying 'why are they doing this strange thing if it makes no difference? If there is no resurrection, then they don't need to be baptized' He points here to the importance of proper baptism, and that it IS elementary to the Saving of the Soul)
30. And why stand we in jeopardy every hour?
31. I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily. (he speaks to their shame, that because of their actions he is having problems with his own efforts)
32. If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die. (he mocks again, seeing how if there is NOTHING to worry about, and there is NO resurrection, and all that happens is you live and die and there is nothing that can be done to make any difference, then why not just eat drink and be merry and then die? Sounds a little something like my previous post)
33. Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners. (telling all these falsehoods to people make it very hard to be convincing)
34. Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame. (STOP SINNING he said. WAKE UP he said. WHY? Because there are still people who do not have the knowledge of God! WHY would they need the knowlede of God? BECAUSE it is the POWER of GOD to SALVATION. He speaks this to their SHAME that they are not being an effective witness, for the cause of Christ. If all are saved in the end, WHY WOULD HE BOTHER? If there is NO judgment, and no resurrection, becuase the two GO TOGETHER, then we might as well eat drink and DIE.)
35. But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? (and here he addresses questions that have been asked on this very board. People are going to ask this, he said. They are going to want to know about this resurrection business, so I am going to tell you what to say.)
36. Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: (here is the kicker, unless a man DIES, that is in his physical body, that Person cannot be brought back to life. The body must DIE. Not be separated, soul from body, for that wouldn't work with this situation would it? It would need to DIE. So that it can be made alive again. If the soul of a man leaves at 'death' and goes to heaven, then HOW is it going to be quickened? If it left and went to heaven it isn't DEAD!)
37. And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: (he is speaking of the literal thing that will happen to the flesh, it will return to dust, and something will grow out of it. This body that is 'sown' or buried at death is not what it 'shall be', meaning that the body that we now have will not be what is resurrected)
38. But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. (God will give a NEW body to those in Christ, even His OWN body)
39. All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40. There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. (we are shown here that he is telling us there is a difference in the flesh of all of God's creations. Man is different from animal, and angels. The 'glory' of things HERE are different from the 'glory'of things THERE. So in other words, what man sees is not what is really there. We see what our eyes let us see, but there is a bigger picture)
42. So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: (the resurrection is JUST LIKE THAT. It is buried as a mortal, fleshly, corrupt body, and God will raise it as an immortal, spiritual, incorrupt body.)
43. It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44. It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. (you see here that there is not a natural body that has a spirit in it, but rather that there is a natural body, that you are in now, that will die someday and be 'sown'. And there is a spiritual body that we will receive one day at the resurrection of Life)
45. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. (we are all sons and daughters of the first man. We are living souls (nephesh chay) THROUGH the new birth we are now sons and daughters of the second Adam, Jesus. Just like Jesus we will be made alive through the Spirit on resurrection morn, in the form of a spirit.
46. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. (we see again the comparison that separates the two, the natural comes first, and then the spiritual, they are not together. We are natural NOW, and when we die, and are 'sown' we sleep awaiting the resurrection. There is order to it. It is AT the resurrection that the spiritual takes place)
47. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. (here on earth all men are like Adam, and in heaven all creatures are spirit like Jesus after His resurrection. We too will be like the Angels, and Jesus with a spiritual body at the resurrection.)
49. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. (We are NOW bearing the image of Adam, and when the resurrection happens we will THEN (and only then) bear the image of the heavenly, which is to say we will be spirit)
50. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. (how we are now, cannot go into heaven. We must first be changed by God at the resurrection before we can go in. It is that simple. If we are NOW like Adam, natural, corrupt, mortal, we CANNOT enter into the Kingdom of God. ONLY once Christ has returned and 'awakened' all to His Glory, and we are changed, can we enter in.)
51. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (we see that he even tells us again when this will happen. Not everyone will die, some will see the coming of Christ. The dead who were sleeping will rise up first, and put off this flesh that is carnal, and natural and we will put on immortality and incorrupt spiritual bodies. Those alive will be changed to spirit, they will put off the flesh, like a 'tent' and then put on the immortal body.)
53. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. (Because we MUST put it on. YOU CANNOT inherit the kingdom without it. WE MUST put on this body.)
54. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. (THEN we will be immortal, then and ONLY then will WE have put on incorruption, and THEN can it be said that DEATH is swallowed up. THEN. NOT NOW.)
55. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? (this too cannot be said until then, because both are still here now.)
56. The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. (the reason there is death is because of sin, and the reason you know sin is because there is a law. When Jesus died did it take away the law? Some would say yes. This verse says no. It is not until the resurrection that death is swallowed up, and until death is swallowed up, there will be sin, and until there is no more sin, there will be law.)
57. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. (but we HAVE the victory over....the law? NO! Over SIN, through Jesus. Because HE overcame death, AND, He over came SIN. So we can claim HIS victory for ourselves and receive the reward that HE earned. LIFE.
58. Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord. (SO! He said, KNOW THIS, he said, do not quit, do NOT be moved, ALWAYS do the WORK of the Lord. BECAUSE OF THIS you know that you labor is not in vain.)

Because of what?

Because we KNOW that there is a resurrection of the dead. SO because we know this, DO NOT stop doing all the things that God has told you to do.

Why? Because there is MORE than ONE resurrection.

Which one do you think they wanted to be in?

There is a difference. One is to LIFE.

One is to judgment, contempt, and DEATH.

It is a nice jesture to say that eveyone will get to go to heaven, but the Bible, in just this one chapter, proves that there is a reason to serve God instead of sin.

That reason is LIFE.

The wages of sin is DEATH, BUT...BUT....BUT!!!!!

The Gift of GOD is ETERNAL LIFE, through....THROUGH WHAT?????......Through a little bit of hell to burn off the rebellious spirit?.....through a short season of suffering so that they can be redeemed?......NO!....it is ONLY through FAITH....through a conscious choice to BE IN.....JESUS CHRIST.......OUR LORD.

He is not eveyone's Lord.

He will ONLY save those who He was Lord of.

Who will God's wrath abide on, if ALL are saved from it?

Hmmmmmm

You said:
Sorry, but anyone else paying the penalty just isn't the good news. He did what no one else could do.

I reply:
The good news (the Gospel) is that Jesus died for you, so that you don't have to die for your own sins, and that you can accept this free gift. He died. That was the penalty.

The reason HIS death was able to wipe out all sin is because He was WITHOUT sin.

THAT is what He did that no one else could do.

EVERYONE can die.

You said:
His will is irresistible.

I reply:
Then we are but slaves. There is no fear in love, because perfect love casts out fear. We love Him because He gave us the choice to love Him. If we were forced to love Him, through His 'irresistable' will, then it would no longer be an act of will, but an act of involuntary devotion. Which is also known as FEAR.

He doesn't MAKE anyone DO anything. EVER.

Mary, could have said no.
Paul, could have said no.
JESUS, could have said NO.

It took an act of WILL on each of their parts to DO GOD'S will.

I will pray for you that this cloak of deception will be taken from your eyes.

That you may see again, the Truth from God.

I ask you the same thing that Paul asked the Galatians:

WHO has bewitched you? WHO made you think that you received the Spirit without the hearing of FAITH?

God Bless

 

Are any of you Adrian Bible Students?

 

Dear 3,

Thanks for your prayers, sis. I surely need them. I as well will keep you in mine.

This little robot is happy in Christ. When I saw and understood what He did for me on the cross, I guess I fell in love - deeply in love with Him. I felt I had ONLY ONE CHOICE - to follow HIM and HIM ONLY (Father, Son and Holy Spirit).

If, as you say, we have a choice - then I choose love.

Here's a quote from Andrew Jukes:

"By an eternal law, we must more or less be changed into the likeness of the God we worship. If we think Him hard, we become hard. If we think Him careless of men’s bodies and souls, we shall be careless also. If we think Him love, we shall reflect something of His loving-kindness."

It's my prayer for myself that I reflect HIS loving-kindness.

Blessings to you in the Savior,

GH

 

GH,

Wow, I feel like I wasted my time.

Food for thought.....since you don't intend to respond to my post.

Jer 9:23. Thus saith the Lord, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches:
24. But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the Lord which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the Lord.
25. Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will punish all them which are circumcised with the uncircumcised;
26. Egypt, and Judah, and Edom, and the children of Ammon, and Moab, and all that are in the utmost corners, that dwell in the wilderness: for all these nations are uncircumcised, and all the house of Israel are uncircumcised in the heart.

GOD IS LOVE. In HIS love, He justly judges.

You have fallen in love with a god that doesn't exist.

I am praying for your deliverance from this dellusion.

God Bless