Do You Really Believe The Full Gospel?

[Me2]

CC,
This is a parable..Its concering Gods Adopted Family..some odedient some disobedient.

the obedient those who accept Jesus as their Lord.
the move into the numbers of his elect.

while others move into the catagory of denying Jesus as their Lord. mixing Law with Grace.

there are those though as we see members of Gods family not yet in either group..the babes and children who are still being obedient to jesus but yet their faith has not been tried. and not having been determined to go left or right.

and this has nothing to do with any others
OUTSIDE GODS FAMILY...only "within" and also this has nothing to do with being judged after death.

where righteousness can be imputed on all as God Determines what is Fair and Just.

Me2

 

[neal4christ]

So why would it bother you if someone does not come to Christ until the next age?

That wouldn't bother me, but I wouldn't go around believing it and telling that to others, because there is no basis for it other than your opinion.

Neal

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by neal4christ:
because there is no basis for it other than your opinion.

If we stop and think about it, there is a lot of what we talk about in Christianity that is someone's opinion.

If that was not the case, there wouldn't be hundreds of denominations and various factions within these denominations, and just look at the plethora of debates that take place daily on the Baptist Board.

 

[3AngelsMom]

Ken,

The problem I have with that, is the parable is talking about ONLY people who worked.

The 'day' is talking about TIME.

Once Jesus comes back there won't be time anymore.

The next age that is ushered in will have NO sin. NO people who sin.

I have another question.

What about witches and blatant devil worshippers?

DO THEY get to go to heaven too? Do you think they WANT TO?

I'm sorry, but if I was a satan worshipper, I wouldn't want to go to heaven.

What did you mean by 'what benifit does sinning have'?

God Bless

 

[Smoky]

Note this sobering text:

Mt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Now perhaps there is a parabolic understanding to this. If so, I am open to hear of it and consider it, but the words themselves are a considerable warning to all who have "ears to hear". Prior to that, our Lord talks about the "wicked and unprofitable servant" being cast into darkness. I think we ought not take these things too lightly.

Brother Ed, I agree that these are sobering texts, and I don't believe in taking them too lightly either. These are texts that should be feared, because they teach us about the judgment of God. However, what about all the other scriptures given by the author of this thread that seem to teach final restoration? When there are scriptures that seem to contradict, obviously they have to be reconciled at some point. Sometimes this has to be done by making a not so obvious interpretation for some of them. But this is often done on either side of an issue, depending on which side you are on and what you are trying to prove. My basic orientation of God is that He is a God of love and that even His judgments come as a result of His love. Sometimes this has to be tough love, but if it is love, I believe that it is accomplished through a remedial punishment designed to purge us and bring us back. I don't have a parabolic interpretation of Matthew 25:41 accept to say that "everlasting" is the greek "aionios" which can mean "age induring" or "pertaining to an age" Some take this to mean that eternal punishment (age induring punishment) is a punishment which lasts long enough to accomplish its purpose and then ends. There are other "age induring" things in the scriptures that we know came to an end: Paul spoke of a "mystery that was kept secret for long ages (aionios) but is now disclosed. Rom.16:25-26.I think that the Jews during the time of Christ had developed a belief system that refered to two ages, the present evil age, and the age to come where the will of God would be done perfectly. So Eternal punishment was that punishment pertaining to the age of God. When we refer to Eternal life as the gift of God we know we are not refering to a life that is merely unending but to a quality of life possesed by God Himself and that only He can give. Extending this to Eternal punishment then means the kind of remedial punishment which it befits God to give and which only God can give. Concerning Eternal fire, Mark mentions in conjunction with this that "everyone will be salted with fire" What can "being salted" mean other that being preserved or made better? Also 1 Cor.3:13-15 speaks of our works being tested by fire and if anyone's work is burned up, he shall suffer loss but he himself will be saved but only through fire.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:
1)What about witches and blatant devil worshippers?

2)What did you mean by 'what benefit does sinning have'?

1) They are in need of redemption just like you and me. Jesus paid the total price for their sins, too.

2) I thought you were saying if one can be saved in the next age, then why not sin to the hilt in this age? My point is that we do not benefit from sinning - we do harm to ourselves and others when we sin - so we have every reason to resist sinning in this age regardless of whether one is saved in this age or the next age.

 

[3AngelsMom]

Ken,

I am not trying to say that the basest of sinners are not in need of Jesus, I am referring to the fact that they don't WANT anything to do with Jesus.

If what you say is true, they are NOT going to be happy in heaven. They love the devil, and don't WANT to go to heaven.

About the sin. How can you say that? Who does it hurt to have sex over and over again with someone you aren't married to? If both parties involved are consenting, it brings only pleasure! Especially if the people are totally reprobate. (I hope you can see that I am being sarcastic to prove a point)

You aren't getting the point! Why shouldn't we just live it up and do what we want if Jesus is going to redeem eveyone in the world?

Do YOU refrain from sin?

Why?

If in the end we all get Heaven, why bother?

I am a SDA, and I believe that the wicked will be annihilated. I don't believe in eternal torment.

In that light, what is the point of ANY Gospel?

If Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, and all people EVEN THOSE WHO DON'T BELIEVE, get redeemed, why tell anyone ANYTHING?

God Bless

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:
I am a SDA, and I believe that the wicked will be annihilated. I don't believe in eternal torment.

Have you read Edward Fudge's books advocating the annihilationist viewpoint?

 

[Born Again Catholic]

Matthew 25:46: "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Not limited punishment but then God will bestow a blessing on them and annihilate them thereby relieving your punishment.

Annihilation is contrary to scripture.

[ February 24, 2003, 12:35 AM: Message edited by: Born Again Catholic ]

 

[neal4christ]

If we stop and think about it, there is a lot of what we talk about in Christianity that is someone's opinion.

Yes, I would agree Ken. But that does not make it right.

You do good dodging the real questions and changing subjects. Have fun and I hope for your sake you are right. There is everything to lose if you are wrong (mislead people), and nothing to lose if I am wrong (everyone would be saved no matter what I say). So just on that basis, I will stick to the Scriptural view of punishment for the wicked, not heaven.

See you around,

Neal

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by Born Again Catholic:
Matthew 25:46: "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Not limited punishment but then God will bestow a blessing on them and annihilate them thereby relieving your punishment.

Annihilation is contrary to scripture.

Not unless you can prove that the wicked receive immortality.

The Bible says no less than 10 times that the wicked will be DESTROYED.

Last I checked that doesn't equal eternal torment.

Note that passage you quoted doesn't say eternal punishING, but punishment. The punishment is eternal. They will be forever destroyed. Nothing and no one will be able to reverse the destruction that takes place.

NOW, our LIFE has the same reasoning. We are GIVEN a LIFE that is ETERNAL. NOTHING AND NOONE CAN CHANGE OR TAKE IT AWAY!!!!

Eternal LIFE, the GIFT God gives to those who believe on Him.

Same thing.

Eternal DEATH. (since THAT is the punishment for sin, not torment) Is what those who DO NOT believe on Him receive.

It is really quite simple when you throw out centuries of false tradition, and only use the Bible.

Thanks.

God Bless

 

[GH]

Dear 3AM,

you wrote:

The Bible says no less than 10 times that the wicked will be DESTROYED.

I reply for your prayerful consideration:

Did your wickedness not perish when you believed? Was it not destroyed? The wicked perish when they come to believe. They become believers.

As Leon, Ken and I have shown the word eternal is only applied to God. It has been mistranslated from the Greek to apply to age abiding things. ie. It is written that Sodom and Gomorrah would burn forever and ever and yet elsewhere scripture states that God will restore them. Contradictions in the word are meant to be brought to the Lord for clarification to one's own heart. Not merely forming an opinion, but for enlightenment and understanding through love - which is our Lord's nature. To restore all things and bring all under His government.

He will have all men saved. Can we not pray that prayer with full confidence? For He is able to to give more than we could ever ask or imagine - for His mercy triumphs over judgement.

May we know how high and deep and wide is His love for all. Amen.

Peace, GH

 

[Me2]

Hi GH,
Here's a twist to your statements.

Is your "old Man" in Death now and will stay there forever ?..

did you not receive a brand NEW spirit when you beleived jesus rose from the dead...
(where your old man's Spirit is)
(as in spirit only..without soul)

my comment is that I believe God gave you a NEW spirit and attached your soul (personality) to it when He "saved" you. leaving your old spirit in death. and there it stays forever. or until death is emptied into the "lake of fire".
complicated isnt it ?

Me2

 

[GH]

Dear 3AM,

you wrote:

You aren't getting the point! Why shouldn't we just live it up and do what we want if Jesus is going to redeem eveyone in the world?

My reply:

We tell others of the great things that the Lord has done because why? He changes us doesn't He? These changes occur because of His loving grace and acceptance of us. Just as I am....as the old song goes. Those who have tasted and seen the goodness of the Lord's forgiveness do NOT WANT TO SIN. He sanctifies us over time - little by little as we come to Him for these sins that we wrestle with. For we KNOW that His yoke is easy and His burden is light. We KNOW He is our sweet Friend and Savior. We cannot change ourselves apart from the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit. That would be just cleaning up the old man - the old sin nature. No, we have been made new creations. Given a new mind and a new heart - we want to please Him.

We died yet we live by the faith of the Son of God. And this by His grace not of the work of our sinful flesh. If we who are saved and washed in the blood of Christ have these difficulties with the flesh, how much more those who do not know Him?

This is why we speak the gospel and say, "You have been redeemed by Christ on the cross." This in the hope that they may come to know Him now. It's about relationship with the Living God - not living a perfectly sinless life. \o/

Peace, GH

 

[KenH]

While I think the annihilationism idea is better than the eternal torture idea from a Biblical standpoint(the soul is not inherently immortal), I don't think it is true because when Jesus paid for our sins He was not annihilated, just as He is not still being punished for our sins which He would have to be if eternal torture was true.

 

[neal4christ]

Hey 3AM,

I know it is off subject, and I can't remember if we discussed it in the other thread of yours, but what do you do with the two statements in Matthew 18:8 and 25:41 about eternal fire and your belief the fire will one day go out? I can't remember if you addressed this (probably did), but would you mind briefly letting me know.

Thanks,
Neal

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by GH:
[QB] Dear 3AM,

you wrote:

The Bible says no less than 10 times that the wicked will be DESTROYED.

I reply for your prayerful consideration:

Did your wickedness not perish when you believed? Was it not destroyed? The wicked perish when they come to believe. They become believers.

I would first ask that you support that idea from scripture, seeing as how my heart is still exceedingly wicked, (who can know it?) and I am the chief of sinners.

As Leon, Ken and I have shown the word eternal is only applied to God. It has been mistranslated from the Greek to apply to age abiding things. ie. It is written that Sodom and Gomorrah would burn forever and ever and yet elsewhere scripture states that God will restore them.

And again where is it said that Sodom and Gomorrah will be 'restored'? I agree that the eternal nature is only applied to God, but that is only NOW. The righteous will revieve immortality and eternal life.

Contradictions in the word are meant to be brought to the Lord for clarification to one's own heart.

Which contradictions? The Bible supports annihilation 100%. There is not ONE SINGLE verse that can be used to 'contradict' the idea that God will literally, physically, and eternally destroy the wicked and all sin from off the face of the earth. NOT ONE.

Not merely forming an opinion, but for enlightenment and understanding through love - which is our Lord's nature. To restore all things and bring all under His government.

He is not going to restore all things. He is going to DESTROY, and then Create a NEW Heaven and Earth. There will be NOTHING in the New Creation that is from the Old. My body will be new, and every other person that GAVE their life to Christ, through their own FREE WILL, will have a new body as well. ALL of Creation will be NEW.

He will have all men saved.

If it was as simple as Him WILLING that all men be saved, then Jesus would not have had to die! Here is the problem, MEN MUST choose to be saved. That is why it is even stated that God does not WILL that any should PERISH. Because SOME will CHOOSE to perish.

Can we not pray that prayer with full confidence?

We can pray all we want for things, but that doesn't mean it will happen. It is according to God's will that my brother be saved, but he is a pot head and hasn't set foot in a church in over 5 years, and treats his family like strangers, and (you get the point). So for me to say that it is as simple as you make it out to be, then it would negate the necessity to even pray for his conversion. If he is going to be saved in the end, I might as well leave him be, and let him do what he wants!

For He is able to to give more than we could ever ask or imagine - for His mercy triumphs over judgement.

His Mercy is given as a gift to those who ask for it. He died for every sin of all of mankind so that every man of all of mankind would have the opportunity to receive that Mercy. His mercy will only cover those in judgment who ASKED for His mercy.

May we know how high and deep and wide is His love for all.

We do know how high and deep and wide His love is.

He is not going to stick all of the faithful followers of Christ in Heaven with a bunch of heathens that just came out of hell. He loves us THAT MUCH that He is going to erradicate sin and sinners from the entire universe, so that those TO WHOM THE PROMISE WAS MADE will KNOW that He loved us. SO MUCH that He sent His Son to die for ALL SIN. And since He died for all sin, that sin will be GONE. POOF. Up in smoke.

(you know that smoke that will ascend forever and ever)

There is NO WAY possible that God, in HIS JUSTICE, would allow an eternity to go by while his creatures are suffering.

And by that I am referring to ME.

It would be a terrible thing for the faithful of God to have to spend eternity with the very ones who persecuted them, and reviled them, and even killed them.

How is that just? How is that merciful?

Annihilation is merciful. If they didn't want God's free gift, then that is their choice. The wages of sin is death.

If you don't take the free gift of Christ's atonement for that sin, then YOU PAY the penalty.

DEATH.

God Bless

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by neal4christ:
Hey 3AM,

I know it is off subject, and I can't remember if we discussed it in the other thread of yours, but what do you do with the two statements in Matthew 18:8 and 25:41 about eternal fire and your belief the fire will one day go out? I can't remember if you addressed this (probably did), but would you mind briefly letting me know.

Thanks,
Neal

I know I did the 18:8 because I broke it down to the 'hand' 'feet' 'eye' sins, remember?

I don't know if I did 25:41 or not. But I would say the same thing. From what we see in the rest of the Bible, there is no indication that the soul or spirit of man is immortal, and therefore, when cast into that fire, it would kill them.

The fire is everlasting, not the people!

The very nature of the word 'everlasting' is that it doesn't have an end OR a beginning. This fire is everlasting. In order for the lost to spend eternity in that fire, it would first have to be seen that the lost receive immortality.

Now that I went into that, I think I may have opened that text for DHK.

Also, if you look down to v. 46 you will see that the wicked went into everlasting punishment, but the righteous went to everlasting life. It is imoportant to notice that both recieved their reward. The righteous were given LIFE and the wicked were given 'kolasis' (correction, punishment, penalty). Using the Bible to interpret that we know that the penalty for sin is........

Showing that verse to be totally in line with the rest of the continuity of Scripture.

Righteous inherit life.
Wicked are punished with death.

They are the direct opposite.

Did that answer your questions?

God Bless

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by Ken H:
While I think the annihilationism idea is better than the eternal torture idea from a Biblical standpoint(the soul is not inherently immortal), I don't think it is true because when Jesus paid for our sins He was not annihilated, just as He is not still being punished for our sins which He would have to be if eternal torture was true.

Actually that is EXACTLY what Jesus did!

He DIED.

The whole concept of annihilation is that the wicked will be killed. Never to live again because they do NOT receive the gift of LIFE.

The WHOLE reason that Jesus can offer eternal life is because HE defeated DEATH.

He WAS DEAD. He defeated death in that He rose again.

Annihilation is simply death to those who didn't receive eternal life.

Jesus paid the debt. The debt was death.

To those who accept HIS payment, they receive eternal life.

To those who REFUSE His payment, they must take the payment upon themselves.

Through death. That is eternal. Annihilation.

God Bless

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by Ken H:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:
I am a SDA, and I believe that the wicked will be annihilated. I don't believe in eternal torment.

Have you read Edward Fudge's books advocating the annihilationist viewpoint? </font>[/QUOTE]No, why? Should I?