Do You Really Believe The Full Gospel?

[neal4christ]

Can't you speak for yourself, and not quote others to support you? I quoted Jesus, John, and Paul. Yet you quote Barclay? Hmm. I liked the way that Barclay brushed off the eternal punishment bit in Matthew 25:46. He says punishment is remedial and can't really be eternal. But if Christ says it, I guess I will go with Him.

Neal

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Leonk:


I AM A CONVINCED UNIVERSALIST
by William Barclay
I am a convinced universalist. I believe that in the end all men will be gathered into the love of God. In the early days Origen was the great name connected with universalism. I would believe with Origen that universalism is no easy thing. Origen believed that after death there were many who would need prolonged instruction, the sternest discipline, even the severest punishment before they were fit for the presence of God. Origen did not eliminate hell; he believed that some people would have to go to heaven via hell.

Origen was a heretic. He is known as the Father of Arianism. Barclay himself is a modernist, a liberal. You don't present very good references in defence of your case as Neal pointed out. Stich to the Word of God. There is condemnation, eternal condemnation, just as there is life, eternal life. God is a just God.

John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
DHK

 

[Smoky]

Can't you speak for yourself, and not quote others to support you?

Brother Neal, I can very well speek for myself. I just thought William Barclay said it so well that I'd just let him do it. In this case I think I'm the one that's supporting him. However I do respect his reputation as a greek scholar when he interprets the meaning of "kolasis" as remedial punishment. I think, also, that he is able to quote Jesus and Paul too as is made so evident in his article. Do I seek support from others more knowlegable than myself though? Of course I do!

 

[neal4christ]

Do I seek support from others more knowlegable than myself though? Of course I do!

So if I give you quotes that take the opposing view from people who have more knowledge than you, will you believe them?

Neal

 

[3AngelsMom]

Neal,

You thought you had it bad when I was debating hell with you HUH?

Do you miss me?

I see a spaceship following a comet in their future.

To the land of race car ya ya's.

Have fun.

BY THE WAY

Who ever posted that Annihilationists don't believe that the wicked get resurrected needs to clarify something.

The Bible says that the Righteous are Resurrected and THEN 1000 years go by. THEN the wicked are resurrected.

I have always thought that I was an Annihilationist. If that is one of the qualities (that they don't believe in a total resurection) I need to find a new category!!!

Clarify please.

God Bless

 

[3AngelsMom]

DHK,

Stich to the Word of God

I like that! Only spelled correctly!

STITCH.

That's cool.

Think about it.

 

[neal4christ]

Neal,

You thought you had it bad when I was debating hell with you HUH?

Do you miss me?

At least you believe that there iss some sort of punishment and don't think that the wicked would be in heaven!

Yes, I find your doctrine much more in line with Scripture than the Universalist doctrine (though I still don't agree with yours ). Theirs is much more dangerous.

I hope you are doing well out there in CA.

I don't know why I get into these discussions about hell, but I seem drawn to them!

Neal

 

[3AngelsMom]

Neal,

What I'm trying to figure out is what you are doing up at such an unGodly hour?

It is only 1 here.

 

[neal4christ]

What I'm trying to figure out is what you are doing up at such an unGodly hour?

Well, there are a few reasons.

I am naturally a night owl.
I have problems sleeping sometimes, insomnia if you will.
I work at UPS on the midnight shift Sunday night through Thursday night, so I don't usually go to bed until 5 or after in the morning. My body is just in the habit now.
Oh yeah, I crashed last night and slept 12 hours (unheard of for me!) and I did not get up until 4:15 this afternoon!

So a combination of those things, plus I am working on some schoolwork!

Neal

 

[3AngelsMom]

Neal,

I find it interesting that God has already made it possible for you to keep the Sabbath Holy without it conflicting with your work schedule.

Happy Sabbath Brother

God Bless

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by neal4christ:
At least you believe that there is some sort of punishment and don't think that the wicked would be in heaven!

Christian universalists believe there is a place called hell where those who are not saved in this age suffer and no one will be wicked when they go into heaven. Remember, before you and I were saved, we were numbered among the wicked.

One of the things I have noticed about people generally is that if that don't agree with someone they don't represent what that person is saying accurately. And that is a real drag on having a good discussion.

 

[Smoky]

So if I give you quotes that take the opposing view from people who have more knowledge than you, will you believe them?

I will consider them! I already have considered some, as well everyone should, but what I try not to do is have my mind already made up before I study different sides to an issue. There is a lot of contradictory scholarship that each individual has to reconsile for himself. There are also seemingly contradictory scriptures that need to be reconsiled. I think you do this by going to the Lord in prayer and asking Him for guidance. I think this happens when one comes to recognize the very nature and character of God as a God of love and as a heavenly Father for more compitant than any earthly father could be. Ask any earthly father how far they would like to go in the punishment of their children.

 

[GH]

Beautiful, Leon.

Father is love and in Him there is no darkness and yet.......He created darkness.

So much to seek Him for.

His nature is love - wouldn't it be a good thing to seek that revelation of HIM?

Blessings to you in Christ Jesus.

GH

 

[KenH]

Good point. I wonder if any fathers or mothers on this board, are still punishing their children for something they did as a child. If a parent did that, we all know what we would think of such a parent.

 

[Smoky]

Barclay himself is a modernist, a liberal. You don't present very good references in defence of your case

Well, I'm in good company with other conservatives who quote him and respect him as a greek scholar like Chuck Swindoll and David Jeremiah. When I quote someone, I don't mean I'm a devoted desciple who agrees with everything. I do have his "Daily Study Bible" though which I think is quite good.

 

[Singer]

GH:

Hi
In line with this topic, I notice your profile said that Jesus found
you related to a bible study. Was wondering what your salvation
experience was concerning that if you'd care to share.

I also attended a bible study after I was saved for two years and
then had an additional relevation. Re: "Tongues" thread.

There are some who discount any kind of an experience.
The salvation experience itself is said to be an experience.

Thanks,
Singer

 

[neal4christ]

Good point. I wonder if any fathers or mothers on this board, are still punishing their children for something they did as a child. If a parent did that, we all know what we would think of such a parent.

Yes, and I wonder how many people torment their children so that they will love them. Do you really think God will just force people to accept and love Him by sticking them in hell until they say uncle?

I don't feel that I have misrepresented you. Yes you say there is a hell, but you say everyone will leave it one day and it will no longer be needed. That contradicts everlasting. People who reject Christ will be in heaven one day, which is not Scriptural. God will force them into heaven one way or another, which I can't find in the Bible. God is the source of sin, which is blasphemy.

Neal

 

[neal4christ]

Christian universalists believe there is a place called hell where those who are not saved in this age suffer and no one will be wicked when they go into heaven. Remember, before you and I were saved, we were numbered among the wicked.

Yes, I remember Ken, I don't have a selective memory as to what I see and understand. Please show evidence for this first statement. I have not seen this anywhere.

Neal

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by neal4christ:
1)Do you really think God will just force people to accept and love Him by sticking them in hell until they say uncle?

2)Yes you say there is a hell, but you say everyone will leave it one day and it will no longer be needed.

1)Don't you believe that God uses the hardships of this age to bring people to repentance and faith?

2)The Bible refers to hell as the second death. The Bible says that the last enemy that Christ will destroy is death. Do't you believe this?

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by neal4christ:
Please show evidence for this first statement. I have not seen this anywhere.

Okay, here are quotes from universalists:

"We do ourselves much injury when we seize upon every Scripture which proclaims the salvation of all men, but carefully avoid all Scripture which speaks of the fearful judgment of the wicked."

"Some will immediately ask me whether I do not believe in hell. My answer is very definite on this point. I most certainly DO BELIEVE in hell, but the hell of the Bible and the hell of human tradition are not the same thing at all. The hell of tradition is hopeless and eternal, while the hell of the Scripture like every judgment of God is corrective, remedial, and restorative."

"Make no mistake! OUR GOD is a consuming fire! He is man's "horse breaker" and He will break you, precious friend of mine, and bring you to the foot of the cross of Jesus no matter how hot He has to build the fire around you! Even if long ages of fiery judgment and tormenting darkness fall upon you, they will last no longer than till the Great Fire of God has melted all arrogance into humility, and all that is self has died in the bloody sweat and all-saving cross of the Christ, which will never give up its redeeming power till sin and sinners have no more a name among the creatures of God."