#3 KJV-Onlyism Commentary

Originally posted by michelle:
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Michelle, none of these sites promote the KJV in any way, shape or fashion. Nor do they teach a single version only doctrine. I believe only one or two of the links worked at all. Truly, you need to study your position more thoroughly.

AVL1984
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Seems many on these boards are having quite a difficult time, comprehending such as simple truth as this, all because they are stuck on a false, man made label that has been slapped onto on the truth. Just a word of advice: Try taking off the label of "king James Bible" and look at what is within, from Genesis 1 - Revelation 22:21. These are the scriptures, and have been and always will be in our English language. If you fight this, you are only fighting the truth, no matter what "label" you decide to slap onto it, in order to AVOID this truth.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

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I see you have started with attacks on my comprehension. I guess if "one could understand they would understand", eh, Michelle? My comprehension is quite well, thank you. It has been for the many years I've been studying the Bible. Your statements about my lack of comprehension is ludicrous at best, and slanderous even more so. You state that I am trying to avoid the truth. Michelle, I believe it is you who is avoiding the truth, the truth that kjVERSION Onlyism has no foundation in scriptures whatsoever.
Again, Michelle, I ask you, which version of the KJV is the perfect, inerrant Word of God? The 1611? The 1762? The 1769? Another update? And which version of the version is the perfect Word of God? The Cambridge Version of the KJV? The Oxford? And, Where was the Word of God before 1611? Were the Bishop's Bible, The Geneva Bible, or any of the other English translations the perfect, inerrant Word of God? These are questions you've avoided time and time again. Why? Because you have no answers, only your own circular reasoning and opinion. They just don't cut it here.

AVL1984

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So, it was a bad choice of words for the KJV translators to use. They could have just as easily used "one horned beast", yet they did not. Strange how with the continued daily evolution of the English language, unicorn doesn't just mean a one horned beast in many's minds.

AVL1984
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Like I said, maybe in the minds of many unbelievers today, but not the minds of BELIEVERS today or past. There is a vast difference. WE do not conform the word of God to fit the world. Rather it is the oppostite: The word of God conforms the world. The only people who are at fault for believing this, are those who rather believe the mythical unicorn, rather than the Biblical unicorn. I believe that this is so, because many have gotten away from the word of God, and only know the mythical. That is their own fault. Not the fault of the scriptures. The scriptures are the infallible and inerrant words of God.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

Again, Michelle, you refer to the infallible and inerrant Words of God, but you won't point out which version of the version or one of it's updates and which of the two types of that particular version are such. Circular reasoning again at best. It doesn't work. You have no proof to back up your claims. Like you said in one of your previous posts, YOUR SAYING SO DOESN'T MAKE IT SO.
AVL1984

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Again, Michelle, I ask you, which version of the KJV is the perfect, inerrant Word of God? The 1611? The 1762? The 1769? Another update? And which version of the version is the perfect Word of God? The Cambridge Version of the KJV? The Oxford? And, Where was the Word of God before 1611? Were the Bishop's Bible, The Geneva Bible, or any of the other English translations the perfect, inerrant Word of God? These are questions you've avoided time and time again. Why? Because you have no answers, only your own circular reasoning and opinion. They just don't cut it here.

AVL1984
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ALL OF THEM. I am not going to explain my reasons for saying this, as I have done so many times previous, as you are very well aware of, and I find your continual asking me a question that I have already answered, an attempt at trying to pull me into circular reasoning and arguments, to again - AVOID THE TRUTH in this issue. The rest of your post is merely your own opinion, and means absolutely nothing to me.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

Originally posted by michelle:
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Again, Michelle, I ask you, which version of the KJV is the perfect, inerrant Word of God? The 1611? The 1762? The 1769? Another update? And which version of the version is the perfect Word of God? The Cambridge Version of the KJV? The Oxford? And, Where was the Word of God before 1611? Were the Bishop's Bible, The Geneva Bible, or any of the other English translations the perfect, inerrant Word of God? These are questions you've avoided time and time again. Why? Because you have no answers, only your own circular reasoning and opinion. They just don't cut it here.

AVL1984
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ALL OF THEM. I am not going to explain my reasons for saying this, as I have done so many times previous, as you are very well aware of, and I find your continual asking me a question that I have already answered, an attempt at trying to pull me into circular reasoning and arguments, to again - AVOID THE TRUTH in this issue. The rest of your post is merely your own opinion, and means absolutely nothing to me.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

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Michelle, please, direct me to the posts where you have stated the above. I can find nowhere that you have done so. Again, you accuse me of avoiding the truth. If all of the other previous version are the Word of God, then that would make the KJV what???? JUST ANOTHER VERSION!!! Even the King James translators realized this and didn't elevate it to the position that KJVO's today do. This is cultic and bibliolatry, and it has no basis in scripture. And believe me, nobody has to "pull you into circular reasoning", you can do that pretty well all by yourself. When you post no proof but your own opinion, it is not proof, Michelle, it is circular reasoning. I would suggest studying these things out before blasting others on what they believe.


AVL1984

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See, you insult people and then cry foul if someone does the same to you. Hypocritical if you ask me. I think he comprehends quite well. At least he's not using the circular cultic reasoning of the Ruckmanism type. Nowhere do your posting show one version onlyism. It's sad you continue to hold to a position which has so clearly been pointed out to be false.

AVL1984
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Jason proved himself to be a hypocrate. His own words show that. I will leave it to the readers to determine who is being a hypocrate, and who is not.

I do not use "circular cultic reasoning", nor am I a ruckmanite - and it is others who lead us into circular reasoning and arguments by the questions they ask, and false claims they make. I don't even know Ruckman. I only know of what others have said about him on these boards. That is the extent of my knowledge of ruckman. My belief that the scriptures are the infallible and inerrent words of God, is in line with other believers today, and in generations past, as I have shown this to you all. My position is based upon FAITH in God Almighty and his power and promises. I also have the Holy Spirit of truth dwelling within me, who leads us to all truth. (John 10,16,17)


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

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Michelle, please, direct me to the posts where you have stated the above. I can find nowhere that you have done so.
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You are playing dumb. Go to the Bible Version Debate forum. You post and read there all the time. You know very well what I believe regarding this, and I am not going to be pulled into this game of circular reasoning and arguments again. If you do not understand this, then I recommend that you go before our Lord Jesus Christ in humble prayer, with a desire to know the truth. The Lord will answer you. Be prepared: You might not like the answer.


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Again, you accuse me of avoiding the truth. If all of the other previous version are the Word of God, then that would make the KJV what???? JUST ANOTHER VERSION!!! Even the King James translators realized this and didn't elevate it to the position that KJVO's today do.
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I could give a hoot what the translators thought. But I will tell you this, they DID believe that the scriptures were the infallible and inerrant words of God. These men acknowledged and loved the words of God, as is evident and obvious in their preface to the reader - unfortunately unlike many of today.


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This is cultic and bibliolatry, and it has no basis in scripture. And believe me, nobody has to "pull you into circular reasoning", you can do that pretty well all by yourself. When you post no proof but your own opinion, it is not proof, Michelle, it is circular reasoning. I would suggest studying these things out before blasting others on what they believe.
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Now who is questioning the salvation of another here? Who is slandering who? I let the readers of these posts determine this. This is a serious accusation against me brother, and it is a false one.


Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

AV1984 writes:
Too bad so many KJVO's can dish out the venom, but cannot take it when KJV's (without the "O") and MV supporters answer. If they can't handle the heat, maybe they should stay out of the kitchen.
End Quote.

I said it before, and I'll say it again. The anti-KJ 'ers on this board are ten times more insulting than any KJOnlyists I have ever met. The scriptures tell us to "speak the truth in love" and "the servant of the Lord must not strive,but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach,patient,in meekness instructing those......."
Yes , we KJO have failed the Lord in this respect and we are ever aware of watching what we say, but many of you here just blindly go on a rampage against KJO and couldn't care less of what the scriptures say about "speaking the truth in love".
We have been labelled as a cult,we have had our words twisted, and been labelled as "uneducated" folk.
There are 2 schools here:
"Thus saith the Lord" and "Yea, Hath God said"?
Which are you?

Michelle says:>>>>Jason proved himself to be a hypocrate. His own words show that. I will leave it to the readers to determine who is being a hypocrate, and who is not.

AVL1984:>>>>>I don't see where Jason has made himself a hypocrite. Because he doesn't agree with you he's a hypocrite??? Oh, brother...

Michelle says:>>>>I do not use "circular cultic reasoning",

AVL1984 says:>>>> I never used those words in this fashion. You are twisting my words, but I find this typical of you.


Michelle says:>>>>nor am I a ruckmanite

AVL1984:>>>>>I did not say you were a Ruckmanite. I said it was on the order of Ruckmanism. And farther down you state you don't know Ruckman. That was never implied, either. Again, you twist words to suit your needs and make yourself look the part of the victim.

Michelle says:>>>> - and it is others who lead us into circular reasoning and arguments by the questions they ask, and false claims they make.

AVL1984:>>>>Nobody can lead one into circular reasoning. It is something that occurs when someone tries to defend their position without any true knowledge of the subject and can only continue to quote what they have heard from their preacher, peers, or others. They have no real answers so they repeat the same things over and over. The problem is that this doesn't make what you're saying so.

Michelle says:>>>I don't even know Ruckman. I only know of what others have said about him on these boards. That is the extent of my knowledge of ruckman.

AVL1984:>>>>Already been addressed above.

Michelle says:>>>My belief that the scriptures are the infallible and inerrent words of God,

AVL1984:>>>>They are the infallible Word of God, in the form of the KJV, NKJV, NIV, NASB, RSV, ASV and others.


Michelle says:>>>>is in line with other believers today, and in generations past, as I have shown this to you all.

AVL1984:>>>> What you have tried to prove is that the KJV translators said that their version of the Word of God was the ONLY VERSION in the English language that was the Preserved Word of God. This is far from true, and their own statements prove that they did not believe this themselves.


Michelle says:>>>>My position is based upon FAITH in God Almighty and his power and promises. I also have the Holy Spirit of truth dwelling within me, who leads us to all truth. (John 10,16,17)

AVL1984:>>>> The position of those who use the MV's is also based upon FAITH in God Almighty and his power and promises. They also have the spririt of truth dwelling within them and he leads them into all truth, also. But, you would have others believe that the Holy Spirit and God are limited to the KJV Only. This is not only false, it has no basis in Scripture or history.


Mlove in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

Michelle, truly, you need to realize that if you promote a KJVO position, you are effectively saying that no other English version, before or after the KJV was the Word of God. The falacy of the KJVO position is obvious, especially to those of us who have at one time or another held that position ourselves. I did for many years until the Lord led me into the truth that it was not only cultic, but divisive and destructive to other believers faith, as well as my own. I will be praying for God to open your eyes.

AVL1984

Originally posted by artbook1611:
AV1984 writes:
Too bad so many KJVO's can dish out the venom, but cannot take it when KJV's (without the "O") and MV supporters answer. If they can't handle the heat, maybe they should stay out of the kitchen.
End Quote.

I said it before, and I'll say it again. The anti-KJ 'ers on this board are ten times more insulting than any KJOnlyists I have ever met. The scriptures tell us to "speak the truth in love" and "the servant of the Lord must not strive,but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach,patient,in meekness instructing those......."
Yes , we KJO have failed the Lord in this respect and we are ever aware of watching what we say, but many of you here just blindly go on a rampage against KJO and couldn't care less of what the scriptures say about "speaking the truth in love".
We have been labelled as a cult,we have had our words twisted, and been labelled as "uneducated" folk.
There are 2 schools here:
"Thus saith the Lord" and "Yea, Hath God said"?
Which are you?

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Have you ever considered how many attacks the MV users have endured over the years without saying much, if anything at all at first? Those who use the MV's have been labelled the same by the KJVO's, and it is only fair that they earnestly contend for the faith, also. You say there are two schools here, and I have to say, I don't buy that in the way you worded it. I say there is a position that denegrates the beliefs of others, questions and tries to destroy the foundation of others beliefs in Christ and their service to him. That side that does this is the KJVO's with their "if you weren't saved using this version of the Bible, or if you're not using this version of the Bible you're liberal, not living for the Lord, etc" is false and divisive to the core, intentionally or not. There is a side which has begun to fight back, and that is the side of the MV's. And justly so.

AVL1984

[ September 24, 2004, 10:48 AM: Message edited by: AVL1984 ]

Originally posted by michelle:
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Michelle, please, direct me to the posts where you have stated the above. I can find nowhere that you have done so.
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You are playing dumb. Go to the Bible Version Debate forum. You post and read there all the time. You know very well what I believe regarding this, and I am not going to be pulled into this game of circular reasoning and arguments again. If you do not understand this, then I recommend that you go before our Lord Jesus Christ in humble prayer, with a desire to know the truth. The Lord will answer you. Be prepared: You might not like the answer.


AVL1984:>>>>Oh yes, I get it...If I would understand, I would understand. Circular reasoning again, Michelle? Get real. You've never posted anything of the sort. You've used circular reasoning and insults on the Bible Versions forum many many times and have been snipped for doing so.


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Again, you accuse me of avoiding the truth. If all of the other previous version are the Word of God, then that would make the KJV what???? JUST ANOTHER VERSION!!! Even the King James translators realized this and didn't elevate it to the position that KJVO's today do.
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I could give a hoot what the translators thought. But I will tell you this, they DID believe that the scriptures were the infallible and inerrant words of God. These men acknowledged and loved the words of God, as is evident and obvious in their preface to the reader - unfortunately unlike many of today.

AVL1984:>>>>You say you don't give a hoot about what the translators thought, but in the Bible Versions forum, you constantly eluded back to their statement. Kind of false testimony here, isn't it michelle? They believed all of the English speaking versions before were correct. They completed their work on another English version because of the commission of King James for ANOTHER English Version which would more readily fit the church of England (a split off from the RCC) and not have such "POPISH INFLUENCE". It's in their own words, Michelle. Get real.


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This is cultic and bibliolatry, and it has no basis in scripture. And believe me, nobody has to "pull you into circular reasoning", you can do that pretty well all by yourself. When you post no proof but your own opinion, it is not proof, Michelle, it is circular reasoning. I would suggest studying these things out before blasting others on what they believe.
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Now who is questioning the salvation of another here? Who is slandering who? I let the readers of these posts determine this. This is a serious accusation against me brother, and it is a false one.

AVL1984:>>>> I have not questioned your salvation in the least. I believe you to be saved. But, I also believe you to be a very misguided young lady. And the proper word for "slander" in writing is "libeled", which I have not done. I have not libeled you. I have stated a fact of KJVOism being a cult. You have twisted my words and tried to play the victim again, and it isn't becoming of you. In fact, its very hypocritical to say the least.


Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

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You have no love in your heart Michelle, or you wouldn't libel so many of your brothers and sisters in Christ. Your posts are not in love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour, but a denegration of other believers. Again, hypocritical to say the least, and very much a misrepresentation of the Lord.

AVL1984

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Michelle says:>>>> - and it is others who lead us into circular reasoning and arguments by the questions they ask, and false claims they make.

AVL1984:>>>>Nobody can lead one into circular reasoning. It is something that occurs when someone tries to defend their position without any true knowledge of the subject and can only continue to quote what they have heard from their preacher, peers, or others. They have no real answers so they repeat the same things over and over. The problem is that this doesn't make what you're saying so.
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Many ask questions that are answered. Many do not like the answers, so they continue to claim that the answers have either not been answered, or that they prove nothing. This is not our fault. It is the fault of others, who continue to ask, even when answered, because they don't like the answers, nor accept those answers. If you continue to ask the same questions, you are going to get the same answers. Our answers are not going to change, yet you all continue to ask the same questions over and over again. This is the reason it seems that what we are saying is circular, when indeed, it is the fault of those who continue to ask the same questions, or continue to make the same false claims. What I say here, is not regurgitating something someone else has said and believes, just because they believe it, or because I am blindly following the teachings of some other men. What I say and believe here is what I BELIEVE and have been SHOWN by my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. It is Jesus Christ who I blindly follow.


Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

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Michelle says:>>>My belief that the scriptures are the infallible and inerrent words of God,

AVL1984:>>>>They are the infallible Word of God, in the form of the KJV, NKJV, NIV, NASB, RSV, ASV and others.
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This has been shown to be false, and is evident against the scriptures themselves, that they indeed are not inerrant and infallible, but have been altered. It is also evident that many today do not believe any one version itself is the infallible and inerrant words of God, but that they must look to different versions to get the full sense of the scriptures (not supported at all with scripture). Why? Because in the modern versions, one cannot get the full sense of the scriptures, because they have been altered. Not so with the KJB, the Holy Bible, for it is INDEED the inerrant and infallible words of God in the English language. We have One God, One Saviour, One Faith, and One Bible.


Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

Originally posted by michelle:
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Michelle says:>>>> - and it is others who lead us into circular reasoning and arguments by the questions they ask, and false claims they make.

AVL1984:>>>>Nobody can lead one into circular reasoning. It is something that occurs when someone tries to defend their position without any true knowledge of the subject and can only continue to quote what they have heard from their preacher, peers, or others. They have no real answers so they repeat the same things over and over. The problem is that this doesn't make what you're saying so.
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Many ask questions that are answered. Many do not like the answers, so they continue to claim that the answers have either not been answered, or that they prove nothing. This is not our fault. It is the fault of others, who continue to ask, even when answered, because they don't like the answers, nor accept those answers. If you continue to ask the same questions, you are going to get the same answers. Our answers are not going to change, yet you all continue to ask the same questions over and over again. This is the reason it seems that what we are saying is circular, when indeed, it is the fault of those who continue to ask the same questions, or continue to make the same false claims. What I say here, is not regurgitating something someone else has said and believes, just because they believe it, or because I am blindly following the teachings of some other men. What I say and believe here is what I BELIEVE and have been SHOWN by my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. It is Jesus Christ who I blindly follow.


Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

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Blindly repeating what others have said, or stating your own opinion and then posting long quotes of scriptures (which by the way can be validated by other versions, too) doesn't constitute answering a question. The reason the questions are asked over and over is because you refuse to answer with proof and not circular reasoning. Having worked with many people in becoming deprogrammed from cults in the 1970's and 1980's, I've seen the same type of tactics used by them...answering with what they truly believe to be answers, but that are not truly answers just programmed responses. I find this quite common in the KJVO camps with many. Some will actually be able to give honest answers with research from many background sources, as incorrect as they may be. Yet others just spit out the same nonsense over and over. This seems to be the tactic you use.

AVL1984

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Michelle says:>>>>is in line with other believers today, and in generations past, as I have shown this to you all.

AVL1984:>>>> What you have tried to prove is that the KJV translators said that their version of the Word of God was the ONLY VERSION in the English language that was the Preserved Word of God. This is far from true, and their own statements prove that they did not believe this themselves.
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I NEVER said any such thing, nor did I try to PROVE any such thing. Like I also said, I could give a hoot what the translators thought, if it is contrary to the truth revealed in the scriptures.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

Originally posted by michelle:
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Michelle says:>>>My belief that the scriptures are the infallible and inerrent words of God,

AVL1984:>>>>They are the infallible Word of God, in the form of the KJV, NKJV, NIV, NASB, RSV, ASV and others.
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This has been shown to be false, and is evident against the scriptures themselves, that they indeed are not inerrant and infallible, but have been altered. It is also evident that many today do not believe any one version itself is the infallible and inerrant words of God, but that they must look to different versions to get the full sense of the scriptures (not supported at all with scripture). Why? Because in the modern versions, one cannot get the full sense of the scriptures, because they have been altered. Not so with the KJB, the Holy Bible, for it is INDEED the inerrant and infallible words of God in the English language. We have One God, One Saviour, One Faith, and One Bible.


Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

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Prove it, Michelle. Don't just spout out accusations. Post your proof. The KJV is far from inerrant, and previous posts in this thread itself prove that. Even the KJV translators did not believe that.

AVL1984

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But, you would have others believe that the Holy Spirit and God are limited to the KJV Only. This is not only false, it has no basis in Scripture or history.
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Again, you need to take the glasses of the false and man made label (KJV) slapped onto the truth (the scriptures), in order to see clearly. Until you do this, you will not be able to see the truth regarding this issue.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

Michelle, if you would learn how to read, you would see, I'VE ALREADY BEEN IN YOUR SHOES. I've been there, done that. You, deary are misled. And to continue trying to talk to you would be like me going out and talking to the brick wall on my house. So, I will leave you with this. I will be praying for you. One day God will open your eyes. I will limit my time on you and your circular reasoning and insults and continuosly accusing people of slapping a label on people, when it is you yourself that does such...Remember "if you would understand, you would understand".

AVL1984

It is Jesus Christ who I blindly follow.

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Did you know that Jesus Christ used a variety of translations of the Old Testament in the quotes we have of His?

Look at the last phrase in Mark 4:12, "they should be forgiven." We have here a direct quote from Christ that is not found in the Old Testament as we have it. The proto-Masoretic Old Testament of Isaiah 6:10 translates, "healed."

The evidence of this change is right there in the KJV. It is not part of a "conspiracy" to "corrupt" the word of God as many claim of differing versions and it is a direct quote from Jesus.

That is just one example. There are many other New Testament quotes that align more with the Septuagint or the Aramaic than the Masoretic. Do you feel Jesus was in error by not staying with the text upon which the KJV translators based their rendering? Or should the KJV translators have changed their translation to match the words of Christ? Or did they, perhaps, recognize that it was not that much of an issue?

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Michelle, truly, you need to realize that if you promote a KJVO position, you are effectively saying that no other English version, before or after the KJV was the Word of God.
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Again, you are avoiding, forgetting, or refusing to acknowledge what I have said concerning this, and are the one attempting to pull me into circular reasoning and arguments, yet again. And at the same time, misrepresenting what I believe, and what the truth in this issue is, in order to try to show my belief is wrong. Someday you will know.


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The falacy of the KJVO position is obvious, especially to those of us who have at one time or another held that position ourselves. I did for many years until the Lord led me into the truth that it was not only cultic, but divisive and destructive to other believers faith, as well as my own. I will be praying for God to open your eyes.
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It seems to me that you have covered your eyes from the truth with the glasses of a false man-made label slapped onto the truth. The Lord has told us to be pleasing to God, not pleasing to men. I fear you would rather please men, than God.


Again, you are insinuating that I have cultic beliefs, which you have not supported whatsover, and to which is not only a false accusation of me and many others, but slanderous as well. If anything, my belief encourages others to have 100% faith in the infallibility and inerrancy of the scriptures. What the mv proponents would rather us believe the opposite and cause many to DOUBT. The only reason for division regarding this issue, is from people like you, who make false accusations and claims against not only the scriptures, but also against fellow believers in Jesus Christ and treat us as enemies. The true division is caused by these mv's and those who condone them and are stubborn to the truth and compromising with obvious alterations that have been done to the very words of God.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle