When are Christians forgiven?

The Bible never teaches that we are in and out of fellowship with God. That is something many of us have been taught but it isn't scriptural. You are either in Christ or you are either not in Christ, there is no in between.

Christ forgave all of our sins on the cross. When you sin, there is nothing magical that happens by confessing it to Christ. If anything it saddens him because you know what, you are already forgiven. It's like you don't believe Him. Instead of sitting here confessing confessing confessing, just get over it and move on and continue to the let the Spirit lead you to grow and not give into temptation next time.

Yes, we are to confess our sins to each other, that is how we deal with each other and how healing begins. But we have to, because we don't know whether or not they have forgiven us until we do.

With the Father, we know our forgiveness is already there.

If we were out of fellowship with God everytime we had "unconfessed" sin in our lives, no one would ever be in fellowship with God. God would never be able to use any of us to do anything.

There are many times I have seen God working in and through me, even before I realized there were things in my life that I needed to get rid of. God still used me knowing I wasn't perfect and He uses me still, knowing I am STILL not perfect.

I tell you, learning the truth of God's grace is a wonderful experience. I don't have to continue focus on confessing and focus on the sin in my life, I now focus on Christ and letting His Spirit work in and through me. It sure is refreshing to focus on the good instead of the bad, and in doing so I am motivated all the more to be pleasing to Him. Praise Him for His wonderful grace!

~Lorelei

 

It's only ever the word of God, for me, and you attempting to twist situations and pretend to be victorious. You should look at the RCC history and many, many flawed doctrines that directly contradict the word of God, and then ask yourself who is lying, and who is wrong.

Carson, the fact that a gun is to my head must historically mean that at one point or another, I confessed Christ. If a gun was to my head, I'm sure I wouldn't deny him at all. I'm quite sure, actually. I take a little more heat every day for my testimony.

I cannot deny him, for I am sealed. Even when Peter denied him, do you think for one minuite that anybody thought it was sincere ? Not me.

Your a gifted man with words, young Carson. You can write way above most people's heads. But you are wrong in so many areas of faith, that it's scary. You have been convinced by others that Baptists are wrong about everything. It's pretty sad.

And we are the ones accused of having an axe to grind......

 

If the RCC claim that simply believing in Jesus will not save anyone and that multitudes
of works and obedience, sacraments, confessions, masses etc. must accompany it in order for salvation to eventually and possibly (maybe) be reached...............

...........then why would a simple mouthed and forced denial of Jesus with a gun to
the head totally obliterate salvation at the drop of a hat ...??

[ January 31, 2003, 12:23 AM: Message edited by: Singer ]

 

So I John 1:9 is a lie and a joke, and really means don't confess your sin?

I am amazed that you say nothing can impede our relationship with God. What of I John 1:7? Doesn't say something about fellowship when we walk in the light? So the opposite would be no fellowship when we walk in the dark. Aren't we supposed to draw nigh to God? Yet can we if we have sin in our life? Does Christ blood automatically cover our sins even if we don't confess them? If that is the case, and we don't have to ask and receive His forgiveness, then you could make a good case for universalism, because no one would need to receive Christ because He has already died for the world.

Yes, He has paid for our sin. But I do not think we are automatically forgiven before we ask for forgiveness and confess our sins. Why else would David say to God for Him to search him and see if there be any wicked way in him? Doesn't it seem David wanted to confess any and all sin to God? Likewise we should ask God to search us and try us. I am not saying we lose our salvation when we sin, but it does draw us away from God, not nigh.

Neal

 

100 % agreement. We want to be close, and David's request was for closeness with God.

Psalms 51:12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.

He asks for God to restore JOY, not SALVATION.

Also, a verse that has been missing from this conversation...

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

[ January 31, 2003, 04:40 AM: Message edited by: Bro. Curtis ]

 

The conditions of fellowship:

"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus christ, his Son cleanseth us from all sin." I John 1:7

Sins confessed, forgiven, and cleansed:

" IF we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." I John 1:9

Advocacy is that work of Jesus Christ for sinning BELIEVERS which He carries on with the Father whereby, because of the eternal efficacy of Christ's sacrifice, He RESTORES them to FELLOWSHIP:

"My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;
And he is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world." I John 2:1-2


Sue

 

Hi Singer,

Your comment, "If the RCC claim that simply believing in Jesus will not save anyone and that multitudes of works and obedience, sacraments, confessions, masses etc. must accompany it in order for salvation to eventually and possibly (maybe) be reached," demonstrates that you have a very warped understanding of how Catholics believe they are saved. If someone wants to be saved right now, all they have to do is put their faith in Jesus Christ (the right Jesus Christ, not the Arian, JW, Christadelphian, or Mormon Christ) and be baptized. That's all they'd have to do, pure and simple.

To show you how warped your view of Catholic soteriology is, let me ask you a similar question so that you understand where I'm coming from:

Singer, If you claim that simple faith will not save anyone and that multitudes of singing in Church and Bible reading, and altar calls, and devotionals, and daily prayer, and fellowship must accompany it in order for salvation to eventually and possibly (maybe) be reached... etc, etc.

then why would a simple mouthed and forced denial of Jesus with a gun to the head totally obliterate salvation at the drop of a hat ...??

Because your understanding of Catholic soteriology is very deficient. If you would like to grow in wisdom and knowledge about the Catholic faith, I encourage you to learn what we really believe, and not some warped, artificial concept that a non-Catholic has made up.

A good place to start is here:

http://www.catholicoutlook.com

God bless,

Carson

 

Again, this verse is not stating that we are out of fellowship with God. It says IF we are in the light then we have fellowship with each other (the body of Christ, the real church) and Christ's blood cleanses us. This is what happens when we are saved, we are cleansed and brought into the body of Christ. That is only IF we walk in the light. What is the alternative to walking in the light?

We do one of two things, we are either in the light (saved and in Christ) or in the dark (lost and not in Christ). As I pointed out John said in the next book that IF we have the truth in in us it is there forever. We don't walk in the light, then in darkness, then in the light, then in darkness. The option is always one or the other. It's all right there in the context.

I ask you to look at the context again. This if is followed by the statement that if we say we don't sin the truth is not in us. Again, this is referring to 2 examples, you are either a sinner saved by grace or you say you don't sin and are lost.

This letter was written to people we were falling into the decpetion of a religious belief called gnosticism (sp?) in which they believed that Christ did not come in the flesh and that we are simply spiritual beings. These verses were to specifically discount one of their teachings that man did not sin. John basically said, if you profess to believe what the gnostics say, you can't believe in Christ. You can't be saved by the blood of Christ if you don't profess to have any sin to be forgiven in the first place.

Even without understanding this fact, it is clear from the context that John isn't talking about some mysterious in and out of fellowship with God that takes place when we sin. It is not in the texts. With John, it was all or nothing.

Can you show me one verse in the New Testament that talks about our fellowship with God being restored?

Hebrews clearly says IF a person falls away it is impossible for them to be restored, because they would be crucifying Christ all over again.

Again, with the Bible it's all or nothing. If you don't believe Christ forgave your sin already, there is no sacrifice left for that sin.

Again, he was speaking of an all or nothing thing. He just said, if you claim to be without sin you make God out to be a liar. He then says he wrote this so they would not sin. Sin how? They were sinning by saying that man had no sin, and calling God a liar. His words were not to condemn them but to share the good news that even though they had sin, Christ had come as a sacrifice to take away that sin! Again in verses 4 and 5 he confirms this is an all or nothing thing.

If you obey his words, to come to Christ and repent, God's love is made what? It is made complete. But if not, the truth is not in him. This is the same truth that John said would be in us forever.

To say this is talking to christians is to ignore the context and purpose of the chapter. This book was written to people professing to be christians but clinging to gnosticsm.

I used to believe as you do. I used to spend many hours on my knees, confessing my sins as was supposedly in the 1 John 1:9 manner. Then I heard this taught a different way, and at first I was reluctant to believe it, but when I studied the scriptures further to see that no where does it teach that we are "In and out of fellowship" with God, I began to test it. Reading it in context really opened my eyes. Reading a verse with a pre-suppositioned belief can cloud your vision, at least it did mine.

So what do I do when I sin now? I realize it and repent of it. Not in a 5 hour prayer session of saying "I am sorry", but in the reailty of the word, turning away from that sin to turn towards walking in the spirit. I don't waste percious time with God focusing on sin he already forgave, it spend it communicating with God and listening to God. I have time to hear Him speak, because I can shut up now! He knows what a wretched person I am and He loves me anyway! HE is ALWAYS there!

Below is a website that explains it rather well. Please don't think I am picking on you, I am merely showing you the truth of this verse as it was revealed in the scriptures. Even us baptists, who claim we don't follow tradition, are hesitant to stop believing what we have been taught, even if it doesn't really line up with all of God's Word. I just challenge you to look as this further, and let God speak to you.

In no way am I professing that we should continue to live in sin, but rather when we do sin, we should realize it, stop it and move forward in our walk with God, letting His spirit lead us. When you realize the beauty of his grace, it motivates you all the more to please Him and let Him work in and through you! Repentance is an action, not a time of retrospection.

http://www.realanswers.net/realaudio/1john.html

~Lorelei

 

Why not? If our fellowship with God is not broken, why worry about it?

As for I John 1:7, a literal translation (Nestle, 21st Ed) is "if but in the light we walk as he is in the light, fellowship we have with each other and the blood of Jesus the Son of him cleanses us from all sin." How are you so sure that it is fellowship with believers and not with God?

And what of the point of I John 1:9? And can we learn anything from the OT? What happened when Israel began to sin? Did they stay in perfect fellowship with God?

Neal

 

Why not? If our fellowship with God is not broken, why worry about it?</font>[/QUOTE]

Because I am IN fellowship with God and that causes me to want to please Him. I am not always successful, but His Spirit is ALWAYS there encouraging me to do so.

I guess I didn't explain that very well. It is speaking to salvation, not to a christian who has been out of fellowship. If I am in the light, then I have fellowship, yes both with God and the body, why? Because I am saved. If I don't have fellowship, I am lost, it's that simple.

We can learn a lot from the OT! What DID happen to an Isrealite when they sinned? How were they restored back to fellowship? By sacrifices! Every time they sinned they had to get another bull, or ram, or whatever animal that sinned required to be forgiven, why? Without blood there is no sacrifice! (Hebrews 9:22)

So what happens then when we sin? How will we ever be brought back?

We have to trust in Christ, who died once for ALL sins. If we don't believe that, there is no sacrifice left. You can't keep crucifying Christ over and over again, the Bible says that is putting him to shame.

~Lorelei

 

Carson:

Thanks but no-thanks on your offer to read more propaganda.
I have no need to as there is no better way than just plain
believing that Jesus rose from the dead...you said so yourself.
In that sense, there is nothing more your church has to offer
mankind as it seems like you agree with the Baptists.

The possibility that a mouthed denial of Jesus could cause loss
of salvation was your approach to start with in your interactions
in page #3. My question was to you and it was not answered..
.only offered back to me.

Name calling is commonplace with the likes of those of you
who must have graduated from the same course in promoting
Catholicism. Phraseology, approach, tactics, technique and
wording are nearly identical on other forums.

Guess I'll just have to always wonder why a simple off-hand
and forced denial would cause eternal damnation when a
simple acceptance of the Lord Jesus wouldn't be enough for
salvation in the first place. Course I believe that it is !!

 

Wasn't this letter written to people who were already Christian?

I believe I stated earlier that Christ has already paid for sin, once for all. I don't disagree with that. What I am saying is that it just doesn't automatically apply to us, and when we sin, it hurts our fellowship. Are you willing to say that everyone in the world is saved? After all, Christ died for sin once FOR ALL.

Neal

 

What are the wages of sin?

~Lorelei

 

Death.

So if something is that serious to God, you don't think that will affect your relationship with Him?

Neal

 

Yes, so much so you are now dead and going to hell.

What do you do now? You aren't just out of fellowship with God, you are dead. How do you apply the blood a second time?

Please show scriptures that say that wages of sin for a saved person is being out of fellowship with God, not death. (Keep in mind Romans 6:23)

Please show me scripture that teaches us how to regain fellowship with God. (Please keep Hebrews 6:4-6 in mind)

Please show me scripture that tells us how to apply the blood of Christ in bits and peices. (Please keep in mind Heb 10:10-14)

If we are out of felllowship with God because of sin, what causes us to be in fellowship with God? How much of your life would you be in fellowship with God if you were ousted each and ever time you sinned?

I challenge you to answer these questions according to scripture.

~Lorelei

 

Hi Singer,

You wrote, "Thanks but no-thanks on your offer to read more propaganda."

You are disinterested in displaying a cordial dose of good will and first taking the task to learn what I believe before you start slapping around a straw man, which is far from the reality of the Catholicism you think you're opposed to.

I can't come to understand why one would rather wallow in ignorance. But, that's your choice, and I respect that. God respects our free will too, even when it leads us into muck.

God bless you,

Carson

 

I seem to know what you believe alright, Carson. It's a tight system you have.
Even stereotyped if you please. All of one mind; right ?

I have to agree with the ignorance charge; so enjoy your muck.

God Bless You too

Singer

 

I believe I posted some questions to you that you have never addressed.

Neal

 

I answered this question before you ever asked it. Re-read my posts and you will see what I had to say.

No matter, have you ever heard of the Roman's Road of salvation? How come the gospel message can be found in a book of the Bible that was written to believers? Do you ever hear the gospel preached? Why do you think that is spoken to a group of believers?

Sometimes we need to be reminded of that message, so that 1) we can be sure we are truly saved according to God's Word 2) so we can properly share the right message with others. Many false gospels were out there, John and the other writers addressed these issues often.

Christ died for the sins of the whole world, but it is only applied when we accept Him as our saviour. However, after that, if you fall away there is no sacrifice left for sins. The blood can only be applied once and no where does the Bible teach otherwise.

Did I miss any other questions?

Now, can you answer the questions raised according to scripture?

~Lorelei

 

So you believe we can lose our salvation?

I will look into your questions when I have time to do it honestly and thoroughly. I don't want to throw up a half thought out answer. I honestly have not thought on this issue too much, it just makes sense that if we have sin in our life it should grieve us and the Holy Spirit would convict us of our sin so that we may confess it.

Neal