Questions for Catholics

Hello Brother Ray,
I have missed you and didn't know you were still fighting the good fight.

Good to see ya.

Bro. Dallas

 

The Harvest;

I found it quite interesting that you had a picture of Hitler on your website which said, "All in favor of gun control raise your right hand." Am I right tp assume you revere him?

I wonder how well you understand the word bigot?

Ever look at Romans 2:1, "Therefore you have no excuse, everyone of you who passes judgment, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things."

 

error

 

I believe you. I was simply responding to Carson's wanting Bible proof for purgatory and then hoping he had found it in 1Cor 3.

Bill Putman took the same approach BTW.

Weak for proving Purgatory? Quite right.

We agree there.

No doubt. Do you care to quote the verse in Romans 3 and/or 4 that you feel is defining/defending/teaching such a thing as Purgatory?

This is one of those places where you and I agree.

So true -- and as Paul says in 1Cor 6 regarding "fornicators..liars" etc "AND such were SOME of you but you were WASHED you were CLEANSED"..

So we agree - all have sinned and ALL have the offer of eternal life "The washing" and "cleansing" by grace through faith.

"He made Him who KNEW no sin to BE SIN in our behalf that WE might become the righteousness OF GOD IN Him". 2Cor 5.

The blood of the cross - washes away our sin.

You can't "make up for murder this week by being REALLY good next week".

And God knows it.

However - as Romans 2 points out "NOT the HEARERS of the Law are just but the DOERS of the LAW WILL be justified".

As Christ said "He who DOES the will of my father will enter the kingdom of heaven". Matt 7.

The "FRUIT" is one of a changed life.

But this good fruit does not "pay for sin" and it does not "atone for sin".

RATHER it SHOWS that the one saved is "A NEW creation".

In Christ,

Bob

 

A.T. Robertson is wrong. (Like I'm really surprised at that? -- duh)

The PROTESTANT Kittle's Theological Dictionary of the New Testament says, regarding this word "paradeisos"

C. The NT

1. The First, Hidden, and Last Paradise. The term paradeisos occurs in the NT only in Lk. 23: 43; 2 Corin. 12:4; Rev. 2:7. It is not used for the garden, bu the paradisical state is implied in Rom. 3:23; 5;12; Mt. 19;18. The concealed paradise is the intermediate abode of the redeemed in Lk. 23: 43 (Emphasis mine). Other NT terms for the intermedaite state are table fellowship with Abraham (lk 16:230, being with the Lord (2 Corin.5:8) or Christ (Phil. 1:23), and the heavenly kingdom (2 Tim. 4:18). In Mk.13:27 the dead will assemble in the heavenly world. The final paradise is mentioned in Rev. 2: 7, for all the victor sayings have an eschatological thrust, and the fruit of the tree of life is a privilege of the last paradise 9cf Jerusalem in 22: 1-2, Jerusalem being the center of the renewed earth.

See? Kittle completely demolishes Robertson's stupid argument.

And I call it stupid because Robertson knows NOTHING about the covenant, how it works, nor how it follows typology.

The thief on his cross did not need baptism because he was under the OLD COVENANT.

DUH!!!

Jesus had not died, so the New Covenant was not in force yet. Circumcision was the means of entrance into the Old Covenant, and from the "faith statement" of the thief, we may easily surmise that he was raised a Jew and familiar with the Messianic promises. Therefore, being Jewish, he would have also been circumcized, and therefore part of the covenantal kingdom, the Jewish nation.

Baptism is the covenantal ritual of entrance for the New Covenant.

Secondly, paradise could not in any way mean heaven for this reason: Jesus had not gone into Heaven to perform YOM KIPPUR for the "new nation" of the New Covenant. Until that rite was performed in Christological fulfillment of the OT type, heaven was still shut and locked to sinners, even the righteous, for all were still under the Old Covenant and the curse of Adam. Only when Jesus finished YOM KIPPUR was paradise able to be unlocked and the souls of the righteous in paradise allowed to go to be with the Father.

Learn the covenant and how it works and you will begin to understand these things.

 

DHK, this is rather typical of you. You toss out these snippets of verses and try to make them string together to prove your point. At the same time, you either refuse or are scaredto answer my posting of Romans 2: 5 - 10, which clearly and unambiguously states that at the Last Judgment, ALL MEN, every single person who has ever life, will be judged by their deeds and either given the reward of eternal life or the curse of eternal death.

Furthermore, your paradigm totally breaks the form and substance of a covenant and how it works in the familial paradigm.

In short, YOU SIR, are the one who is not listening, and neither are you answering IN FULL my posts.

I remain unimpressed.

 

I know you think you just have me absolutely caught with that verse and question, but you are dead wrong.

IF you are right, then suppose you tell me why Jesus would judge ALL MEN AND MANKIND if believers have already been made perfect (and by extension, need no judgment?)

I BE WAITING FER YER ANSWER ON THIS!!


PS. As I said, high priests only offer corporate sacrificesfor the people as a whole. Therefore, you must look at that verse in a corporate manner, not an individual manner.

 

That is correct. But you must know that the antetype MUST follow the type, not break it. Therefore, since the high priest in the Old Covenant made certain offerings in certain ways, Jesus as the New Coveanant Great High Priest must follow that pattern to be the antetype and fulfillment.

And right here is where you are doing exactly that, breaking the OT type by making a NT type who does not follow the typology of the OT. Jesus is the Great High Priest. Now go do your homework and find out exactly what the high priest of Judaism offered, how he did it, where he did it, and why he did it. Then you will understand the proper role of Jesus as the Great High Priest.

You also do not know your Bible very well:

Heb 8:6 ¶ But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Heb 9:15 ¶ And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

WHAT do these verses teach that Jesus mediates? I'm not going to tell you. These verses give you the answer. You give me the proper answer.

The Levitical priesthood. Actually, God said of the Jewish nation that they were all a nation of priests unto Him. All believers are priests. But some are ordained to forgive sins. And one is ordained to offer YOM KIPPUR, the corporate sacrifice for the kingdom nation.

Wrong again. Do you think that God uses words in a willy nilly fashion? Jesus is called not a priest, but our Great High Priest. That puts Him in a special and SEPARATE CLASS to offer a special and separate offering -- YOM KIPPUR. Only the high priest could offer this.

Well, if you are going to be an evangelist, you better start understanding the roots from whence Christianity came. We are the fulfillment in Christ of every Jewish rite and ceremony which pointed to Him. We live in and participate in that fulfillment.

And you better know these things well because you are going to come across Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons who will tie you into a knot with what they know of their skewed theology. Only a proper understanding of Judaism as the covenantal foundation and typology for Jesus the Christ will keep you from their snares.

I don't know because I haven't studied the typology of the scapegoat, but I will tell you this, whatever it is, it has to do with the covenant of God, and therefore the covenant has the answer for that question.

We disagree upon the results because you do not understand covenantalism nor applied typology in the New Covenant. Your answer shows this, for you criss cross things which are not to be crossed to each other.

No, the Church teaches the cleansing of the soul after death because the teaching of "forensic justification" or "imputed righteousness" is, as the Church says "a legal FICTION." It cannot be proven from the Greek word used for "imputed" in Romans 4. In fact, it teaches quite the opposite. Therefore, since there is no such thing as being "saved and having all your sins paid for (in a legal sense) past, present, and future, you must somehow get rid of sins which you carry with you to the next life (assuming you do not recieve the Eucharist at the moment of your death). Thus the need for purgation.

There is something to cleanse them. It is called the Sacraments, specifically confession (1 John 1: 9) and the Eucharist (John 6:53). "Faith alone" does not remove sin. There must be a sacrifice of blood and you must apply that blood. Just the same as the Old Covenant, except that now we have the Blood of the Lamb, not a lamb's corrupt blood.

 

I know you think you just have me absolutely caught with that verse and question, but you are dead wrong.

IF you are right, then suppose you tell me why Jesus would judge ALL MEN AND MANKIND if believers have already been made perfect (and by extension, need no judgment?)

I BE WAITING FER YER ANSWER ON THIS!!


PS. As I said, high priests only offer corporate sacrificesfor the people as a whole. Therefore, you must look at that verse in a corporate manner, not an individual manner. </font>[/QUOTE]It was an individual that gave the item(s) or anima(s) up for sacrifice. Corporate is comprised or several individuals.

So how would you interpret Romans 8:1, "Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."?

So again I ask you the same question, "according to the passage in Hebrews 10 why offer Jesus again and again when it says, "For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified." ?

 

Dear CatholicConvert,

Your last post seems to deny that Jesus fulfilled the Old Covenant, is this what you mean when you say he only filled the office of the High Priest. I see in Christ the fulfillment of every jot and tittle of the Law and yes, I am a hillbilly, but I do know what is meant by 'jot and tittle'.

I cannot accept something which gives Christs partial hearing, but requires man to fulfill the rest of the types. If he fulfilled the O.C. then he fulfilled all in himself.

I tried to shorten this post

Bro. Dallas

 

You remain unimpressed because Scripture does not contradict itself, and yet by refusting the truth of these verses you contradict Scripture.

You remain unimpressed because you stick to your covenantal form of theology, in spite of what all good theologians tell you, and then try to force your theology into Scripture even when it makes no sense at all.

You remain unimpressed when you take such a well-educated scholar as A.T. Robertson, quote from him, and then adamantly declare with no good reason: He is wrong!. What foolishness. He is wrong because he doesn't fit Catholic Theologoy. He is wrong because he is a protestant. He is wrong because he is not a covenantal theologian. Look at your biases. His explanation of the verse from the Greek was right on! And you sat there and just flatly denied; dismissed it completely. And yet you accuse me on not listening and answering posts. You can't even successfully answer your own post.

As for Romans 2, I thought of giving you a quote (which I think I now will do), that exlains this passge very well, and shows the folly of the misinterpretation that you put on this passage time after time. The command of Scripture is to "rightly divide the word of truth," not to butcher it.
DHK

 

Nope. Sorry.

YOU answer my question FIRST!

Why do both the Lord Jesus Christ and Apostle Paul both state that there will be a Day when ALL MEN will be judged, and those who do GOOD will receive eternal life, those who do bad will not? This contradicts your paradigm of once and forever done perfection.

I'm waiting........

 

Indeed scripture cannot contradict itself. That is why I can no longer be Protestant or Anabaptist. Way too many contradictions. I have given you several, but you remain unimpressed. That is because you are Baptistic first and scripturalist secondly.

So Protestant covenantal theologians such as North, Bahnsen, Rushdooney, and a host of others are BAD theologians? C'mon, give me a break!! The word "covenant" appears over 280 times in Scripture, yet you, like Luther, would tear it out of the Bible if you had the power.

He is wrong, and the quote I gave you from the PROTESTANT BIBLE DICTIONARY FROM KITTLE says he's wrong. Just because a man is eloquent does not mean that he is smart or educated. There are numerous very eloquent defenders of Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnessess, and Judaism, and they are all dead wrong also. WHAT!!! Is only Protestantism of YOUR KIND sacred and infallible!!

HAH!!

Well, that too!!

There are only Protestants and Catholics. Anababptistry is just another form of "protesting" against the Church our Lord founded.

Yupper, he is really wrong there!!

Not according to the PROTESTANT Kittle!!! And a whole bunch of other Protestants also. As I showed you by my quote, he takes a very secondary meaning and tries to jam it in the primarly position in those verses. Don't work!!

 

I was thinking about your reply and it suddenly dawned on me where the confusion is. You think that "fulfillment" means "end". That is simply not the case.

Look at Jesus. He is our Great High Priest in Heaven right now. He is the fulfillment of the Old Covenant high priesthood, yet His work and ministry continues. The high priesthood did not come to an end just because Jesus fulfilled it perfectly.

In the same manner, He is the Lamb of God right now. He fulfills the typology of all the sacrificial lambs offered on every Jewish altar. Does that fulfillment mean that sacrifice is ended?

Jesus is our Passover. He fulfills the Passover of the Old Covenant, yet He continues to be our Passover in the Eucharist.

He is the Feast of Tabernacles, for in Him are all the peoples of the world called to the kingdom of God. That is ongoing.

Short for time tonight. More later. Thanks for the short reply.

 

ROMANS 2
2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

You started quoting verses from verse five. Context is everything. Chapters one, two, and three form one entire unit in themselves. I will start from the first verse giving an introduction to set the chapter in its proper context so that we know from the beginning what we are talking about. In the past, Brother Ed, you have taken these verses out of context for your own purposes, to fit your own theology. It doesn’t work that way.

The question that is being asked is: “Are the heathen who have never heard the gospel lost? Chapter one provides an answer to that question.

This sets the foundation Ed. I’ll get more into the meat of the chapter in my next post, when I continue and perhaps finish the chapter. The quote is from William MacDonald’s “Believer’s Bible Commentary, a commentary that is highly recommended by your nemesis John MacArthur. It puts things in its proper perspective. And after the next post we shall see how it utterly shoots down some of your most cherished beliefs.
DHK

 

I was thinking about your reply and it suddenly dawned on me where the confusion is. You think that "fulfillment" means "end". That is simply not the case.

Look at Jesus. He is our Great High Priest in Heaven right now. He is the fulfillment of the Old Covenant high priesthood, yet His work and ministry continues. The high priesthood did not come to an end just because Jesus fulfilled it perfectly.

In the same manner, He is the Lamb of God right now. He fulfills the typology of all the sacrificial lambs offered on every Jewish altar. Does that fulfillment mean that sacrifice is ended?

Jesus is our Passover. He fulfills the Passover of the Old Covenant, yet He continues to be our Passover in the Eucharist.

He is the Feast of Tabernacles, for in Him are all the peoples of the world called to the kingdom of God. That is ongoing.

Short for time tonight. More later. Thanks for the short reply. </font>[/QUOTE]This one is shorter...except for all that you wrote

How does 'fulfillment' equal 'continuous'?

Bro. Dallas

 

Nope. Sorry.

YOU answer my question FIRST!

Why do both the Lord Jesus Christ and Apostle Paul both state that there will be a Day when ALL MEN will be judged, and those who do GOOD will receive eternal life, those who do bad will not? This contradicts your paradigm of once and forever done perfection.

I'm waiting........ </font>[/QUOTE]Well to answer your question according to what the entirety of what the NT teaches is that there is a judgment. For the believers there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus but for the non-believer there is a terrifying judgment.

There is no salvation in works of any kind. Ephesians 2:8,9, Titus 3:5-7 and Romans 4:4-8 are very clear on that.

Eph. 2:8.9. “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Titus 3:5-7, “He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Romans 4:4-8, “Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven, And whose sins have been covered. "Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account."

Look at the contrast in the following passage.

Luke 16:20-31, "And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores, and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man's table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores. "Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom. "And he cried out and said, `Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.' "But Abraham said, `Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony. `And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and [that] none may cross over from there to us.' "And he said, `Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father's house-- for I have five brothers--in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.' "But Abraham said, `They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.' "But he said, `No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!' "But he said to him, `If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.' "

I am not sure what you mean by, “This contradicts your paradigm of once and forever done perfection.”

I am not perfect but Christ is the perfect sacrifice for all time. Hebrews teaches a lot about that.

I am surprised that you wrote NOPE after the quote from the passage in Hebrews 10:11-13, “And every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God, waiting from that time onward until His enemies be made a footstool for His feet. For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.”

I would wonder what you meant when you wrote, “NOPE”?

You mentioned, “Why do both the Lord Jesus Christ and Apostle Paul both state that there will be a Day when ALL MEN will be judged, and those who do GOOD will receive eternal life, those who do bad will not?”

Could you point me to some scripture that teaches the point of good and bad being tied to eternal life?

If you truly believe the statement you made then how many good works would be acceptable to God to attain eternal life?.

The following passage is an example of a man who did good works but his possessions kept him from eternal life.

Luke 18:-27, “A ruler questioned Him, saying, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone. "You know the commandments, `Do not commit adultery, Do not murder, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honor your father and mother.' " And he said, "All these things I have kept from my youth." When Jesus heard this, He said to him, "One thing you still lack; sell all that you possess and distribute it to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me." But when he had heard these things, he became very sad, for he was extremely rich. And Jesus looked at him and said, "How hard it is for those who are wealthy to enter the kingdom of God! "For it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." They who heard it said, "Then who can be saved?" But He said, "The things that are impossible with people are possible with God."

In the book of James it talks about the difference between a genuine saving faith and a creedal faith. A genuine saving faith is followed by the proof of one’s faith being demonstrated by good works. It is not works that save but good works do follow a genuine faith. Later the book states that the demons believe and shudder. Obviously they know who God is and they have an intellectual belief of God but do not put that knowledge into action in serving God. They do not have a genuine saving faith but just an intellectual faith. One who truly knows God put their complete trust in Him. They have more than just an intellectual faith but a real faith. Hebrews 11:1 states what faith is, “Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.” In Hebrews 11:6 it tells of the only way to please God, “ And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.”

 

…continued

from MacDonald’s Believers Bible Commentary

What these notes show:
1. Salvation is entirely by faith, and not by works.
2. Salvation can never be earned.
3. Works have nothing to do with salvation.
4. Replacement theology, the teaching that the church replaces Israel is a wrong theology, for in no way can a Christian be called a Jew.
5. There are two judgments: one for believers and one for unbelievers. What you believe on this fact alone will skew your interpretation of this passage of Scripture.
DHK

 

Did Catholic Convert leave us?

 

Nope....didn't leave ya. I just have a whole lots of other much more important things in my life than this board.

Now, as for your post....

Brother Ed

PS I apologize for being tart with you the other night. I was in a considerably bad humor that evening.