Questions for Catholics

[Frogman]

Hello Brother Ray,
I have missed you and didn't know you were still fighting the good fight.

Good to see ya.

Bro. Dallas

 

[gb93433]

The Harvest;

I found it quite interesting that you had a picture of Hitler on your website which said, "All in favor of gun control raise your right hand." Am I right tp assume you revere him?

I wonder how well you understand the word bigot?

Ever look at Romans 2:1, "Therefore you have no excuse, everyone of you who passes judgment, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things."

 

[Frogman]

error

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by CatholicConvert:
[QB] Bob Ryan --

I don't NEED 1 Corin. 3 to prove purgatory.

I believe you. I was simply responding to Carson's wanting Bible proof for purgatory and then hoping he had found it in 1Cor 3.

Bill Putman took the same approach BTW.

CathConvert said --
In fact, I consider it somewhat of a weak verse

Weak for proving Purgatory? Quite right.

We agree there.

Catholic Convert said --

when compared to the reality of Romans and the Greek in Romans 3 and 4 regarding how God deals with mankind.

The specific word for this is "logizomai" and its primary use is that it is an accounting term. It quite simply means to "count what is there". In other words, when an accountant is counting his money, he only counts WHAT IS THERE!!

And in the same way, when God looks at us, He only counts WHAT IS REALLY THERE.

No doubt. Do you care to quote the verse in Romans 3 and/or 4 that you feel is defining/defending/teaching such a thing as Purgatory?

Cath Convert said --
IF we are righteous by our deeds done in the Holy Spirit with our cooperation, then we are indeed righteous because we have been "doing righteousness". ("He that doeth righteousness is righteous." (1 John 3:7).

This is one of those places where you and I agree.

Catholic Convert --
Therefore, if I am NOT righteous because I have done sin, and I have neither repented nor been absolved of my sin, then somehow that sin has to be removed from me before I can enter the presence of the Father.

So true -- and as Paul says in 1Cor 6 regarding "fornicators..liars" etc "AND such were SOME of you but you were WASHED you were CLEANSED"..

So we agree - all have sinned and ALL have the offer of eternal life "The washing" and "cleansing" by grace through faith.

"He made Him who KNEW no sin to BE SIN in our behalf that WE might become the righteousness OF GOD IN Him". 2Cor 5.

Thus the need for purgation.

The blood of the cross - washes away our sin.

You can't "make up for murder this week by being REALLY good next week".

And God knows it.

However - as Romans 2 points out "NOT the HEARERS of the Law are just but the DOERS of the LAW WILL be justified".

As Christ said "He who DOES the will of my father will enter the kingdom of heaven". Matt 7.

The "FRUIT" is one of a changed life.

But this good fruit does not "pay for sin" and it does not "atone for sin".

RATHER it SHOWS that the one saved is "A NEW creation".

In Christ,

Bob

 

[CatholicConvert]

I am curious how a person who believes one must be baptized to be saved would answer in accord with that theology when they look at the following passage.

Luke 22:39-43, “One of the criminals who were hanged there was hurling abuse at Him, saying, "Are You not the Christ? Save Yourself and us!" But the other answered, and rebuking him said, "Do you not even fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? "And we indeed are suffering justly, for we are receiving what we deserve for our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong." And he was saying, "Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!" And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."

A.T. Roberston writes in Word Pictures in the NT :
Today shalt thou be with me in Paradise (Sêmeron met' emou esêi en tôi paradeisôi). However crude may have been the robber's Messianic ideas Jesus clears the path for him. He promises him immediate and conscious fellowship after death with Christ in Paradise which is a Persian word and is used here not for any supposed intermediate state; but the very bliss of heaven itself. This Persian word was used for an enclosed park or pleasure ground (so Xenophon). The word occurs in two other passages in the N.T. #2Co 12:4; Re 2:7 in both of which the reference is plainly to heaven. Some Jews did use the word for the abode of the pious dead till the resurrection, interpreting "Abraham's bosom" #Lu 16:22 f. in this sense also. But the evidence for such an intermediate state is too weak to warrant belief in it.

A.T. Robertson is wrong. (Like I'm really surprised at that? -- duh)

The PROTESTANT Kittle's Theological Dictionary of the New Testament says, regarding this word "paradeisos"

C. The NT

1. The First, Hidden, and Last Paradise. The term paradeisos occurs in the NT only in Lk. 23: 43; 2 Corin. 12:4; Rev. 2:7. It is not used for the garden, bu the paradisical state is implied in Rom. 3:23; 5;12; Mt. 19;18. The concealed paradise is the intermediate abode of the redeemed in Lk. 23: 43 (Emphasis mine). Other NT terms for the intermedaite state are table fellowship with Abraham (lk 16:230, being with the Lord (2 Corin.5:8) or Christ (Phil. 1:23), and the heavenly kingdom (2 Tim. 4:18). In Mk.13:27 the dead will assemble in the heavenly world. The final paradise is mentioned in Rev. 2: 7, for all the victor sayings have an eschatological thrust, and the fruit of the tree of life is a privilege of the last paradise 9cf Jerusalem in 22: 1-2, Jerusalem being the center of the renewed earth.

See? Kittle completely demolishes Robertson's stupid argument.

And I call it stupid because Robertson knows NOTHING about the covenant, how it works, nor how it follows typology.

The thief on his cross did not need baptism because he was under the OLD COVENANT.

DUH!!!

Jesus had not died, so the New Covenant was not in force yet. Circumcision was the means of entrance into the Old Covenant, and from the "faith statement" of the thief, we may easily surmise that he was raised a Jew and familiar with the Messianic promises. Therefore, being Jewish, he would have also been circumcized, and therefore part of the covenantal kingdom, the Jewish nation.

Baptism is the covenantal ritual of entrance for the New Covenant.

Secondly, paradise could not in any way mean heaven for this reason: Jesus had not gone into Heaven to perform YOM KIPPUR for the "new nation" of the New Covenant. Until that rite was performed in Christological fulfillment of the OT type, heaven was still shut and locked to sinners, even the righteous, for all were still under the Old Covenant and the curse of Adam. Only when Jesus finished YOM KIPPUR was paradise able to be unlocked and the souls of the righteous in paradise allowed to go to be with the Father.

Learn the covenant and how it works and you will begin to understand these things.

 

[CatholicConvert]

Rom.6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
THE GIFT OF GOD IS ETERNAL LIFE.

SALVATION = ETERNAL LIFE

DHK, this is rather typical of you. You toss out these snippets of verses and try to make them string together to prove your point. At the same time, you either refuse or are scaredto answer my posting of Romans 2: 5 - 10, which clearly and unambiguously states that at the Last Judgment, ALL MEN, every single person who has ever life, will be judged by their deeds and either given the reward of eternal life or the curse of eternal death.

Furthermore, your paradigm totally breaks the form and substance of a covenant and how it works in the familial paradigm.

In short, YOU SIR, are the one who is not listening, and neither are you answering IN FULL my posts.

I remain unimpressed.

 

[CatholicConvert]

Heb 10:11-14, "And every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God, waiting from that time onward until His enemies be made a footstool for His feet. For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.

According to the passage in Hebrews 10 why offer Jesus again and again when it says, "For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified." ?

I know you think you just have me absolutely caught with that verse and question, but you are dead wrong.

IF you are right, then suppose you tell me why Jesus would judge ALL MEN AND MANKIND if believers have already been made perfect (and by extension, need no judgment?)

I BE WAITING FER YER ANSWER ON THIS!!


PS. As I said, high priests only offer corporate sacrificesfor the people as a whole. Therefore, you must look at that verse in a corporate manner, not an individual manner.

 

[CatholicConvert]

I also am not a Jew. This old covenant and all types the preisthood represented are now fulfilled in Christ the Lamb of God.

That is correct. But you must know that the antetype MUST follow the type, not break it. Therefore, since the high priest in the Old Covenant made certain offerings in certain ways, Jesus as the New Coveanant Great High Priest must follow that pattern to be the antetype and fulfillment.

He alone is sufficient for salvation, where ever he may call any one of His elect. This is why Paul says the old has passed away. If I still require an earthly priesthood manifested then the sacrifice of the Son of God was not sufficient. If I require a priesthood yet to intercede, then there is not one mediator between God and man.

And right here is where you are doing exactly that, breaking the OT type by making a NT type who does not follow the typology of the OT. Jesus is the Great High Priest. Now go do your homework and find out exactly what the high priest of Judaism offered, how he did it, where he did it, and why he did it. Then you will understand the proper role of Jesus as the Great High Priest.

The Bible explicitly states there is one mediator. This one mediator is the Son of God. He does not require the assistance of any man including myself to intercede on behalf of his people both corporately and individually.

You also do not know your Bible very well:

Heb 8:6 ¶ But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Heb 9:15 ¶ And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

WHAT do these verses teach that Jesus mediates? I'm not going to tell you. These verses give you the answer. You give me the proper answer.

Who offered the peace offerings and other various offerings of individuals? I am asking because I don't know and I always thought it was the High Priest.

The Levitical priesthood. Actually, God said of the Jewish nation that they were all a nation of priests unto Him. All believers are priests. But some are ordained to forgive sins. And one is ordained to offer YOM KIPPUR, the corporate sacrifice for the kingdom nation.

Regardless, the old has passed away and Christ fulfills the entire function of every typical preistly duty the Temple involved.

Wrong again. Do you think that God uses words in a willy nilly fashion? Jesus is called not a priest, but our Great High Priest. That puts Him in a special and SEPARATE CLASS to offer a special and separate offering -- YOM KIPPUR. Only the high priest could offer this.

I am a hill billy, Jewish words don't impress me much.

Well, if you are going to be an evangelist, you better start understanding the roots from whence Christianity came. We are the fulfillment in Christ of every Jewish rite and ceremony which pointed to Him. We live in and participate in that fulfillment.

And you better know these things well because you are going to come across Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons who will tie you into a knot with what they know of their skewed theology. Only a proper understanding of Judaism as the covenantal foundation and typology for Jesus the Christ will keep you from their snares.

Where in the Catholic heiarchy is the scapegoat? How is this office fullfilled in your continuation of the OT types?

I don't know because I haven't studied the typology of the scapegoat, but I will tell you this, whatever it is, it has to do with the covenant of God, and therefore the covenant has the answer for that question.

The best I can tell from the above I don't think we disagree with this. But we do seem to disagree in the result of this. Remember when Paul said the old is now dead meats etc. Now all things are fulfilled in Christ. He most certainly is the lamb of God, he is also the fulfillment of all other types and shadows in the OT system.

We disagree upon the results because you do not understand covenantalism nor applied typology in the New Covenant. Your answer shows this, for you criss cross things which are not to be crossed to each other.

So this is why you have developed the doctrine of purgatory.

No, the Church teaches the cleansing of the soul after death because the teaching of "forensic justification" or "imputed righteousness" is, as the Church says "a legal FICTION." It cannot be proven from the Greek word used for "imputed" in Romans 4. In fact, it teaches quite the opposite. Therefore, since there is no such thing as being "saved and having all your sins paid for (in a legal sense) past, present, and future, you must somehow get rid of sins which you carry with you to the next life (assuming you do not recieve the Eucharist at the moment of your death). Thus the need for purgation.

Christ loved the church and gave his blood for it, but this is not sufficient to carry any members [who are believers scripturally speaking] into heaven, because of the weakness of the flesh men will sin, therefore there must be something to cleanse them after baptism thus you have purgatory.

There is something to cleanse them. It is called the Sacraments, specifically confession (1 John 1: 9) and the Eucharist (John 6:53). "Faith alone" does not remove sin. There must be a sacrifice of blood and you must apply that blood. Just the same as the Old Covenant, except that now we have the Blood of the Lamb, not a lamb's corrupt blood.

The Bible says the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin.[/quote

Indeed. What that verse DOES NOT SAY is this "...and the blood of His Son, Jesus Christ, cleanses us from all sins once, forever, and eternally..." THAT, my friend, is the Protestant interpretation, and it does not wash with the rest of Scripture. If what you are saying is true, then there is no need for the Judgment which all men will undergo according to Romans 2: 5 - 10 to see if they receive eternal life.

(And Ray --ALL means ALL -- not just sinners as you erroneously suggest in your response to me.)

It doesn't say there is a sacrifice made that has need of a separate cleansing.

No, there is a sacrifice made which must be applied whenever we sin against God. If we refuse to do that we stay dirty. If we die dirty, we don't get into heaven until we are cleansed. Very simply really.

You know he was a Baptist don't ya?

Ahhhhhhh.......no. Last I looked, he was a Jew. Remember, the Christian religion is nothing more than fulfilled Judaism. The Early Church did not think of itself as some sort of separate entity. We see that because we see the apostles still going into the temple to worship.

Where is the indication of a need for any mediator other than the ONE the Bible names?

Remember when Jesus gave the apostles the authority to forgive sins? Seems that Jesus meant that they both hear confessions and pronounce authoratively forgiveness of the same.

We will discuss church truth in another post. This one is long enough.

Way too long. We need to shorten our discussions.

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by CatholicConvert:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Heb 10:11-14, "And every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God, waiting from that time onward until His enemies be made a footstool for His feet. For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.

According to the passage in Hebrews 10 why offer Jesus again and again when it says, "For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified." ?

I know you think you just have me absolutely caught with that verse and question, but you are dead wrong.

IF you are right, then suppose you tell me why Jesus would judge ALL MEN AND MANKIND if believers have already been made perfect (and by extension, need no judgment?)

I BE WAITING FER YER ANSWER ON THIS!!


PS. As I said, high priests only offer corporate sacrificesfor the people as a whole. Therefore, you must look at that verse in a corporate manner, not an individual manner. </font>[/QUOTE]It was an individual that gave the item(s) or anima(s) up for sacrifice. Corporate is comprised or several individuals.

So how would you interpret Romans 8:1, "Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."?

So again I ask you the same question, "according to the passage in Hebrews 10 why offer Jesus again and again when it says, "For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified." ?

 

[Frogman]

Dear CatholicConvert,

Your last post seems to deny that Jesus fulfilled the Old Covenant, is this what you mean when you say he only filled the office of the High Priest. I see in Christ the fulfillment of every jot and tittle of the Law and yes, I am a hillbilly, but I do know what is meant by 'jot and tittle'.

I cannot accept something which gives Christs partial hearing, but requires man to fulfill the rest of the types. If he fulfilled the O.C. then he fulfilled all in himself.

I tried to shorten this post

Bro. Dallas

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by CatholicConvert:
Furthermore, your paradigm totally breaks the form and substance of a covenant and how it works in the familial paradigm.

In short, YOU SIR, are the one who is not listening, and neither are you answering IN FULL my posts.

I remain unimpressed.

You remain unimpressed because Scripture does not contradict itself, and yet by refusting the truth of these verses you contradict Scripture.

You remain unimpressed because you stick to your covenantal form of theology, in spite of what all good theologians tell you, and then try to force your theology into Scripture even when it makes no sense at all.

You remain unimpressed when you take such a well-educated scholar as A.T. Robertson, quote from him, and then adamantly declare with no good reason: He is wrong!. What foolishness. He is wrong because he doesn't fit Catholic Theologoy. He is wrong because he is a protestant. He is wrong because he is not a covenantal theologian. Look at your biases. His explanation of the verse from the Greek was right on! And you sat there and just flatly denied; dismissed it completely. And yet you accuse me on not listening and answering posts. You can't even successfully answer your own post.

As for Romans 2, I thought of giving you a quote (which I think I now will do), that exlains this passge very well, and shows the folly of the misinterpretation that you put on this passage time after time. The command of Scripture is to "rightly divide the word of truth," not to butcher it.
DHK

 

[CatholicConvert]

It was an individual that gave the item(s) or anima(s) up for sacrifice. Corporate is comprised or several individuals.

So how would you interpret Romans 8:1, "Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."?

So again I ask you the same question, "according to the passage in Hebrews 10 why offer Jesus again and again when it says, "For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified." ?

Nope. Sorry.

YOU answer my question FIRST!

Why do both the Lord Jesus Christ and Apostle Paul both state that there will be a Day when ALL MEN will be judged, and those who do GOOD will receive eternal life, those who do bad will not? This contradicts your paradigm of once and forever done perfection.

I'm waiting........

 

[CatholicConvert]

You remain unimpressed because Scripture does not contradict itself, and yet by refusting the truth of these verses you contradict Scripture.

Indeed scripture cannot contradict itself. That is why I can no longer be Protestant or Anabaptist. Way too many contradictions. I have given you several, but you remain unimpressed. That is because you are Baptistic first and scripturalist secondly.

You remain unimpressed because you stick to your covenantal form of theology, in spite of what all good theologians tell you, and then try to force your theology into Scripture even when it makes no sense at all.

So Protestant covenantal theologians such as North, Bahnsen, Rushdooney, and a host of others are BAD theologians? C'mon, give me a break!! The word "covenant" appears over 280 times in Scripture, yet you, like Luther, would tear it out of the Bible if you had the power.

You remain unimpressed when you take such a well-educated scholar as A.T. Robertson, quote from him, and then adamantly declare with no good reason: He is wrong!. What foolishness.

He is wrong, and the quote I gave you from the PROTESTANT BIBLE DICTIONARY FROM KITTLE says he's wrong. Just because a man is eloquent does not mean that he is smart or educated. There are numerous very eloquent defenders of Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnessess, and Judaism, and they are all dead wrong also. WHAT!!! Is only Protestantism of YOUR KIND sacred and infallible!!

HAH!!

He is wrong because he doesn't fit Catholic Theologoy.

Well, that too!!

He is wrong because he is a protestant.

There are only Protestants and Catholics. Anababptistry is just another form of "protesting" against the Church our Lord founded.

He is wrong because he is not a covenantal theologian.

Yupper, he is really wrong there!!

Look at your biases. His explanation of the verse from the Greek was right on!

Not according to the PROTESTANT Kittle!!! And a whole bunch of other Protestants also. As I showed you by my quote, he takes a very secondary meaning and tries to jam it in the primarly position in those verses. Don't work!!

And you sat there and just flatly denied; dismissed it completely. And yet you accuse me on not listening and answering posts. You can't even successfully answer your own post.[/quote

I leave this up to others. DID I or DID I NOT give a response to this man?

As for Romans 2, I thought of giving you a quote (which I think I now will do), that exlains this passge very well, and shows the folly of the misinterpretation that you put on this passage time after time. The command of Scripture is to "rightly divide the word of truth," not to butcher it.

So in other words, when I don't agree with your torturing and ignoring clear Scripture, "I" am the one butchering it?

Hoooooboy!!!

 

[CatholicConvert]

Your last post seems to deny that Jesus fulfilled the Old Covenant, is this what you mean when you say he only filled the office of the High Priest. I see in Christ the fulfillment of every jot and tittle of the Law and yes, I am a hillbilly, but I do know what is meant by 'jot and tittle'.

I was thinking about your reply and it suddenly dawned on me where the confusion is. You think that "fulfillment" means "end". That is simply not the case.

Look at Jesus. He is our Great High Priest in Heaven right now. He is the fulfillment of the Old Covenant high priesthood, yet His work and ministry continues. The high priesthood did not come to an end just because Jesus fulfilled it perfectly.

In the same manner, He is the Lamb of God right now. He fulfills the typology of all the sacrificial lambs offered on every Jewish altar. Does that fulfillment mean that sacrifice is ended?

Jesus is our Passover. He fulfills the Passover of the Old Covenant, yet He continues to be our Passover in the Eucharist.

He is the Feast of Tabernacles, for in Him are all the peoples of the world called to the kingdom of God. That is ongoing.

Short for time tonight. More later. Thanks for the short reply.

 

[DHK]

ROMANS 2
2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

You started quoting verses from verse five. Context is everything. Chapters one, two, and three form one entire unit in themselves. I will start from the first verse giving an introduction to set the chapter in its proper context so that we know from the beginning what we are talking about. In the past, Brother Ed, you have taken these verses out of context for your own purposes, to fit your own theology. It doesn’t work that way.

The question that is being asked is: “Are the heathen who have never heard the gospel lost? Chapter one provides an answer to that question.

The condemnation of the heathen is that they did not live up to the light which God gave them in creation. Instead they became idolaters, and as a result abandoned themselves to lives of depravity and vileness.
But suppose an individual heathen does live up to the light God gives him. Suppose he burns his idols and seeks the true God. What then?
Some believe that if a pagan lives up to the light of God in creation, God will send him the gospel light. Cornelius is cited s an example. He sought God. His prayers and alms came up as a memorial before God. Then God sent Peter to tell him how to be saved (Acts 11:14). (This is what I personally believe—DHK).

Paul has shown that the pagans are lost and need the gospel. Now he turns to a second class of people in chapter two, whose exact identity is somewhat in dispute. We believe that the apostle is talking here to self-righteous moralists, whether Jews or Gentiles. The first verse shows that they are self-righteous moralists by the way they condemn the behaviour of others (yet commit the same sins themselves). Verses 9,10,12,14, and 15 show that Paul is speaking to both Jews and Gentiles. So the question before the court is: Are the self-righteous moralists, whether Jews or Gentiles, also lost? And the answer, as we shall see, is, “Yes. They are lost too!”

2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
This second class consists of those who look down their noses at the heathen, considering themselves more civilized, educated, and refined. They condemn the pagan for their gross behaviour, yet are equally guilty themselves though perhaps in a more sophisticated way. Fallen man can see faults in others more readily than in himself. Things hideous and repulsive in the lives of others seem quite respectable in his own. But the fact that he can judge sins in others shows that he knows the difference between right and wrong. If he knows that it is wrong for someone to steal his wife, then he knows that it is wrong for him to steal someone else’s wife. Therefore, when someone commits the very sins he condemns in others, he leaves himself without excuse.
The sins of cultured people are essentially the same as those of the heathen. Although a moralist may argue that he has not committed every sin in the book, he should remember the following facts:
1. He is capable of committing them all.
2. By breaking one commandment, he is guilty of all (James 2:10).
3. He has committed sins of thought which he may never have committed in actual deed, and these are forbidden by the word. Jesus taught that the lustful look, for instance, is tantamount to adultery (Mat.5:28).

2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
What the smug moralist needs is a lesson on the judgement of God The apostle proceeds to give that lesson in verses 2-16. The first point is that the judgement of God is according to truth. It is not based on incomplete, inaccurate, or circumstantial evidence. Rather, it is based on the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
Secondly, the judgement of God is inescapable on those who condemn others for the very sins they practice themselves. Their capacity to judge others does not absolve them from guilt. In fact, it increases their own condemnation.
The judgment of God is inescapable unless we repent and are forgiven.

4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
Next we learn that the judgement of God is sometimes delayed. This delay is an evidence of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering. His goodness means that He is kindly disposed to sinners, though not to their sins. His forbearance describes His holding back punishment on man’s wickedness and rebellion. His longsuffering is His amazing self-restraint in spite of man’s ceaseless provocation.
The goodness of God, as seen in His providence, protection, and preservation, is aimed at leading men to repentance. He is “not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance” (2Pet.3:9).
Repentance means an about-face. Turning one’s back on sin and heading in the opposite direction. “It is a change of mind which produces a change of attitude, and results in a change of action.” (Gibbs). It signifies a man’s taking sides with God against himself and his sins. It is more than an intellectual assent to the fact of one’s sins: it involves the conscience too, as John Newton wrote: “My conscience felt and owned my guilt.”

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
The fourth thing we learn about the judgement of God is that it is graduated according to the accumulation of guilt. Paul pictures hardened and unrepentant sinners treasuring up judgement forthemselves, as if they were building up a fortune of gold and silver. But what a fortune that will be in the day when God’s wrath is finally revealed at the judgement of the Great White Throne (Rev. 20:11-15)! In that day the judgement of God will be seen to be absolutely righteous, without prejudice or injustice of any kind.

This sets the foundation Ed. I’ll get more into the meat of the chapter in my next post, when I continue and perhaps finish the chapter. The quote is from William MacDonald’s “Believer’s Bible Commentary, a commentary that is highly recommended by your nemesis John MacArthur. It puts things in its proper perspective. And after the next post we shall see how it utterly shoots down some of your most cherished beliefs.
DHK

 

[Frogman]

Originally posted by CatholicConvert:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Your last post seems to deny that Jesus fulfilled the Old Covenant, is this what you mean when you say he only filled the office of the High Priest. I see in Christ the fulfillment of every jot and tittle of the Law and yes, I am a hillbilly, but I do know what is meant by 'jot and tittle'.

I was thinking about your reply and it suddenly dawned on me where the confusion is. You think that "fulfillment" means "end". That is simply not the case.

Look at Jesus. He is our Great High Priest in Heaven right now. He is the fulfillment of the Old Covenant high priesthood, yet His work and ministry continues. The high priesthood did not come to an end just because Jesus fulfilled it perfectly.

In the same manner, He is the Lamb of God right now. He fulfills the typology of all the sacrificial lambs offered on every Jewish altar. Does that fulfillment mean that sacrifice is ended?

Jesus is our Passover. He fulfills the Passover of the Old Covenant, yet He continues to be our Passover in the Eucharist.

He is the Feast of Tabernacles, for in Him are all the peoples of the world called to the kingdom of God. That is ongoing.

Short for time tonight. More later. Thanks for the short reply. </font>[/QUOTE]This one is shorter...except for all that you wrote

How does 'fulfillment' equal 'continuous'?

Bro. Dallas

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by CatholicConvert:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />It was an individual that gave the item(s) or anima(s) up for sacrifice. Corporate is comprised or several individuals.

So how would you interpret Romans 8:1, "Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."?

So again I ask you the same question, "according to the passage in Hebrews 10 why offer Jesus again and again when it says, "For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified." ?

Nope. Sorry.

YOU answer my question FIRST!

Why do both the Lord Jesus Christ and Apostle Paul both state that there will be a Day when ALL MEN will be judged, and those who do GOOD will receive eternal life, those who do bad will not? This contradicts your paradigm of once and forever done perfection.

I'm waiting........ </font>[/QUOTE]Well to answer your question according to what the entirety of what the NT teaches is that there is a judgment. For the believers there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus but for the non-believer there is a terrifying judgment.

There is no salvation in works of any kind. Ephesians 2:8,9, Titus 3:5-7 and Romans 4:4-8 are very clear on that.

Eph. 2:8.9. “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Titus 3:5-7, “He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Romans 4:4-8, “Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven, And whose sins have been covered. "Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account."

Look at the contrast in the following passage.

Luke 16:20-31, "And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores, and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man's table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores. "Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom. "And he cried out and said, `Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.' "But Abraham said, `Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony. `And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and [that] none may cross over from there to us.' "And he said, `Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father's house-- for I have five brothers--in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.' "But Abraham said, `They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.' "But he said, `No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!' "But he said to him, `If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.' "

I am not sure what you mean by, “This contradicts your paradigm of once and forever done perfection.”

I am not perfect but Christ is the perfect sacrifice for all time. Hebrews teaches a lot about that.

I am surprised that you wrote NOPE after the quote from the passage in Hebrews 10:11-13, “And every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God, waiting from that time onward until His enemies be made a footstool for His feet. For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.”

I would wonder what you meant when you wrote, “NOPE”?

You mentioned, “Why do both the Lord Jesus Christ and Apostle Paul both state that there will be a Day when ALL MEN will be judged, and those who do GOOD will receive eternal life, those who do bad will not?”

Could you point me to some scripture that teaches the point of good and bad being tied to eternal life?

If you truly believe the statement you made then how many good works would be acceptable to God to attain eternal life?.

The following passage is an example of a man who did good works but his possessions kept him from eternal life.

Luke 18:-27, “A ruler questioned Him, saying, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone. "You know the commandments, `Do not commit adultery, Do not murder, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honor your father and mother.' " And he said, "All these things I have kept from my youth." When Jesus heard this, He said to him, "One thing you still lack; sell all that you possess and distribute it to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me." But when he had heard these things, he became very sad, for he was extremely rich. And Jesus looked at him and said, "How hard it is for those who are wealthy to enter the kingdom of God! "For it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." They who heard it said, "Then who can be saved?" But He said, "The things that are impossible with people are possible with God."

In the book of James it talks about the difference between a genuine saving faith and a creedal faith. A genuine saving faith is followed by the proof of one’s faith being demonstrated by good works. It is not works that save but good works do follow a genuine faith. Later the book states that the demons believe and shudder. Obviously they know who God is and they have an intellectual belief of God but do not put that knowledge into action in serving God. They do not have a genuine saving faith but just an intellectual faith. One who truly knows God put their complete trust in Him. They have more than just an intellectual faith but a real faith. Hebrews 11:1 states what faith is, “Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.” In Hebrews 11:6 it tells of the only way to please God, “ And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.”

 

[DHK]

…continued

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
In the next five verses Paul reminds us that the judgement of God will be according to one’s deeds. A man may boast of great personal goodness. He may rely heavily on his racially or national origin. He may plead the fact that there were men of God in his ancestry. But he will be judged by his own conduct, and not by any of these other things. His works will be the determining factor.
If we took verses 6-11 by themselves, it would be easy to conclude that they teach salvation by works. They seem to say that those who do good works will thereby earn eternal life.
But it should be clear that the passage cannot mean that, because then it would flatly contradict the consistent testimony of the rest of Scripture to the effect that salvation is by faith apart from works. Chafer point out that about 150 passages in the New Testament condition salvation solely on faith or believing. No one passage, when rightly understood, can contradict such overwhelming testimony.
How then are we to understand this passage? First we must understand that good works do not begin until a person has been born again. When the people asked Jesus, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?” He replied, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent” (John 6:28,29). So the first good work that anyone can do is to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and we must constantly remember that faith is not a meritorious work by which a person earns salvation. So if the unsaved are judged by their works, they will have nothing of value to present as evidence. All their supposed righteousness will be seen as filthy rags (Isa.64:6). Their condemning sin will be that they have not believed on Jesus as Lord (John 3:18). Beyond that, their works will determine the degree of their punishment (Luke 12:47,48).
If believers are judged according to their works, what will be the outcome? Certainly they cannot present any good works by which they might earn or deserve salvation. All their works before salvation were sinful. But the blood of Christ has wiped out the past. Now God Himself cannot find any charge against them for which to sentence them to hell. Once they are saved, they begin to practice good works—not necessarily good works in the world’s eyes, but good works as God sees them. Their good works are the result of salvation, not the meritorious cause. At the Judgement Seat of Christ, their works will be reviewed and they will be rewarded for all faithful service.
But we must constantly remember that this passage does not deal with believers—only with the ungodly.

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
In explaining that judgment will be according to works, Paul says that God will render eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality. As already explained, this does Not mean that these people are saved by patient continuance in doing good. That would be another gospel. No one would naturally live that kind of life, and no one could live it without divine power. Anyone who really fits this description has already been saved by grace through faith. The fat that he seeks for glory, honor, and immortality shows that he has already been born again. The whole tenor of his life shows that he has been converted.
He seeks for the glory of heaven; the honor that comes only from God (John 5:44); the immortality that characterizes the resurrection body (1Cor.15:53,54); the heavenly inheritance, which is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading (1Pet.1:4).
God will award eternal life to all who manifest this evidence of a conversion experience. Eternal life is spoken of in several ways in the New Testament. It is a present possession which we receive the moment we are converted (John 5:24). It is a future possession which will be ours when we receive our glorified bodies (here and in (Rom.6:22). Although it is a gift received by faith, it is sometimes associated with rewards for life of faithfulness (Mark 10:30). All believers will have eternal life, but some will have a greater capacity for enjoying it than others. It means more than endless existence; it is a quality of life; the more abundant life which the Saviour promised in John 10:10. It is the very life or Christ Himself (Col. 1:27).

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but rather obey unrighteousness, will be awarded indignation and wrath. They do not obey the truth, they have never answered the gospel call. Rather, they have chosen to obey unrighteousness as their manner. Their lives are characterized by strife, wrangling, and disobedience—sure proof that they were never saved.

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
Now the apostle repeats God’s verdict concerning the two kinds of workers and works, except that this time He does it in inverse order.
The verdict will be tribulation and anguish to everyone who do evil. Here again we must stress that these evil works betray an evil heart of unbelief. The works are the outward expression of a person’s attitude toward the Lord.
The expression of the Jew first, and also of the Greek shows that the judgement of God will be according to privilege or light received. The Jews were first in privilege as God’s earthly chosen people; therefore, they will be first in responsibility. This aspect of God’s judgment will be developed further in verses 12-16.

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
The verdict will be glory, honor, and peace to everyone, Jew or Gentile, who works what is good. And let us not forget that no one can work good, as far as God is concerned, unless he has first placed his faith and trust in the Lord Jesus Christ.
The expression to the Jew first, and also to the Greek cannot indicate favouritism, because the next verse points out that God’s judgement is impartial. So the expression must indicate the historical order in which the gospel went out, as in 1:16. It was proclaimed first to the Jews, and the first believers were Jews.

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
Another truth concerning the judgement of God is that it is without respect of persons. In human courts of law, preference is shown to the good-looking, wealthy, and influential; but God is strictly impartial. No considerations of race, place, or face will ever influence Him.

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
As mentioned above, verses 12-16 expand the point that the judgement of God will be according to the measure of light received. Two classes are in view: those who do not have the law (the Gentiles) and those who are under the law (the Jews). This includes everyone except those who are in the church of God (see 1Cor.10:32, where the human race is divided into these three classes).
Those who have sinned without law will also perish without law. It does not say “will be judged without law” but will also perish without law. They will be judged according to whatever revelation the Lord gave them, and, failing to live up to that revelation, they will perish.
Those who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law, and if they have not obeyed it, they too will perish. The law demands total obedience.

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Mere possession of the law is not enough. The law demands perfect and continuous obedience. No one is accounted righteous simply because he knows what the law says. The only conceivable way of obtaining justification under the law would be to keep it in its entirety. But since all men are sinners, it is impossible for them to do this. So this verse is really setting forth an ideal condition rather than something that is capable if human attainment.
The New Testament teaches emphatically that it is impossible for man to be justified by law-keeping (see Acts 13:39; Rom.3:20; Gal.2:16,21; 3:11). It was never God’s intention that anyone be saved by the law. Even if a person could keep it perfectly from this day forward, he still would not be justified, because God requires that which is past. So when verse 13 says that doers of the law will be justified, we must understand it as meaning that the law demands obedience, and if anyone could produce perfect obedience from the day he was born, he would be justified. But the cold, hard fact is that no one can produce this.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Verses 14 and 15 are a parenthesis, looking back to verse 12a, where we learned that Gentiles who sin without the law shall perish without the law. Now Paul explains that although the law was not given to the Gentiles, yet they have an innate knowledge of right and wrong. They know instinctively that it is wrong to lie, steal, commit adultery, and murder. The only commandment they would not know intuitively is the one concerning the Sabbath; that one is more ceremonial than moral.
So what it boils down to is that the Gentiles, who do not have the law,…are a law to themselves. They form their own code of right and wrong behaviour from their moral instincts.

15 Which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
They show the work of the law written in their hearts. It is not the law itself which is written in their hearts, but the work of the law. The work which the law was designed to do in the lives of the Israelites is seen in some measure in the lives of Gentiles. The fact that they know that it is right to respect their parents, for example, shows the work of the law written in their hearts. They also know that certain acts are basically wrong. Their conscience, serving as a monitor, confirms this instinctive knowledge. And their thoughts are constantly deciding the rightness or wrongness of their actions, accusing or excusing, forbidding or allowing.

16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
This verse is a continuation of the thought in verse 12. It tells when those without law and those under the law will be judged. And in doing so it teaches one final truth about the judgement of God—namely, that it will take into account the secrets of men, not just their public sin. Sin which is secret at the present time will be open scandal at the Judgment of the Great White Throne. The Judge at that solemn time will be Jesus Christ, since the Father has committed all judgement to Him (John 5:22). When Paul adds, according to my gospel, he means “so my gospel teaches.” My gospel means the gospel Paul preached, which was the same one which the other apostles preached.

17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
The apostle has a third class to deal with, so now he turns to the question: Are the Jews, to whom the law was given, also lost? And of course the answer is, “Yes, they are lost too!”
There is no doubt that many Jews felt they were immune from God’s judgment. God would never send a Jew to Hell, they thought. The Gentiles, on the other hand, were fuel for the flames of Hell. Paul must now destroy this pretension by showing that under certain circumstances Gentiles may be closer to God than Jews.
First he reviews those things which a Jew prized as giving him an inside track with God. He bore the name of a Jew and thus was a member of God’s chosen earthly people. He rested on the law, which was never designed to give rest but rather to awaken the conscience to a sense of sinfulness. He gloried in God, the only true God, who had entered into a unique covenant relationship with the nation of Israel.

18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;
He knew God’s will, because a general outline of that will is given in the Scriptures. He approved the things that are excellent, because the law taught him how to assess moral values.

19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,
He prided himself on being a guide to the morally and spiritually blind, a light to those who were in the darkness of ignorance.

20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.
He felt qualified to correct the foolish or untaught and to teach babes, because the law gave him an outline of knowledge and of the truth.

21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?
But these things in which the Jew boasted had never changed his life. It was simply pride of race, religion, and knowledge without any corresponding moral transformation. He taught others but did not take the lessons to heart himself. He preached against stealing but did not practice what he preached.

22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?
When he forbade adultery, it was a case of “Do as I say, not as I do.” While he did loathe and abhor idols, he didn’t hesitate to rob temples, perhaps by actually looting heathen shrines.

23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?
He gloried in the possession of the law, but dishonoured the God who gave it by breaking its sacred precepts.

24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.
This combination of high talk and low walk caused the Gentiles to blaspheme the name of God. They judged the Lord, as men always do, by those who professed to be His followers. It was true in Isaiah’s day (Isa.52:5) and it is still true today. Each of us should ask:
If of Jesus Christ their only view
May be what they see of Him in you,
(insert your name), what do they see?

25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
In addition to the law, the Jew prided himself on the rite of circumcision. This was instituted by God as a sign of His covenant with Abraham (Gen.17:9-14). It expressed the separation of a people to God from the world. After a while the Jews so prided themselves on having had the operation that they contemptuously called the Gentiles the “uncircumcision.”
Here Paul links circumcision with the Law of Moses and points out that it was only valid as a sign when it was combined with a life of obedience. God is not concerned with external ceremonies unless they are accompanied by inward holiness. So a circumcised Jew who transgresses the law might just as well be uncircumcised.
When the apostle speaks about keepers or doers of the law in this passage, we must not take the words in an absolute sense.

26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
Thus, if a Gentile adheres to the morality prescribed by the law, even if he isn’t under the law, his uncircumcision is more acceptable than the circumcision of a Jewish transgressor. In such a case the Gentile’s heart is circumcised, and that is what counts.

27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
The superior behaviour of the Gentile condemns the Jew, who, with his written code and circumcision does not keep the law or live the circumcised life, the life of separation and sanctification.

28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
In God’s reckoning, a true Jew is not simply a man who has Abraham’s blood flowing in his veins or who has the mark of circumcision in his body. A person may have both these things and be the scum of the earth morally. The Lord is not swayed by external considerations of race or religion. He looks for inward sincerity and purity.

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
A real Jew is the one who is not only a descendant of Abraham but who also manifests a godly life. This passage does not teach that all believers are Jews, or that the church is the Israel of God. Paul is talking about those who are born of Jewish parentage and is insisting that the mere fact of birth and the ordinance of circumcision are not enough. There must also be inward reality.
True circumcision is a matter of the heart— not just a literal cutting of the body but the spiritual reality of surgery on the old, unregenerate nature.
Those who thus combine the outward sign and the inward grace receive God’s praise, if not man’s There is a play on words in this last verse that is not apparent in the English. The word “Jew” comes from “Judah,” meaning praise. A real Jew is one whose character is such as to receive praise from God.

from MacDonald’s Believers Bible Commentary

What these notes show:
1. Salvation is entirely by faith, and not by works.
2. Salvation can never be earned.
3. Works have nothing to do with salvation.
4. Replacement theology, the teaching that the church replaces Israel is a wrong theology, for in no way can a Christian be called a Jew.
5. There are two judgments: one for believers and one for unbelievers. What you believe on this fact alone will skew your interpretation of this passage of Scripture.
DHK

 

[gb93433]

Did Catholic Convert leave us?

 

[CatholicConvert]

Nope....didn't leave ya. I just have a whole lots of other much more important things in my life than this board.

Now, as for your post....

Well to answer your question according to what the entirety of what the NT teaches is that there is a judgment. For the believers there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus but for the non-believer there is a terrifying judgment.

Well, here's the first issue right here. You can be either in or out of Jesus as a believer. This idea of OSAS is a myth, a lie of the devil which has sent millions of people to hell (just as the German people of Luther's time who decided that OSAS meant "you can live any way you wish and still have heaven!").

But more than that, this is simply NOT how a covenant works. A covenant is a relationship between persons. It is a union. The best picture of this is marriage (the old Puritans used to refer to the covenant of marriage -- about the only thing they got right in their twisted theology). Marriage is union.

So is covenant. You may find the Biblical example of covenant in Ezekial 16. Notice ESPECIALLY verse 8:

Eze 16:8 Now when I passed by thee, and looked upon thee, behold, thy time was the time of love; and I spread my skirt over thee, and covered thy nakedness: yea, I sware unto thee, and entered into a covenant with thee, saith the Lord GOD, and thou becamest mine.

Any Jew reading this would immediately recognize the language of marriage in this particular verse. Marriage is the picture of the covenantal relationship between the believer and Christ.

And as you know....a relationship CAN BE BROKEN!!
Just ask any divorced person who married when they were "so in love!!"

There is no salvation in works of any kind. Ephesians 2:8,9, Titus 3:5-7 and Romans 4:4-8 are very clear on that.

That is quite correct. What you do not understand, just as DHK does not understand it even after repeated discussions with scripture attached, is that salvation and eternal life are two entirely different things.

Salvation is that act of God's sheer grace by which we are brought to Christ. We can do nothing to make it happen. It is Christ along who dies to effect its program, sends the Holy Spirit to call all sinners, and makes effacacious the removal of our sins when we respond to His grace. Nothing of the sinner is involved, and if you read both the canons of the Council of Orange and the Council of Trent, this is made quite clear. So clear, in fact, that I was SHOCKED when I read them as a Protestant.

I am not sure what you mean by, “This contradicts your paradigm of once and forever done perfection.”

It means that OSAS is a lie, pure and simple. Protestantism teaches that once one believes, all his sins, past, present, and future are "under the blood" so to speak, and will never face him again.

That is NOT what the Bible teaches, especially according to Romans 2: 5 - 10 and John 5: 28 -29. Both passages state that all men shall be judged according to their works, either good (righteous works) or bad (sinful works).

Could you point me to some scripture that teaches the point of good and bad being tied to eternal life?

Besides Romans 2: 5 - 10, which is rather clear, the best way to understand how one obtains eternal life is to understand the nature of the covenant and how it works. Ray Sutton wrote a book (as a Presbyterian, not a Catholic) in which he outlines what a covenant is and how it works. It is called THAT YOU MAY PROSPER - Dominion by Covenant, and you may read it online free at the I.C.E. Freebooks Website

After you read that, get the book A FATHER WHO KEEPS HIS PROMISE by Scott Hahn. Also get Hahn's tape series, THE COVENANTAL KINGDOM. Sutton will give you the foundational idea of the kingdom, Hahn will put the beauty of the familial kingdom around that skeleton.

All covenants can be broken. They are broken by severing the union (relationship) we have with the one we are in covenant with. We do this by doing that which offends the other party (such as a wife -- ever try having intimacies with a wife who is offended? Good luck!!)

When we commit "mortal sin", those are sins which are so bad that they sever our relationship with God. The picture of this is the Prodigal deeply insulting his father by asking for the inheritance. It is only repentance and restoration which can restore the lost relationship. But if we refuse to do so, and die in that state, then how can we be "saved"? How do we have eternal life when that life is in God alone and we have left Him?

Unh uh....don't work that way!!

If you truly believe the statement you made then how many good works would be acceptable to God to attain eternal life?.

Interesting. That's the exact same question I used to think of as a Protestant. It has NOTHING to do with QUANTITY!! It has to do with eternal life and keeping it.

We have eternal life when we are in relationship with God through Christ. And as long as we maintain that covenantal relationship/union, we continue to have eternal life. We are not "earning" eternal life by doing good works....we are staying "in covenant" with God by maintaining our union with him, just as a marriage is maintained by the actions of both parties in doing those things out of love which please the other spouse. Think of it as relationship and not as some kind of "deal" we are trying to make with God.

The "Rich Young Ruler" you mention had the wrong relationship. His love/relationship/union was primarily with money rather than with God. Christ just brought out his true state to him. He needed to break his "covenant" with money and make one with God. Part of covenant is love and trust. This guy trusted money more than God.

In the book of James it talks about the difference between a genuine saving faith and a creedal faith. A genuine saving faith is followed by the proof of one’s faith being demonstrated by good works.

Nope. Salvation needs no proof, for it is of God's grace. The baptized baby is as saved by grace as the one who is 90 years old and coming to Jesus in the last hour. It is GRACE, remember? Therefore, it cannot be either by works or use works to "prove it".

"Good works" are the fruit of faith, but they are also the way we "keep the covenant" of our baptism, for baptism is the entrance into the covenantal kingdom just as circumcision was in the Old Covenant. We are "oathed" to keep the Law of God all our days, and this is a "self-maledictory" oath (as are ALL covenant oaths).

Study the covenants of the OT and you will begin to see how a covenant works. The principles of covenant cannot be changed or it is not a covenant anymore.

Brother Ed

PS I apologize for being tart with you the other night. I was in a considerably bad humor that evening.