End Times

Jew interpret scripture literally, requiring "signs and wonders" as proof, that's one reason they reject Jesus's "spiritual leadership, he won't give them the signs and wonders they require.

As the "Passover lamb", Jesus only protects the "Firstborn", he was the first born and the church is the "Body of Christ", making us the "firstbron".

Jesus has already suffer the stripes of chastisement for the church in his flesh.

</font>[/QUOTE]Yes Jesus did suffer and paid the price. But we must notice Jesus said He only came for His own, His people, and came as the Lamb of God for His nation. Had Satan, and the powers of the house of Israel known, they would not have crucified my Lord - I Corinthians 2:8, "Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory."

We cannot make ourselves to be the nation of Israel. The Jew in Isaiah's day, just as in the days of the man Jesus, did not associate with the heathen, nor did they include them in their preaching as receiving the promises.

God makes clear distinction between His own nation, and all other nations. There is the Jew, and there is the Gentile. Today there is no difference. But before Damascus Road, and after the rapture, God makes distinction. Isaiah 61:5-6, "And strangers shall stand and feed your flocks, and the sons of the alien shall be your plowmen and your vinedressers. But ye shall be named the Priests of the Lord: men shall call you the Ministers of our God: ye shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, and in their glory shall ye boast yourselves." I see division here, and notice the Gentiles are not "Priests of the Lord". We do not live under the Law of Moses and the ordinances, and we don't live under the gospel of John the Baptist of "repent for the kingdom is at hand", and we don't live under the "great commission" of the Jewish church of "repent and be baptized for the remission of sins. In the Body of Christ we today have our own gospel, and that gospel is given to us by Christ Jesus from heaven.

You again speak of Israel. You speak of that before Damascus Road, and after the Rapture.

We know the "marriage supper of the Lamb" is prophecy future in Revelation. Agree Israel refused Messiah, so no "supper" could be held for the "bride".

Amen that God has not forgotten His people, His wife, and the coming "supper".

Yes agree, and they are guides to other things, such as showing Jesus being in the earth for three days and three nights, which makes GOOD FRIDAY absurd, and those believing such things showing their ignorance as to God's Word.

 

Me4Him and ituttut,

Quote:
_______________________________________________
"No Gentile or Jewish Christians in the great tribulation. Those that make it through, enduring until "their end", or the end, are "overcomers"; not Christians".
_______________________________________________

You go against the teaching of 90 percent of
those who hold your viewpoing by claiming no
Gentiles will become Christians in the great
tribulation.

You always make hypothetical statements. Here
is a new one by itutut: "Overcomers to the End are NOT Christians"; AND by Me4Him: "During the tribulation some Jews will be saved"!! [Neither
of you gives any Scripture for your theory that no Gentiles are saved in the great tribulation].

I can't stomach such teaching!!

This kind of eisegesis is clearly way, way out of the realm of Biblical exposition.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

No body has said No Gentiles will become Christians during the trib, only that God is dealing with Israel during this time and not the Gentiles.

At the present, Jesus is leading the Gentile church, does that mean no Jews are included, absolutely not, but it will be reversed during the trib.

 

Me4Him,
On 5/13 at 4:17 AM the statements were made by ituttut that:

Quote:
_______________________________________________
No Gentile or Jewish Christians in the great tribulation. Those that make it through, enduring until "their end", or the end, are
"overcomers"; not Christians".

No Gentile or Jewish Christians in the great tribulation. Those that make it through, enduring until "their end", or the end, are
"overcomers"; not Christians”.
_______________________________________________

Me4Him:
Quote:
_______________________________________________
"During the tribulation some Jews will be saved"
_______________________________________________

Why did you omit that a "countless number of
Gentiles will come out of the great tribulation"
??????????????????????????????????????????????
Why do you ignore the denial of that truth by claiming "no body says no Gentiles will be saved during the trib". CAN'T YOU EVEN READ THE QUOTE
BY ITUTTUT ???????????????????????????????????
________________________________________________
________________________________________________

BUT, at last, you seem to suddenly differ with ituttut above who claims "no Gentiles will be
saved in the great tribulation". Are you actually admitting that Gentiles will be saved during the great tribulation?

Quote:
_______________________________________________
“No body has said No Gentiles will become Christians during the trib, only that God is dealing with Israel during this time and not
the Gentiles”.
________________________________________________

If you finally see that Gentiles will be saved during the great tribulation, you now must find Scripture to back up your theory that God will
NOT deal with Gentile Christians at the same time!! “Judgment must begin with the household of God ... Gentile Christians must through much tribulation enter the kingdom of God”.
I Pet.4:17; Acts 14:22.

But you maintain that these Gentiles will NOT be among those “beheaded” during the great tribulation and they will NOT “serve God in the Temple of heaven” for 1000 years.

Are you willing to change your false teaching that Gentiles saved during the Tribulation will NOT earn the reward given to “overcomers” in the Church, i.e., that these Gentiles will “serve God as Pillars in the Temple of heaven” during
the Millennium? Rev.3:12; Rev.7:14-17.

If you are willing to admit your errors, I must reconsider further debate.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

Ro 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

God doesn't deal with Israel and the church at the same time.

You don't "SEE" the scriptures with an order/reasons for the "Scheduling" of events, until you do, it will just be a cobweb of verses.

 

Me4Him,

You have finally, at long last, admitted that
Gentiles will be saved during the tribulation!

What makes you think God STOPS dealing with
unfaithful Church Gentile Christians during
the great tribulation?????????????????????

"Judgment must begin with the household of
God". That Household is made up of Gentile
and Jewish Saints during the tribulation.

Jesus will "raise up all of the Jewish and Gentile saints on the last day and Jesus will
gather these elect upon the 4 winds from
the uttermost part of earth to the utter-
most part of heaven and He will send the
angels to gather them out of the same 4
winds from all of the uttermost parts of
the heavenS". John 6:38-40; Mark 13:27; Matt.
24:31.

While the angels are gathering the elect to
Jesus from all extremities of the heavens,
the Jewish tribes of earth will "mourn ...
and pray to escape and to prevail to stand before the Son of Man". Matt.24:30; Luke 21:36.

Me4Him,
When will you accept the words of the Lord
that He will save the nation of Israel when
He comes in glory with ALL the Saints??????
There is no fulness of the Gentiles until
Christ comes with all the Saints including
Gentiles saved during the tribulation!!!!!

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

Mel Miller: //What makes you think God STOPS dealing with
unfaithful Church Gentile Christians during
the great tribulation?????????????????????//

Gen 6:3 (KJV1611 Edition):

And the LORD said, My Spirit shall not alwayes striue with man;
for that hee also is flesh: yet his dayes shalbe an hundred and twenty yeeres.

 

Amen. And that's all we really can know. The rest is just speculation by people.

 

KenH and Dustin,

Quote:
_________________________________________________
Originally posted by Dustin: Jesus is coming back and that's all I care to know.
-------------------------------------------------
Amen. And that's all we really can know. The rest is just speculation by people.
-------------------------------------------------
Interesting that you don't care to know since
Jesus answered the question of the disciples
in private about "the sign of His Presence"!

I submit you have not put yourself into the
shoes of "some who will not taste death by any
means until AFTER they have seen God's Kingdom
coming in power" through the Two Witnesses.
Mark 9:31; Rev.12:10-11. Verse 11 especially!!

Jesus assured them that these believers will
"know the end is near, at the doors". Mt.24:33.

There were interval signs through the years to
the end which included the endtime prophecy of
Daniel's 1290 days. But no one could determine
the final day in advance ... except that it is
to occur "in the days after great tribulation".

Jesus gave no hint that those who "watch and
pray" until that unknown Day begins with signs
in the heavens should belong to any Body except the Church which He came to build!!!

However, Jesus also spoke of the Jews who will
"bless Him coming in the name of the Lord"!!!
This hope of Israel is recognized in the views
of most Christians; but they miss the Purpose
that God has in mind for Jews to recognize the
"same Sign" of the Day their Messiah comes and that Christians also will recognize.

This dual expectation of Christians and of Jews
whom the Two Witnesses will challenge to believe is what makes "the sign" of Christ's coming the means by which millions will suddenly have the chance to "escape the judgment coming on all inhabitants on all the face of all the earth during the Hour of Trial".

All believers will be kept from this Hour in the Rapture of the Elect by Jesus "from the earth to the uttermost part of heaven and their gathering
by the angels unto Jesus" while the Jews "mourn at His Presence" and Jesus says they will "know their hope hinges on praying to escape and to prevail to stand before the Son of Man"!!

The Jews who "mourn" on that Day, the Day on
which ALL believers will be raised together
"above and gathered out of the 4 winds by the angels unto Jesus" is what will become the most exciting and hoped for Day in all of mankind's history!! This "Day of the Lord" is the message
of the Prophets to the Jews from Isaiah to Zechariah and by John who calls it the "Day
of God's wrath and that of the Lamb!! Rev.6:17.

To get this "picture of expectation", you must
put yourself into the mind of Believers who
face "beheadings" and/or of Jews who will
suddenly realize their "redemption and kingdom
are near". Luke 21:28,31.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

I reject premillennialism/dispensationalism, Mel. You will be better off trying to convince someone else of your position. You are wasting your time with me.

 

End time theology is really simple. It is what is in God's eternal plan. I do not understand it all, but I will be with the Lord. That is all I know.

 

Amen, Brother Saturnepture -- Preach it!

1 John 3:1-2 (KJV1611 Edition):
Beholde, what manner of loue the Father hath
bestowed vpon vs, that wee should be called the
sonnes of God: therfore the world knoweth vs not,
because it knewe him not.
2 Beloued, now are we the sonnes of God, and it
doeth not yet appeare, what wee shall be: but
wee know, that when he shall appeare, we shall
bee like him: for we shall see him as he is.

Amen, Brother John - Preach it!

 

Mel you are misunderstanding what we say. I have never said No Gentiles Would Be Saved In The Great Tribulation. I said There will be no Christians go into the tribulation.

Can we deny scripture? When and where were we Gentiles, first called "Christians"? It was not in Jerusalem, or Judea, but in Antioch, where the Christian's belonged to a church. The Christian belief only came after Damascus Road (The Jew can now come as we Gentiles), and those in the Body of Christ are saved upon believing on the Lord Jesus Christ for our salvation, and it is done by the Grace of God through faith. We in the Body of Christ will be "caught up" to Him in the air. That is where the Christian will be during the "great tribulation", so they cannot be down here on the earth at that time. People will be saved, but they will not be saved as we while we "lived". All have to believe God as they live, and it was impossible for me to be saved like David, or He me while we lived. No one that goes into the tribulation can be saved as are you and I.

Prophecy again takes over and people will once again have to make "blood sacrifices to God", just as was required by all from Adam. Don't you find it strange we are never told to make "blood sacrifice"? All before Damascus Road had to, and all after the Rapture will have to. That is not Christian to do that for we are told we are saved by coming through His Blood for He was slaughtered for Us.

Why do you resist the teaching of Christ Jesus from heaven?

But Mel, it is scripture that tells us this. Can you show me where we are told to make blood sacrifices, or have a Priest do it for us? Is God dealing with His People today, OR is He reconciling the world unto Himself, of those that will?

Did Jesus on earth explain, or tell you about "The Body of Christ", or of the "Rapture", or of salvation "through faith", or the One Spiritual Baptism, and other things not before known? Isn't It Christ Jesus from heaven that explains, and tells us these things through His only heavenly appointed Apostle from Heaven, Paul the Apostle to the Gentile (our only one), and also to the Jew?

I have no eisegesis of the Bible. The Bible interprets itself, if we will only let it. Can you deny or prove by scripture what I repeat of the Bible is in error?

 

ituttut,

During the Endtime period of 7 years, it is your contention that people can be saved but not be
part of the Church; even though Jesus promised to build His church and be with us to the end of the age; and Paul said the fulness of Gentiles will only come when Messiah returns and all Israel is saved. Matt.19:20; Rom.11:25-26.

Your theory is based on assuming that John the Baptist was not saved before the Damascus
Road like we are saved since then because the new way of salvation revealed by Paul AND that by which Gentile Trib-Saints will be saved are
two different Gospels. On that basis alone you must conclude that only those saved after Paul taught a new Gospel will "come with Jesus".

You refuse to allow anyone to be saved by Paul’s Gospel during the Tribulation even though a countless number “come out of the great tribulation washed in the blood of the Lamb”. Rev.7:9-14. (Are you like Ed Edwards who claims these Trib-Saints do NOT literally go through any part of the tribulation just as he was in the Vietnam War but did not "come out of" the Vietnam (war) as such)?

On the basis of your false theory of two Gospels, you are saying that John the Baptist and Trib-Saints could not be saved as we are today; yet you admit that he and Trib-Martyrs will be raised up in the “first resurrection”. You base your false theory on the supposition
of Two Gospels of salvation ... i.e., one that
requires blood sacrifices and one that doesn't.

But Paul says Jesus is “coming WITH all the Saints at His Presence”. I Thess.3:13. I have not yet seen any outright denial from you regarding this promise. But neither Paul nor Jesus speaks of two comings of Jesus WITH the Saints from heaven.

Scripture speaks clearly of but one coming and one Presence and one “gathering of the Elect from earth to heaven” which is “after the tribulation”. Mark 13:24-27.

"We will be caught up to meet the Lord when He comes FOR all the Saints on the last day and,
by His own word, when He will gather the elect from earth to heaven and send the angels to gather them out of the 4 winds from all the extremities of the heavenS”. John 6:38-40; Matt.24:31.

You therefore deny Paul’s teaching that “ALL
the saints will come with Jesus”. You admit
that Trib-Martyrs will rise up in the first resurrection but deny that Trib-Survivors will be “caught up to meet the Lord in the air at
His Presence”!!

Paul does not contradict the “word of the Lord”!
But you are trying to make the salvation of
Trib-Saints dependant upon the keeping of blood
sacrifices ... suggesting that Paul taught a
different Gospel than that taught by Jesus.

So is that why you accuse me of "resisting the teaching of Jesus from heaven"?

Your theoretical quotes:
______________________________________________
People will be saved (during the tribulation), but they will not be saved as we while we `lived’. All have to believe God as they live, and it was impossible for me to be saved like David”.

Why do you resist the teaching of Christ Jesus from heaven?
______________________________________________

I accept the teaching of Paul who stated, “by the word of the Lord”, that He will gather the
Elect from earth to heaven in the days after
the tribulation”; but added that the dead in Christ will rise up first. Paul did not exclude those that “overcome to the End” from meeting Jesus at His Presence.

In fact, Paul prefaced his remarks by confirming that He will come with ALL the Saints. Neither Paul nor Jesus, at any time, suggested there are two Gospels of Salvation.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

Mel, I know it is hard to see, but what was presented can clearly be seen by some.

There are "two churches". The "Kingdom church" and the "Body Church, so the people in the "tribulation" period will be saved into the "Kingdom Church". We the "wild olive branch" are grafted in, but not as are the "natural" olive branch. We see that Israel has not been forgotten. He will again deal directly with His nation, as prophecy tells us. We today are not in "prophecy". We are "hidden" in Christ Jesus, I Corinthians 2:7.

I'm not saying that at all. John the Baptist was saved, but into the "Kingdom Church", as are Moses and David, and the rest. They were promised "land on this earth", and we are not promised any such thing. You are right as there were "two gospels" while the Apostles lived.

Do you believe Acts 2:38 is a gospel? It reads "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

Do you believe Acts 16:31 is a gospel? It reads "And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house."

You must believe one or the other. One of these looks to be what the Catholic church believes.

I can't speak for Ed Edwards. I went through the Korean War, from one point in my life on this earth, and came back in one point in my life to what ever awaited me. But some of my buddies "were taken from this life", and did not return to a point in their life. We in this world that "suffer for the cause of Christ" will be taken (just as those Marines-Soldiers-Sailors), but those lives not submitted to Him, will continue into the tribulation on this earth to go marching into the "Kingdom", if they are fortunate. The "Body of Christ" is in heaven all of this time.

All saved from the beginning to the end, are washed by the blood. But it is God who tells us how each is washed, and when. David could not be washed by the "blood" as he lived, for Jesus had not yet shed His blood. His blood immediately washes us for it was shed long ago, and is available for those that believe He can save. This is the gospel today for God is reconciling the world unto Himself - II Corinthians 5:18, "And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation". Does this "gospel" continue into the "tribulation"? If there is"rapture" what are we "raptured" from? I Thessalonians 1:10, "And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come." Does this not tell us we will be taken before His wrath comes.

Will those left be able to say I NOW believe on your name to save me Jesus Christ, or will they be praying the Lord's prayer of the "Kingdom" of "Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
10. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
11. Give us this day our daily bread.
12. And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
13. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen." This is the prayer for the "kingdom to come" as of the gospel of John the Baptist, for the "kingdom was at hand". It is going to be "at hand" in the tribulation. They won't be able to sell or buy the "daily bread". They will need to be "forgiven". They will want desperately for His kingdom to come, and deliver them from the evil.

I have not said there are two gospels of salvation. I say there are two gospels of How we are to be saved. Salvation is of God, and it is He who tells how each is to be saved as they live. Can't we see from the beginning blood was shed to "cover" man? God showed how when he clothed Adam and Eve. God accepted Abel's blood sacrifice, but not the bloodless offering from Cain. The first thing Noah did was offer blood sacrifice . Abraham made sacrifice, and they all did. But we are not required to do so, for Christ Jesus did it for us. After we are taken up, sacrifices will again be made.

Answer for yourself. Do you do "blood" sacrifice to God or have a Priest do it for you, or accept the sacrifice He did for you?

Bear with me for we need to look closely at some scripture. I Thessalonians 3:13, "To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints."

I see two ways to look at this. I lean to the following view as it seems to be what Paul has in mind. Paul is down here, and is talking to those Christians down here. Keeping that in mind let's read ahead to chapter 4, verses 13 through 18. "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.15. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18. Wherefore comfort one another with these words." Paul "comforts them as to those "asleep" and as to their "rapture".

Wasn't Paul looking for the "rapture" and "all those saints" just raised, verse 16, in His Presence as they come for us? Isn't it now the "Day of the Lord" beginning as we find in chapter 5, verse 2?

I fully agree with you this is "after the tribulation". But above we are talking about the "rapture" before the "tribulation comes". We see this that you speak of is in prophecy, just as is Mark 13:24-27. This was foretold, but the "rapture" was not.

Paul addresses this aspect you point to I Thessalonians chapter 5. We saw in Chapter 4 above Paul says "we" and "those" that will be raised first. When we get to Chapter 5 we see it begins with "But". But is separating the former from the latter. We are going from the "Body of Christ", to the "Kingdom of Christ". We are leaving the "mystery" to what was prophesied. "5. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief." Paul takes us to the door of "Prophesy", and Mark takes us beyond the door. We are not really interested what is beyond the door, other than to pity, and wonder why any would wish to enter into the horror, the fright and the pain that is told awaits them.

This of prophecy is true. These are those elect in the tribulation that will be gathered, which is a little time after our rapture. We need to understand the "kingdom was at hand" while Jesus was on earth, and had Israel accepted Messiah the "tribulation would come" for Jesus says who "warned you generation of vipers to flee from the wrath to come? Matthew 3:7.

As pointed out all those that are with Jesus as He catches us up are "all saints", and neither they nor we will go through the "great tribulation". You evidently believe what you say, but I don't, for I just proved by scripture we in the Body of Christ are raptured, before Jesus Christ sets in motion the "great tribulation" when He comes in His wrath to consume all things from off the land, including man and beast, the fowls, and fishes. And this includes Judah, and all inhabitants of Jerusalem. Zephaniah 1:2-4.

But you contradict for Jesus spoke on earth, and He spoke from heaven after being seated on the right hand of His Father. He had more to tell us, for we find God had hidden from man His purpose, until He told it to Paul. Paul then tells us. I believe what Jesus said on earth, and I believe what Jesus Christ from heaven tells us. I believe what Christ tells me in this dispensation, and He tells me I am in His Body, and He will catch me up to Him before He comes in His Wrath. Where is the contradiction?

Yes for you cannot see the distinction between the "Kingdom" and the "Body".

You misquote scripture. I find nowhere Paul saying "gather after the tribulation" those in the Body of Christ. What you present are not "comforting words", but words of despair and being in the "wrath" to come.

Was the gospel of the Kingdom offered to the Gentiles?"……Go not into the way of the Gentiles….. ", Matthew 10:5? Can't you see there were even more than Two gospels. All are saved by the Blood, but we must believe the gospel presented to us as we live. Way back there they believed God. Today we are to believe God. He couldn't tell them of Old the same things He tells us today. It was a "secret".

 

ituttut,

Your basic premise (and of Ed Edwards) is that the present dispensation ends at a so-called
Pre-Trib Rapture. Ed argues this false premise in the following quote:
______________________________________________
My quote: //What makes you think God STOPS dealing with unfaithful Church Gentile Christians during the great tribulation????//

Ed’s answer:
Gen 6:3 (KJV1611 Edition): The LORD said, My Spirit shall not alwayes striue with man; for that hee also is flesh: yet his dayes shal be
an hundred and twenty yeeres.
______________________________________________

Here EE completely ignores that God continues to “strive” with the wicked who refuse to repent in the 6th Trumpet judgment as well as the 4th and 5th Plagues. Rev.9:20-21; Rev.16:9-11. Then God allows the wicked to gather to Armageddon.

The wicked continue their blasphemies until God’s patience (thumos; anger) is exhausted as the last Plague empties in the air. Rev.15:1;
Rev.16:1-17. (New Jerusalem Bible).

The execution of God’s wrath does not begin until the 7th Trumpet which sounds on the last day ... up to 3½ days after “chronos-time is no longer” subject to a countdown at the end of this Age of Grace. Rev.10:6-7.

Christ “comes as a thief” only when the wicked have been gathered to Armageddon. Rev.16:15-16.

Now for your quote that totally ignores this
Age of Grace ends at the Second Coming:
______________________________________________
My quote:

During the Endtime period of 7 years, your contention is that people can be saved but
not be part of Christ’s Church; even though Jesus promised to build His Church and be
with us to the end of the age. Matt.28:20.
______________________________________________
Paul said the "fulness of Gentiles" will only come when Messiah returns and all Israel is saved ... Rom.11:25-27.

The 2nd coming of Christ is when the blinder comes off the eyes of the Jews and they recognize they are included in the "new covenant" promised by Jeremiah and Ezekiel because the old covenant is "about to vanish"! Matt.19:20; Rom.11:25-27; Heb.8:8-13.

Your quote:
There are "two churches". The "Kingdom church" and the "Body Church, so the people in the
"tribulation" period will be saved into the
"Kingdom Church". We the "wild olive branch" are grafted in, but not as are the "natural" olive branch. We see that Israel has not been forgotten. He will again deal directly with His nation, as prophecy tells us. We today are not in "prophecy". We are "hidden" in Christ Jesus, I Corinthians 2:7.
________________________________________________

Your basic false premise is that Gentile believers, as the “wild olive branch”, will not
continue to be grafted into the natural Olive Tree (as the Church) during the so-called tribulation period of 3½ years plus an additional 3½ years of great tribulation.

Your view is flawed by failing to recognize the "mystery" revealed to the Gentile Church remains a mystery to the unsaved Jews during
the Great Tribulation!! In their unbelieving
hearts, the OLD COVENANT continues to exist!

You “imagine” the existence of a separate Church Kingdom during the Endtime of this Age of Grace.
________________________________________________

You are correct that only “some agree” to what the majority consider false teaching! You charge
me with misquoting Scripture because Paul did
not say the "elect will be gathered after the
tribulation".

So you are saying that Paul was in disagreement with Jesus???!!!

Yet you actually agree above that Jesus will
"gather the elect from earth to heaven after
the great tribulation". This is most amazing!!
It reveals you do not understand the "mystery"
is still hidden only to the Jews until Christ
appears and they suddenly recognize that their
"redemption and kingdom are near and they beg
to escape and they will prevail to stand before the Son of Man when that Day comes suddenly ... as a snare, like a thief" ... even with armies gathered to Armageddon!! Lk.21:28,31,34-36;
I Thess.5:2-3; Rev.16:15-16.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

Yes we seem to agree on this.

But you are talking about what Ed Edwards believes, and Ed Edwards is wrong on this particular question. Please answer to what I wrote.

I agree with you here. But you fail to see this is really no concern of ours, as we are in heaven with Christ in the time of tribulation.

 

ituttut,

Why is it that you not only fail to give Scripture to support your main point but also admit the lack of knowledge following my quote?

My Quote: ________________________________________________
The execution of God’s wrath does not begin until the 7th Trumpet which sounds on the last day ... up to 3½ days after “chronos-time is no longer” subject to a countdown at the end of this Age of Grace. Rev.10:6-7. (Only Rev.11:18
states the appointed time has come for wrath)!

Your Quote:
What do you call what happened before this 7th Trumpet? This "before" is included in His wrath. What happens with the 7th Trumpet is not for us to know.
________________________________________________

For you to claim God's wrath begins "before" the
7th Trumpet completely ignores that "God's wrath
is not announced from heaven as having come"
until the 7th Trumpet sounds. Rev.11:15-18.

I am simply amazed that you plead ignorance of what happens at the 7th Trumpet. "IT IS THE APPOINTED TIME (the only appointed time in the Book of Revelation) for the *Resurrection* (the time to "judge the dead") and for the *Rapture* (the time to reward the saints) which cannot occur until Jesus comes in great power and glory "bringing His rewards WITH Him". Matt.16:27; Rev.22:12.

Again, I can hardly believe your admission of
ignorance regarding the time of God's wrath
which occurs on the very same day Christ comes
from heaven WITH "all the saints". Rev.l7:14;
Rev.11:18. (I Thess.4:13-14; with the souls of the dead in Christ first).

And at the same time He comes FOR all the Saints who "endure to the end" ... after the great
tribulation ... until the last day and the last
Trump. It sounds the 2nd and 3rd times as Christ comes WITH the saints from heaven at the 2nd
sound and then sends the angels at the 3rd sound FOR all the saints whom He first gathers from the earth! Rev.2:25-26; I Thess.3:13; I Thess. 4:16-17; Mark 13:24,27; Matt.24:31 !!!!!!!

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

Mel you evidently failed to read scripture I presented to prove the "wrath" begins long before the 7th trumpet. For you to read again - Quote "………..What we do know is what He tells us in His Word. We can see evidence of His wrath beginning to build, but the world does not recognize it as such at first. Power is given to one to begin the tribulation with the opening of the first seal, and then on to the 6th Seal. At the 6th Seal we see Christ taking direct control, as His Wrath is now recognized by the world. We know this is true for in Chapter 6, verse 17 we find, "For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

Mel if you believe His Word, how can you hold to the 7th Seal being the beginning of His Wrath, when men recognize it before the 1st Trumpet is sounded?" Unquote.

Please read my above, noticing what it says about when His wrath was seen. Then read your scripture reference. Your reference has things of the past included. His wrath begins with allowing anti-christ to come, and by the 6th seal God's wrath is plainly seen in Chapter 6, verse 17. His "wrath" had been working already. Revelation 11:15 shows much has happened, for the kingdoms of the world ARE become the kingdoms of our Lord, and his Christ. In 16, 17 there is Worship, and in 18 shows of His wrath, and now is the time of the dead, the judgments, awards, and destruction.

You will be more amazed when you see the truth. Paul comforts in I Thessalonians 4:18, and takes them to task in II Thessalonians 2 for believing other than the comforting words of Christ catching us up to Him before the effects that happen in Revelation 11:18. He tells them to let no man deceive them of this fact.

Mel Revelation is about Israel once more. The whole book of Revelation is about His wrath. The "rapture" is not in "prophecy" of which Revelation is. We were in heaven before Revelation 11, and before anti-christ becomes known (II Thessalonians 2:3), and what you are saying is Revelation 11 happens before anti-christ even comes. Don't you see that is what you are saying.

Paul does not want them ignorant, so he explained to them the "rapture", but they forgot, or believe those that deceive, for he has to tell them again they won't go through the tribulation. In II Thessalonians 1:7 he tells the confused one's, those troubled and not understanding, when Jesus does come with His mighty angels, we will be at rest when this happens. In chapter 2:1 he tells that Jesus with "gather" us, and in verse 2 to "quit worrying about it", then in verses 3, don't believe anybody that says we will go through the tribulation.

Also please note the "rapture" occurs with the "shout of Jesus Christ" as he calls our name, just as he did in raising (but not in a glorified body) Lazarus. You will not find this in any other resurrection. When we get to Revelation we can find no such "resurrection" for there is only one such, and it is only found before anti-christ becomes known. Our "resurrection" is before the opening of the "first seal".

The book of Revelation is for the people of Daniel we see by comparing Daniel 10:5-6, and Revelation 1:13, and not we today. The book is for those who believe in the Hebrew church of believing only what Jesus taught while here in the flesh, coming as the Lamb, the Messiah, and their King, or those of the "Kingdom Church". The Tribulation is foretold For Them.

Notice all churches are said to be in Asia. Not one is in the UsofA, Europe, Australia, but ASIA. Paul tells us all in Asia had left his teaching. Evidently when John was told to write this book, there was not a "Body Church" in Asia, and there will not be one there or anywhere else in the tribulation.

Mel, why do you continue to doubt scripture? I Thessalonians 1:10, "And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come." How can you say we go into tribulation, when we are already delivered from it? It will not happen to those of us In The Body of Christ.

 

ituttut:

When you refer to what Jesus taught on earth, you need to recognize He thought of His coming on a Day that includes the signs of Seal 6 and the Hour of the “7th Trumpet”. He revealed what happens on the Day of Wrath, i.e., a Day when signs in the sun and moon continue from “noon until the light returns at twilight”! Amos 8:9; Zech.14:6-7.

On that Day of Wrath and at the Hour of the
“last trump, the last of seven trumpets, Jesus will be crowned at the “Hour” of its first sounding and He will do three things during the “Hour of Trial on all mankind to which no Believer is appointed”! I Thess.5:9; Rev.3:10.

You follow the traditions of men that make Jesus wait for 7 years to (1) “Judge the dead in Christ” (by including Trib-Martyrs at the 2nd sounding of the “last trump”) which also requires the Rapture of all who survive.

You claim Paul did not honor the “word of the Lord to raise up all believers on the “last day” because (2) the 2nd sound of that Trumpet is when “God also brings the souls of those that sleep in Jesus with Him”.

Jesus will “gather the elect from earth to heaven and bring both the souls of the dead in Christ AND His rewards with Him for every believer on that same last day”. John 6:38-40; Mark 13:27; Matt.16:27; Rev.11:18; Rev.22:12.

What you are missing is the "instant of time" during which, at THE SIGN of His coming and Presence, while the tribes of earth begin to mourn, and at the 3rd sound of the 7th Trumpet, “a great sound”, Jesus will (3)
“Send His angels to complete the gathering of the elect and to fulfill the “Resurrection and Rewards” of Rev.11:18.

Then He “destroys the destroyers of earth on the same Day He comes as a thief and during the Hour of Trial coming on all the inhabitants of earth at His Presence”. Luke 21:34-36; I Thess.5:2-3.

He does this while the Jews “beg to escape and prevail to stand before the Son of Man”. All who prevail are “kept alive”. Rev.16:15; Matt.24:30-31; I Thess.5:2-3; Luke 21:34-36; Luke 17:33.

Paul and Revelation require for all believers ON THAT DAY what you claim applies only to the Jews! John was told that “no one can enter the Temple in heaven to hear the 7th Trumpet sound until the last Plague empties in the air.

That’s why, before Seal 7 opens on the Last Day, the elder identifies the Martyrs coming from under the Altar for the first time and entering the open Temple for the Court of Seal 7. Here you must see that Rev.7:9-Rev.8:5 occurs just before the Temple "was open" for Rev.11:15-19.

"No one can enter the Temple until the last of
the seven Plagues empties and the smoke of God's
glory and power clears the Temple"! Rev.15:1,8.

Then the “Temple was open" for the 1st sounding of the 7th Trumpet’s Coronation of Christ as the kingdoms of this world have become His Kingdom!

Who is confused? You wrote the following:
_______________________________________________
Paul does not want them to be ignorant, so he explained to them the "rapture", but they forgot, or believe those that deceive, for he
has to tell them again they won't go thru the tribulation. In II Thess.1:7 he tells the confused one's, those troubled and not
understanding, WHEN Jesus does come with His mighty angels, we will be at rest when this happens”.
________________________________________________
Here is your “confusion” because it was your response to what Jesus and Paul taught, i.e., that “God will bring the souls of all the
dead in Christ WHEN Jesus comes with His mighty angels. NOT seven years before He comes “as a thief” at Armageddon. But while the angels are gathering the elect and the tribes of earth
continue to “beg to stand before the Son of Man”. Rev.16:15; I Thess.5:2-3; Luke 21:34-36.

In quoting 2 Thess.1:7-10 above your confusion cries out for correction under the delusion that 7 years separate the gathering and the timely
“deliverance from tribulation for ALL who believe ON THE DAY Christ comes with His mighty angels”!!!!

Your confusion jumps out again at me in your response to this quote:
My quote:
________________________________________________
For you to claim God's wrath begins "before" the
7th Trumpet sounds completely ignores that
"God's wrath is not announced from heaven as having come" until the 7th Trumpet sounds. Rev.11:15-18.
________________________________________________
Your response:
The "rapture" is not in "prophecy" which Revelation is. When we get to Revelation we can find no such "resurrection" for there is only one such, and it is only found before anti-christ becomes known.
________________________________________________
Evidently you have determined to exclude all the dead rising up at the “first resurrection” of Rev.20:5.

Again:
Your quote:
___________________________________________
The book of Revelation is for the people of Daniel and not we today. The book is for those who believe in the Hebrew church of believing only what Jesus taught while here in the flesh, coming as their King, or those of the "Kingdom Church". The Tribulation is foretold For Them.

All churches are said to be in Asia. Not one is in the USA. Paul tells us all in Asia had left his teaching. Evidently when John was told to write this book, there was not a "Body Church" in Asia, and there will not be one there or anywhere else in the tribulation.

Mel, why do you continue to doubt Scripture: "And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come." How can you say we go into tribulation, when we are already delivered from it?
__________________________________________

Your basic premise assumes that “waiting for the Son from heaven” is only for a Pre-Tribulation Church and that only they are “delivered from God’s wrath”!! Nobody, saved or unsaved, pre-trib or pre-second coming, dies from God’s wrath!
His wrath is limited to the Day Christ appears!!

You falsely assume we are delivered from the so-called tribulation of seven years which is never called “a day of wrath”. You assume no “Body of Christ Church existed in Asia because Paul said they had left his teaching”.

Your whole scheme presents two gospels, two ways
of salvation and two resurrections of believers by dening the “rapture and resurrection” occur in Revelation. Your most shameful denial of
God’s truth is that “The book of Revelation is for the people of Daniel and not we today”

No wonder you stated “we don’t know what
happens at the 7th Trumpet”! The gathering of the saints from earth to heaven and the Resurrection of all believers (John 6:38-40; which you deny) and the destruction of the Armageddon soldiers occur on the same Last DAY and same Last TRUMP!

Seals 6 and 7 occur after the last Plague “exhausts God’s anger (thumos). God’s wrath (orgay) occurs on a DAY “after the great tribulation” and after the 7th Trumpet sounds 3 times. It sounds 1st for Christ’s Coronation as the “time for God’s wrath has come; 2nd for Jesus to “raise up all believers on the last day and 3rd for the angels, at the sound of a great trumpet, to complete the gathering out of all extremities of the heavenS”. John 6:38-40; Mark 13:27; Matt.24:31.

You have refused to accept the new truth Paul taught, i.e., that the “dead in Christ arise first” at the (2nd) sounding of the last
trump. For Paul honored the “word of the Lord that God will bring the souls of all whom Jesus raises up (including martyrs out of the great tribulation) on the last day”. Like Paul, I accept the “word of the Lord”!

Mel Miller www.lastday.net