End Times

[EdSutton]

Ed, your 'scheme' is very close to what I believe.

Mel, "apostasia" is the noun form derived from "aphistemi" which is the verb form, according to Wigram in his Analytical Lexicon of the New Testament. This would seem to basically agree with Strong. I suggest that too much differentiation between parts of speech, as in noun vs. verb, is akin to seeing a vast difference between 'believe' as in "pisteuo" (verb) and 'faith' as in "pistis" (noun). It simply isn't there. Even Strong says that ' 'apostasia' [(fem. of the same as... 'apostasion' (neut.) ...from a der. of 'aphistemi'.'] FTR, the 'position' that this refers to "a departure" is not original to Thomas Ice (Who is Thomas Ice?), but I believe is the basic position taken a half century ago by the late E. Schyler English in Rethinking the Rapture unless my memory is failing me worse than I thought. I only got to glance at the book one time, and that was almost 40 years ago, so I could be off a bit on this.

In His grace,

Ed

 

[Mel Miller]

:type: Ed Sutton,

I don't have Wigram's book. Will you please give me his evidence to support his claim that "Apostasy is a derivative of Aphistemi".

I do have "Strong's Complete Dictionary of Bible Words" but I cannot
find your so-called evidence that it agrees with Wigram. Will you please
cite the exact page for your quote.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

[EdSutton]

:type: Ed Sutton,

I don't have Wigram's book. Will you please give me his evidence to support his claim that "Apostasy is a derivative of Aphistemi".

I do have "Strong's Complete Dictionary of Bible Words" but I cannot
find your so-called evidence that it agrees with Wigram. Will you please
cite the exact page for your quote.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible(c) , (Section) Greek Dictionary of the New Testamant, p. 15. - Abingdon Press.

Unfortunately, I cannot copy Wigram, nor type in the Greek letters, so suffice this to say, Wigram lists the primary root derivative of each and every word found in the NT, with the relevant grammatical import, such as case, number, tense, etc. [This lexicon was called a "cheater lexicon" in when I went to Bible College, (and the use of it could get you a failing grade in Greek, if found out) as supplied the decliniation of words, relieving the need to be able to parse the word, hence really learning the Greek language.] This cite was from the Analytical Greek Lexicon of the New Testament, Wigram, p. 46 (Associated Publishers and Authors).

Secondly, although I did not previously mention it, as you well know (probably better than I), "apostasia" is a compound word, the etymology from roots of "apo" and "stasis", hence- 'away from' a 'state'. i.e., " a departure". I agree that the 'usual' sense is "apostasy", a departure (i.e. 'defection') from the truth, and this is how the word is most often used. I also agree with some that this is not always the only sense in which the word is used, and the context may suggest another sense. The word is only found twice in the NT, and some five in the LXX if my info is correct. The very fact that the NT (KJV) renders once as "forsake" (Acts 21:21) and the other as "a falling away" (properly THE falling away, in deference to the definite article "n") (II Thess. 2:3), makes me extremely leery of attempts to dogmatically assert that this should really be rendered as apostasy, or conversely, dogmatically asserting that this has to be a reference to 'the rapture'. I simply suggest that there needs to be a wider Scriptural basis for such a contusion- er I mean conclusion. Either or both possibilities seem to me to be allowed here, and I can find more 'certain' things in Scripture to be 'dogmatic' about.

In his grace,

Ed

 

[Mel Miller]

Ed Sutton,

You have a much, much more open-minded approach to the meaning of Scritpure than I have found in some on this forum. I respect you highly!

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"Either or both possibilities seem to me to be allowed here, and I can find more 'certain' things in Scripture to be 'dogmatic' about".
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I would have agreed with Terry Harrington if he had shown the same openness to agree that apostasia and aphistemi (#646 and #868) both refer to the idea of "defection (departure) from the truth". Instead he emphasized that Apostasy has various meanings. Only by recognizing the meaning of "defection" can the context of 2 Thess.2 determine what and who restrains the revelation of the Antichrist.

All thru church history the "restrainer" of iniquity has been understood to refer to God's appointment of "lawful government". Only since the teaching of editors of the Scofield Bible has the idea been introduced that the church is the restrainer that must be "removed" from our midst.

Revelation supplies the reason for "removing" lawful government and the corresponding sudden change of purpose by God to inspire the ten kings to support the Lawless One after they "remove" Babylon the Great from the "midst of lawful government".

God "first brings judgment on the household of God" when the Mystery of Iniquity reaches the point of Lawful Government "committing fornication
with all nations and peoples and kings". I Pet.4:17. Mystery Babylon the Great is the precursor to the Endtime. Rome will "rule the kings of earth for a short time" before 10 kings destroy the city in one hour and God causes them to "give their power and authority to the Beast". Rev.17:10-18.

So the context of 2 Thess. 2 favors the removal of Mystery Babylon as the instrument of Lawful Government. Her sins of "fornication" as a Ruler and as a System will bring God's judgment on human government. The System will be confiscated and made subservient to the Antichrist for 42 months!
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :wavey:

 

[mnw]

By restrainer do you refer to the "he" of II Thessalonians 2:7?

If so, how can "lawful government" be defined with a word that is masculine singular? Maybe someone whose Greek is better than mine will be able to tell whether it is actually masculine or not. But that does seem to be the case.

And actually, a quick glance at some older commentaries seems to indicate that most in history thought the "he" referred to the pope, not lawful government. Now, it was just a quick glance so I may be wrong on that.

My main point is that I cannot see how the restrainer can be seen to be lawful government. I believer the "he who know letteth" refers to the Holy Spirit.

 

[Mel Miller]

mnw,

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I cannot see how the restrainer can be seen to be lawful government. I believer the "he who know letteth" refers to the Holy Spirit.
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If your view sees the Day of the Lord beginning 3 1/2 years before the great tribulation begins, we should assume the Holy Spirit terminates His ministry of saving men from sin during the first half of a 7-year period wherein He allows Mystery Babylon to continue, unjudged, "committing fornication with the nations, peoples and kings of earth". Rev.17:2; Rev.18:3. That's when God's people should "come out" of the System lest they suffer plagues coming during the final 3 1/2 years. Rev.18:4-8.

Peter's prediction that "judgment must begin with the household of God" does not fit with the Holy Spirit removing the church to heaven 3 1/2 years before His judgment begins. I Pet.4:17.

God's DAY of wrath cannot begin until 42 months after His Judgment removes Mystery Babylon in one Hour by the Ten Kings and He "causes them" to support the Lawless One for the final 42 months. The Day of God Almighty is a single 12-Hour-Day in which Christ appears to destroy the ungodly and deliver the righteous from the "HOUR of Trial coming on all the inhabitants on all the face of all the earth"! (HOUR means the period when Christ appears in a cloud with great power and glory; not a period of 7 years). Rev.3:10-11; Luke 21:27-35.

That HOUR is the only time that the "tribes of earth mourn and beg to escape all these things and they prevail to stand before the Son of Man ... while angels are gathering the elect from all extremities of the heavens"!! Jesus gathers the elect from earth to heaven BEFORE the tribes of earth see Him. They mourn and beg to escape AFTER He gathers us from the earth to heaven! Mark 13:27; Matt.24:30-31; Luke 21:36.

Jews who "mourn" and "beg to escape" are not the same as the Elect!
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :wavey: