Once saved always saved

The fact is - non-Catholics get "max-time" in Purgatory because we are not having indulgences earned for us after we die - and we don't have last rites (extreeeeme unction?) at death. So "whatever suffering" we accumulated (owed) during life must be fully paid as nobody is trying to argue God out of tormenting us - in our behalf -- not even Christ.

Sorry - but "it stinks to be non-Catholic" when it comes to purgatory.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Of course it also "stinks to be non-Catholic" when it comes to the New Covenant and salvation - since the RCC claims that the New Covenant is CONFINED to "the Catholic MASS" as "The New Covenant in My blood".

This means that "WE" must be saved "some other way" - not the Bible way.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Suppose a person gets baptised in a baptist church and immediately dies of a heart attack, would that person go right to heaven?

 

Padredurand,

Amen. You made a good response that points to the text.

Steaver summarizes the chapter as: "So all the writer is saying is that he isn’t going to preach “get saved” to the already saved because it would be pointless." It certainly stretches the bounds of reality to think that the writer, in the middle of his letter, comes out with a pronouncement about what he isn't going to talk about, and then takes a chapter to do it.

Steaver then assures us that if we will just read the entire book of Hebrews, it will confirm his view of security. Perhaps he missed these other warnings along the way:

It seems strange to think that God would spend so much time warning us about something that can't happen. And one furthermore wonders whether one who thinks it is impossible to fall away can possibly take these warnings seriously.

But, of course, Hebrews 6 isn’t a warning. Rather, the writer there refers to actual apostasy, for he says in verse 4, NAS Hebrews 6:4 “For in the case of those….” There is nothing conditional in the passage.

This is just one of many passages that refer to actual cases of apostasy in the Scriptures. Perhaps I will share more of those, time permitting, soon.

In Christ,

Bob

 

The conditions you have listed are not conditions at all. They are the "results" of being born again.

Tell me Bob. Is "abiding, obedient, faith in Jesus as Lord and Savior that has us following Jesus, albeit imperfectly" what saved you? Is this something you do in order to keep yourself saved?

God Bless! </font>[/QUOTE]Steaver,

My comments you quoted followed my quotation from 1 John 1 including the following verses:

Steaver, "if" doesn't indicate result; it indicates condition. "If" we walk in the light, then the blood of Jesus cleanses us. Walking in the light is not walking in sinlessness, according to John. But it would seem to indicate a direction or path in which one is walking as opposed to walking in darkness. Walking in the light doesn't earn our forgiveness, but it is a condition, according to John, for receiving the continued cleansing of Jesus blood. If we walk in the darkness, on the other hand, we don't have fellowship with God, according to John in verse 6.

Steaver, I trusted in the blood of Jesus for my salvation. I was helpless. My life, compared with the law of God, had earned me death. Nothing I ever do will change that. I don't measure up to God's character as expressed in His law. I never will. We are saved, however, to have a love relationship with God. God requires that we repent and live in accordance with the truth that Jesus is Lord. We offer ourselves for service. This is not done through our own power, as though it were something for which we could claim credit. Rather, the Word of God and the Holy Spirit are at work in our lives as God works to conform us to the image of Christ.

Steaver, do you think that "an abiding, obedient faith in Jesus as Lord" is unnecessary, and that a temporary, disobedient, faith that doesn't lead one to follow is all one needs?

God's blessings back at you, brother,

Bob

 

Thanks padredurand, I disagree because of what I said above. There is just so many clear passages of scripture which states otherwise and that would cause contradiction which is something I do not endorse nor believe.

Not at all. I welcome all discussions on all passages, otherwise I wouldn't be here. But you will find that most are very vague and stretch the outer limits in order to conform to the debunking of Christ's ability to protect and keep those who has called on Him for salvation.

God Bless!

 

Are you then concluding that any Christian who has an outstanding debt of forgiveness owed will lose their salvation according to this passage?

Does this happen at a judgment time or is it instant, like while a Christian is holding a grudge they are unsaved and when they then repent and forgive the debt they are saved again? Just how would this work?

If yes, what if a Christian has held a grudge for say two weeks against another and then suddenly dies without forgiving, does this Christian go to hell then?

God Bless!

 

Hi Bob,

I know about the warnings. The question is, are they warnings about losing one's salvation or are they warnings about wasting your new life in Christ or maybe warnings about never truly receiving Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior but remaining in unbelief?

I see someone neglecting salvation. Our preacher preaches salvation almost every week because he knows that not everyone who warms a pew every Sunday is saved. You must be born again. The belief must get from the head to the heart or else it doesn't save. Once in the heart there is a new creature. One who follows Jesus Christ to the end.

So the passage is either warning against the true believer neglecting their new life, for there is a judgment coming even for the believer although it doesn't include condemnation to hell, or it is warning those pew warmers that they better be true and not putting off God's offer to be born again.

Here again you have the same thing. You see the words "unbelieving heart" ? This is what I was saying. Not everyone in the chruch is truly saved.

Here again are warnings against those who play church. The writer goes on to say in verse 39, "But we (True believers) are not of them (unregenerated) who draw back unto perdition; but of them (True believers) that believe to the saving of the soul".

"Perdition" means total destruction! True believers do not draw back this far.

Again, many warnings about unbelief. Let me note one part of this passage. " and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord". Compare this fact with this one.... " And the God of peace sanctify you wholly ; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it. " (1 Thess 5:23-24)

Now that is clear! Jesus WILL DO IT! Praise Him!

Well it is not what you think it is. God is not warning us about a born again Christian becoming damned to hell. This would contradict many other passages of scripture. So what you have to do is put it in it's rightful perspective. Hebrews is a huge warning against neglecting your new life or never truly believing at all and turning away.

If you study in depth "born again" you will look at those difficult passages in a new and refreshing light. Precept must be upon precept. Build your doctrine from the foundation of Jesus Christ and don't let the meat of the word shake the foundation of the word.

God Bless!

 

Hi Bob,

I'm not sure how to address your comments. At some points you seem to believe one must do something to remain saved but then with other comments you concede that it is all Christ which keeps us going. I am a bit confused.

I believe that the scriptures teach that "an abiding, obedient faith in Jesus as Lord" is an attribute of being regenerated by the Holy Ghost. Not something we do out of want but rather out of love. Because He first loved us. It comes naturally as we grow from a babe in Christ. Some grow slower than others. We are new creatures and therfore we naturally grow in a new way, the way of Christ.

"a temporary, disobedient, faith that doesn't lead one to follow" is a false unregenerated faith. It will not save. This person was never born again. ( 1 John 2:19 )

God Bless!

 

Steaver writes:

Let’s examine the Hebrews 10 passage, in particular, and see which option listed above fits the passage.

Is the Hebrew writer talking about those who never became Christians, remaining in unbelief?

1) Those in question had received the knowledge of the truth. (vs. 26)

2) Those in question had been sanctified by the blood of the covenant. (vs. 29)

3) Those in question could be warned with the admonition that “The Lord will judge His people.”

First, it is hard to imagine an unbeliever being described as having “received the knowledge of the truth”. The last two items are conclusive, however. Can one, by any stretch of the imagination, consider as “unregenerate” those who had been sanctified by the blood of the covenant? When the blood of the covenant sets you apart, you are saved, Steaver. Finally, those in question are described as the Lord’s people. So, yes, this warning is addressed to Christians.

But you appeal to verse 39:

But, again, the warning is not to unregenerate people, but to those who had been sanctified by the blood of the covenant. It refers to the Lord’s people. While the Hebrew writer might have been convinced that his recipients were not of those who draw back to perdition, nonetheless, it is obvious that some do. Furthermore, it was conceivable that some of them might, thus the warning.

Furthermore, it is obvious that this passage is talking about salvation, and not just “wasting one’s new life in Christ.” For those that go on sinning willfully, “there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins.” How can one be saved without a sacrifice for sins? Can one go on sinning willfully without the benefit of the blood of Jesus, yet be saved? And verse 39, as you pointed out, refers to perdition, or destruction.

So to maintain that:

…requires closing your eyes to what is said about the people under consideration in Hebrews 10. It is clear that those addressed were Christians, and it is clear that their salvation is at issue. The same thing is clear in Hebrews 6. Padredurand demonstrated earlier that Hebrews 6, also, has Christians under consideration.

I will write more, as time permits, in the coming days.

Blessings,

Bob

 

I was raised in a RC church and I can remember, very vividly, crying myself to sleep as a little girl. Why?

Because I was afraid I would die, be sent to purgatory, and have to stay there forever because we were too poor for anyone to pay for a 'mass' for me so I could eventually get to Heaven!?!

Now that I am a Baptist, I have the assurance of knowing I will be in Heaven when I die.

I know poor widows who are spending their SS on "praying their dead husbands" out of purgatory and have been doing it for YEARS! It's sad...

NOWHERE in scripture are we told to pray for (or to) the dead. Period!

§ue (OSAS)

 

"It is clear that those addressed were Christians,"

So you conclude that the writer of Hebrews and the writers of all the other letters to Christians had insight to the hearts of all their members? They new for certain there wasn't any false converts tagging along? Even the eleven disciples had no idea who was the false one when Jesus told them that there was a devil among them!

Well Bob, if this is the position you take then I guess you have yourself some huge contradiction problems in the scriptures you read. I have given an alternative view of the passages brought forth which even if you do not agree with the view it is still a viable option.

Can you give me a viable option to the scripture I quoted from 1 Thess 5:23-24 where it claims what Jesus "will do", that is sanctify wholly and preserve blameless?

Here is another one, please explain to me that it could mean something other than what it appears to say....

"But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst ; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life ." (John 4:14)

I see "never thirst" and "shall be everlasting life".

Now explain how something everlasting can cease to exist!

Do you have eternal life Bob, or has God given you some other type of life?

God Bless!

 

HI TP,

Do you have eternal life? 1 John tells us we can know.

God bless!

 

1 John 5:11-13 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
--The record is that which John has just written in his epistle. It is the inspired Word of God. He says that God has given us eternal life. Notice, that he does not say that God WILL give us eternal, but HAS given eternal life. It is a possession that every born again again believer has. This life is in his son. I have the Son. I have eternal life. This one thing I know.

12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
--This verse is very simple to comprehend. There is no need of falling back on Catholic teaching here. Either you have the Son of God or you don't. There is no purgatory, no in between state, no sitting on the fence. Do you have the Son. If you don't, you don't have eternal life. If you do, you do have eternal life. I trusted Jesus Christ as my Saviour some years ago. He, by the power of His Holy Spirit came and dwelt within me. I have the Son. I know that I have eternal life. Do you?

13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
--To those that believe on the name of the Son of God, John writes they may KNOW that they have eternal life. It is not hope so, guess so, will see at the judgement day, etc. It is "know so." I know that I have eternal just as surely as if had already been there. I know so. Why? Because I have believed on the name of the Son of God. God doesn't lie. His Word is true.
DHK

 

Thanks DHK! Very clear, hope to hear from TP soon on it.

I am afraid that is not the End. In the End it will depend on whether or not you are found to be IN Jesus Christ and He IN you. The Spirit within the born again is what produces true hope and assurance. To this day the unbelieving Jews are "hoping in a loving God" to save them, the very God we worship, but this hope is no hope at all because they have rejected the only salvation offered IN Jesus Christ.

God Bless!