Once saved always saved

[BobRyan]

The fact is - non-Catholics get "max-time" in Purgatory because we are not having indulgences earned for us after we die - and we don't have last rites (extreeeeme unction?) at death. So "whatever suffering" we accumulated (owed) during life must be fully paid as nobody is trying to argue God out of tormenting us - in our behalf -- not even Christ.

Sorry - but "it stinks to be non-Catholic" when it comes to purgatory.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Of course it also "stinks to be non-Catholic" when it comes to the New Covenant and salvation - since the RCC claims that the New Covenant is CONFINED to "the Catholic MASS" as "The New Covenant in My blood".

This means that "WE" must be saved "some other way" - not the Bible way.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Ps104_33]

Suppose a person gets baptised in a baptist church and immediately dies of a heart attack, would that person go right to heaven?

 

[MIZ83]

Padredurand,

Amen. You made a good response that points to the text.

Steaver summarizes the chapter as: "So all the writer is saying is that he isn’t going to preach “get saved” to the already saved because it would be pointless." It certainly stretches the bounds of reality to think that the writer, in the middle of his letter, comes out with a pronouncement about what he isn't going to talk about, and then takes a chapter to do it.

Steaver then assures us that if we will just read the entire book of Hebrews, it will confirm his view of security. Perhaps he missed these other warnings along the way:

NAS Hebrews 2:1 For this reason we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away from it. 2 For if the word spoken through angels proved unalterable, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompense, 3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation?

Heb 3:7 Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says, "Today, if you hear his voice, 8 do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, on the day of testing in the wilderness, 9 where your fathers put me to the test and saw my works 10 for forty years. Therefore I was provoked with that generation, and said, 'They always go astray in their heart; they have not known my ways.' 11 As I swore in my wrath, 'They shall not enter my rest.'" 12 Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. 13 But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called "today," that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end. 15 As it is said, "Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion."

NAS Hebrews 4:1 Therefore, let us fear lest, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you should seem to have come short of it.

NAS Hebrews 4:6 Since therefore it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience, 7 He again fixes a certain day, "Today," saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before, "Today if you hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts."

NAS Hebrews 4:11 Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall through following the same example of disobedience.

NAS Hebrews 10:23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful; 24 and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, 25 not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more, as you see the day drawing near. 26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain terrifying expectation of judgment, and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay." And again, "The Lord will judge His people." 31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

NAS Hebrews 12:14 Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord. 15 See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it many be defiled; 16 that there be no immoral or godless person like Esau, who sold his own birthright for a single meal. 17 For you know that even afterwards, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought for it with tears.

NAS Hebrews 12:25 See to it that you do not refuse Him who is speaking. For if those did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less shall we escape who turn away from Him who warns from heaven.

It seems strange to think that God would spend so much time warning us about something that can't happen. And one furthermore wonders whether one who thinks it is impossible to fall away can possibly take these warnings seriously.

But, of course, Hebrews 6 isn’t a warning. Rather, the writer there refers to actual apostasy, for he says in verse 4, NAS Hebrews 6:4 “For in the case of those….” There is nothing conditional in the passage.

This is just one of many passages that refer to actual cases of apostasy in the Scriptures. Perhaps I will share more of those, time permitting, soon.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[MIZ83]

Originally posted by steaver:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> I believe in security for the believer. It is conditional security. That condition is not perfection, nor is it a given level of achievement, nor is it a certain degree of sinlessness, but it is an abiding, obedient, faith in Jesus as Lord and Savior that has us following Jesus, albeit imperfectly.

The conditions you have listed are not conditions at all. They are the "results" of being born again.

Tell me Bob. Is "abiding, obedient, faith in Jesus as Lord and Savior that has us following Jesus, albeit imperfectly" what saved you? Is this something you do in order to keep yourself saved?

God Bless!

</font>[/QUOTE]Steaver,

My comments you quoted followed my quotation from 1 John 1 including the following verses:

7 but if we walk in the light as He Himself is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Steaver, "if" doesn't indicate result; it indicates condition. "If" we walk in the light, then the blood of Jesus cleanses us. Walking in the light is not walking in sinlessness, according to John. But it would seem to indicate a direction or path in which one is walking as opposed to walking in darkness. Walking in the light doesn't earn our forgiveness, but it is a condition, according to John, for receiving the continued cleansing of Jesus blood. If we walk in the darkness, on the other hand, we don't have fellowship with God, according to John in verse 6.

Steaver, I trusted in the blood of Jesus for my salvation. I was helpless. My life, compared with the law of God, had earned me death. Nothing I ever do will change that. I don't measure up to God's character as expressed in His law. I never will. We are saved, however, to have a love relationship with God. God requires that we repent and live in accordance with the truth that Jesus is Lord. We offer ourselves for service. This is not done through our own power, as though it were something for which we could claim credit. Rather, the Word of God and the Holy Spirit are at work in our lives as God works to conform us to the image of Christ.

Steaver, do you think that "an abiding, obedient faith in Jesus as Lord" is unnecessary, and that a temporary, disobedient, faith that doesn't lead one to follow is all one needs?

God's blessings back at you, brother,

Bob

 

[steaver]

Plainly read and understood Hebrews 6 says that believers fall away.

Thanks padredurand, I disagree because of what I said above. There is just so many clear passages of scripture which states otherwise and that would cause contradiction which is something I do not endorse nor believe.

Should I assume that any text I may present will be considered "vague and taken out of context" without discussion?

Not at all. I welcome all discussions on all passages, otherwise I wouldn't be here. But you will find that most are very vague and stretch the outer limits in order to conform to the debunking of Christ's ability to protect and keep those who has called on Him for salvation.

God Bless!

 

[steaver]

In Matt 18 Christ speaks of one who is fully forgiven - who then later refuses to forgiven someone else on human terms. He then is forced to pay to the king all that was forgiven and Christ said "SO shall my Heavenly Father do to EACH OF YOU if you do not forgive your brother from your heart".

He is claiming that FORGIVENESS RECEIVED is the basis for our forgiving others. Then He claims that if we enter that state and REFUSE to forgive others - our OWN forgiveness will be revoked.

The story is powerful in that the end is of the form "SO shall My heavenly Father DO TO EACH ONE of you..."

It is hard to escape this warning about forgiveness revoked at its use in motivating right behavior.

In Christ,

Are you then concluding that any Christian who has an outstanding debt of forgiveness owed will lose their salvation according to this passage?

Does this happen at a judgment time or is it instant, like while a Christian is holding a grudge they are unsaved and when they then repent and forgive the debt they are saved again? Just how would this work?

If yes, what if a Christian has held a grudge for say two weeks against another and then suddenly dies without forgiving, does this Christian go to hell then?

God Bless!

 

[steaver]

Steaver then assures us that if we will just read the entire book of Hebrews, it will confirm his view of security. Perhaps he missed these other warnings along the way:

Hi Bob,

I know about the warnings. The question is, are they warnings about losing one's salvation or are they warnings about wasting your new life in Christ or maybe warnings about never truly receiving Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior but remaining in unbelief?

NAS Hebrews 2:1 For this reason we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away from it. 2 For if the word spoken through angels proved unalterable, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompense, 3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation?

I see someone neglecting salvation. Our preacher preaches salvation almost every week because he knows that not everyone who warms a pew every Sunday is saved. You must be born again. The belief must get from the head to the heart or else it doesn't save. Once in the heart there is a new creature. One who follows Jesus Christ to the end.

So the passage is either warning against the true believer neglecting their new life, for there is a judgment coming even for the believer although it doesn't include condemnation to hell, or it is warning those pew warmers that they better be true and not putting off God's offer to be born again.

Heb 3:7 Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says, "Today, if you hear his voice, 8 do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, on the day of testing in the wilderness, 9 where your fathers put me to the test and saw my works 10 for forty years. Therefore I was provoked with that generation, and said, 'They always go astray in their heart; they have not known my ways.' 11 As I swore in my wrath, 'They shall not enter my rest.'" 12 Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. 13 But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called "today," that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end. 15 As it is said, "Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion."

Here again you have the same thing. You see the words "unbelieving heart" ? This is what I was saying. Not everyone in the chruch is truly saved.

NAS Hebrews 10:23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful; 24 and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, 25 not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more, as you see the day drawing near. 26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain terrifying expectation of judgment, and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay." And again, "The Lord will judge His people." 31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Here again are warnings against those who play church. The writer goes on to say in verse 39, "But we (True believers) are not of them (unregenerated) who draw back unto perdition; but of them (True believers) that believe to the saving of the soul".

"Perdition" means total destruction! True believers do not draw back this far.

NAS Hebrews 12:14 Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord. 15 See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it many be defiled; 16 that there be no immoral or godless person like Esau, who sold his own birthright for a single meal. 17 For you know that even afterwards, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought for it with tears.

Again, many warnings about unbelief. Let me note one part of this passage. " and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord". Compare this fact with this one.... " And the God of peace sanctify you wholly ; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it. " (1 Thess 5:23-24)

Now that is clear! Jesus WILL DO IT! Praise Him!

It seems strange to think that God would spend so much time warning us about something that can't happen. And one furthermore wonders whether one who thinks it is impossible to fall away can possibly take these warnings seriously.

Well it is not what you think it is. God is not warning us about a born again Christian becoming damned to hell. This would contradict many other passages of scripture. So what you have to do is put it in it's rightful perspective. Hebrews is a huge warning against neglecting your new life or never truly believing at all and turning away.

If you study in depth "born again" you will look at those difficult passages in a new and refreshing light. Precept must be upon precept. Build your doctrine from the foundation of Jesus Christ and don't let the meat of the word shake the foundation of the word.

God Bless!

 

[steaver]

Steaver, I trusted in the blood of Jesus for my salvation. I was helpless. My life, compared with the law of God, had earned me death. Nothing I ever do will change that. I don't measure up to God's character as expressed in His law. I never will. We are saved, however, to have a love relationship with God. God requires that we repent and live in accordance with the truth that Jesus is Lord. We offer ourselves for service. This is not done through our own power, as though it were something for which we could claim credit. Rather, the Word of God and the Holy Spirit are at work in our lives as God works to conform us to the image of Christ.

Hi Bob,

I'm not sure how to address your comments. At some points you seem to believe one must do something to remain saved but then with other comments you concede that it is all Christ which keeps us going. I am a bit confused.

Steaver, do you think that "an abiding, obedient faith in Jesus as Lord" is unnecessary, and that a temporary, disobedient, faith that doesn't lead one to follow is all one needs?

I believe that the scriptures teach that "an abiding, obedient faith in Jesus as Lord" is an attribute of being regenerated by the Holy Ghost. Not something we do out of want but rather out of love. Because He first loved us. It comes naturally as we grow from a babe in Christ. Some grow slower than others. We are new creatures and therfore we naturally grow in a new way, the way of Christ.

"a temporary, disobedient, faith that doesn't lead one to follow" is a false unregenerated faith. It will not save. This person was never born again. ( 1 John 2:19 )

God Bless!

 

[MIZ83]

Steaver writes:

I know about the warnings. The question is, are they warnings about losing one's salvation or are they warnings about wasting your new life in Christ or maybe warnings about never truly receiving Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior but remaining in unbelief?

Let’s examine the Hebrews 10 passage, in particular, and see which option listed above fits the passage.

NAS Hebrews 10:23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful; 24 and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, 25 not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more, as you see the day drawing near. 26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain terrifying expectation of judgment, and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay." And again, "The Lord will judge His people." 31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Is the Hebrew writer talking about those who never became Christians, remaining in unbelief?

1) Those in question had received the knowledge of the truth. (vs. 26)

2) Those in question had been sanctified by the blood of the covenant. (vs. 29)

3) Those in question could be warned with the admonition that “The Lord will judge His people.”

First, it is hard to imagine an unbeliever being described as having “received the knowledge of the truth”. The last two items are conclusive, however. Can one, by any stretch of the imagination, consider as “unregenerate” those who had been sanctified by the blood of the covenant? When the blood of the covenant sets you apart, you are saved, Steaver. Finally, those in question are described as the Lord’s people. So, yes, this warning is addressed to Christians.

But you appeal to verse 39:

Here again are warnings against those who play church. The writer goes on to say in verse 39, "But we (True believers) are not of them (unregenerated) who draw back unto perdition; but of them (True believers) that believe to the saving of the soul".

But, again, the warning is not to unregenerate people, but to those who had been sanctified by the blood of the covenant. It refers to the Lord’s people. While the Hebrew writer might have been convinced that his recipients were not of those who draw back to perdition, nonetheless, it is obvious that some do. Furthermore, it was conceivable that some of them might, thus the warning.

Furthermore, it is obvious that this passage is talking about salvation, and not just “wasting one’s new life in Christ.” For those that go on sinning willfully, “there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins.” How can one be saved without a sacrifice for sins? Can one go on sinning willfully without the benefit of the blood of Jesus, yet be saved? And verse 39, as you pointed out, refers to perdition, or destruction.

So to maintain that:

Hebrews is a huge warning against neglecting your new life or never truly believing at all and turning away.

…requires closing your eyes to what is said about the people under consideration in Hebrews 10. It is clear that those addressed were Christians, and it is clear that their salvation is at issue. The same thing is clear in Hebrews 6. Padredurand demonstrated earlier that Hebrews 6, also, has Christians under consideration.

I will write more, as time permits, in the coming days.

Blessings,

Bob

 

[I Am Blessed 24]

Originally posted by Ps104_33:
And what would this cost me? I am just a poor man. Do they take Master Card?

I was raised in a RC church and I can remember, very vividly, crying myself to sleep as a little girl. Why?

Because I was afraid I would die, be sent to purgatory, and have to stay there forever because we were too poor for anyone to pay for a 'mass' for me so I could eventually get to Heaven!?!

Now that I am a Baptist, I have the assurance of knowing I will be in Heaven when I die.

I know poor widows who are spending their SS on "praying their dead husbands" out of purgatory and have been doing it for YEARS! It's sad...

NOWHERE in scripture are we told to pray for (or to) the dead. Period!

§ue (OSAS)

 

[TP]

Greetings,

You said: Because I was afraid I would die, be sent to purgatory, and have to stay there forever because we were too poor for anyone to pay for a 'mass' for me so I could eventually get to Heaven!?!

Response: You must have had Horrible teachers when you were young and catholic, teaching you all those things which are not true about catholic teaching. Nobody ever has to stay in purgatory. Once a person is going to heaven, then they are going to heaven. Purgatory is the last stop of sanctification before heaven. ONce you are there you are going to heaven. You had very ignorant teachers.

peace

 

[steaver]

So to maintain that:


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hebrews is a huge warning against neglecting your new life or never truly believing at all and turning away.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

…requires closing your eyes to what is said about the people under consideration in Hebrews 10. It is clear that those addressed were Christians, and it is clear that their salvation is at issue. The same thing is clear in Hebrews 6. Padredurand demonstrated earlier that Hebrews 6, also, has Christians under consideration.

"It is clear that those addressed were Christians,"

So you conclude that the writer of Hebrews and the writers of all the other letters to Christians had insight to the hearts of all their members? They new for certain there wasn't any false converts tagging along? Even the eleven disciples had no idea who was the false one when Jesus told them that there was a devil among them!

Well Bob, if this is the position you take then I guess you have yourself some huge contradiction problems in the scriptures you read. I have given an alternative view of the passages brought forth which even if you do not agree with the view it is still a viable option.

Can you give me a viable option to the scripture I quoted from 1 Thess 5:23-24 where it claims what Jesus "will do", that is sanctify wholly and preserve blameless?

Here is another one, please explain to me that it could mean something other than what it appears to say....

"But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst ; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life ." (John 4:14)

I see "never thirst" and "shall be everlasting life".

Now explain how something everlasting can cease to exist!

Do you have eternal life Bob, or has God given you some other type of life?

God Bless!

 

[TP]

Greetings,

You said: NOWHERE in scripture are we told to pray for (or to) the dead.

Response: Actually, in the Book of maccabees it says to pray for the dead. However, you do not believe in the same canon of scripture. Luther changed scripture because he didn't like that passage. But that is a different discussion.

peace

 

[TP]

Greetings,

You said: If Grandma's release from this torment is dependant on the prayers of those still here on earth, what if we stopped one or two masses too soon? wouldnt that be tragic?
What if Uncle Francis has been out of purgatory for 50 years already and his family is still saying masses for him?


Response: Your understanding of purgatory is incorrect. At Judgement a person is going either to heaven or hell. If a person is going to heaven, they may have the final sanctification. Nobody is EVER trapped in purgatory for eternity. Your "what if they were one or two masses short" example makes no sense.

peace

 

[TP]

Greetings,

You said: And what would this cost me? I am just a poor man. Do they take MasterCard?

Response: Don't you support your church through tithing? All the Non-denom church shake down their parishioners quite a bit. There is one church that looks at w-2s and tells people how much they need to tithes. That is ridiculous.

peace

 

[steaver]

HI TP,

Do you have eternal life? 1 John tells us we can know.

God bless!

 

[TP]

Greetings,

You asked: Do you have eternal life? 1 John tells us we can know.

Response: Could you give the exact verse from 1 Jn. However, I do believe I am in the state of Grace at this moment, and I trust the mercy of God and the Grace he gives me through his Son Jesus christ. However, My salvation in the end is ALWAYS up to God. I will trust in his love and his promises, and I live in the Hope that he has given me through his Son Jesus Christ and the gift of the Spirit. However, I will not make presumptions of God, or try to force him to save me by my beliefs. In the End, it is all about our hope in a loving God. I will, in the end, be assured of my salvation when Jesus looks at me says: Well done good and faithful servant.

peace

 

[DHK]

1 John 5:11-13 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
--The record is that which John has just written in his epistle. It is the inspired Word of God. He says that God has given us eternal life. Notice, that he does not say that God WILL give us eternal, but HAS given eternal life. It is a possession that every born again again believer has. This life is in his son. I have the Son. I have eternal life. This one thing I know.

12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
--This verse is very simple to comprehend. There is no need of falling back on Catholic teaching here. Either you have the Son of God or you don't. There is no purgatory, no in between state, no sitting on the fence. Do you have the Son. If you don't, you don't have eternal life. If you do, you do have eternal life. I trusted Jesus Christ as my Saviour some years ago. He, by the power of His Holy Spirit came and dwelt within me. I have the Son. I know that I have eternal life. Do you?

13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
--To those that believe on the name of the Son of God, John writes they may KNOW that they have eternal life. It is not hope so, guess so, will see at the judgement day, etc. It is "know so." I know that I have eternal just as surely as if had already been there. I know so. Why? Because I have believed on the name of the Son of God. God doesn't lie. His Word is true.
DHK

 

[steaver]

Thanks DHK! Very clear, hope to hear from TP soon on it.

In the End, it is all about our hope in a loving God.

I am afraid that is not the End. In the End it will depend on whether or not you are found to be IN Jesus Christ and He IN you. The Spirit within the born again is what produces true hope and assurance. To this day the unbelieving Jews are "hoping in a loving God" to save them, the very God we worship, but this hope is no hope at all because they have rejected the only salvation offered IN Jesus Christ.

God Bless!