Servants of Mary

Thanks Thessalonian for your input.

Yes, Ray did you see the list of parishes with all the names, praising Christ the King?

Here is an article on the "brothers and sister" of Jesus. It is very good article and explains it much better than I ever could.

http://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/JESBRS.TXT


As far as the ex-Cathedras, they defined what the Church believes about her. Here is some excerpts about these doctrines from the Catechism:

966. "'Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords and conqueror of sin and death.'[LG 59; cf. Pius XII, Munificentissimus Deus (1950): DS 3903; cf. Rev 19:16.] The ASSUMPTION of the Blessed Virgin is a singular participation in her Son's Resurrection and an anticipation of the resurrection of other Christians:
In giving birth you kept your virginity; in your Dormition you did not leave the world, O Mother of God, but were joined to the source of Life. You conceived the living God and, by your prayers, will deliver our souls from death.[Byzantine Liturgy, Troparion, Feast of the Dormition, August 15th.]"

491. "Through the centuries the Church has become ever more aware that Mary, 'full of grace' through God,[Lk 1:28 .] was redeemed from the moment of her CONCEPTION. That is what the dogma of the IMMACULATE CONCEPTION confesses, as Pope Pius IX proclaimed in 1854:
The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her CONCEPTION, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Saviour of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin.[Pius IX, Ineffabilis Deus (1854): DS 2803.]"

2853. "Victory over the 'prince of this world'[Jn 14:30 .] was won once for all at the Hour when Jesus freely gave himself up to death to give us his life. This is the judgment of this world, and the prince of this world is 'cast out.'[Jn 12:31 ; Rev 12:10.] 'He pursued the woman'[Rev 12:13-16.] but had no hold on her: the new Eve, 'full of grace' of the Holy Spirit, is preserved from sin and the corruption of death (the IMMACULATE CONCEPTION and the Assumption of the Most Holy Mother of God, Mary, ever virgin). 'Then the dragon was angry with the woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring.'[Rev 12:17.] Therefore the Spirit and the Church pray: 'Come, Lord Jesus,'[Rev 22:17,20.] since his coming will deliver us from the Evil One."

499. "The deepening of faith in the virginal motherhood led the Church to confess MARY's real and perpetual VIRGINITY even in the act of giving birth to the Son of God made man.[Cf. DS 291; 294; 427; 442; 503; 571; 1880.] In fact, Christ's birth 'did not diminish his mother's virginal integrity but sanctified it.'[LG 57.] And so the liturgy of the Church celebrates MARY as Aeiparthenos, the 'Ever-virgin'.[Cf. LG 52.]"

503. "MARY's VIRGINITY manifests God's absolute initiative in the Incarnation. Jesus has only God as Father. 'He was never estranged from the Father because of the human nature which he assumed. . . He is naturally Son of the Father as to his divinity and naturally son of his mother as to his humanity, but properly Son of the Father in both natures.'[Council of Friuli (796): DS 619; cf. Lk 2:48-49.]"


506. "MARY is a virgin because her VIRGINITY is the sign of her faith 'unadulterated by any doubt', and of her undivided gift of herself to God's will.[LG 63; cf. l Cor 7:34-35.] It is her faith that enables her to become the mother of the Saviour: 'MARY is more blessed because she embraces faith in Christ than because she conceives the flesh of Christ.'[St. Augustine, De virg. 3: PL 40, 398.]"

723. "In MARY, the Holy Spirit fulfills the plan of the Father's loving goodness. With and through the Holy Spirit, the Virgin conceives and gives birth to the Son of God. By the Holy Spirit's power and her faith, her VIRGINITY became uniquely fruitful.[Cf. Lk 1:26-38 ; Rom 4:18-21 ; Gal 4:26-28 .] "

The thread Hail, Holy Queen going on now should be very good about explaining Catholic belief about Mary and her role in salvation history.


God Bless

P.S. What did you think of the names of the Parishes?

[ June 10, 2003, 01:54 PM: Message edited by: Kathryn ]

Thessalonian,

Your Scriptural backing for the Immaculate Conception, the Perpetual Virginity of Mary and the Assumption of Mary were fragile, in fact were in error. You only attempted to answer the Immaculate Conception idea and to give Scriptural backing for this single construction of the mind.

Mary is not the mercy-seat. If you value at all your Douay/Catholic Bible read more in Hebrews and you will see that the 'mercy-seat' was where the High Priest sprinkled the blood of the animal sacrifice. Hebrews 9:11 says that Christ, not Mary, has become our High Priest. Incidentally, women were not allowed to serve as priests in the Old Testament times and surely not Mary under the better covenant of grace. As you might know women were not allowed to even speak in the congregation, so Mary could never be our representative before God, as in sitting on the mercy-seat, or the Ark of the Covenant. In the next verse you will see that Christ is not only our Great High Priest, He sprinkles His own blood on the mercy-seat in Heaven. This redemption is not something that we can fall in and out of grace in our weakened human condition, but it is an ' . . . eternal redemption for us.' [vs.12] Christ takes away our sins, purges our conscience and empowers us by His Spirit to live for Jesus Christ as His ambassadors. [II Cor. 5:20]

One of the first sermons that I preached was "The Three Appears Of Hebrews Nine." Check it out. Point one was, I. He Appeared To Put Away Our Sins [Hebrews 9:26] II. He Appears In The Presence of God For Us [vs.24] This means that He is our Advocate and Savior Who prays for us. [I John 2:1; Hebrews 7:25] and lastly, III. He Will Appear The Second Time For Us [vs. 28] which means that Jesus will come back to the clouds for His glorious and redeemed church, if we have faith in Him and love Him. [I Thess. 4:17]

Jesus died on the Cross for our sins, He is praying for us in Heaven [Hebrews 7:25] and He will raise us from the grave when He comes for all Catholic and Protestant Christians. I say it respectfully, before God, but Mary does not have any of these spiritual credentials.

I think you were trying to tell me that Mary is the ark of the New Covenant.

If this were true the early Christians would have included the above idea in the Apostle's Creed or the Nicene Creed. They did not. But the Apostle's Creed does say, that He ' . . . was crucified, died and was buried. He descended into Hell. The third day He rose from the dead. He ascended into Heaven, and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty. Today, Christ's mercy seat is in Heaven where He sits on His glorious throne. It may be symbolized in your churches and ours as being beneath and under the cheribs extended wings, but in fact Christ is our mercy-seat. He alone, atoned for your sins and mine. [I John 2:2a] We must come to Him in contrition, repentance and faith. [Romans 5:1] The Apostle Paul has said, 'Therefore, being justified by faith we have peace through our Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus makes us right with God because He and His seat of authority are the mercy-seat.

Regards,

Ray

Kathryn,

It is not just the fact that here and there may be an occasional church that uses the name Christ, but predominantly in our area Mary is emphasized on the churches official name. This would not happen if Christ was preached as the only Mediator in our salvation. [I Timothy 2:5; I John 2:1]

The Immaculate Conception, the Perpetual Virginity of Mary and the Assumption of Mary into Heaven elevates her before the people as having a very high place of spiritual significance.

Christ died for my sins and yours. If I don't get to Heaven through Him I will never make it there. John 3:16 says, For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish but have evrlasting life.

There is no other Advocate in Heaven for us. [I John 2:1] The Holy Spirit is our Comforter/Advocate in our hearts while we are here on earth, [John 14:16] and Jesus is our Advocate/Savior in Heaven, [I John 2:1] Who prays for us. [Hebrews 7:25] The same Greek word in John 14:16 {Comforter} is used in I John 2:1 meaning, Advocate, 'one who is called to our side' as in spiritual defense and care. The word is {Parakletos}

Ray:

It is not just the fact that here and there may be an occasional church that uses the name Christ, but predominantly in our area Mary is emphasized on the churches official name. This would not happen if Christ was preached as the only Mediator in our salvation. [I Timothy 2:5; I John 2:1]

Click to expand...

Ray: There are thousands and thousands of Catholic Churches. They can not all be named Christ the King Catholic Church. It would get real confusing. We have thousands of thousands of saints and names to chose from. Christ the King Catholic Church is not a better Church then Mary Immaculate because of the name. We honor the head Jesus Christ and the whole Body of Christ. When we honor any saint or Mary we are honoring the whole Body of Christ. The whole Body of Christ rejoices.

“whereas our more presentable members have no need of it. But God has so composed the body, giving more abundant honor to that member which lacked,” 1 Cor 12:24

“And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.” 1 Cor 12:26

You will note that every Catholic Church, even if it is called St. Patrick's Catholic Church or St. Francis of Assissi, or Mary Immaculate has a large crucifix inside and outside. This is because the Catholic Church preaches Christ crucified. Just as the Apostles did.

“For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom; but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness, but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.” 1 Cor 1:22-24

He is our Lord, Redeemer, and Savior. He is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.

God Bless

"Your Scriptural backing for the Immaculate Conception, the Perpetual Virginity of Mary and the Assumption of Mary were fragile, in fact were in error. You only attempted to answer the Immaculate Conception idea and to give Scriptural backing for this single construction of the mind."


Where did I say that I was supporting perpetual virginity and the assumption. Though they do flow from this idea of Mary as the Ark of the New Covenant. I believe I said down at the bottom (apparently you didn't read what I wrote) that I would get to the others as I had time.

Ah yes, I did. Here it is: "Perhaps if I have time later I will get in to the other doctrines you have questioned as invented by the Pope with "no biblical support". I assure you things are not as they seem."


"Mary is not the mercy-seat. If you value at all your Douay/Catholic Bible read more in Hebrews and you will see that the 'mercy-seat' was where the High Priest sprinkled the blood of the animal sacrifice."

I didn't say Mary is the mercy-seat. She is the Ark, the God-bearer. I also allow that Christ is the Ark of the covenant. The two ideas are no more contradictory than that we are the light of the world (Matt 5:14) while Christ is the light of the world (John 8:12). The foundation of the Church is prophets and apostles (eph 2:20) and Jesus is the foundation (1 Cor 3:11) or Peter is the Rock (matt 16:18) and Christ is the Rock. Are you noticing anything here. You should be.

" Hebrews 9:11 says that Christ, not Mary, has become our High Priest. Incidentally, women were not allowed to serve as priests in the Old Testament times and surely not Mary under the better covenant of grace."

Where did I say Mary was a priest.

" As you might know women were not allowed to even speak in the congregation, so Mary could never be our representative before God, as in sitting on the mercy-seat, or the Ark of the Covenant. In the next verse you will see that Christ is not only our Great High Priest, He sprinkles His own blood on the mercy-seat in Heaven. This redemption is not something that we can fall in and out of grace in our weakened human condition, but it is an ' . . . eternal redemption for us.' [vs.12] Christ takes away our sins, purges our conscience and empowers us by His Spirit to live for Jesus Christ as His ambassadors. [II Cor. 5:20]"

Amen to everything you said except that we cant loose our salvation. If you choose to skim as you did in my last post, read first and the last two in paritular. You can't fall from what you weren't in.

1 Corinthians 15:2
by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

Peter 3:17
You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness,

James 5:12
But above all, my brethren, do not swear, either by heaven or by earth or with any other oath; but your yes is to be yes, and your no, no, so that you may not fall under judgment.

Hebrews 6:6
and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

Hebrews 4:11
Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience.

1 Timothy 4:1
But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,

1 Timothy 3:6
and not a new convert, so that he will not become conceited and fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil.

1 Timothy 3:7
And he must have a good reputation with those outside the church, so that he will not fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

Galatians 5:4
You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have FALLEN FROM GRACE.

1 Corinthians 10:12
Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall.


Ezekiel 18:24
"But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die.




"Jesus died on the Cross for our sins, He is praying for us in Heaven [Hebrews 7:25] and He will raise us from the grave when He comes for all Catholic and Protestant Christians. "

Amen.

"I say it respectfully, before God, but Mary does not have any of these spiritual credentials."

No, Mary can't save us.


"I think you were trying to tell me that Mary is the ark of the New Covenant."

It ain't me. Blame Luke. Read the parrellels again. I await your explanation.

"If this were true the early Christians would have included the above idea in the Apostle's Creed or the Nicene Creed. They did not. "

Hmmmm, I don't see Once Saved Always Saved in the creed either. Nor do I see justification by faith alone.


"But the Apostle's Creed does say, that He ' . . . was crucified, died and was buried. He descended into Hell. The third day He rose from the dead. He ascended into Heaven, and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty. "

Yes, this is the Catholic view.

"Today, Christ's mercy seat is in Heaven where He sits on His glorious throne. It may be symbolized in your churches and ours as being beneath and under the cheribs extended wings, but in fact Christ is our mercy-seat. "

That's fine. My point was the Ark.

"He alone, atoned for your sins and mine. [I John 2:2a]."

Have I said otherwise?

"We must come to Him in contrition, repentance and faith. [Romans 5:1] "

Amen brother, preach it.

"The Apostle Paul has said, 'Therefore, being justified by faith we have peace through our Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus makes us right with God because He and His seat of authority are the mercy-seat."

Your bowling over a straw man you know. I never said anything against any of this.


I think there is little point in getting in to the Assumption (not assention as your original post implied) and perpetual virginity until you respond to the verses I quoted about falling from grace and answer what Luke is doing with the 4 parrellels I posted. I gave you scripture with very little commentary. I am including the hill country bit in as a parrellel as in both luke's gospel and 2 sam 6 it says they went to the hill country of Judah. 4 conicidences? Not if I were a betting man. There is something there that you need to look in to rather than reject because it came from a Catholic. Do you think that you know everything in the Bible such that if something you have never heard before comes along you can reject it out of hand, especially if it comes from a Catholic?

Blessings

[ June 11, 2003, 10:26 AM: Message edited by: thessalonian ]

Thessalonian,

I evaluate everything that comes before my eyes and heart because I appreciate new truth that the Lord has not yet shown me, whether from a Protestant, Catholic, of Jewish person.

I Cor. 15:2 should not take you off your feet because of the words, ' . . . unless you have believed in vain.' This does not mean the loss of salvation, but points to the fact that our Christian witness will have been destroyed by the Devil. This evil one always tempts us to compromise so our testimony for Christ and the church becomes non-existent anymore. John 14:16 assures us in Jesus' own words that He will live in our hearts, how long? Forever.

II Peter 3:17. The evil one tries to get us to fall away from our love of Jesus. Note: again, John 14:16. We may grieve or quench the Spirit but He never leaves a true Christian

James 5:12 The word, condemnation does not mean the condemnation of Hell, but merely to get ourselves in trouble with other people around us. Either say yes or no. Anything else will get us into trouble. In other words, be honest.

Hebrews 6:6 truly is a warning against backsliding away from Christ and our faith. The question is does the Lord give up on our eternal soul or does He take us home to Heaven early, to await the Judgment Seat of Christ, or as Catholics like to refer to as Purgatory. Your church merely mis-named His time for evaluating us which will be at His coming. [I Cor. 3:11-] Check a translation that you like and you will see that Jesus never abandons our souls. [I John 5:18]

Hebrews 4:11 Can Jesus deny this experience in our hearts once He has give this to us? The incorruptible seed is the Holy Spirit. [John 14:16]

I Tim. 3:6 & 7. Young Christian might fail tragically, but it is our ministry as stronger Christians to life them up again. One venial sin or one moral sin does not destroy our relationship to Jesus, because He loves us with an everlasting love. If you have children you know they get in trouble; God's children do also. [Hebrews 12:5-13]

I Timothy 4:1 Yes, not all Christians are steadfast in faith. We need to keep our faith and love toward Jesus at a 'white hot heat,' if you will.

Galatians 5:4 Paul is trying to tell Christian people that if they return to the Law as a means of keeping in good graces with the Lord, then they place themselves under a cumbersome yoke. Isn't it better to live under the knowledge of His grace and obey Him out of our love for Him? Trying to keep all the rules at all times causes us to fall short of our understanding of His matchless grace and love toward us.

I Corinthians 10:12 The word 'fall' in the Greek is the word, 'pesa,' meaning the idea of alighting, which means to come down from something. Unfortunately, each of us have been on one plain or level of spirituality and then when we were not alert to the evil ones plans we alighted or landed on a lesser plain of closeness to our Lord. The next verse tells us that He always makes a way of escape, but at times we like that favorite sin and fall short of His best plans for our lives.

Ezekiel 18:24 explains the inferior covenant of the Law. [Hebrews 8:7] Saints under the former covenant were saved, basicily, by their steadfastness and tenacity. This covenant since the Cross is established on better promises. He promises us everlasting life. [John 3:16; John 5:24; John 6:35; I John 5:11 & 13]

If you come to a clear understanding of I John 5:18, you can work backward and find out that we have perfect assurance of salvation in Jesus Christ. The Greek translator, Dr. Kenneth S. Wuest, says, 'But He who was born out of God maintains a watchful guardianship over him, {meaning us} and the Pernicious One does not lay hold on him. {meaning we Christians} "In These Last Days" Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co. Volume on II Peter, I, II, III John and Jude, page 196.

The word, toucheth, is the Greek word, {hapto} in the middle and passive voice, meaning to grasp or to lay hold on, in the sense of getting ahold on us to send us to Hell. This is impossible as noted in Roman 8:1. 'There is therefore, now no condemnation {meaning final judgment} to those who are in Christ.' {the rest of the verse in the KJV is not in the Greek text.

Blessings to you brother,

Ray

Carson writes:

Hi Brian,

If he is the ONE SON and the one mediator then even as His brothers we can't infringe on his rights.

Ah, but only and only Jesus has the right to divine sonship.

Jesus shares his rights because we are incorporated into his life through participation.

We distinguish in order to unite. We distinguish Christ from Christians in order to unite Christ and his Christians. We are Christians only insofar as we share in the rights, privileges, and status of the only Christ.

Hi Carson, we benefit from what Jesus did. He took on Sin and defeated it alone. We do not share in that fight. The fight is over and we pray for others to accept the gift offered. I do not participate in the creation of the gift, my part may be to tell people that there is a gift.

Sorry for the delayed response


Thess. Writes:

Do you agree with my taking inference from Luke 22 that that at 12 of the thrones are occupied by Apostles? If so then why can't we take inference from the verses that we see as stating that Mary is Queen of Heaven because the woman in Rev 12 has a crown, she is/was in heaven and obviously is/was greatly honored, perhaps even with a throne.

Revelation 12:1
A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars;

Crown of stars, standing on the moon, clothed with the sun. Hard to look at a person in such imagery. Think about those words, especially the 12 stars when there were 12 tribes of Isreal. It would be a big stretch to picture a real woman standing on the moon. The point that you made about it being a passage with dual meaning is at least a reasonable argument as there are other verses like that. However, it seems a stretch in this case. Thanks for the post, sorry I didn’t get back to you until now.

In Christ,
Brian

Some day - in the future the saints will sit on thrones (Rev 20:3-4) this is "after" the Rev 19 visible second coming of Christ and it starts the 1000 year period (that lasts 1000 years amazingly enough).

This is not happening now - but it will happen when you see the catastrophic global events of Rev 19.

In 1 Tim 2:5 WE are told "There is ONE God AND ONE Mediator BETWEEN God and MAN".

We are not told "Because Christ is God - you are also God".

Elsewhere we ARE told "We are FELLOW HEIRS with Christ" but when speaking to US about Christ's role as "Mediator" we are told explicitly that although we are fellow HEIRs - yet when it comes to Mediation BETWEEN God and MAN - Christ ALONE is the ONE Mediator - JUST as in fact there is only ONE God.

In Christ,

Bob

Bob Ryan,

You offered a very excellent summary. Your view is true to the Scripture.

Ray, Brian,

Just to let you know I appreciate your replies. I will be getting back to them soon. Thanks for the respectful tone.

Blessings

Ray:

"I evaluate everything that comes before my eyes and heart because I appreciate new truth that the Lord has not yet shown me, whether from a Protestant, Catholic, of Jewish person."

Great. Keep studying 2 Sam 6 and Luke 1. I won't try to rush the Holy Spirit.

"I Cor. 15:2 should not take you off your feet because of the words, ' . . . unless you have believed in vain.' This does not mean the loss of salvation, but points to the fact that our Christian witness will have been destroyed by the Devil. This evil one always tempts us to compromise so our testimony for Christ and the church becomes non-existent anymore. John 14:16 assures us in Jesus' own words that He will live in our hearts, how long? Forever."

Heard it before. It doesn't cut it.

Perhaps cut off is a bit more clear than fall for you.

John 15:6 has pretty much the same theme:

John 15:6
If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

To remain in him we have to have been in him. Seems like fire is pretty clearly a reference to damnation.

Romans 11:22
Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

Note that we have to continue in his kindness. It is there for us but we can turn away! Free will it is called Ray. God is not a rapist and will not force us to stay with him.

Same idea. Much more difficult to equivocate.


"James 5:12 The word, condemnation does not mean the condemnation of Hell, but merely to get ourselves in trouble with other people around us. Either say yes or no. Anything else will get us into trouble. In other words, be honest."

Perhaps you have some greek that goes along with that rather than me just taking the word of a man for it. Seems pretty clear to me.


"Hebrews 6:6 truly is a warning against backsliding away from Christ and our faith. The question is does the Lord give up on our eternal soul or does He take us home to Heaven early, to await the Judgment Seat of Christ, or as Catholics like to refer to as Purgatory. Your church merely mis-named His time for evaluating us which will be at His coming. [I Cor. 3:11-] Check a translation that you like and you will see that Jesus never abandons our souls. [I John 5:18]"

Got a verse below you might want to check out. Ray, I will say one thing here. Not meant to be rude but when it comes to Catholicism, your no expert. You might want to just listen for a while before you speak. Your sounding kind of foolish so far on the board in that regard. Your not the first Protestant who has tried to tell me what I believe and that they know Catholicism better than I. That's okay, don't feel bad.

Funny you should bring up 1 John 5:18 as evidence for not loosing salvation. In the paragraph before he says "If anyone sees his BROTHER sinning, if the sin is not deadly, he should pray to God , adn he will give him life. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly.".

Apparently there are some who do sin in a deadly fashion. I am quite certain deadly here is with regard to the soul (i.e. the soul dies, falls from Grace. Your verse tells us that when one is not sinning he is begotten of God. We know from Romans 8 that the devil cannot touch him if he chooses not to sin. But as I said a few days ago, Romans 8 does not say we cannot sin in a deadly fashion. In fact Romans 8 interestingly does not mention sin. Sin is of personal responsibility. If we sin while in the grace of God we have an advocate. From that verse in John's letters it is quite apparent we can sin. That verse says we must turn to Jesus when we sin. It does not say it is not possible for us to sin as you imply that this verse does.

1 John 2:1
My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;

Note, it apparently is quite possible for us to sin.

1 John 5:18
We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.

John above says we must not sin. Here he says that if we are sinning we are not born of God. So it is apparent that we can. It is apparent that when we are in sin we are not born of God. I.e. in grace.. It is apparent from 1 John 2:1, that we must turn to Christ when we sin or we are in a big pile of dung. Romans 8 only says that when we are in Christ noone has power over us.
Doesn't say we can't sin. It doesn't meantion siin.

There are many more verses I could quote but one in paricular I think puts this matter of OSAS to rest. It is in Luke 12. Read it in light of the verse I quoted you in EZ 18:24 that you said:

Ezekiel 18:24 explains the inferior covenant of the Law. [Hebrews 8:7] Saints under the former covenant were saved, basicily, by their steadfastness and tenacity. This covenant since the Cross is established on better promises. He promises us everlasting life. [John 3:16; John 5:24; John 6:35; I John 5:11 & 13]


"The Lord answered, "Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom the master puts in charge of his servants to give them their food allowance at the proper time? 43It will be good for that servant whom the master finds doing so when he returns. 44I tell you the truth, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 45But suppose THE SERVANT says to himself, 'My master is taking a long time in coming,' and he then begins to beat the menservants and maidservants and to eat and drink and get drunk. 46The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place WITH THE UNBELIEVERS. "

It is quite apparent that this verse is speaking of the same servant throughout. The servant is doing well at first and if the master comes during that time, he is in good shape eternally speaking. But if is not STEADFAST as you claim was neccessary in the Old but not in the New Testament he will be treated how? "WITH THE UNBELIEVERS." That ain't good. There are many more verses I could go in to but for lack of time. God does not force us to stay with him. The promise is to those who keep their eyes fixed on him. Perseverence is a common word in the New Testament. The word itself implies that it is possible that we won't persevere, that it won't be easy and that we aren't gauranteed anything but his grace. If we fall it will be our responsibility because we didn't keep our eyes fixed on him and turn to him in our sins.


You teach a serious error Ray. Once Saved, Always Saved is a seriously flawed and dangerous dogma.

God bless

[ June 13, 2003, 10:19 AM: Message edited by: thessalonian ]

thessalonian,

You spoke about a reference in John. I took it to mean I John 2:1. No minister or Roman Catholic priest is going to give anyone a license to sin. I agree that if or when we sin we must immediately confess our sin to the Lord God. This, however, does not mean that our Lord does not Advocate for us in our weakness. No one gets away with sin and if a Christian persists in sinning God chastens them. [Hebrews 12] The author of Hebrews says that every son and daughter in the faith receives this discipline. If one venial or mortal sin cut us off from grace, He could not still call us sons. [Hebrews 12:7b] Think it though! I was where you are in your thinking an maturity about forty-four years ago.

While Augustine taught what Five Point Calvinists believe today; present day Roman Catholics are extremely Arminian as to their theological perceptions. The Church of the Nazarene and Catholics think that a Christian can be in and out of grace, at any moment. There is little to no assurance of salvation for them.

I John 3:9 got me on the right track some forty years ago. The Christian can fall into sin, but he or she does not make a practice, {poieo or poyeho} of sinning. The Geek tense as I remember it is in the present active tense meaning that when a sinner becomes a true Christian at some point in time, he does not continue to sin or serve the Devil. The difference between a sinner and a Christian is that the latter does not enjoy it anymore.

I John 5:18 and John 10:27-30 allows for the perfect security of any true child of God.

You spoke about I John 5:16 is the sin unto physical death as is I Corinthians 11:30b. Please, note that the term 'sleep' always speaks of a Christian's physical death. Do you remember Lazarus and how his death was phrased?

Those at the Communion/Eucharist were chastened by God. Why? So they would ' . . . not be
condemned with the world.' This means that God disciplined them so they would not go to Hell along with the rest of sinners. Some of these people at the Table of the Lord were taken home to Heaven before they had the chance to ask for confession and absolution. Notice the degrees of God's discipline. First, weakness of body, secondly, sickness, and lastly, the most severe judgment of God was their death/sleep. These who died were placed in the grave awaiting their bodily resurrect as we probably will unless Jesus comes for us. At this point in time these Corinthian backsliders will stand before God at His Judgment Seat of Christ. They entered Heaven at their death, but will be evaluated for their errors and life at this future judgment that you and I will also experience in the future.

This is enough to get your mind working correctly.

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
thessalonian,

You spoke about a reference in John. I took it to mean I John 2:1. No minister or Roman Catholic priest is going to give anyone a license to sin. I agree that if or when we sin we must immediately confess our sin to the Lord God. This, however, does not mean that our Lord does not Advocate for us in our weakness. No one gets away with sin and if a Christian persists in sinning God chastens them. [Hebrews 12] The author of Hebrews says that every son and daughter in the faith receives this discipline. If one venial or mortal sin cut us off from grace, He could not still call us sons. [Hebrews 12:7b] Think it though! I was where you are in your thinking an maturity about forty-four years ago.

While Augustine taught what Five Point Calvinists believe today; present day Roman Catholics are extremely Arminian as to their theological perceptions. The Church of the Nazarene and Catholics think that a Christian can be in and out of grace, at any moment. There is little to no assurance of salvation for them.

I John 3:9 got me on the right track some forty years ago. The Christian can fall into sin, but he or she does not make a practice, {poieo or poyeho} of sinning. The Geek tense as I remember it is in the present active tense meaning that when a sinner becomes a true Christian at some point in time, he does not continue to sin or serve the Devil. The difference between a sinner and a Christian is that the latter does not enjoy it anymore.

I John 5:18 and John 10:27-30 allows for the perfect security of any true child of God.

You spoke about I John 5:16 is the sin unto physical death as is I Corinthians 11:30b. Please, note that the term 'sleep' always speaks of a Christian's physical death. Do you remember Lazarus and how his death was phrased?

Those at the Communion/Eucharist were chastened by God. Why? So they would ' . . . not be
condemned with the world.' This means that God disciplined them so they would not go to Hell along with the rest of sinners. Some of these people at the Table of the Lord were taken home to Heaven before they had the chance to ask for confession and absolution. Notice the degrees of God's discipline. First, weakness of body, secondly, sickness, and lastly, the most severe judgment of God was their death/sleep. These who died were placed in the grave awaiting their bodily resurrect as we probably will unless Jesus comes for us. At this point in time these Corinthian backsliders will stand before God at His Judgment Seat of Christ. They entered Heaven at their death, but will be evaluated for their errors and life at this future judgment that you and I will also experience in the future.

This is enough to get your mind working correctly.

Click to expand...

You think I have not discussed this and thought about it enough that one silly post by you is going to change my mind. Cut off means what it says ray. Fall means fall. I will say more about this later. With regard to Augustine, if your talking about predestination then once again you don't have a clue about Catholicism. It does teach predestination. Where we are at odds is whether one has absolute assurance of salvatoin. The Catholic Church teaches that you can have moral assurance (i.e. I know of know sin on my soul that has cut me off from God, outside the chance that in my blindness I may be decieving myself (as those protestants who would be decieving themselves with regard to thinking they are saved when they are really not because they are not true Christians)). Absolute assurance is beyond our knowledge and requires perseverence. That is what those verses are speaking of that I sent you. We can know that we are saved in the present tense. We can know that if we keep our eyes on him (Heb 12) we will be saved. But we also know that we have free will to turn away. Forced love is not love Ray. Where did you get the idea that the Catholic Church says that a veniel sin cuts you off? The Catholic Church is not Armenian Ray. Sorry.

Ray,

Question for ya. If I reject OSAS I am going to heaven? Jesus Christ is my Lord and savior so am I okay?

Ray,

Does this sound like Arminianism?

2: CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 2012 (367 bytes ) preview document matches
God works for good with those who love him . For those whom he fore knew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be ...
URL: http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/2012.htm 95%


3: CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 2782 (609 bytes ) preview document matches
from the head to the members, he makes us other "Christs." God, indeed, who has predestined us to adoption as his sons, has conformed us to the glorious Body of Christ. ...
URL: http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/2782.htm

Hi Brian,

You wrote, "Hi Carson, we benefit from what Jesus did. He took on Sin and defeated it alone. We do not share in that fight."

If we don't share in Christ's sufferings, then why does Paul say, "Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church"?

Of course, Paul didn't win our salvation on the Cross. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that Paul's sufferings, united to the perfect sufferings of Christ, have value for the Church.

United to Christ, we are able to pray to "our Father", we are able to suffer redemptively, and we are able to share in God's own nature, thus becoming sons of God in the only Son of God.

Unless one understands participation, they've missed the power and truth of Christianity.

The witness and ministry of Paul having value for the church is very different from "When I go to Purgatory Paul's sufferings will get me out".

Surely we can all agree.

In Christ,

Bob

Ray said --
You offered a very excellent summary. Your view is true to the Scripture.

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Thank you Ray. I appreciate your spirit and your devotion to the word. Keep up the good work.

In Christ,

Bob

Thess said -
We can know that we are saved in the present tense. We can know that if we keep our eyes on him (Heb 12) we will be saved. But we also know that we have free will to turn away. Forced love is not love Ray. Where did you get the idea that the Catholic Church says that a veniel sin cuts you off? The Catholic Church is not Armenian Ray. Sorry.

Click to expand...

Actually - if Ray is saying that the Catholic church is Arminian - he is correct in the doctrinal sense that the Catholic church teaches free will, it teaches that the atonement of Christ paid for the sins of the world and it teaches that one can fall from grace.

Thess - you don't seem to know what the doctrinal statement for the Arminian position is.

Not all Arminians reject OSAS - however many Calvinists argue (as do I) that rejecting OSAS is the most 'consistent' form of Arminianism - and hence - I am an Arminian that does not accept OSAS.

In Christ,

Bob

Originally posted by BobRyan:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Thess said -
We can know that we are saved in the present tense. We can know that if we keep our eyes on him (Heb 12) we will be saved. But we also know that we have free will to turn away. Forced love is not love Ray. Where did you get the idea that the Catholic Church says that a veniel sin cuts you off? The Catholic Church is not Armenian Ray. Sorry.

Click to expand...

Actually - if Ray is saying that the Catholic church is Arminian - he is correct in the doctrinal sense that the Catholic church teaches free will, it teaches that the atonement of Christ paid for the sins of the world and it teaches that one can fall from grace.

Thess - you don't seem to know what the doctrinal statement for the Arminian position is.

Not all Arminians reject OSAS - however many Calvinists argue (as do I) that rejecting OSAS is the most 'consistent' form of Arminianism - and hence - I am an Arminian that does not accept OSAS.

In Christ,

Bob </font>[/QUOTE]Though he was unclear about it his point apparently was predestination as that is the area where Augustine and Calvinsts are close to the same view. That I believe was his point and that was the part of Arminianism that I refuted. I said nothing about the Arminian postition on OSAS as you alleged. Any comments on that issue were directed at Rays and my discussion above which you apparently haven't followed but what to point fingers at me about. As far as falling from grace Ray (and you) have done alot of handwaving in saying that cut off doesn't really mean cut off, fall doesn't really mean fall and God was just kidding about the servant in Luke 12. Thanks for stopping by Bob.

Blessings to you and yours.