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Servants of Mary
- Thread starter Rakka Rage
- Start date
Ray Berrian
New Member
GraceSaves:
Someone said, 'Bob here claims that Catholics deify Mary.'
Ray is saying, 'How could we come to the conclusion that Jesus has preeminence in your churches?
In our area I see church names like: Immaculate Conception Church, Holy Rosary Church, St. Madaline Sofie Church, St. Peter's Church, Assumption Church, {meaning Mary was taken to Heaven via ascension} Our Lady of Perpetual Help, St. Ann's Church {named after Mary's mother} St. Nicholas Church, Our Lady Help of Christians, Our Lady of Lebanon Church, Saint Mary's Church, and the list goes on in your city.
We never see Roman Catholic Churches with names like The Church of Jesus Christ Roman Catholic Church or Christ Roman Catholic Church.
It is rather easy for the rest of us Christians to think that Mary has the supremacy in your ecclesiastical system.' (end quote)
Someone said, 'Bob here claims that Catholics deify Mary.'
Ray is saying, 'How could we come to the conclusion that Jesus has preeminence in your churches?
In our area I see church names like: Immaculate Conception Church, Holy Rosary Church, St. Madaline Sofie Church, St. Peter's Church, Assumption Church, {meaning Mary was taken to Heaven via ascension} Our Lady of Perpetual Help, St. Ann's Church {named after Mary's mother} St. Nicholas Church, Our Lady Help of Christians, Our Lady of Lebanon Church, Saint Mary's Church, and the list goes on in your city.
We never see Roman Catholic Churches with names like The Church of Jesus Christ Roman Catholic Church or Christ Roman Catholic Church.
It is rather easy for the rest of us Christians to think that Mary has the supremacy in your ecclesiastical system.' (end quote)
thessalonian
New Member
Sorry, got posted twice, somehow
[ June 09, 2003, 02:51 PM: Message edited by: thessalonian ]
[ June 09, 2003, 02:51 PM: Message edited by: thessalonian ]
thessalonian
New Member
Ray:
"We never see Roman Catholic Churches with names like The Church of Jesus Christ Roman Catholic Church or Christ Roman Catholic Church. "
Hey ray, do me a favor. God to google.com and put in the following "Christ the King Catholic Church" or "Our Savior Catholic Church" or "Christ Our Redeemer CAtholic Church" with quotes. See how many hits you get.
Here is one of the many for you:
http://www.christtheking.org/
Now do me another favor in type in something like
"calvin baptist" or "calvin Christian".
Methinks you should be careful when you use words like "never" and "absolutely".
Further, I think the important thing is the content of the worship rather than the name on the door. The Mass is the most Christ Centered/God centered form of worship on the face of the planet. Bar none. We honor the saints because they honored him. If it were a form of worship to put a Saints name on a Church then it would certainly be a greater form of worship to put a man's name on a Bible. (KJV or Tyndale, etc.). Can't think of any Catholic Bibles with a man's name in the Title on the cover. Though I suppose it wouldn't be overyly problematic. There are St. Mark and St. John's Baptist Churches, St. Paul Christian Chruch, various St. Peter Churches, etc. etc.
"We never see Roman Catholic Churches with names like The Church of Jesus Christ Roman Catholic Church or Christ Roman Catholic Church. "
Hey ray, do me a favor. God to google.com and put in the following "Christ the King Catholic Church" or "Our Savior Catholic Church" or "Christ Our Redeemer CAtholic Church" with quotes. See how many hits you get.
Here is one of the many for you:
http://www.christtheking.org/
Now do me another favor in type in something like
"calvin baptist" or "calvin Christian".
Methinks you should be careful when you use words like "never" and "absolutely".
Further, I think the important thing is the content of the worship rather than the name on the door. The Mass is the most Christ Centered/God centered form of worship on the face of the planet. Bar none. We honor the saints because they honored him. If it were a form of worship to put a Saints name on a Church then it would certainly be a greater form of worship to put a man's name on a Bible. (KJV or Tyndale, etc.). Can't think of any Catholic Bibles with a man's name in the Title on the cover. Though I suppose it wouldn't be overyly problematic. There are St. Mark and St. John's Baptist Churches, St. Paul Christian Chruch, various St. Peter Churches, etc. etc.
thessalonian
New Member
More common names of Catholic Churches:
Holy Savior Catholic Church
Risen Savior " "
Divine Savior " "
Our Savior " "
Christ Our Savior " "
Holy Name of Jesus " "
Sacred Heart of Jesus " "
Heart of Jesus " "
Sacred Heart " "
I am sure there are many more. Perhaps I will have time later to enumerate all the non-catholic Christian Churches with Saint's names in them from a wide variety of denominations. The internet is a wonderful tool.
Blessings Ray.
By the way, none of the names I have mentioned, catholic or none Catholic are single occurances. I know 3 sacred heart Churches in my area alone.
Holy Savior Catholic Church
Risen Savior " "
Divine Savior " "
Our Savior " "
Christ Our Savior " "
Holy Name of Jesus " "
Sacred Heart of Jesus " "
Heart of Jesus " "
Sacred Heart " "
I am sure there are many more. Perhaps I will have time later to enumerate all the non-catholic Christian Churches with Saint's names in them from a wide variety of denominations. The internet is a wonderful tool.
Blessings Ray.
By the way, none of the names I have mentioned, catholic or none Catholic are single occurances. I know 3 sacred heart Churches in my area alone.
Thanks, Thessalonian:
Here are some more:
Christ the King Catholic Church
742 Arlington Road North, Jacksonville, FL 32211
(904) 724-0080
Christ the King Catholic Church
16000 Southwest 112th Avenue, Miami, FL 33157
(305) 235-0293
Christ the King Catholic Church
624 North Rossmore Avenue, Los Angeles, CA 90004
(323) 465-7605
Christ the King Catholic Church
742 Arlington Road North, Jacksonville, FL 32211
(904) 724-0080
Christ the King Catholic Church
14045 North Us Highway 301, Citra, FL 32113
(352) 595-5605
Christ the King Roman Catholic Church
14539 Farmers Boulevard, Jamaica, NY 11434
(718) 949-3255
Catholic Church of Christ the King
110 East Lincoln Street, Greenup, IL 62428
(217) 923-3523
Christ the King Catholic Church
1501 South Main Street, Lombard, IL 60148
(630) 629-1717
The lists could go on and on, if needed.
[ June 09, 2003, 03:59 PM: Message edited by: Kathryn ]
Here are some more:
Christ the King Catholic Church
742 Arlington Road North, Jacksonville, FL 32211
(904) 724-0080
Christ the King Catholic Church
16000 Southwest 112th Avenue, Miami, FL 33157
(305) 235-0293
Christ the King Catholic Church
624 North Rossmore Avenue, Los Angeles, CA 90004
(323) 465-7605
Christ the King Catholic Church
742 Arlington Road North, Jacksonville, FL 32211
(904) 724-0080
Christ the King Catholic Church
14045 North Us Highway 301, Citra, FL 32113
(352) 595-5605
Christ the King Roman Catholic Church
14539 Farmers Boulevard, Jamaica, NY 11434
(718) 949-3255
Catholic Church of Christ the King
110 East Lincoln Street, Greenup, IL 62428
(217) 923-3523
Christ the King Catholic Church
1501 South Main Street, Lombard, IL 60148
(630) 629-1717
The lists could go on and on, if needed.
[ June 09, 2003, 03:59 PM: Message edited by: Kathryn ]
Y
Yelsew
Guest
I have to agree with Ray on this church naming business. I just looked through 5 major phone books covering nearly 40% of the Greater Los Angeles County area. I found NOT ONE "Christ the King" Catholic Church. The approximately 130 Catholic churchs listed in those phone books all had names such as "Our Lady of the Rosary", "St. Benedictus", "St. John the Baptist", etc. There's even a Catholic church for dogs, "St. Bernard's", and one for a Comic strip Character, "St. Linus", and another for Pius "X", I guess they didn't know his last name. But not one "Jesus the Savior Catholic Church", or a "Jesus the Son of God church", or "Jesus the son of Mary the Perpetual Virgin" church, and no "The Body of Christ church".
SolaScriptura in 2003
New Member
The passage says "that disciple" indicating ONE SPECIFIC disciple, namely "that disciple whom Jesus loved" - this phrase "that disciple whom Jesus loved" being constantly used by John to refer to himself. Does "that disciple whom Jesus loved" mean all disciples in John's gospel? I doubt that even you would say so!
[ June 09, 2003, 04:52 PM: Message edited by: SolaScriptura in 2003 ]
thessalonian
New Member
Ray said:
"NEVER SEE"
Let's check the LA area.
CHRIST THE KING CATHOLIC CHURCH
624 N ROSSMORE AVE
LOS ANGELES, CA 90004
(323) 465-7605
CHURCH OF THE HOLY TRINITY
3722 BOYCE AVE
LOS ANGELES, CA 90039
(323) 664-4723
DIVINE SAVIOR CATHOLIC CHURCH
610 CYPRESS AVE
LOS ANGELES, CA 90065
(323) 225-9181
HOLY NAME OF JESUS CATHOLIC CHURCH
2190 W 31ST ST
LOS ANGELES, CA 90018
(323) 734-8888
HOLY NAME OF JESUS CATHOLIC CHURCH CCD
2186 W 31ST ST
LOS ANGELES, CA 90018
(323) 731-5448
GraceSaves
New Member
First off, if you were AT ALL serious about the "dog" or "comic strip" or "last name" remarks, I don't even know what to say.
If you were joking, I take offense to the crudeness applied to these people, and ask you to apologize.
Lastly, there are many Corpus Cristi churches, which translates to "Body of Christ."
Grant
Sola:
Jesus last words on the cross, speaking as the slain Lamb of God.:
Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do. (Luke 23:34)
Amen, I say unto thee, To-day with Me shalt thou be in the Paradise. (Luke 23:43)
Woman, Behold thy son! (John 19:26)
Behold thy mother,' (John 19:27)
My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?, Eli, Eli, lema sabachthanei? (Matthew 27:46)[
I thirst. (John 19:28)
It is finished! (John 19:30)
Father, INTO YOUR HANDS I COMMIT MY SPIRIT. (Luke 23:46)
If it was only last minute details of who Mary would live with, this could have been done beforehand. (How about all those siblings Jesus was supposed to have?) In any case Protestants would think nothing of it, if Jesus never even mentioned what happened to His mother after His death. They see her as just another Christian who happened to give birth to Jesus.
Yes, the disciple standing there, was specific to John, and generic to all who are Jesus Christ's beloved disciples. John is a example for us to follow. We should all be Jesus Christ’s "beloved disciple"…and we can be. Jesus Christ didn’t just have one you know. John knew this, too.
"All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; (2 Timothy 3:16)
God Bless
[ June 09, 2003, 06:10 PM: Message edited by: Kathryn ]
It says, “the disciple standing by, whom he loved”. John could have correctly said “me”, or “the disciple John”. He wrote this gospel under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Besides speaking to John specifically, Jesus as the slain Lamb of God, was also speaking eternally. Jesus was not up there paying his bills, finally deciding who His mom would live with, and taking care of superficial business that had nothing to do with us today. He was fulfilling prophecy, as was Mary. A sword pierces her own soul. All the prophecy is fulfilled. Scripture tells us there is much more that is not recorded that Jesus did. What is recorded is inspired by God and benefits us.
Jesus last words on the cross, speaking as the slain Lamb of God.:
Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do. (Luke 23:34)
Amen, I say unto thee, To-day with Me shalt thou be in the Paradise. (Luke 23:43)
Woman, Behold thy son! (John 19:26)
Behold thy mother,' (John 19:27)
My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?, Eli, Eli, lema sabachthanei? (Matthew 27:46)[
I thirst. (John 19:28)
It is finished! (John 19:30)
Father, INTO YOUR HANDS I COMMIT MY SPIRIT. (Luke 23:46)
If it was only last minute details of who Mary would live with, this could have been done beforehand. (How about all those siblings Jesus was supposed to have?) In any case Protestants would think nothing of it, if Jesus never even mentioned what happened to His mother after His death. They see her as just another Christian who happened to give birth to Jesus.
Yes, the disciple standing there, was specific to John, and generic to all who are Jesus Christ's beloved disciples. John is a example for us to follow. We should all be Jesus Christ’s "beloved disciple"…and we can be. Jesus Christ didn’t just have one you know. John knew this, too.
"All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; (2 Timothy 3:16)
God Bless
[ June 09, 2003, 06:10 PM: Message edited by: Kathryn ]
Y
Yelsew
Guest
First off, if you were AT ALL serious about the "dog" or "comic strip" or "last name" remarks, I don't even know what to say.
If you were joking, I take offense to the crudeness applied to these people, and ask you to apologize.
Lastly, there are many Corpus Cristi churches, which translates to "Body of Christ."
Grant </font>[/QUOTE]Apologize? For what? O.K., Sorry you can't laugh at the humor! But I did not name the animal, the cartoon character, nor did I name the church. I do however find much humor in what others have done, by making the simple connections I did. If you find that offensive, then you are taking this matter entirely to seriously. The name of a church does not afford Salvation to anyone, and once one dies, leaving their flesh behind to be buried or otherwise disposed of by the church, they will no longer be identified as part of "so and so" church. The will be known by whether or not the have faith in Jesus the Son of God, the Christ. So lighten up!
I am aware of the Corpus Christi name, but in the five phone books that I referred to, there is not one Corpus Christi church name listed either in the Yellow pages or the White pages. There are about 20 listings for people with the last name of Corpus, but none have the first name or initial of Christ, or C. I know of some Churches outside of the greater Los Angeles area named Corpus Christi, but none in the Los Angeles area. And in Texas There are number of Corpus Christi Baptist churches. But I guess they don't qualify to be Catholic.
Ray Berrian
New Member
I can think of at least three doctrines not found in the Bible the Word of God, but elevated to the church from a mortal being called the Holy Pontiff. I like very much this pope John Paul and my prayer for him is a long, long life. But, unless he assumes a spiritual body like my Lord's before his death I am inclined to believe that he too is mortal like you and me.
First, the Immaculate Conception. This doctrine asks its constituents to believe that Mary was preserved free from Original Sin by Divine grace. On December 8th of every year this concept is observed and is a festival in commemoration of her life.
The Perpetual Virginity of Mary is self explanatory. In Matthew 13:55 names Jesus' half brothers and sisters. The one that interests me the most is James who was the half brother of Jesus, meaning that James was the product of the love of Mary for her husband Joseph.
Dr. Stephen W. Paine, Ph.D. says, 'The epistle declares itself to be the writing of James. Three persons of this name are mentioned in the New Testament. However, James the son of Joseph and Mary, the half brother of the Lord Jesus, is accredited by the Christian Church as the author of this epistle. James in his teaching represents a striking resemblance to our Lord. A comparison of this epistle with the Sermon on the Mount reveals at least a dozen clear parallelisms. Chosen as the moderator of the Jerusalem Church subsequent to Pentecost, James gave to his epistle a note of unassuming authority. Devoid of all apology, its 108 verses contain fifty-four commands.' {The
A.J. Holman Bible, the King James Version, Philadelphia} (under Helps To Bible Study in back of the Bible, p. 88.
Thirdly, is the Assumption of Mary into Heaven. My wife has a book called, "Sacred Heart Prayer Book" published by Sacred Heart Monastery Hales Corners, Wisconsin, and on page 96 is a blue and white robed picture of Mary ascending to Heaven like Jesus has been documented in Scripture as having done. {Acts 1:9} In both our Old and New Testaments we cannot find any reference to Mary's Assumption into paradise.
I don't think you can find in any Bible that Jesus calls Mary mother. I am persuaded that He was trying to distance Himself from her in order to preserve the truth of His sole Mediatorship. [I Timothy 2:5]
These three doctrines and perhaps more are edicts pronounced by designated Popes as being worthy of acceptance merely because of Roman Catholic dogma. No Scriptural backing is necessary and so it appears to me that the various Pontiffs have taken on an uninvited task of adding to the Word of God. The Apostle John warns against any person who adds to His Words of truth. [Revelation 22:18]
We are not incorrect in thinking that the Catholic Church has attempted, through dogma, to elevate Mary to level than is warranted by His words and Divine approval.
Another book my wife has is called, "Catholic Book of Prayers". On page 76 I would like to read you the Prayer To St. Joseph.
'Guardian of virgins, and holy father Joseph, to whose faithful custody Christ Jesus, innocence itself, and Mary, Virgin of virgins, were committed: I beg you, by these dear pledges, Jesus and Mary, that, being preserved from all uncleanness, I may with spotless mind, pure heart and chaste body ever serve Jesus and Mary most chastely all the days of my life. Amen.
I rest my case.
First, the Immaculate Conception. This doctrine asks its constituents to believe that Mary was preserved free from Original Sin by Divine grace. On December 8th of every year this concept is observed and is a festival in commemoration of her life.
The Perpetual Virginity of Mary is self explanatory. In Matthew 13:55 names Jesus' half brothers and sisters. The one that interests me the most is James who was the half brother of Jesus, meaning that James was the product of the love of Mary for her husband Joseph.
Dr. Stephen W. Paine, Ph.D. says, 'The epistle declares itself to be the writing of James. Three persons of this name are mentioned in the New Testament. However, James the son of Joseph and Mary, the half brother of the Lord Jesus, is accredited by the Christian Church as the author of this epistle. James in his teaching represents a striking resemblance to our Lord. A comparison of this epistle with the Sermon on the Mount reveals at least a dozen clear parallelisms. Chosen as the moderator of the Jerusalem Church subsequent to Pentecost, James gave to his epistle a note of unassuming authority. Devoid of all apology, its 108 verses contain fifty-four commands.' {The
A.J. Holman Bible, the King James Version, Philadelphia} (under Helps To Bible Study in back of the Bible, p. 88.
Thirdly, is the Assumption of Mary into Heaven. My wife has a book called, "Sacred Heart Prayer Book" published by Sacred Heart Monastery Hales Corners, Wisconsin, and on page 96 is a blue and white robed picture of Mary ascending to Heaven like Jesus has been documented in Scripture as having done. {Acts 1:9} In both our Old and New Testaments we cannot find any reference to Mary's Assumption into paradise.
I don't think you can find in any Bible that Jesus calls Mary mother. I am persuaded that He was trying to distance Himself from her in order to preserve the truth of His sole Mediatorship. [I Timothy 2:5]
These three doctrines and perhaps more are edicts pronounced by designated Popes as being worthy of acceptance merely because of Roman Catholic dogma. No Scriptural backing is necessary and so it appears to me that the various Pontiffs have taken on an uninvited task of adding to the Word of God. The Apostle John warns against any person who adds to His Words of truth. [Revelation 22:18]
We are not incorrect in thinking that the Catholic Church has attempted, through dogma, to elevate Mary to level than is warranted by His words and Divine approval.
Another book my wife has is called, "Catholic Book of Prayers". On page 76 I would like to read you the Prayer To St. Joseph.
'Guardian of virgins, and holy father Joseph, to whose faithful custody Christ Jesus, innocence itself, and Mary, Virgin of virgins, were committed: I beg you, by these dear pledges, Jesus and Mary, that, being preserved from all uncleanness, I may with spotless mind, pure heart and chaste body ever serve Jesus and Mary most chastely all the days of my life. Amen.
I rest my case.
Ray: That was a good prayer to St. Joseph. Here are a few other Catholic Prayers I will share with you :
Soul of Christ, sanctify me.
Body of Christ, save me.
Blood of Christ, inebriate me.
Water from the side of Christ, wash me.
Passion of Christ, strengthen me.
O good Jesus, hear me.
Within thy wounds hide me.
Suffer me not to be separated from thee.
From the malicious enemy defend me.
In the hour of my death call me
And bid me come unto thee,
that with thy saints I may praise thee
forever and ever. Amen
Behold, O Kind and most sweet Jesus,
before Thy face I humbly kneel,
and with the most fervent desire of soul,
I pray and beseech Thee
to impress upon my heart lively sentiments
of faith, hope and charity,
true contrition for my sins
and a firm purpose of amendment.
With deep affection and grief of soul,
I ponder within myself,
mentally contemplating Thy five wounds,
having before my eyes
the words which David the Prophet spoke
concerning Thee:
"They have pierced my hands and my feet,
they have numbered all my bones."
My God, I believe, I adore, and I love You! I beg pardon of You for those who do not believe, do not adore, do not hope and do notlove You!
O my Jesus, forgive us, save us from the fire of Hell. Lead all souls to Heaven, especially those in most need of your Mercy.
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of the Living God, have mercy on me a sinner.
God Bless
Soul of Christ, sanctify me.
Body of Christ, save me.
Blood of Christ, inebriate me.
Water from the side of Christ, wash me.
Passion of Christ, strengthen me.
O good Jesus, hear me.
Within thy wounds hide me.
Suffer me not to be separated from thee.
From the malicious enemy defend me.
In the hour of my death call me
And bid me come unto thee,
that with thy saints I may praise thee
forever and ever. Amen
Behold, O Kind and most sweet Jesus,
before Thy face I humbly kneel,
and with the most fervent desire of soul,
I pray and beseech Thee
to impress upon my heart lively sentiments
of faith, hope and charity,
true contrition for my sins
and a firm purpose of amendment.
With deep affection and grief of soul,
I ponder within myself,
mentally contemplating Thy five wounds,
having before my eyes
the words which David the Prophet spoke
concerning Thee:
"They have pierced my hands and my feet,
they have numbered all my bones."
My God, I believe, I adore, and I love You! I beg pardon of You for those who do not believe, do not adore, do not hope and do notlove You!
O my Jesus, forgive us, save us from the fire of Hell. Lead all souls to Heaven, especially those in most need of your Mercy.
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of the Living God, have mercy on me a sinner.
God Bless
BrotherJesse
New Member
All I can say is Catholics are Christians too. They believe in Jesus Christ as the Son of God and that's the bottom line. Now mind you they do believe differently than the rest of the Christian world, but that does not mean they aren't Christians! I respect Catholics and admire them for their beliefs and courage.
Is this sinful for me to admire Catholics? No. I still pray to Jesus Christ and God the Father. The two of them are the only ones I pray to. I went through a period of asking Saint Francis of Assi to intercede for me. No results came. Only Jesus can intercede for His flock. Jesus Christ loves Catholics. However I am sure He is a bit confused on their belief system. As am I. I do not believe what Roman Catholics believe, but I do think they are Chrisitans.
Is this sinful for me to admire Catholics? No. I still pray to Jesus Christ and God the Father. The two of them are the only ones I pray to. I went through a period of asking Saint Francis of Assi to intercede for me. No results came. Only Jesus can intercede for His flock. Jesus Christ loves Catholics. However I am sure He is a bit confused on their belief system. As am I. I do not believe what Roman Catholics believe, but I do think they are Chrisitans.
GraceSaves
New Member
Thank you Brother Jessee.
Just curious - you never pray to the Holy Spirit? I notice, looking back, that I never really had a relationship with the Holy Spirit as a Protestant (could just be me, I dunno); giving the Spirit equal prayer attention wasn't something that really came to me until I became Catholic. Just looking for your thoughts on the matter.
God bless you,
Grant
Just curious - you never pray to the Holy Spirit? I notice, looking back, that I never really had a relationship with the Holy Spirit as a Protestant (could just be me, I dunno); giving the Spirit equal prayer attention wasn't something that really came to me until I became Catholic. Just looking for your thoughts on the matter.
God bless you,
Grant
BrotherJesse
New Member
I PMed you on this matter.
Ray Berrian
New Member
Grace Saves Grant,
I too, have reviewed what you have been thinking about. I prayed to God in tears because for so many years I had prayed only through Jesus, and now in later years I feel strongly that I have offended the Father and the precious Holy Spirit. I have two or three times asked forgivness from God about this matter. Hopefully, the saw through my immaturity and now, at times, I pray to each Person of the Godhead.
Grant, Romans chapter eight verse twenty-six gives us some consulation and understanding.
'Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities; for we know not what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered {by Christians}. And He Who searches the hearts knowth what is the mind of the Spirit, because He maketh intercession for the saints, {on this earth} according to the will of God.'
I too, have reviewed what you have been thinking about. I prayed to God in tears because for so many years I had prayed only through Jesus, and now in later years I feel strongly that I have offended the Father and the precious Holy Spirit. I have two or three times asked forgivness from God about this matter. Hopefully, the saw through my immaturity and now, at times, I pray to each Person of the Godhead.
Grant, Romans chapter eight verse twenty-six gives us some consulation and understanding.
'Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities; for we know not what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered {by Christians}. And He Who searches the hearts knowth what is the mind of the Spirit, because He maketh intercession for the saints, {on this earth} according to the will of God.'
Ray Berrian
New Member
Kathryn,
Beyond your personal evaluation and declaration that you think the prayer to St. Joseph is fine, do you have any opinion about the other aspects of my post dated June 9th at 11:29 p.m. What about the ex cathedras of the various Popes and about the author of the general epistle of James.
My regards,
Ray
Beyond your personal evaluation and declaration that you think the prayer to St. Joseph is fine, do you have any opinion about the other aspects of my post dated June 9th at 11:29 p.m. What about the ex cathedras of the various Popes and about the author of the general epistle of James.
My regards,
Ray
thessalonian
New Member
Ray,
Did you seem my posts about "Never SEE"ing Catholic Churches named after Jesus a couple pages back. I found hundreds yesterday with some simple searches on the net and know of many locally. And there are a half a dozen in Los Angeles Metro alone. Had to add that. You might want to qualify your "nevers" and "absolutely's" and "not found"'s (see below) with something like "to my knowledge".
You said:
"I can think of at least three doctrines not found in the Bible the Word of God, but elevated to the church from a mortal being called the Holy Pontiff. "
It is your opinion that there is no evidence for them in the Bible. However in each of your three cases we Catholics see them in the Bible.
"I like very much this pope John Paul and my prayer for him is a long, long life. But, unless he assumes a spiritual body like my Lord's before his death I am inclined to believe that he too is mortal like you and me."
What is your point? We know that quite well. But the question is, was Peter Cheif of the Apostles and did he have successors. There is a mountain of evidence for this that I am sure you have not and will not consider. But if your interested start a thread.
"First, the Immaculate Conception. This doctrine asks its constituents to believe that Mary was preserved free from Original Sin by Divine grace. On December 8th of every year this concept is observed and is a festival in commemoration of her life."
For what it is worth here is the evidence from the Bible for the IC. First of all in the Old Testament we have the Ark of the Covenant. It was highly revered by the Jews as a relic which was of extreme purity,
Exodus 25:11
"You shall overlay it with pure gold, inside and out you shall overlay it, and you shall make a gold molding around it.
such that they could not even touch it or they would die. God told them how specifically to make it. One of them actually did in 2 Sam 6 to steady it and he died on the spot. The ark as we are told in hebrews contained:
Hebrews 9:4
having a golden altar of incense and the ark of the covenant covered on all sides with gold, in which was a golden jar holding the manna, and Aaron's rod which budded, and the tables of the covenant;
These of course are symbolic of Jesus. What does any of this have to do with Mary. Well there is something interesting in Luke's gospel that you likely have never noticed. Luke parrellels Mary to the Ark.
David says words that are stikingly similar to elizabeth's words in the prescence of the Ark.
2 Samuel 6:9
So David was afraid of the LORD that day; and he said, "How can the ark of the lord come to me?"
David leaps before the Ark of the Old Covenant. John the Baptist before the Ark of the New covenant.
Luke 1:43
"And how has it happened to me, that the mother of my Lord would come to me?
2 Samuel 6:16
Then it happened as the ark of the LORD came into the city of David that Michal the daughter of Saul looked out of the window and saw King David LEAPING and dancing before the LORD; and she
despised him in her heart.
Mary stays with Elizabeth and blesses her for three months while the ark stayed with Obemedon (coincidentally in the hill country of Judah in both cases) and blessed him.
Luke 1:41
When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.
Luke 1:56
And Mary stayed with her about three months, and then returned to her home.
2 Samuel 6:11
Thus the ark of the LORD remained in the house of Obed-edom the Gittite three months, and the LORD blessed Obed-edom and all his household.
Now for us Catholics it is clear that the message is that Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant. This has been spoken of since the early days of the Church and these texts are read on the feast of the IC as I recall. It is the belief of Catholics that like the ark which was built to God's specifications, he also built and ark for his son to his specifications of great purity. There is evidence of this in the new testament when the angel gabriel says "hail full of grace". To be full of grace is to have no room for sin. This does not make one God. Just sinless.
Hope that helps.
Blessings
Perhaps if I have time later I will get in to the other doctrines you have questioned as invented by the Pope with "no biblical support". I assure you things are not as they seem.
[ June 10, 2003, 02:13 PM: Message edited by: thessalonian ]
Did you seem my posts about "Never SEE"ing Catholic Churches named after Jesus a couple pages back. I found hundreds yesterday with some simple searches on the net and know of many locally. And there are a half a dozen in Los Angeles Metro alone.
Had to add that. You might want to qualify your "nevers" and "absolutely's" and "not found"'s (see below) with something like "to my knowledge".You said:
"I can think of at least three doctrines not found in the Bible the Word of God, but elevated to the church from a mortal being called the Holy Pontiff. "
It is your opinion that there is no evidence for them in the Bible. However in each of your three cases we Catholics see them in the Bible.
"I like very much this pope John Paul and my prayer for him is a long, long life. But, unless he assumes a spiritual body like my Lord's before his death I am inclined to believe that he too is mortal like you and me."
What is your point? We know that quite well. But the question is, was Peter Cheif of the Apostles and did he have successors. There is a mountain of evidence for this that I am sure you have not and will not consider. But if your interested start a thread.
"First, the Immaculate Conception. This doctrine asks its constituents to believe that Mary was preserved free from Original Sin by Divine grace. On December 8th of every year this concept is observed and is a festival in commemoration of her life."
For what it is worth here is the evidence from the Bible for the IC. First of all in the Old Testament we have the Ark of the Covenant. It was highly revered by the Jews as a relic which was of extreme purity,
Exodus 25:11
"You shall overlay it with pure gold, inside and out you shall overlay it, and you shall make a gold molding around it.
such that they could not even touch it or they would die. God told them how specifically to make it. One of them actually did in 2 Sam 6 to steady it and he died on the spot. The ark as we are told in hebrews contained:
Hebrews 9:4
having a golden altar of incense and the ark of the covenant covered on all sides with gold, in which was a golden jar holding the manna, and Aaron's rod which budded, and the tables of the covenant;
These of course are symbolic of Jesus. What does any of this have to do with Mary. Well there is something interesting in Luke's gospel that you likely have never noticed. Luke parrellels Mary to the Ark.
David says words that are stikingly similar to elizabeth's words in the prescence of the Ark.
2 Samuel 6:9
So David was afraid of the LORD that day; and he said, "How can the ark of the lord come to me?"
David leaps before the Ark of the Old Covenant. John the Baptist before the Ark of the New covenant.
Luke 1:43
"And how has it happened to me, that the mother of my Lord would come to me?
2 Samuel 6:16
Then it happened as the ark of the LORD came into the city of David that Michal the daughter of Saul looked out of the window and saw King David LEAPING and dancing before the LORD; and she
despised him in her heart.
Mary stays with Elizabeth and blesses her for three months while the ark stayed with Obemedon (coincidentally in the hill country of Judah in both cases) and blessed him.
Luke 1:41
When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.
Luke 1:56
And Mary stayed with her about three months, and then returned to her home.
2 Samuel 6:11
Thus the ark of the LORD remained in the house of Obed-edom the Gittite three months, and the LORD blessed Obed-edom and all his household.
Now for us Catholics it is clear that the message is that Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant. This has been spoken of since the early days of the Church and these texts are read on the feast of the IC as I recall. It is the belief of Catholics that like the ark which was built to God's specifications, he also built and ark for his son to his specifications of great purity. There is evidence of this in the new testament when the angel gabriel says "hail full of grace". To be full of grace is to have no room for sin. This does not make one God. Just sinless.
Hope that helps.
Blessings
Perhaps if I have time later I will get in to the other doctrines you have questioned as invented by the Pope with "no biblical support". I assure you things are not as they seem.
[ June 10, 2003, 02:13 PM: Message edited by: thessalonian ]