Purgatory Or The Judgment Seat of Christ?

Ray Berrian · Jun 7, 2003

For many Roman Catholics there is the mystery and fear of Purgatory because not even the priest knows how long each communicant will remain there. What if you have no one to allegedly, 'pray you out of this place of limbo.' I think the Catholic Church in her catechism uses some of the same verses that we do to explain this, exclusively, Catholic condition of the soul.

Try to realize that for the most part the Bible was written to all of us to give us assurance in this life and a sure hope of everlasting life with Christ.

Romans chapter eight starts out with the verse that anyone who loves Jesus will not come into condemnation and closes out this chapter by saying that absolutely nothing can separate us from the love and care coming from Jesus Christ.

The great Apostle Paul of our faith tells his congregations that when he dies he and they will immediately be in the Presence of God in Heaven. [II Corinthians 5:8c; Philippians 1:23] No Christian evaluation like purgatory takes place until Jesus returns for His universal church. This is referenced in I Corinthians 15:51-58 & I Thessalonians 4:13-18] Anyone who loves, has experienced, trusts completely in Jesus for everlasting life is sure to go straight to where the Lord is, which, of course, is Heaven.

Directly after Jesus come for the universal church and human bodies are resurrected from the dead, the Bible tells us with great clarity that Christians will stand before "The Judgment Seat of Christ." [Romans 14:10; II Corinthians 5:10] These two references are the only two relative to this required judgment coming from the Lord. Let me assure you that this judgment is not to find out if we made it or not, because every Christian will have made the grade. This judgment is to evaluate our performance as to what we have done for Christ and His church. For example, did we witness to Jesus power to forgive sins, were we faithful to the service/or mass of the church, did we honor the men of God in the pulpits, were we a good example of how and what the Christian life is all about. {You get the idea}

There is no prolonged 'side-bar' at purgatory, but what we all will experience after He comes for His church, is clearly defined in God's Word. The explanation is found in I Corinthians 3:11-15. I did not understand this truth of His evaluative, judgment until my first year of seminary at Reformed Episcopal Seminary.

We know that ' . . . our God is a consuming fire.' [Hebrews 12:29] If you are a Christian you probably understood when the Lord has stepped into your life with chastisement. [Hebrews 12:513] It was His Providential move in your life that burned away the dross of you foolish ways. God knew it; and you and I know it when we experience His correction and redirection.

The Judgment Seat of Christ will be something like what is taught in the Roman Catholic Church.

Each of us in all of our churches are personally building worthy or unworthy things into our lives. For example: reading the Bible everyday and praying to God will be considered like building 'gold' into our lives. Supporting the clergy in whatever way will be like building 'silver' into our future evaluation for the Lord to examine. [I Corinthians 3:12; John 5:22b]

Our careless sins will be considered like 'wood, hay, and stubble.' When we stand before the Lord our work and labor of love for the Lord will be judged, probably, quickly as we stand in the Presence of this brilliant and fiery Person called Jesus Christ.

The apostle tell us that our 'wood, hay, and stubble will be burned away, which will also probably be our works done for self-glory rather than for His greater praise. Our good things done will be refined by His fire; these 'good works' will be rewarded by Him. {His rewards is another subject} Anyway, those works which remain and were not burned up will be the basis of our reward and standing/status in Heaven.

Some of our friends who lived careless Christian lives will have nothing to evaluate but 'wood, hay and stubble; but even to these believers they will be saved and enter Heaven, though unworthy. They ' . . . will be saved but only through His fiery judgment.' In other words, some believers will be saved 'by the skin of their teeth'--meaning barely. [I Corinthians 3:15]

This is the similarity between Purgatory and the Judgment Seat of Christ. If you know this spiritual truth or just saw this light, consider yourself fortunate to understand this truth.

Ray Berrian, Th.D.

Kathryn · Jun 7, 2003

Catholic Teaching on Purgatory:

1031. "The Church gives the name PURGATORY to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.[Cf. Council of Florence (1439): DS 1304; Council of Trent (1563): DS 1820; (1547): 1580; see also Benedict XII, Benedictus Deus (1336): DS 1000.] The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on PURGATORY especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:[Cf. 1 Cor 3:15 ; 1 Pet 1:7 .] As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.[St. Gregory the Great, Dial. 4, 39: PL 77, 396; cf. Mt 12:31 .] "
To view the context, please visit http://www.christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/art12.html#FINAL

1472. "To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the 'eternal punishment' of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called PURGATORY. This purification frees one from what is called the 'temporal punishment' of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.[Cf. Council of Trent (1551): DS 1712-1713; (1563): 1820.]"
To view the context, please visit http://www.christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/healing.html#INDULGENCES

1475. "In the communion of saints, 'a perennial link of charity exists between the faithful who have already reached their heavenly home, those who are expiating their sins in PURGATORY and those who are still pilgrims on earth. between them there is, too, an abundant exchange of all good things.'[Indulgentiarum doctrina, 5.] In this wonderful exchange, the holiness of one profits others, well beyond the harm that the sin of one could cause others. Thus recourse to the communion of saints lets the contrite sinner be more promptly and efficaciously purified of the punishments for sin."
To view the context, please visit http://www.christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/healing.html#INDULGENCES

BobRyan · Jun 7, 2003

The entire system of "indulgences" is a system dedicated to the "fear of purgatory" and the real desire to "get out of there as fast as possible".

Plenary indulgences can only be "earned" for one that is dead - you can not get one "for yourself".

A faithful Catholic - who was concerned for a friend or loved one WOULD earn multiple plenary indulgences for that same loved one - to get them out of Purgatory.

In Christ,

Bob

KenH · Jun 7, 2003

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Anyway, those works which remain and were not burned up will be the basis of our reward and standing/status in Heaven.
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I have read where someone said, "Our rewards in the Kingdom will not be on what we DO for Christ, but what we LOSE for Christ."

I think that makes a lot of sense.

Mark 10:29-30 (ESV)
[29]Jesus said, "Truly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or lands, for my sake and for the gospel, [30] who will not receive a hundredfold now in this time, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions, and in the age to come eternal life.

GraceSaves · Jun 7, 2003

Ray,

Your entire post is bogus, because purgatory is a state that occurs after we are judged, not before.

God bless,

Grant

GraceSaves · Jun 7, 2003

Originally posted by BobRyan:
The entire system of "indulgences" is a system dedicated to the "fear of purgatory" and the real desire to "get out of there as fast as possible".

Plenary indulgences can only be "earned" for one that is dead - you can not get one "for yourself".

A faithful Catholic - who was concerned for a friend or loved one WOULD earn multiple plenary indulgences for that same loved one - to get them out of Purgatory.

In Christ,

Bob
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Thanks for the entertainment, Bob.

I'm not afraid of purgatory; I view it as a grace of God.

Thanks anyway for the slander, though.

God bless,

Grant

BobRyan · Jun 7, 2003

Grant said --
I'm not afraid of purgatory; I view it as a grace of God.
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Wonderful - then the entire system of indulgences will end as soon as all Catholics view Purgatory as the great and wonderful place that you do.

In the mean time...The RCC teaches us that..

The Faith Explained

"It is evident that no one can know 'How Long' Purgatory LASTS for any individual
soul. I have put "How Long" in quotes because, while there is DURATION beyond
the grave, there is no "time" as WE know it;..However whether we measure purgatory by DURATION or by INTENSITY the fact remains that a soul in Purgatory can NOT lessen its OWN sufferings. But WE the LIVING can "help that soul" by the mercy of God and the frequency of our remembrance." pg 181

"The moment the soul leaves the body it is exposed to the full power of God's 'Pull'
upon the soul. Crazed with hunger for God the soul beats ITSELF against the barriers of its OWN remaining IMPERFECTIONS UNTIL FINALLY it is purged" Pg 180

Indulgence "The remission granted by the church of the temporal punishment due to sin ALREADY forgiven" TFE - 469

"This was effected through the TRANSFER to the repentant sinner of the satisfactory VALUE of the martyr’s suffering..That is the origin of the system of MEASURING indulgences which the Church uses to the present day." pg 471

"An indulgence of 300 days, for example, does not mean three hundred days less
in Purgatory. It means that when a 300 day indulgence is granted it will remit as
much of the TEMPORAL punishment DUE to sin as would be remitted IF the
person did 300 days TEMPORAL public penance according to the discipline of the ancient Church". pg 471.

"Examples of such penance were wearing rough sackcloth with ashes sprinkled on the head, fasting, scourging one's body, retiring to a monastery, kneeling at the Church door or wandering as a beggar through the countryside" pg 471.

"Thus if I devoutly say 'My Jesus, Mercy!" a HUNDRED times during the day, then a HUNDRED times I GAIN an indulgence of THREE HUNDRED days." Pg 475

"Because Jesus is God, everything He did and suffered was of infinite value. By His
life and death He established an inexhaustible store of satisfactory merit. To this has been added the satisfaction of the saints which were beyond their own needs" Pg 472

"If we were to gain a fully a plenary indulgence and were to die immediately afterwards we would be with God in heaven immediately, without any need for ATONEMENT in Purgatory. IN PRACTICE, we SELDOM can be CERTAIN that we have gained a plenary Indulgence in its FULLNESS. (to really gain it) means that we have true sorrow for ALL venial sins as well as mortal AND that we be resolved to avoid ALL deliberate venial sins, AS WELL as mortal in the future. It is not often that we can be confident that our renunciation of sin is so ALL-embracing." p473

"It scarcely needs emphasizing that another condition for gaining an indulgence is that we carry out exactly, according to the time, place and manner prescribed, ALL the requirements which the Church lays down for the gaining of any particular indulgence" P 474

"It should be observed that we CANNOT apply the indulgences which we gain to ANY other LIVING persons. IN this matter each of us has to WORK OFF HIS OWN DEBT. However, we CAN APPLY most indulgences to the souls in Purgatory. In fact ALL the indulgences granted by the Holy Father, unless the contrary is expressly stated, MAY be applied to the suffering souls (in Purgatory" P 477

"SINCE the Church has DIRECT AUTHORITY over her living members, the indulgences which we gain FOR OURSELVES are ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN... The Church however does NOT have direct authority over the souls in Purgatory. Indulgences for THEM are offered by way of suffrage - a petition to God begging Him to apply the indulgence to a particular soul...Whether or NOT the indulgence is APPLIED to the soul rests with the mercy of God. We can HOPE that the specified soul will receive the indulgence which we have gained for him; but since we can not know for CERTAIN, the Church allows us to offer more than ONE PLENARY indulgence fo the same departed soul" P477

"An example of a plenary indulgence which may be gained many times is the one for ALL Soul's Day. For every visit made to a church on that day, with the Our Father, Hail Mary, and Glory be to Father recited SIX times for the intentions of the Pope, we may gain a plenary indulgence for the SUFFERING souls". Pg 475
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But if we could "pretend" that all these sources in Catholicism "do not exist" when around non-Catholic - THEN we could charge non-Catholics with slander for bringing up the points these documents make.

Wouldn't that be nice?

In Christ,

Bob

Ray Berrian · Jun 7, 2003

Ken H,

You have raised a good point. It is not only what we do for our Lord but also what we have given up for His church and ministry that will be evaluated.

Do you remember several years ago when several nuns were ambushed by a rebel army in Central America. I wrote the families involved to express my sense of sorrow for what I know they were experiencing.

At the Judgment Seat of Christ these sisters, in my understanding, will be rewarded with ' . . . a crown of life' is documented in Revelation 2:10 e,f. 'Fear none of those things which thou shall suffer; behold, the Devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days. Be thou faithful unto death, and I will give you a crown of life.'

Ultimately, if we have any crowns received, we will cast them before our worthy Lord Jesus. [Revelation 4:10-11]

With Heaven assured [John 10:27-30] we have the greatest of all futures ahead of us as Christians. [John 3:16]

WPutnam · Jun 7, 2003

I was going to respond here.

but I see some good Catholics doing a fine job!

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+

"Gloria in excelsis Deo"

(Intoned by the celebrant of the Mass.)

(The choir response.)

Et in terra pax homininus
bone voluntatis
Laudamus te
Benedicimus te
Adoramus te
Glorificamus te,
Gratias agimus tibi propter
magnum gloriam tuum.
Domine Deus, Rex Coelestis,
Deus Pater omnipotens
Domine Fili unigenite
Jesu Christe Domine Deus
Agnus Dei Filius Patris
Qui tollis peccata mundi
miserere nobis.
Qui tollis peccata mundi,
suscipe deprecationem nostram.
Qui sedes ad dexteramPatris,
miserere nobis.
Quoniam tu solus Sanctus,
Tu solus Dominus
Tu solus Altissimus
Jesu Christe.
Cum Sancto Spiritu
in gloria Dei Patris
Amen.

- The Ambrosian Gloria -

http://www.solesmes.com/sons/gloria.ram

(Real monks chanting....)

Gregorian Chant - God's music!

GraceSaves · Jun 7, 2003

Bob,

You post things out of proper context, as usual.

Does one suffer in purgatory? Sure. Giving up our sinful ways is painful, because sometimes we are so entrenched in sinfullness, it takes a lot to give it up and not fall back into it. Does that make the suffering "bad"? No. I suffer often for my faith in Christ to those who oppose it. I suffer insult. Many suffer personal injury, even death. Does that make the suffering bad? No. That doesn't make it wrong or fearful either. Because we suffer in purgatory does not make it wrong or bad or fearful.

Further, of course I will want to be out of the state of purgatory, because that means I will be in the full and complete presence of my Lord and Savior for ever and ever! Purgatory, by its nature, is temporary; it is God cleansing us of our sinful nature; the sooner we can be with him, the better. So, yes, indulgences on behalf of the faithful departed are good, because we want to see them with our God sooner!

You can try to make it depressing, and you might succeed for those who already reject purgatory or don't know what it is. But you will not change the true view of it by posting uncontextual examples.

God bless,

Grant

CatholicConvert · Jun 7, 2003

Brother Ray --

Romans chapter eight starts out with the verse that anyone who loves Jesus will not come into condemnation and closes out this chapter by saying that absolutely nothing can separate us from the love and care coming from Jesus Christ.

I'm sorry, Ray, but it DOES NOT SAY THAT. It states a number of things which cannot separate us from the love of Christ, but you have failed to notice that SIN is not in that listing.

According to St. Paul, sin can and most certainly does separate us from God:

Ga 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

1Jo 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

The great Apostle Paul of our faith tells his congregations that when he dies he and they will immediately be in the Presence of God in Heaven.

Again, you are reading your presuppositions into a single verse.

2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

This is not a blanket promise. It is St. Paul's personal statement that HE would rather be absent from the body and present with the Lord. He states his willingness to leave the body and go be with Christ. But look at the next verses.

9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

HOLY CATS!!!! We labour that we might be accepted of Him??? I though that we were automatically accepted by "faith alone" and justified forever as if we never sinned!!! Sounds like St. Paul believes in "works salvation" according to your theology. And it gits even worse:

10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Wait a cotton pickin minute?? I thought you said that we all go IMMEDIATELY TO BE WITH CHRIST FOREVER!!! That is not what Scripture teaches at all, is it? Look at Romans 2: 5 - 10. The Judgment Seat of Christ comes first for every man and woman, and upon that judgement we receive either eternal life or eternal perdition. That is certainly a far cry from what you just suggested.

No Christian evaluation like purgatory takes place until Jesus returns for His universal church.

Jesus already returned in AD 70 and began the Day of Judgement. The souls who were waiting in Purgatory were released unto Him. According to Rev. 20, they are the righteous, who are the inheritors of Heaven. The rest shall not live until the physical return of the Lord on the Last Day. Those resurrected then are in heap big trouble.

This is referenced in I Corinthians 15:51-58 & I Thessalonians 4:13-18.

Well, I am shocked that you, having gone to a seminary, can look at 1 Corin. 15 and try to create something out of it which isn't there. The whole chapter is about the resurrection, and 1 Thess. 4, which uses similar language, is also about that event. Those who think it speaks about a so called "rapture of the church" are doing so by overlooking that which is plainly obvious. St. Paul's whole subject is the resurrection.

Anyone who loves, has experienced, trusts completely in Jesus for everlasting life is sure to go straight to where the Lord is, which, of course, is Heaven.

Again, that is not what Romans 2 teaches.

Directly after Jesus come for the universal church and human bodies are resurrected from the dead, the Bible tells us with great clarity that Christians will stand before "The Judgment Seat of Christ." [Romans 14:10; II Corinthians 5:10]

Ray!!!! There is NO SUCH TIME INDICATOR in those verses. You are reading into the text that which you have been taught. It simply promises that all shall stand before Christ at the Judgement Seat. WHERE do you find any "time indicators" in those verses?

These two references are the only two relative to this required judgment coming from the Lord. Let me assure you that this judgment is not to find out if we made it or not, because every Christian will have made the grade.

Once again, you better go back and READ Romans 2: 5 - 10. St. Paul warns us that .... well, here, read it yourself...

Ro 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

EVERY MAN, Ray!! There is NO EXCEPTION MADE!! None!!

You need to take the Word of God at its face value, my brother, and stop reading into it that which the Reformation brought forth as a soteriological novum.

There is no prolonged 'side-bar' at purgatory, but what we all will experience after He comes for His church, is clearly defined in God's Word. The explanation is found in I Corinthians 3:11-15. I did not understand this truth of His evaluative, judgment until my first year of seminary at Reformed Episcopal Seminary.

IF the idea of "forensic justification" were actually to be true as Luther and Calvin taught it, then you would be correct. However, it does not stand the scrutiny of the Greek in Romans. There is no such thing as "forensic justification" (or imputed righteousness) and therefore, God judges us based on what we really, really are, not on some divine self-deception He indulges Himself in to give us a pass. He deals in truth, or rather, should I say, He brings us face to face with the truth of what we really are, for the Light of Christ will shear away all of our pretenses and we will stand naked before Him. Those who are still in a state of sin, but not sin which forever separates from God, will be cleansed by the fires of His love. Those who are irremediably sinful will find the fies of His love to be the fires of torment forever.

We know that ' . . . our God is a consuming fire.' [Hebrews 12:29] If you are a Christian you probably understood when the Lord has stepped into your life with chastisement. [Hebrews 12:513] It was His Providential move in your life that burned away the dross of you foolish ways. God knew it; and you and I know it when we experience His correction and redirection.

Well that's exactly what purgation is. We are embraced by the One who is a consuming fire and that fire of His love cleanses us. That's all there is to it really.
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Here is a pretty good article by an Orthodox priest:

THE RIVER OF FIRE

I find the concept taught here both intriguing, and totally in line with the Biblical statement that God is love.

Hope you will take time to read it.

Cordially in Christ,

Brother Ed

Ray Berrian · Jun 7, 2003

Grant,

You suggested this. 'Your entire post is bogus, because purgatory is a state that occurs after we are judged, not before.'

Are you saying that the alleged Purgatory is a state or place of confinement after the Christian is judged by the Lord? If the blood of Jesus Christ was not enough to purge our sins at the Cross and in our wayward lives, how is it that humans are used through their prayers to develop the merit of those who apparently were not ready to meet Him.

Scripture suggests that some Christians will not be ready at the time of their deaths or at His coming for the church in the air. Note: I John 2:28. Some will be ashamed but will never be tossed into limbo especially when Christ paid the penalty for all of the sins of believers. [I John 2:2a & 12] This state of limbo/Purgatory is in contradistinction to what God told the Apostle Paul to say in II Corinthians 5:8 and Philippians 1:23. Was not Paul saying that the destiny of all Christians, including himself, was the immediate Presence of Christ in Heaven before His throne?

My regards,

Ray

Yelsew · Jun 7, 2003

Originally posted by GraceSaves:
Ray,

Your entire post is bogus, because purgatory is a state that occurs after we are judged, not before.

God bless,

Grant
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The only thing in Scripture that says anything about judgment, is being cast into the lake of fire for those lacking faith in Jesus, and being given over to Jesus for those who do have faith in Jesus. There exists NO intermediary rest stops between judgment and punishment. Once an unbeliever is judged, the bailiff says "Go to Hell, Go directly to Hell, do not pass "GO".

GraceSaves · Jun 7, 2003

Originally posted by Yelsew:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by GraceSaves:
Ray,

Your entire post is bogus, because purgatory is a state that occurs after we are judged, not before.

God bless,

Grant
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The only thing in Scripture that says anything about judgment, is being cast into the lake of fire for those lacking faith in Jesus, and being given over to Jesus for those who do have faith in Jesus. There exists NO intermediary rest stops between judgment and punishment. Once an unbeliever is judged, the bailiff says "Go to Hell, Go directly to Hell, do not pass "GO". </font>[/QUOTE]Yelsew,

Since purgatory has nothing to do with hell or being on the way to hell, I cannot find the relevance of your post.

God bless,

Grant

Yelsew · Jun 7, 2003

It is the judgment that you spoke of that triggered my response. The judgment of man immediately precedes his reward or punishment which ever is appropriate. There is no purgatory after judgment.

Ray Berrian · Jun 7, 2003

There are two major judgments that our Lord will administer for human beings. The judgment of the wicked/sinners is called, "The Great White Throne Judgment." Only lost sinners will be called before His judicial proceedings. [Revelation 20:11-15] By the language of the Revelator you see, feel, and know that Jesus is speaking of non-Christians.

The judgment of God's people will take place at the what the Apostle Paul defines as the Judgment Seat of Christ. [Romans 14:10; II Corinthians 5:6-11] There is a vastly different tone to Paul's words in these passages. In the Roman passage Paul tells the church not to judge other believers; why? Because each one of them {and we Christians} will have to appear before Christ for evaluation. God was saying don't put a stumbling block in your brothers/sisters way, because we will all be required to stand before Him. In conclusion, there is not one final judgment day as most Christians have been taught early on in their lives. It's time for some to mature in their understanding.

In I John 2:2a God speaking through the Apostle John tell us that Christ has expiated and paid for all of the sins of Christians. Jesus will not place a saved soul in Purgatory or Hell because they have already been paid for on the Cross and via His eternal covenant with us.

Study I John 5:18 in the Greek and you will see that once we are born again, Christ will not return us to the diabolical plans that Satan has in mind for us. After your study you will see that this verse basicly means, that the One/Jesus who has begotten us to new life in Christ will keep us safe, spiritually speaking, so that the wicked one/the Devil cannot get a hold on our souls. Also, view [Romans 10:9 & John 10:27-30]

Incidentally, the New Century Version says, 'Yes, I am sure that neither death, nor life, no angels, nor ruling spirits, nothing now, nothing in the future, no powers, nothing above us, nothing below us, no anything else in the whole world {including the Christians sins} will ever be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.' Check your Douay Version; you will find a similar rendering.

BobRyan · Jun 8, 2003

Grant said --
Further, of course I will want to be out of the state of purgatory, because that means I will be in the full and complete presence of my Lord and Savior for ever and ever!
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So you're saying that the torment and suffering in purgatory is not going to bother you in the least?

Are you saying that God's word mentions purgatory?

Are you saying that anyone but a Catholic has any chance of believing in Purgatory?

A "few" Catholics on this board have claimed that they find Catholic doctrine supported "sola scriptura" - how about Purgatory?

Grant said --
You can try to make it depressing, and you might succeed for those who already reject purgatory or don't know what it is.
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How can anyone be "rejecting" what was never in God's Word to start with?

In Christ,

Bob

BobRyan · Jun 8, 2003

Many non-Catholics believe "The blood of Christ cleanses us from ALL sin".

However the Catholic model is that "only really really bad people go to hell". No matter what their religion.

For the rest - there is purgatory and for the very few - almost perfect people there is the express ticket directly to heaven.

So those that go to Purgatory will one day all be in heaven - but first "they must suffer" for "Some sins" from which "the blood of Christ did NOT cleanse".

However - the church is in a position to "take care of the sin that the blood of Christ misses" by "granting" you a plenary indulgence for your loved one.

So we have "sinful human priest - mediating like - Christ", and "Mary, Sinless like Christ" "Ruling in heaven - as the Queen Mother" and "church having dominion and authority over its own list of sins able to pardon - like Christ". It is truly a "partnership" in "being the Savior".

In Christ,

Bob

GraceSaves · Jun 8, 2003

Originally posted by BobRyan:
So you're saying that the torment and suffering in purgatory is not going to bother you in the least?
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The suffering in purgatory is equal and no greater than the joy of coming closer to the presense of our Lord. No, I do not fear it in the least.

Originally posted by BobRyan:
Are you saying that God's word mentions purgatory?
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Implicitly, most definitely. And you know what verses I will give you, so why do you ask? To make a show of me? You already know, and we do have Scriptural support.

Originally posted by BobRyan:
Are you saying that anyone but a Catholic has any chance of believing in Purgatory?
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Are you saying that anyone but a Christian has any chance of believing in Jesus Christ? No. The knowledge is there; it is up to the individual to return to the One, True Church from which all others have derivated from.

Originally posted by BobRyan:
A "few" Catholics on this board have claimed that they find Catholic doctrine supported "sola scriptura" - how about Purgatory?
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I haven't seen this, nor do I believe it. Catholic teachings are present in both Scripture and Tradition, both of which are the Word of God (one being written, one being oral).

Originally posted by BobRyan:
How can anyone be "rejecting" what was never in God's Word to start with?
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Simple: It was there to start with, and during the Protestant Reformation, and possibly in other schisms before that, it was rejected by people who wished to separate themselves from the Holy Catholic Church.

God bless,

Grant

BobRyan · Jun 8, 2003

The Faith Explained

"It is evident that no one can know 'How Long' Purgatory LASTS for any individual
soul. I have put "How Long" in quotes because, while there is DURATION beyond
the grave, there is no "time" as WE know it;..However whether we measure purgatory by DURATION or by INTENSITY the fact remains that a soul in Purgatory can NOT lessen its OWN sufferings. But WE the LIVING can "help that soul" by the mercy of God and the frequency of our remembrance." pg 181

Grant - I am glad you find this something to look forward to - while at other times wanting to get out of it as soon as possible.

I have to assume that yout "would want" friends and relatives to be "earning plenary indulgences" for you while you are stuck in there with the hope that one of them "might" actually go through and get you out EARLY - correct?

In Christ,

Bob

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