Purgatory Or The Judgment Seat of Christ?

[BobRyan]

quote:
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Originally posted by BobRyan:
Are you saying that God's word mentions purgatory?
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Grant said --

Implicitly, most definitely. And you know what verses I will give you, so why do you ask? To make a show of me? You already know, and we do have Scriptural support.

A "lot" has been posted on this topic on this thread so far - and still a little skiddish about actually "mentioning" that text?

Want to hold it out for "last"?

Are you "teasing us"?

quote:Bob
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Originally posted by BobRyan:
Are you saying that anyone but a Catholic has any chance of believing in Purgatory?
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Grant said --
Are you saying that anyone but a Christian has any chance of believing in Jesus Christ?

True - only a Christian with access to the Bible - and reading that Bible and "seeing" what it says about Christ - will be able to put their faith in Christ based on God's Word.

Non-Catholics already have God's Word. They already accept Christ "the Way the Truth and the Life" - but they are not going to "get to belief in Purgatory" that way. And we both know it.


quote:Bob
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Originally posted by BobRyan:
A "few" Catholics on this board have claimed that they find Catholic doctrine supported "sola scriptura" - how about Purgatory?
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Grant
I haven't seen this, nor do I believe it.

I appreciate your being honest and admitting that.

In the mean time a few Catholics here have stepped out an made such claims about their faith being supported by the Bible - in such a way that it can be TESTED by the Bible ALONE for accuracy.

Grant --
Catholic teachings are present in both Scripture and Tradition, both of which are the Word of God (one being written, one being oral).

"Teachings being present" in the Bible - any teachings? ALL teachings? ALL teachings "provable" and "testable" by the Bible - God's Word.

Acts 17 "Studying the scriptures DAILY to see WHETHER those things told them by the Apostle Paul - WERE SO?"

You mean "THAT" kind of Bible support for Catholic doctrine - such as purgatory?

quote:Bob
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Originally posted by BobRyan:
How can anyone be "rejecting" what was never in God's Word to start with?
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Grant
Simple: It was there to start with

OK - show it.

Show that the Jews of Christ day accepted it.

Show that the Christians of Christ day accepted it.

Show 'the document' they were using to teach the doctrine of "purgatory" (and I assume also - indulgences, the spiritual "bank" etc).


In Christ,

Bob

 

[neal4christ]

True - only a Christian with access to the Bible - and reading that Bible and "seeing" what it says about Christ - will be able to put their faith in Christ based on God's Word.

Are you saying that those who the apostles preached to were not really saved? And what of the ones before the printing press who claimed to be Christian yet could not read? And the masses people that professed to be Christian after hearing the gospel were not because they did not have a copy of God's Word and read it? Surely you are not advocating that, are you? I don't think being able to read God's Word is the prerequisite for one coming to faith in Christ.

Neal

 

[CatholicConvert]

There are two major judgments that our Lord will administer for human beings. The judgment of the wicked/sinners is called, "The Great White Throne Judgment." Only lost sinners will be called before His judicial proceedings. [Revelation 20:11-15] By the language of the Revelator you see, feel, and know that Jesus is speaking of non-Christians.

I see nothing of the sort other than once again you are reading into the text what you have been trained to believe.

Now -- let's go back to the words of Jesus our Lord:

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Combine this with the words of St. Paul:

Ro 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

This looks like a single "hour" of judgement to me, not a multitudinous event. In the same way, in Revelation, it says

Re 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

You are reading that as if it is stating that ALL who are there are not found in the book of life. I read it to say that there are people who are in the book and people who are not.

Furthermore, and this is most damning to the case by modern theologians (at least, in my opinion) the Early Fathers surely had a better understanding of these passages than we do, being quite familiar with the Greek and even with the apostles who wrote them. I am sure that there were numerous late night discussions during which time the Early Fathers picked the brains of the apostles to really come to a true understanding of exactly what Jesus was teaching.

How interesting then that the Early Fathers developed no such doctrines or teachings such as the Reformers and their descendants did. Someone is wrong, and I trust that the Early Fathers were not the wrong ones. As has been noted: "The closer to the source, the purer the stream."


The judgment of God's people will take place at the what the Apostle Paul defines as the Judgment Seat of Christ. [Romans 14:10; II Corinthians 5:6-11] There is a vastly different tone to Paul's words in these passages. In the Roman passage Paul tells the church not to judge other believers; why? Because each one of them {and we Christians} will have to appear before Christ for evaluation. God was saying don't put a stumbling block in your brothers/sisters way, because we will all be required to stand before Him. In conclusion, there is not one final judgment day as most Christians have been taught early on in their lives. It's time for some to mature in their understanding.

There is absolutely no chronological information in the above passages which would lead us to believe that there are two distinct and separate events in judgement: one for believers and one for non-believers. These verses are neutral at best regarding this. But the thrust of the verses in 2 Corinthians actually lends credence to our viewpoint. Look at 2 Corin. 5: 10. It says that we will recieve from Christ according to whether we have done "good or bad". Do you think Heaven is the final resting place of those who have DONE BAD???

Not according to Romans 2, which states that those who have done bad will receive eternal torment.

In I John 2:2a God speaking through the Apostle John tell us that Christ has expiated and paid for all of the sins of Christians. Jesus will not place a saved soul in Purgatory or Hell because they have already been paid for on the Cross and via His eternal covenant with us.

Once again you are reading into the text. The statement says that Jesus is the propiation for our sins, but it nowhere teaches that this propitiation is once applied and forever good. In fact, if this were the case, of what possible purpose is 1 John 1: 5 - 10 where we are exhorted to repent and BE CLEANSED. Those who are permanently cleansed need no further application!!!

And there is no such thing as an eternal covenant between man and God. The only eternal covenant is the relationship between the members of the Holy and Blessed Trinity. If you were to study covenantalism, you would soon understand that covenants are breakable.

Study I John 5:18 in the Greek and you will see that once we are born again, Christ will not return us to the diabolical plans that Satan has in mind for us. After your study you will see that this verse basicly means, that the One/Jesus who has begotten us to new life in Christ will keep us safe, spiritually speaking, so that the wicked one/the Devil cannot get a hold on our souls. Also, view [Romans 10:9 & John 10:27-30]

Yes, there is a promise to "the elect" that God will keep them to the end, but YOU nor I nor anyone else knows if he is of the elect. That is what the Judgement Seat is about.

Incidentally, the New Century Version says, 'Yes, I am sure that neither death, nor life, no angels, nor ruling spirits, nothing now, nothing in the future, no powers, nothing above us, nothing below us, no anything else in the whole world {including the Christians sins} will ever be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.' Check your Douay Version; you will find a similar rendering.

Then it contradicts St. Paul, who wrote and warned in all but one of his epistles that sin could make us forfeit the inheritance set aside for us.

You constantly appeal to the Greek, yet you must still answer me this -- WHY did the GREEK SPEAKING EARLY FATHERS not come up with the same doctrines which you espouse, which are those of the Reformers?

Cordially in Christ,

Brother Ed

 

[GraceSaves]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
The Faith Explained

"It is evident that no one can know 'How Long' Purgatory LASTS for any individual
soul. I have put "How Long" in quotes because, while there is DURATION beyond
the grave, there is no "time" as WE know it;..However whether we measure purgatory by DURATION or by INTENSITY the fact remains that a soul in Purgatory can NOT lessen its OWN sufferings. But WE the LIVING can "help that soul" by the mercy of God and the frequency of our remembrance." pg 181

Grant - I am glad you find this something to look forward to - while at other times wanting to get out of it as soon as possible.

I have to assume that yout "would want" friends and relatives to be "earning plenary indulgences" for you while you are stuck in there with the hope that one of them "might" actually go through and get you out EARLY - correct?

In Christ,

Bob

Bob, the only way your posts work is by twisting my words. This is why I do not trust you one bit.

Quote me when I said I was "looking forward to it." Otherwise, just stop quoting me, because I'm getting pretty tired of cleaning up your sloppy quoting. I believe it is a grace of God that He cleanses us of our sinful nature, and I am not afraid of it. That does not mean I "look forward to it." What I look forward to is the goal, Heaven. Just I do not look forward to facing persecution for my faith, I will accept it as grace.

God bless,

Grant

 

[GraceSaves]

Bob,

Here's a question for you:

If you are so honest and straightforward...

Why have you taken the time to post all of these Catholic sources on purgatory or indulgences...but none of our Scriptural support? You know we have it. I know you've read it. I know you have access to the book, chapter, and verse numbers for the support.

But you don't post it. You post Catholic sources, but leave out the important part to Protestants, and then accuse me of not having it, when you yourself did not post it because you wish to give the appearance for not having it.

My question is: I know you know of our Biblical support, so why don't you ever post the verses and then discuss them with me. That would be just as fruitful as me posting them. Instead, when I haven't posted them immediately, you make fun of me and attack me personally, pretending I'm hiding something (when they could be found by a 30-second Google search).

Thus, I'm about to get a shower and head to Mass, and when I get back, I'm going to post our Scriptural suppot with explanation. And then I'm not ever going to respond to your posts again. You cause me grief and heartache, you have no real charity or desire to share Jesus Christ with me, but only to diminish me and my faith.

I don't need your kind of attitude in my life right now. I had a two-hour discussion on purgatory with an Independant Fundamental Baptist yesterday, who disagreed just as fervently as you, and it never resorted to the attitude that you bring to the table. It is possible, but you do not wish to make it possible.

I'm sorry, Bob, and forgive me if I upset you. But this is it for me and you (at least for a long while).

God bless you,

Grant

P.S. Expect Scriptural evidence and explanation about 1:00PMish (CST).

 

[Ray Berrian]

You asked why is there such verses like I John chapter one toward the end of the chapter if Christians cannot lose their relationship to Jesus. God wants all of His people all of the time to confess their sins if or when they waver in their walk with God. Since I Corinthians 6:17 indicates that when we really believe in Jesus, we become ' . . . one spirit with our Lord.' Other verses in the Bible also indicate our eternal relationship with Christ such as John 10:27; I John 2:25; I John 5:13 just to get you started. What happens when a child of God sins is that that person breaks their 'fellowship' with the Lord Jesus, [I John 1:7] until that sin is confessed to Him.

My brother, no one earns a doctoral degree without studying the various covenants of God that He has made during the different ages of human history. Some of His covenants were temporary but some of them are eternal. Get yourself some theology books from Drs. Walvoord or J. Dwight Pentecost from Dallas Theological Seminary and they will instruct you correctly, or will at least give you new information to review. Your statements betray the fact that you probably don't know that we who have faith are part of the eternal covenant that God has made with Abraham. Thus, the Apostle Paul brings up this truth in Romans 4:5,8 and Romans 5:1 for starters.

You think and feel that no one can know for sure that they are saved, meaning, they will for sure, one day go to Heaven. God's Word witnesses against you thinking. Please, note Romans 8:16 which offers assurance to the new convert that 'The Spirit Himself bears witness with our {human} spirit that we are the children of God.' Also, consider I John 3:2 which says, 'Beloved, now are we the sons of God . . .' Also, John 3:16 that we learned while little children sitting around a Sunday School teacher. God makes no conditions to His promises and covenantal relationship to Him.

The Apostle Paul warned that soon after his departure from this life, now about 2,000 years ago that people would enter the churches and congregations with theological error. While the Roman Catholic Church brought us through the centuries, the Bible was chained to the pulpit, because no one was considered worthy of studying it because only the priesthood was trained to explain the words of Christ. The Medieval and Dark Ages were dark because of the lack of educational advancement through these years, plus the relative ignorance that the people experienced spiritually speaking.

Martin Luther broke out of the relative spiritual darkness in 1517. He did not want to start a Lutheran Church he was merely trying to enlighten and cleanse some of the error that had lodged in his church through the ages. And when we found out that he was saved only because of his faith, he could not keep it, if you will, 'under his hat.' From that point on he realized that the Apostle Paul was correct when he wrote that a man or woman has everlasting life, apart from the works of the Law. [Ephesians 2:8-9]

I have an appointment to keep, so I have to run. This will get you off and running.

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
However the Catholic model is ...

Bob, making up your opponents position for them so that you can prove it wrong, accomplishes nothing.

I challenge you to use relevant authorative Catholic sources to present the Catholic position before attempting to disprove it.

It is very obvious that you have no idea of what you are talking about when it comes to what Catholic actually believe.

Ron

 

[CatholicConvert]

Brother Ray --

My brother, no one earns a doctoral degree without studying the various covenants of God that He has made during the different ages of human history.

Study is one thing, but CORRECT study is quite another. It is one thing to be trained in error, to memorize it, to find its texts easily, and to be able to bring forth verse which seem to support the error, but it is still error.

Some of His covenants were temporary but some of them are eternal.

Sorry. That is simply wrong. It is the view of the Reformers, who used not the Jewish family as the covenantal model, but the Roman courtroom. Contracts are unbreakable. We do not make a legal contract with God. We enter into a covenantal relationship with Him through Christ, and like all relationships, that can be severed. The proper picture of a covenant is found in Ezekial 16:8

Eze 16:8 Now when I passed by thee, and looked upon thee, behold, thy time was the time of love; and I spread my skirt over thee, and covered thy nakedness: yea, I sware unto thee, and entered into a covenant with thee, saith the Lord GOD, and thou becamest mine.

This is a relationship, not a contract. Contracts are barren and sterile of life. Relationships involve union and love.

Get yourself some theology books from Drs. Walvoord or J. Dwight Pentecost from Dallas Theological Seminary and they will instruct you correctly, or will at least give you new information to review.

I read both of these men when I was a young man. I would suggest you get Scott Hahn's discourses on the Covenant of God as well as Ray Sutton's book THAT YOU MAY PROSPER -- Dominion by Covenant.

Your statements betray the fact that you probably don't know that we who have faith are part of the eternal covenant that God has made with Abraham.

That eternal covenant is a corporate covenant with the kingdom people, the nation of God on earth, not with individuals. We make an individual covenant when we enter into the kingdom by baptism.

The eternal covenant cannot be broken because Christ ever lives to make intercession for the Church, which is His Bride. Therefore, She can never be taken out of the relationship because Her sins, as the Bride of Christ, are constantly being offered a YOM KIPPUR by the Great High Priest. However, our sins can and do take us out of the covenantal relationship we have with God.


The Spirit Himself bears witness with our {human} spirit that we are the children of God.'

Indeed. But once again you fail to apply the typology of a child to the family, thus failing to take more than a single verse for your proof text.

As children of God, we have an inheritance. That inheritance is eternal life. But like children, we can lose the inheritance. A wicked child is likely to be disinherited here on earth. And a rebellious and wicked child who turns from the covenantal relationship with his Father, and who leaves the family of God, will be disinherited.

The Holy Spirit is called "the earnest of our inheritance". Notice that He is not called "the fullness of our inheritance" but only the "earnest". Now judging from your posts to me, I believe you are old enough to remember the term "earnest money". Earnest money is a small part of the whole, given as a pledge and a promise that if the terms of the arrangement are kept, the rest will follow upon completion of the agreement. That is what the Holy Spirit is to our salvation -- He is the small deposit of Heaven in us which promises the full amount IF we remain FAITHFUL to our covenantal pledge which we made in baptism.

Covenants have oaths/sanctions. You do not enter into a covenant relationship without pledging certain promises and also vowing that if you break these promises, you will lose the promised benefits of the relationship. Look at Deut. 28 for an example of this.

Also, consider I John 3:2 which says, 'Beloved, now are we the sons of God . . .' Also, John 3:16 that we learned while little children sitting around a Sunday School teacher.

God makes no conditions to His promises and covenantal relationship to Him.

Then it is not a covenant, for covenants have conditions. They have oaths/promises. Again, you are describing a contract, not a covenantal relationship.

The Apostle Paul warned that soon after his departure from this life, now about 2,000 years ago that people would enter the churches and congregations with theological error.

Yup. That's what all the councils of the Church were all about. And they were promptly shown the back door to the Church -- they and their errors. This includes the errors of the Reformation.

You seem to forget that the warning of St. Paul does not negate the promise of Christ to the Church "the gates of hell WILL NOT prevail against Her.."

While the Roman Catholic Church brought us through the centuries, the Bible was chained to the pulpit, because no one was considered worthy of studying it because only the priesthood was trained to explain the words of Christ.

Well, considering the absolute chaos which is Protestantism, seems like they had a pretty good understanding, didn't they? Look at what your so called "right to private interpretation" has gotten you, Ray!! THOUSANDS of denominations when Jesus said that He was going to build one Church. Have one Bride!!! This is not Christianity, this is rebellion, with everyone arguing with each other, and meanwhile the pagans must think Christianity to be a religion of fools and knaves. Imagine some pagan village into which come 40 or 50 missionaries from 40 or 50 differing theologies of Christianity. I'd personally tell them to keep their confused and stupid religion and go away!!

No such confusion exists in the Catholic Faith. We have one catechism, one Faith defined by that Catechism, and to be Catholic, you MUST subscribe to what the Church teaches. That is unity.

Martin Luther broke out of the relative spiritual darkness in 1517. He did not want to start a Lutheran Church he was merely trying to enlighten and cleanse some of the error that had lodged in his church through the ages.

You need to read Hilaire Belloc's HOW THE REFORMATION HAPPENED. There was MUCH MUCH more to the Reformation than doctrine, but doctrine became the rallying point to justify the rebellion against the Church.

And when we found out that he was saved only because of his faith, he could not keep it, if you will, 'under his hat.'

Luther was mentally ill. Read some of the biographies of the man. In addition, he had no faith in Christ. Christ Jesus promised that if we would submit to the Sacraments of the Church, He would faithfully perform what He had promised to perform -- salvation. This is liberation.

I cannot begin to tell you how many times I "trotted the aisle" because I couldn't get "assurance of faith". You see, I knew that if my salvation depended upon my "making a decision with ALL YOUR HEART" or "with a RIGHT HEART" I was TOAST!! I knew that my heart was wicked through and through, decietful and liable to error and self-delusion. Thus -- no assurance. But now I have the assurance that having entered into the covenantal relatioship in the manner prescribed by God, He is faithful to save me regardless of my disposition or inner strength.

Luther didn't trust that God really meant it when He promised "and whosoever's sins ye remit, they are remitted". On top of that, he was scrupulous to a point of ridiculousness. Five hours in a confessional is the sin of a sick mind which is not focused on God and His grace, but on himself.

From that point on he realized that the Apostle Paul was correct when he wrote that a man or woman has everlasting life, apart from the works of the Law. [Ephesians 2:8-9]

St. Paul was writing that to show the Jews that their boast of circumcision, which is the "works of the law" could not save them. Because the Reformers redefined this to mean "any works at all" Germany became a cesspool of immorality during Luther's lifetime. After all, if you are "once saved - always saved" by faith alone, what difference does it make how you live? And the peasants, simple folk that they were, took that at face value and turned Germany into a moral sewer.

Ray, you are well trained in what you have been taught, but unfortunately, it is simply wrong. It was never taught prior to the Reformation, and it cannot be supported by an overview of THE WHOLE OF SCRIPTURE. The only way is to dissect verses out of context of the rest of the Scriptures and make up doctrine.

And you and I will never see eye to eye on what you believe is a covenant.

Cordially in Christ and the Blessed Virgin,


Brother Ed

 

[BobRyan]

Grant writes -Why have you taken the time to post all of these Catholic sources on purgatory or indulgences...but none of our Scriptural support?

Obviously - because I don't think you have any.

And - last time I checked - I am not the one that is in the position of having to defend your position. I am just giving a few quotes showing the basic teaching - not "defending it".

I am supposing that there is a Catholic or two on this board that will be inclined to argue the case "for it".

I could be wrong about that.

Grant said --
You know we have it. I know you've read it. I know you have access to the book, chapter, and verse numbers for the support.

Why spend all the time to hint around - go ahead and show your "scriptural support" for purgatory.

I wait for it. As far as I know there is no scriptural support for Purgatory in the form of a document that any non-Catholic would be inclined to accdept.

Grant -

But you don't post it. You post Catholic sources, but leave out the important part to Protestants, and then accuse me of not having it, when you yourself did not post it because you wish to give the appearance for not having it.

I am not the source of Catholic Doctrine and support for Purgatory. My position is that you or some other Catholic member will gladly take up that cause.

But that seems to be a problem at the moment.

Grant -

My question is: I know you know of our Biblical support, so why don't you ever post the verses and then discuss them with me.

I am more than happy to discuss any scripture you choose to select as support for Purgatory.

Why spend all this time talking about what "might result" if the scripture in favor of your position existed and were posted. Go ahead and post it.

Grant
That would be just as fruitful as me posting them. Instead, when I haven't posted them immediately, you make fun of me and attack me personally, pretending I'm hiding something (when they could be found by a 30-second Google search).

Thus, I'm about to get a shower and head to Mass, and when I get back, I'm going to post our Scriptural suppot with explanation.

I applaud that approach.

Thank you.

Grant
And then I'm not ever going to respond to your posts again. You cause me grief and heartache, you have no real charity or desire to share Jesus Christ with me, but only to diminish me and my faith.

I am quite surprised by that statement.

It is not my intent to cause grief or heartache in any way shape or form. You are already aware of the fact that I am not Catholic and do not place a lot of "credit" in Catholic sources as "proof" of anything other than the fact that they are representing catholic views.

I have been accused repeatedly of NOT using Catholic source - even though I am one of the most prolific posters on this board of RC sources that make my point.

Sometimes I do not quote them - I simply paraphrase them to see if a RC member will jump on that and pretend that no catholic source actually says it - when we all know the Catholic sources are rich in statments to that regard.

Quite often the RC posts land pretty hard on my position. I don't take offense at that - I know that they are simply showing strong enthusiasm to support the RC viewpoint.

But what I "would" like is as much focus on the actual Bible texts for a given RC doctrine - that the RC position can possibly tolerate. As I am sure all Catholics have come to "expect" of non-Catholic views. You guys know we need the Bible as "common ground" between Protestants and Catholics. If you want my Bible texts on why Purgatory is not even a remote possibility, I am glad to give them. But I wanted the full story on Purgatory to come out - defining what it is and what it is not - as the first step.

And since I have no Bible text that mentions it - I am a poor one to ask for the Bible text that supports "Purgatory" or one that any non-Catholic might accept as authorotative.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Yelsew]

Grant said --
You can try to make it depressing, and you might succeed for those who already reject purgatory or don't know what it is.

O.K. STOP! I am one who does not know what purgatory really is. I do not have a clue. I've heard of it from Catholics, but I have not heard a rational explanation of what it is.

If there is any among you who knows specifically what purgatory is, please first describe it in a manner that any human would recognize it if coming upon it or finds one's self in it. Second, Please explain its purpose and where in the Holy Scriptures (even in the Apocrypha) where there is a reference to it.

 

[BobRyan]

Ron said --
Bob, making up your opponents position for them so that you can prove it wrong, accomplishes nothing.

I challenge you to use relevant authorative Catholic sources to present the Catholic position before attempting to disprove it.

It is very obvious that you have no idea of what you are talking about

Ron - I hope you don't mind if I post the Catholic sources that I have already posted on this thread - and that you are ignoring in order to claim that I am not using Catholic source.

In the mean time...The RCC teaches us that..

The Faith Explained
Catholic Commentary on the Baltimore Catechism post Vatican II

"It is evident that no one can know 'How Long' Purgatory LASTS for any individual
soul. I have put "How Long" in quotes because, while there is DURATION beyond
the grave, there is no "time" as WE know it;..However whether we measure purgatory by DURATION or by INTENSITY the fact remains that a soul in Purgatory can NOT lessen its OWN sufferings. But WE the LIVING can "help that soul" by the mercy of God and the frequency of our remembrance." pg 181

"The moment the soul leaves the body it is exposed to the full power of God's 'Pull'
upon the soul. Crazed with hunger for God the soul beats ITSELF against the barriers of its OWN remaining IMPERFECTIONS UNTIL FINALLY it is purged" Pg 180

Indulgence "The remission granted by the church of the temporal punishment due to sin ALREADY forgiven" TFE - 469

"This was effected through the TRANSFER to the repentant sinner of the satisfactory VALUE of the martyr’s suffering..That is the origin of the system of MEASURING indulgences which the Church uses to the present day." pg 471

"An indulgence of 300 days, for example, does not mean three hundred days less
in Purgatory. It means that when a 300 day indulgence is granted it will remit as
much of the TEMPORAL punishment DUE to sin as would be remitted IF the
person did 300 days TEMPORAL public penance according to the discipline of the ancient Church". pg 471.

"Examples of such penance were wearing rough sackcloth with ashes sprinkled on the head, fasting, scourging one's body, retiring to a monastery, kneeling at the Church door or wandering as a beggar through the countryside" pg 471.

"Thus if I devoutly say 'My Jesus, Mercy!" a HUNDRED times during the day, then a HUNDRED times I GAIN an indulgence of THREE HUNDRED days." Pg 475

"Because Jesus is God, everything He did and suffered was of infinite value. By His
life and death He established an inexhaustible store of satisfactory merit. To this has been added the satisfaction of the saints which were beyond their own needs" Pg 472

"If we were to gain a fully a plenary indulgence and were to die immediately afterwards we would be with God in heaven immediately, without any need for ATONEMENT in Purgatory. IN PRACTICE, we SELDOM can be CERTAIN that we have gained a plenary Indulgence in its FULLNESS. (to really gain it) means that we have true sorrow for ALL venial sins as well as mortal AND that we be resolved to avoid ALL deliberate venial sins, AS WELL as mortal in the future. It is not often that we can be confident that our renunciation of sin is so ALL-embracing." p473

"It scarcely needs emphasizing that another condition for gaining an indulgence is that we carry out exactly, according to the time, place and manner prescribed, ALL the requirements which the Church lays down for the gaining of any particular indulgence" P 474

"It should be observed that we CANNOT apply the indulgences which we gain to ANY other LIVING persons. IN this matter each of us has to WORK OFF HIS OWN DEBT. However, we CAN APPLY most indulgences to the souls in Purgatory. In fact ALL the indulgences granted by the Holy Father, unless the contrary is expressly stated, MAY be applied to the suffering souls (in Purgatory" P 477

"SINCE the Church has DIRECT AUTHORITY over her living members, the indulgences which we gain FOR OURSELVES are ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN... The Church however does NOT have direct authority over the souls in Purgatory. Indulgences for THEM are offered by way of suffrage - a petition to God begging Him to apply the indulgence to a particular soul...Whether or NOT the indulgence is APPLIED to the soul rests with the mercy of God. We can HOPE that the specified soul will receive the indulgence which we have gained for him; but since we can not know for CERTAIN, the Church allows us to offer more than ONE PLENARY indulgence fo the same departed soul" P477

"An example of a plenary indulgence which may be gained many times is the one for ALL Soul's Day. For every visit made to a church on that day, with the Our Father, Hail Mary, and Glory be to Father recited SIX times for the intentions of the Pope, we may gain a plenary indulgence for the SUFFERING souls". Pg 475

In Christ,

Bob

[ June 08, 2003, 02:55 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

 

[SolaScriptura in 2003]

(Mat 5:25-26 KJV) Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison. {26} Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.

"Back in the day" there was a heresy that taught the transmigration of souls based on the above passage. In order to combat this heresy, a certain theologian came up with what he thought was a better interpretation of the passage. Although this interpretation is better than transmigration of souls, it is just as wrong, because it is also based on the false assumption that this passage is an allegory, when the fact is that this passage is a literal teaching.

This theologian (Tertullian in A Treatise on the Soul) said:

Agree with the devil (your adversary) quickly before he turns you over to God (the judge) and God turn you over to an angel (the officer) and the angel (officer) cast you into hell (prison) and you don't get out until you pay for all your sins (the last farthing). [this was a paraphrase]

Later, Augustine cleaned up the obvious problems with this interpretation (namely that it required people to "agree" with Satan and that it taught that people could get out of hell). Augustine changed the adversary to God (so that people wouldn't have to agree with the devil) and hell to purgatory (so it didn't teach that hell is non-eternal).

So, now we can see that ignorant manner in which the false doctrine of purgatory was created. The passage literally means that if someone has a case against you, settle it out of court so that you don't end up in jail for a long time! The context will show that it is literal.

[ June 08, 2003, 03:57 PM: Message edited by: SolaScriptura in 2003 ]

 

[GraceSaves]

Short description of purgatory from the Catechism:

Purgatory is "a state of final purification after death and before entrance into heaven for those who died in God's friendship, but were only imperfectly purified; a final cleansing of human imperfection before one is able to enter the joy of heaven (CCC p. 896).

Let's look at a few key words here:

state
Purgatory is not a place or a physical realm. Earth, heaven, hell: these are all places. Purgatory is a state, and a temporal one (unlike heaven and hell, which are eternal).

final purifcation
We cannot purify our selves, and this explanation attests to that. We are only purified by the Blood of the Lamb, Jesus Christ. As Catholics, we do not believe that at some point in our lives, we are completely purified. For obvious reasons, as well. Although we are "saved," we still sin. We are not perfect, and we will most likely die "unperfect."

Now, Scripture tells us in regards to Heaven, that "nothing unclean will enter it." (Rev. 21:27) Thus, when we are in Heaven, we will be perfect; that is a prerequesite! And yet, when we die, we are still sinners (saved by the grace of God, yes, but still sinners). Thus, purgatory serves as the final step in our purification, in which our sinful nature is "purged" (hence, "purgatory") so that we are all nice and shiney for Heaven. This is done BY God (not ourselves), and is done because of Christ's sacrifice (not ourselves).

died in God's friendship
Only those who have died in the friendship of God would be in the temporary state of purgatory. This is determined when we are judged. Those judged guilty will be sent to hell, while those judged "in God's friendship" will be sent to heaven. Thus, as a final preparation, we are completely cleansed and made ready for entry into perfection.

imperfectly purified
This is what I was saying earlier. Even though we be saved, we still sin, and are not "perfect." Purgatory puts us in this state.

Will purgatory be painful? No doubt. Will it be joyous? No doubt. Painful as our sinful nature is burned away, joyous as we approach the throne of Almighty God Himself. I suppose you could call it "tough love."

Now, Scripturally, can we acknowledge that some state outside of Heaven and Hell exists, after one dies? Most certainly. I assume we all believe that with Jesus death and resurrection He conquered death, and thus opened the gates of Heaven for all who have died in the faith.

Before Jesus' sacrifice, he told the parable of Lazarus, in which He said, "When the poor man died, he was carried away by the angels to the bosom of Abraham." (Luke 16:22)

In Ephesians 4:8 we see that at the ascension, Jesus "took prisoners captive," in other words, taking those people who had died and were waiting in "Abraham's bosom" into Heaven with Him.

Further, in the book of II Maccabees (which you do not accept as the Holy Word of God, but nonetheless was written before the time of Jesus Christ), we see the belief in a temporary state of purification:

"He then took up a collection among all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice. In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gont to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin." (2 Macc 12:43-46)

Of course, I see it as no wonder these books were rejected by the Jewish leaders around 90AD when they formed their canon, considering it all sounds very Christian, but that is just my personal opinion on the matter.

This of course is in line with the prophet Zechariah:

"In all the land, says the LORD, two thirds of them shall be cut off and perish, and one third shall be left. I will bring the one third through fire, and I will refine them as silver is refined, and I will test them as gold is tested." (Zech 13:8-9)

This is reaffirmed in the New Testament by St. Paul:

"the work of each will come to light, for the Day ["Day of Yahweh," the day of judgement) will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire [itself] will test the quality of each one's work. If the work stands that soundone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. But if someone's work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire." (1 Cor. 3:13-15)

Hopefully this will clear some things up.

God bless,

Grant

[ June 08, 2003, 07:06 PM: Message edited by: GraceSaves ]

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
However the Catholic model is that "only really really bad people go to hell". No matter what their religion.

Bob, this is an example where you simply make something up and present it as Catholic teaching.

Please site your authoritative source for this.

 

[trying2understand]

 

[GraceSaves]

I was unable to fine a copy of the book that Bob cites for his sources on the Internet. If someone else has better luck, I'd greatly appreciate it (author, publisher...something else to go on).

God bless,

Grant

 

[BobRyan]

quote:Bob
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted
by BobRyan:
However the Catholic model is that "only really really bad people go to hell". No matter what their religion.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Neal
Bob, this is an example where you simply make something up and present it as Catholic teaching.

"Only those who die with Mortal sin upon their soul - go to hell"

"The Soul that has chosen self in preference to God and which has died without turning back to God, In other words the Soul that has died in the state of mortal sin..it is in hell" The Faith Explained p 177

Of course what if you are spotlessly perfect? Then when you die you go to heaven - but what about the vast majority?

"WE do not EXPECT to die with a soul so spotlessly pure" Pg 178

"what if, when we die, the Particular Judgment finds us NEITHER Severed from God by mortal sin, NOR yet with that Perfect purity of soul Required for Union with the All Holy God? This indeed is Very Likely to BE the case! Pg 179

So here we are in Jdugment - NEITHER deserving of Hell Nor fit for heaven. What becomes of Us?

It is here that the Doctrine of Purgatory manifests eminent reasonableness" TFE pg 180

Of course Pope John Paul has made even more outright claims to the salvation status of even non-Christian religions.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by GraceSaves:
I was unable to fine a copy of the book that Bob cites for his sources on the Internet. If someone else has better luck, I'd greatly appreciate it (author, publisher...something else to go on).

The Faith Explained.

Leo J. Trese

Fides Publishers, Inc. Notre Dame, Indiana

 

[Ray Berrian]

Catholic Convert,

I believe you said, 'Look at what your so called "right to private interpretation" has gotten you, Ray!!'

If you, in the distant past, were at least a somewhat versed Presbyterian you would know as a Protestant ' . . . that {we believe} no prophecy of the Scripture is of any private interpretation.' [II Peter 1:20]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think you said you moved from the position of a dispensationalist, to covenant theology and then into Presbyterianism and now Roman Catholicism.

Most major doctrines of the church are believed by all denominations. Each denomination has its own emphasis coming out of the Bible. Any disunity within our churches comes from those who claim to be Christian but have never experienced a new spiritual birth. [John 3:3] Some whole denominations are merely a social club; does it sound familiar in some of your churches? I think most people would concede that Christian churches other than Catholic are more versed in the study of the Scriptures.

We have no 'private interpretation' as you suggested. Our Christian leadership study through strong hermaneutical laws, Hebrew and Greek, leading to true Biblical interpretation. When there is agreement and we have the guidance of the Spirit we are assured that therein is truth.

My brother I was not born last night. Just because the Pope distributes a Christian catechism does not mean that many do not disagree with her {meaning the church's] findings. I personally know many Catholics who do not follow the church's concept and guidance as to contraception. And how many Catholics, in high political places, are there who strongly disregard her view of abortion. I along with you, agree that abortion is a horrible sin. Your church has a lot of disunity just as in our denominations.

 

[GraceSaves]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Your church has a lot of disunity just as in our denominations.

The disunity is in disobediant Catholics, not in the Church's doctrines. The two are not equal (doctrines and people), and so you cannot attempt to equate them. Those Catholics going against Church teachings, knowingly, willinging, and unrepentantly, are hardly Catholics at all (except in namesake). This is why we need such a strong reform in Christian education, something that I believe will be the next revitalization within our Church!

God bless,

Grant