Purgatory Or The Judgment Seat of Christ?

quote:
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Originally posted by BobRyan:
Are you saying that God's word mentions purgatory?
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A "lot" has been posted on this topic on this thread so far - and still a little skiddish about actually "mentioning" that text?

Want to hold it out for "last"?

Are you "teasing us"?

quote:Bob
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Originally posted by BobRyan:
Are you saying that anyone but a Catholic has any chance of believing in Purgatory?
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True - only a Christian with access to the Bible - and reading that Bible and "seeing" what it says about Christ - will be able to put their faith in Christ based on God's Word.

Non-Catholics already have God's Word. They already accept Christ "the Way the Truth and the Life" - but they are not going to "get to belief in Purgatory" that way. And we both know it.


quote:Bob
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Originally posted by BobRyan:
A "few" Catholics on this board have claimed that they find Catholic doctrine supported "sola scriptura" - how about Purgatory?
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I appreciate your being honest and admitting that.

In the mean time a few Catholics here have stepped out an made such claims about their faith being supported by the Bible - in such a way that it can be TESTED by the Bible ALONE for accuracy.

"Teachings being present" in the Bible - any teachings? ALL teachings? ALL teachings "provable" and "testable" by the Bible - God's Word.

Acts 17 "Studying the scriptures DAILY to see WHETHER those things told them by the Apostle Paul - WERE SO?"

You mean "THAT" kind of Bible support for Catholic doctrine - such as purgatory?

quote:Bob
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Originally posted by BobRyan:
How can anyone be "rejecting" what was never in God's Word to start with?
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OK - show it.

Show that the Jews of Christ day accepted it.

Show that the Christians of Christ day accepted it.

Show 'the document' they were using to teach the doctrine of "purgatory" (and I assume also - indulgences, the spiritual "bank" etc).


In Christ,

Bob

 

Are you saying that those who the apostles preached to were not really saved? And what of the ones before the printing press who claimed to be Christian yet could not read? And the masses people that professed to be Christian after hearing the gospel were not because they did not have a copy of God's Word and read it? Surely you are not advocating that, are you? I don't think being able to read God's Word is the prerequisite for one coming to faith in Christ.

Neal

 

Bob, the only way your posts work is by twisting my words. This is why I do not trust you one bit.

Quote me when I said I was "looking forward to it." Otherwise, just stop quoting me, because I'm getting pretty tired of cleaning up your sloppy quoting. I believe it is a grace of God that He cleanses us of our sinful nature, and I am not afraid of it. That does not mean I "look forward to it." What I look forward to is the goal, Heaven. Just I do not look forward to facing persecution for my faith, I will accept it as grace.

God bless,

Grant

 

Bob,

Here's a question for you:

If you are so honest and straightforward...

Why have you taken the time to post all of these Catholic sources on purgatory or indulgences...but none of our Scriptural support? You know we have it. I know you've read it. I know you have access to the book, chapter, and verse numbers for the support.

But you don't post it. You post Catholic sources, but leave out the important part to Protestants, and then accuse me of not having it, when you yourself did not post it because you wish to give the appearance for not having it.

My question is: I know you know of our Biblical support, so why don't you ever post the verses and then discuss them with me. That would be just as fruitful as me posting them. Instead, when I haven't posted them immediately, you make fun of me and attack me personally, pretending I'm hiding something (when they could be found by a 30-second Google search).

Thus, I'm about to get a shower and head to Mass, and when I get back, I'm going to post our Scriptural suppot with explanation. And then I'm not ever going to respond to your posts again. You cause me grief and heartache, you have no real charity or desire to share Jesus Christ with me, but only to diminish me and my faith.

I don't need your kind of attitude in my life right now. I had a two-hour discussion on purgatory with an Independant Fundamental Baptist yesterday, who disagreed just as fervently as you, and it never resorted to the attitude that you bring to the table. It is possible, but you do not wish to make it possible.

I'm sorry, Bob, and forgive me if I upset you. But this is it for me and you (at least for a long while).

God bless you,

Grant

P.S. Expect Scriptural evidence and explanation about 1:00PMish (CST).

 

Bob, making up your opponents position for them so that you can prove it wrong, accomplishes nothing.

I challenge you to use relevant authorative Catholic sources to present the Catholic position before attempting to disprove it.

It is very obvious that you have no idea of what you are talking about when it comes to what Catholic actually believe.

Ron

 

Brother Ray --

Ray, you are well trained in what you have been taught, but unfortunately, it is simply wrong. It was never taught prior to the Reformation, and it cannot be supported by an overview of THE WHOLE OF SCRIPTURE. The only way is to dissect verses out of context of the rest of the Scriptures and make up doctrine.

And you and I will never see eye to eye on what you believe is a covenant.

Cordially in Christ and the Blessed Virgin,


Brother Ed

 

Obviously - because I don't think you have any.

And - last time I checked - I am not the one that is in the position of having to defend your position. I am just giving a few quotes showing the basic teaching - not "defending it".

I am supposing that there is a Catholic or two on this board that will be inclined to argue the case "for it".

I could be wrong about that.

Why spend all the time to hint around - go ahead and show your "scriptural support" for purgatory.

I wait for it. As far as I know there is no scriptural support for Purgatory in the form of a document that any non-Catholic would be inclined to accdept.

I am not the source of Catholic Doctrine and support for Purgatory. My position is that you or some other Catholic member will gladly take up that cause.

But that seems to be a problem at the moment.

I am more than happy to discuss any scripture you choose to select as support for Purgatory.

Why spend all this time talking about what "might result" if the scripture in favor of your position existed and were posted. Go ahead and post it.

I applaud that approach.

Thank you.

I am quite surprised by that statement.

It is not my intent to cause grief or heartache in any way shape or form. You are already aware of the fact that I am not Catholic and do not place a lot of "credit" in Catholic sources as "proof" of anything other than the fact that they are representing catholic views.

I have been accused repeatedly of NOT using Catholic source - even though I am one of the most prolific posters on this board of RC sources that make my point.

Sometimes I do not quote them - I simply paraphrase them to see if a RC member will jump on that and pretend that no catholic source actually says it - when we all know the Catholic sources are rich in statments to that regard.

Quite often the RC posts land pretty hard on my position. I don't take offense at that - I know that they are simply showing strong enthusiasm to support the RC viewpoint.

But what I "would" like is as much focus on the actual Bible texts for a given RC doctrine - that the RC position can possibly tolerate. As I am sure all Catholics have come to "expect" of non-Catholic views. You guys know we need the Bible as "common ground" between Protestants and Catholics. If you want my Bible texts on why Purgatory is not even a remote possibility, I am glad to give them. But I wanted the full story on Purgatory to come out - defining what it is and what it is not - as the first step.

And since I have no Bible text that mentions it - I am a poor one to ask for the Bible text that supports "Purgatory" or one that any non-Catholic might accept as authorotative.

In Christ,

Bob

 

O.K. STOP! I am one who does not know what purgatory really is. I do not have a clue. I've heard of it from Catholics, but I have not heard a rational explanation of what it is.

If there is any among you who knows specifically what purgatory is, please first describe it in a manner that any human would recognize it if coming upon it or finds one's self in it. Second, Please explain its purpose and where in the Holy Scriptures (even in the Apocrypha) where there is a reference to it.

 

Ron - I hope you don't mind if I post the Catholic sources that I have already posted on this thread - and that you are ignoring in order to claim that I am not using Catholic source.

In Christ,

Bob

[ June 08, 2003, 02:55 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

 

(Mat 5:25-26 KJV) Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison. {26} Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.

"Back in the day" there was a heresy that taught the transmigration of souls based on the above passage. In order to combat this heresy, a certain theologian came up with what he thought was a better interpretation of the passage. Although this interpretation is better than transmigration of souls, it is just as wrong, because it is also based on the false assumption that this passage is an allegory, when the fact is that this passage is a literal teaching.

This theologian (Tertullian in A Treatise on the Soul) said:

Agree with the devil (your adversary) quickly before he turns you over to God (the judge) and God turn you over to an angel (the officer) and the angel (officer) cast you into hell (prison) and you don't get out until you pay for all your sins (the last farthing). [this was a paraphrase]

Later, Augustine cleaned up the obvious problems with this interpretation (namely that it required people to "agree" with Satan and that it taught that people could get out of hell). Augustine changed the adversary to God (so that people wouldn't have to agree with the devil) and hell to purgatory (so it didn't teach that hell is non-eternal).

So, now we can see that ignorant manner in which the false doctrine of purgatory was created. The passage literally means that if someone has a case against you, settle it out of court so that you don't end up in jail for a long time! The context will show that it is literal.

[ June 08, 2003, 03:57 PM: Message edited by: SolaScriptura in 2003 ]

 

Short description of purgatory from the Catechism:

Purgatory is "a state of final purification after death and before entrance into heaven for those who died in God's friendship, but were only imperfectly purified; a final cleansing of human imperfection before one is able to enter the joy of heaven (CCC p. 896).

Let's look at a few key words here:

state
Purgatory is not a place or a physical realm. Earth, heaven, hell: these are all places. Purgatory is a state, and a temporal one (unlike heaven and hell, which are eternal).

final purifcation
We cannot purify our selves, and this explanation attests to that. We are only purified by the Blood of the Lamb, Jesus Christ. As Catholics, we do not believe that at some point in our lives, we are completely purified. For obvious reasons, as well. Although we are "saved," we still sin. We are not perfect, and we will most likely die "unperfect."

Now, Scripture tells us in regards to Heaven, that "nothing unclean will enter it." (Rev. 21:27) Thus, when we are in Heaven, we will be perfect; that is a prerequesite! And yet, when we die, we are still sinners (saved by the grace of God, yes, but still sinners). Thus, purgatory serves as the final step in our purification, in which our sinful nature is "purged" (hence, "purgatory") so that we are all nice and shiney for Heaven. This is done BY God (not ourselves), and is done because of Christ's sacrifice (not ourselves).

died in God's friendship
Only those who have died in the friendship of God would be in the temporary state of purgatory. This is determined when we are judged. Those judged guilty will be sent to hell, while those judged "in God's friendship" will be sent to heaven. Thus, as a final preparation, we are completely cleansed and made ready for entry into perfection.

imperfectly purified
This is what I was saying earlier. Even though we be saved, we still sin, and are not "perfect." Purgatory puts us in this state.

Will purgatory be painful? No doubt. Will it be joyous? No doubt. Painful as our sinful nature is burned away, joyous as we approach the throne of Almighty God Himself. I suppose you could call it "tough love."

Now, Scripturally, can we acknowledge that some state outside of Heaven and Hell exists, after one dies? Most certainly. I assume we all believe that with Jesus death and resurrection He conquered death, and thus opened the gates of Heaven for all who have died in the faith.

Before Jesus' sacrifice, he told the parable of Lazarus, in which He said, "When the poor man died, he was carried away by the angels to the bosom of Abraham." (Luke 16:22)

In Ephesians 4:8 we see that at the ascension, Jesus "took prisoners captive," in other words, taking those people who had died and were waiting in "Abraham's bosom" into Heaven with Him.

Further, in the book of II Maccabees (which you do not accept as the Holy Word of God, but nonetheless was written before the time of Jesus Christ), we see the belief in a temporary state of purification:

"He then took up a collection among all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice. In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gont to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin." (2 Macc 12:43-46)

Of course, I see it as no wonder these books were rejected by the Jewish leaders around 90AD when they formed their canon, considering it all sounds very Christian, but that is just my personal opinion on the matter.

This of course is in line with the prophet Zechariah:

"In all the land, says the LORD, two thirds of them shall be cut off and perish, and one third shall be left. I will bring the one third through fire, and I will refine them as silver is refined, and I will test them as gold is tested." (Zech 13:8-9)

This is reaffirmed in the New Testament by St. Paul:

"the work of each will come to light, for the Day ["Day of Yahweh," the day of judgement) will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire [itself] will test the quality of each one's work. If the work stands that soundone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. But if someone's work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire." (1 Cor. 3:13-15)

Hopefully this will clear some things up.

God bless,

Grant

[ June 08, 2003, 07:06 PM: Message edited by: GraceSaves ]

 

Bob, this is an example where you simply make something up and present it as Catholic teaching.

Please site your authoritative source for this.

 

I was unable to fine a copy of the book that Bob cites for his sources on the Internet. If someone else has better luck, I'd greatly appreciate it (author, publisher...something else to go on).

God bless,

Grant

 

quote:Bob
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Originally posted
by BobRyan:
However the Catholic model is that "only really really bad people go to hell". No matter what their religion.

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"Only those who die with Mortal sin upon their soul - go to hell"

 

The Faith Explained.

Leo J. Trese

Fides Publishers, Inc. Notre Dame, Indiana

 

The disunity is in disobediant Catholics, not in the Church's doctrines. The two are not equal (doctrines and people), and so you cannot attempt to equate them. Those Catholics going against Church teachings, knowingly, willinging, and unrepentantly, are hardly Catholics at all (except in namesake). This is why we need such a strong reform in Christian education, something that I believe will be the next revitalization within our Church!

God bless,

Grant