two witnesses

I’m quoting from the book “The signature of God” which quotes a book “The Democracy of the United States” written in 1840 by Alexis de Tocqueville.

This book was written when the Government of France sent a lawyer Alexis de Tocqueville to the US to investigate why crime was so low and few little prisons. Here is what he had to say.

“I sought the Greatness of the US in her commodious harbors-and it was not there, her ample rivers, her fertile fields, and boundless forests-and it was not there. I sought for it in her rich mines, her vast world commerce, her public schools systems and her institutions of higher learning-and it was not there. I looked for it in her democratic Congress and her matchless Constitution-and it was not there. Not until I went into the churches of America and heard her pulpits flame with righteousness did I understand the secret of her genius and power. America is great because America is good, and if America ever cease to be good, America will cease to be great!”

Quote from “The signature of God”

A century and a half later, America has publicly abandoned the Bible as the moral anchor of our society and education. It should surprise no one that, after decades of teaching our children that there are no absolute rights and wrongs, we face an appalling breakdown in public morality and rising levels of crime. As President Andrew Jackson lay on his deathbed, Jackson pointed to the Bible on the table and said, “That Book, Sir, is that Rock on which our republic rests.”

Sorry I didn’t have any thoughts of my own, but this quote pretty much sums it up!

That was an excellent post.

Originally posted by Baptist in Richmond:
We live in a country where being an Evangelical Christian is considered a hindrance to public service.

I am VERY curious as to everyone's thoughts (especially you, Dr. Bob) as to where this departure from Judeo-Christian values took place. I am only in my 30's, so I would imagine that it started in the 90's perhaps.

Or is this more appropriate for a new thread???

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It will be LOST here so please, start a new thread.

I will give YOU the honor . . .

Back to the subject--who are the two witnesses?

I'm surprised that so many seem so convinced that Moses and Elijah will be reincarnated, giving up their glorious bodies (Mat. 17),to return as mortals.

If the Scripture made it clear that Moses and Elijah would come back in the future, I'd be forced to concede that God will reincarnate them--otherwise I'm hesitant to believe it. Shouldn't I be? God gives no hint of reincarnation elsewhere.

As far as Elijah and John the Baptist goes, Jesus said of John, "this is Elijah that was to come" (Mat. 11:14). So why should I expect Elijah to come back yet again? It was clearly an example of figurative (gasp!) fulfillment of prophecy.

Then there's the issue of "it is appointed unto every man once to die". Does that mean no exceptions for Elijah or Enoch? What about all the believers alive at the Lord's return? Obviously God does make exceptions here. Elijah does not need to come back to die (nor does Enoch).

The identity of the two witnesses in Rev. 11 does have a very specific reference to Zechariah 4:11,12. But as for me, I'm with Zechariah in verse 13 there. I don't know who they are. Do I have to? Verse 14 doesn't particularly sound like Moses and Elijah to me.

I think we should save our dogmatism for things we can legitimately be more dogmatic about.

In Christ,

Tim

Since the book of Revelation is symbolic...how can you be so sure that the two witnesses are real people? Again the problem of the dispensationalism picking a choosing the portions of scripture that will be literal and symbolic raises it ugly head.

I think the 2 witnesses are symbolic of the Church.

Originally posted by go2church:
Since the book of Revelation is symbolic...how can you be so sure that the two witnesses are real people? Again the problem of the dispensationalism picking a choosing the portions of scripture that will be literal and symbolic raises it ugly head.

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3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
Rev 11:3-12


Doesn't sound symbolic to me, I feel the text is plain enough for us to know that these are two real people. Somebody mentioned that every one must die and then the judgement but I feel the promise of avoiding the 2nd death is more applicable. This would seem to prohibit Moses being one of the witnesses because that would mean that he dies twice. Although the plagues seem to mimic those he called down in egypt.
Murph

The two witnesses in revelation is the wisdom and understanding given to believers.

the scene is the two witnesses are battling the flesh (the beast). the beast temporarily thinks it won (by following the law).

notice after 3 1/2 days they arise and ascend back to God and "everyone" sees this. (those who are supposed to) and the declaration of Jesus victory.

the 3 1/2 is important because it reveals the understanding process of the holy spirit.
Jesus had a 3 1/2 year ministry within a 7 year (2 3 1/2 year "parts") Jesus teaches the wisdom before men (the first 3 1/2).
the second part of the experience is the INVISIBLE portion where God allows the understanding to unfold to the individual believer(the resurrection of Jesus by faith). experienced through Gods eyes of Faith.

why do we hold to the truth as if its real. we've experienced it first hand. we have seen the resurrection of Jesus through Gods eyes of faith.

this is a vision of the battle and victory of wisdom and understanding. the two parts necessary to unfold the knowledge of God to the believer.

Me2, your ideas sound too mystic for me. The two witnesses are indeed literal people and there is no logical reason to think otherwise.

They will be seen as they lie dead in the streets, courtesy of CNN and other satellite news networks, probably will even be seen by live cam shots on the Internet. You can see live shots in real time of the wailing wall in Jerusalem this very moment!

Just the fact that people will be exchanging gifts in joy over them lying there dead for 3 days, is proof enough for me that the rapture has already taken place.

Once the believers are gone from this earth, the Holy Spirit will be gone too - so only wickedness will prevail. Think how happy all those who hate born-again Christians (the salt & light in this present world) will be once WE are gone! They hate us now - we are the voice speaking out against homosexuality, wickedness, abortion, and evil going on the world.

Think how delighted and how good riddence those who are evil will think when WE are gone from here! So for the world to exchange gifts in joy over the 2 dead witnesses lying in the street of Jerusalem is no big surprise to me. The world will be utterly wicked then.

the battle between the two witnesses and the flesh is completely internal, invisible, and spiritual.

it is the testing of faith of what a person has been taught by the holy spirit over against the law and the flesh. it is also called the sanctification process. its called the renewing of the mind. putting on the mind of christ. that is what the message of the revelation of jesus christ is.

well thats my understanding.

Doesn't sound symbolic to me, I feel the text is plain enough for us to know that these are two real people.

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It all depends on your Interpretation. Premill's generaly interpret Revelation Literally. Many Amill's and Postmill's (The 2 camps I indentify with) see it as generally describing the Church's perseverance against evil and AntiChrist. Some Postmill's in the past saw the 2 witnesses as representing the Albigences and Waldenses during the dark ages.

Yes it does depend on interpretation and as has been stated on numerous occasions on this forum we will accept the literal interpretation. As She Eagle pointed out they are clearly shown as living men and that is good enough for me.
Murph

So are some of you still comfortable with the reincarnation of O.T. saints?

Tim

Reincarnation? Where are you getting that from, Tim? Isn't that fodder for another thread?

Yes it does depend on interpretation and as has been stated on numerous occasions on this forum we will accept the literal interpretation. As She Eagle pointed out they are clearly shown as living men and that is good enough for me.
Murph

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I did not know this was the Dispensational Premillenial Baptist Board

She Eagle, if Premill's believe the 2 witnesses are any historical figure (Moses, Elijah, Enoch etc..) from the Bible is does demand a belief in Reincarnation. Many Premill's while believing they are literal persons also reject they are any Biblical person realizing the danger of such a interpretation that embraces Reincarnation.

Originally posted by Kiffin:
She Eagle, if Premill's believe the 2 witnesses are any historical figure (Moses, Elijah, Enoch etc..) from the Bible is does demand a belief in Reincarnation. Many Premill's while believing they are literal persons also reject they are any Biblical person realizing the danger of such a interpretation that embraces Reincarnation.

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How does it demand a belief in reincarnation? Reincarnation says that a person who has died will come back as another person. If the two witnesses are in fact Elijah and Enoch (as I personally believe), then 1)they never died in the first place. They were taken into heaven by God instead, and 2)they are being sent back as themselves, not as another person. I don't see how this implies reincarnation.

. If the two witnesses are in fact Elijah and Enoch (as I personally believe), then 1)they never died in the first place. They were taken into heaven by God instead, and 2)they are being sent back as themselves, not as another person. I don't see how this implies reincarnation.

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Larry, I do not believe either Elijah and Enoch are in their fleshly bodies anymore but are in spirit. They are not alive as we are but have crossed over to the other side and live with all the saints of God. It does border on reincarnation. If Premills interpret this literally a suggestion of 2 Biblical men coming back from heaven seems to be in error and a belief these 2 are real men with miracolous powers is more consistent.

Revelation 11:4 tells us who they are "These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. " This is a referance to Zechariah 4 which is referring to Zerrubabel and the High Priest Joshua. In Zechariah they were instruments of restoration after the Babylonian Exile. The Church is in the business of restoration in proclaiming the Gospel in this age.

The number 2 is significant because Jesus sent his disciples out by 2 and in the Bible the witness of 2 supports the truthfulness of any testimony.

They prophecy 1,260 days. In Jewish Apocalyptic literature and Revelation is Apocalyptic book 1,260 days symbolizes a indefinite number or time, a time of persecution. The best understanding is that the 2 witnesses represent the witnessing Church through the entire Church age and though it seems Evil has triumphed at times, the Church will triumph over Evil and finally the AntiChrist.

Larry in TN,

Let me enlarge on what Kiffin said: Reincarnation simply means that an existing spirit is put into a new body. Certainly O.T. saints had mortal bodies when they lived on earth. In the case of Elijah or Enoch they were taken to heaven and in that process had to be either given immortal, glorified bodies (like Christ after resurrection)--something I don't think works out with other N.T. scriptures, or they entered heaven in their spirit--without a body. A mortal body cannot enter eternity (1 Cor. 15). So for Elijah or Enoch to return to earth and be killed, they would have to take on mortal bodies again. That is reincarnation.

In Christ,

Tim

I must remind some of you once more that there is a forum guideline at the top of the fundamental screen. Revelation is clearly stating that actual men are killed and left in the street so what more needs to be said. If anyone wishes to deny the clearly written truth they might be better served by checking out the baptist theology forum. Concerning who these two men are I don't know but I believe they are O.T. saints. The latest comments that this would require reincarnation is false and mean spirited, it seems to be an attempt by some to associate this belief with that of new agers. This will not be tolerated.
Murph

can anyone here explain to me how can the inspired and inerrant "word" of God have to be also 100% of the time "literal" in expression ?.

Ive never known this to be an article of Faith within the fundamental baptists.
Does others within the fundamental baptist churches have within its articles of faith wereas the bible is to be interpreted 100% literally ?

Im not sure. I dont think so.

And now has it become a rule in this forum ?