two witnesses

Let me speculate for a minute, and please bear in mind that this is pure speculation.

God is not constrained by time as we understand it. There would be no need for God to take these servants into heaven in a spiritual body, to await their return in the future in a new mortal body. It is quite concievable imo that God could have taken them from their own time, and sent them immediatly to fulfill their future ministry. No reincarnation is necessary, just God doing what only He can do. Performing a miracle which is beyond our comprehension.

Love in Christ,
Larry

 

Ive never known this to be an article of Faith within the fundamental baptists

Welcome to the "new" fudamentalist.

 

Murph,
You are the one that should not be tolerated! Not ONCE has anyone questioned the vaildity or truth of scripture. They have simply questioned the interpertation that many have. I remind you that you that this thread was started with a VERY open ended question, Who are the two witnesses in Revelation? Now if all you want is for people to agree with you instead of fair honest debate then you should have stated that in your post. I remind you that fundamentalism is not dispensationalism!

 

I checked out the forum guide lines. Nowhere does it say we must accept the Dispensational Premill view. It states that. " Many have asked who should post here and the answer is, “Anyone who will not deny the truths of the Word of God.” For example, we may disagree on the various interpretations of Scripture; but we will not be allowed to deny or question a clearly revealed truth. (Creation, virgin birth, salvation by grace, Old & New Testament miracles, etc…) "

***comments not fitting forum guidelines removed**

[ May 16, 2003, 10:22 PM: Message edited by: C.S. Murphy ]

 

You guys and your reincarnation theories can prepare yourselves to be blown into the weeds.....

Unless you want to say Moses & Elijah were "reincarnated" when they appeared at the Transfiguration.

Luke 9:[28] And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray.

[29] And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering.

[30] And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:

[31] Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.

Or.....

Unless you want to say Lazarus was "reincarnated" when Jesus raised him from the dead.

The "reincarnation" argument just doesn't cut it. Not to mention we are talking about the God of the Universe Who can do anything He chooses to do.

PS: Hope you had knee pads & helmets on so when you landed in the weeds, it didn't hurt too bad.

It's two actual real people, friends.

 

She Eagle,

I cited Mat 17 in one of my previous posts. Clearly Moses and Elijah had either glorified bodies, or appeared in the spirit there. They were there for a time speaking with Christ and then they vanished. Peter wanted to build a memorial to them along with Jesus. Do mortal men (with 1500 year old bodies)appear gloriously and then disappear?

As for Lazarus, His body was only dead for four days. Jesus put his spirit back into the very same body before it had wasted away. There's no record of Lazarus appearing gloriously during the four days he was dead, and THEN returning to his mortal body. It's a different situation.

Murph,

My earlier stated position on the two witnesses was that I didn't know who they were--but that I doubted they were Moses and Elijah or any O.T. saints. Then I proceeded to give my reasons why. That is what led me to the reincarnation discussion. This was not an original idea with me. A Bahai man once told me that the Bible said Elijah would be reincarnated. I didn't know how to answer him at the time. Since then, my answer to his proposal is that the Bible does not teach any such thing. That John the Baptist is the figurative fulfillment of the return of Elijah. Elijah himself will not be given another mortal body. Is such an argument a problem in this forum? I'm simply trying to work through the doctrinal ramifications of a proposal that an O.T. saint would return to earth in a mortal body, and I believe it opens up a theological can of worms.

In Christ,

Tim

 

My husband believes they are two men during the tribulation that will perform the same kind of miracles that Moses and Elijah did.

It will be sort of like John the Baptist coming in the spirit and power of Elijah. The two will do the same.

That is the literal interpretation. Moses and Elijah are a product of the "Left Behind" books.
___

Btw, those who believe in Larkinism are hardly the spokespeople for dispensationalism. Larkin was a well-meaning person. You can read about him in another thread on this forum.

 

have anyone else noticed that john was at the transfiguration, yet does not account for it in his gospel. its in matt, mark and luke, but not in john.

oh well, john did make up for it in his "revelation".

and the two at the transfiguration either had to have had a body to be seen. or all witnesses were asleep and they were encountering these spectors in a thought induced vision.

and the "voice" from above.
again thought induced.
no external physical manifestation of sound.

Me2

 

I will respect your wishes and post a poll on the Baptist theology forum later next week. Thanks for your comments and explanation.

[ May 17, 2003, 03:58 PM: Message edited by: Kiffin ]

 

khasid,

Though our eschatologies don't agree, I think your husband's view on the two witnessses is plausible. It avoids the problems I've been pointing out with the return of O.T. saints in the future.

In Christ,

Tim

P.S. Yes, we can be agreeable with those we disagree with.

 

C.S. Murphy, the Left Behind books do teach this position. It is true that people held to this view prior to Left Behind. I should have been more clear. The Left Behind series popularized the whole idea of it.

 

Amen, Dr. Bob!

BTW, just for the record, I have never read the "Left Behind" series, either - not a single book. No need to. I already read God's Book to see what's gonna happen - as up to date as today's headlines on CNN!

 

IF He returned pre-AD70 and set up His kingdom and bound Satan, then He has sadly failed.


James 1
14but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed.

 

Ok, I haven't followed this thread, but how can one of the wittnesses be Moses if he died? The bible says you die once.

 

I agree with 90% of what you said.... The Old and New Testaments are the witnesses...

 

I agree with 90% of what you said.... The Old and New Testaments are the witnesses... </font>[/QUOTE]Well, we know that today, so its perfectly true you can call the scriptures the old and new testaments, just as they used to be called the law and the prophets in the first century. Same thing.

Also remember the words of Jesus: Luke 16:31
But he said to him, "If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.'"
NASU

JESUS thought of the scriptures as being "witnesses" . .