two witnesses

[Larry in Tennessee]

Originally posted by Tim:
Larry in TN,

Let me enlarge on what Kiffin said: Reincarnation simply means that an existing spirit is put into a new body. Certainly O.T. saints had mortal bodies when they lived on earth. In the case of Elijah or Enoch they were taken to heaven and in that process had to be either given immortal, glorified bodies (like Christ after resurrection)--something I don't think works out with other N.T. scriptures, or they entered heaven in their spirit--without a body. A mortal body cannot enter eternity (1 Cor. 15). So for Elijah or Enoch to return to earth and be killed, they would have to take on mortal bodies again. That is reincarnation.

Let me speculate for a minute, and please bear in mind that this is pure speculation.

God is not constrained by time as we understand it. There would be no need for God to take these servants into heaven in a spiritual body, to await their return in the future in a new mortal body. It is quite concievable imo that God could have taken them from their own time, and sent them immediatly to fulfill their future ministry. No reincarnation is necessary, just God doing what only He can do. Performing a miracle which is beyond our comprehension.

Love in Christ,
Larry

 

[Grasshopper]

Ive never known this to be an article of Faith within the fundamental baptists

Welcome to the "new" fudamentalist.

 

[go2church]

Murph,
You are the one that should not be tolerated! Not ONCE has anyone questioned the vaildity or truth of scripture. They have simply questioned the interpertation that many have. I remind you that you that this thread was started with a VERY open ended question, Who are the two witnesses in Revelation? Now if all you want is for people to agree with you instead of fair honest debate then you should have stated that in your post. I remind you that fundamentalism is not dispensationalism!

 

[C.S. Murphy]

Originally posted by go2church:
[QB] Murph,
You are the one that should not be tolerated!
***Murph*** my wife agrees with you 100%

But let me add that I will conduct this forum to the best of my ability until relieved of my duty. Please report my actions to an Administrator or the Webmaster if you feel I have acted in error.

Not ONCE has anyone questioned the vaildity or truth of scripture. They have simply questioned the interpertation that many have.

*** Murph ** sorry to say but this is the same argument that many liberal baptists gave during the heated battles before this forum was born. I didn't agree then and I don't now.

I remind you that you that this thread was started with a VERY open ended question, Who are the two witnesses in Revelation? Now if all you want is for people to agree with you instead of fair honest debate then you should have stated that in your post. I remind you that fundamentalism is not dispensationalism!

I don't care if you agree with me or not but I insist that you post in a manner that gives us the impression that you agree with a scripture passages clearly stated facts. Concerning your reminder of what fundamentalism is, please read the moderators forum guidelines at the top of the page. Here is a clip from it:
Many have asked who should post here and the answer is, “Anyone who will not deny the truths of the Word of God.” For example, we may disagree on the various interpretations of Scripture; but we will not be allowed to deny or question a clearly revealed truth. (Creation, virgin birth, salvation by grace, Old & New Testament miracles, etc…)

I personally feel for one to deny that God can bring an O.T. saint back for a mission in the future is denying the truth of scripture and I will remove these type posts.
Murph

 

[Kiffin]

I must remind some of you once more that there is a forum guideline at the top of the fundamental screen. Revelation is clearly stating that actual men are killed and left in the street so what more needs to be said. If anyone wishes to deny the clearly written truth they might be better served by checking out the baptist theology forum. Concerning who these two men are I don't know but I believe they are O.T. saints.

I checked out the forum guide lines. Nowhere does it say we must accept the Dispensational Premill view. It states that. " Many have asked who should post here and the answer is, “Anyone who will not deny the truths of the Word of God.” For example, we may disagree on the various interpretations of Scripture; but we will not be allowed to deny or question a clearly revealed truth. (Creation, virgin birth, salvation by grace, Old & New Testament miracles, etc…) "

***comments not fitting forum guidelines removed**

[ May 16, 2003, 10:22 PM: Message edited by: C.S. Murphy ]

 

[LadyEagle]

You guys and your reincarnation theories can prepare yourselves to be blown into the weeds.....

Unless you want to say Moses & Elijah were "reincarnated" when they appeared at the Transfiguration.

Luke 9:[28] And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray.

[29] And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering.

[30] And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:

[31] Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.

Or.....

Unless you want to say Lazarus was "reincarnated" when Jesus raised him from the dead.

The "reincarnation" argument just doesn't cut it. Not to mention we are talking about the God of the Universe Who can do anything He chooses to do.

PS: Hope you had knee pads & helmets on so when you landed in the weeds, it didn't hurt too bad.

It's two actual real people, friends.

 

[C.S. Murphy]

Originally posted by Kiffin:

I checked out the forum guide lines. Nowhere does it say we must accept the Dispensational Premill view. It states that. " Many have asked who should post here and the answer is, “Anyone who will not deny the truths of the Word of God.” For example, we may disagree on the various interpretations of Scripture; but we will not be allowed to deny or question a clearly revealed truth. (Creation, virgin birth, salvation by grace, Old & New Testament miracles, etc…) "

If you disagree then defend your position in debate. [/QUOTE]

First of all Kiffin there was no need to quote the guideline to me, Pastor Bob and I wrote it. I have also pointed out how I felt your posts were in dissagreement with this guideline. I am surprised in your continuation of this argument, I pointed out the procedure for forcing a change in my moderation here. I do encourage you once again to complain to my superiors, I respect that but I cannot respect those who will not follow stated rules. You must understand that I truly believe in the efforts that have been put forth in the creation and continuation of this special forum and you must know that I will stake my career on the baptist board both as a poster and a moderator in the integrity of this forum. As to your invitation to prove my point by debate I will refrain. You see I along with others have pointed out by referring you to the clearly stated scripture why we believe our view is correct, this has been rejected by you and some others so I for one refuse to debate when my opponants will not accept the Bible. As I stated before this is reminiscent of the battles with liberals some months ago and as I also stated if anyone wishes to argue with those who reject scripture then they should look to other forums.
Murph

 

[Tim]

She Eagle,

I cited Mat 17 in one of my previous posts. Clearly Moses and Elijah had either glorified bodies, or appeared in the spirit there. They were there for a time speaking with Christ and then they vanished. Peter wanted to build a memorial to them along with Jesus. Do mortal men (with 1500 year old bodies)appear gloriously and then disappear?

As for Lazarus, His body was only dead for four days. Jesus put his spirit back into the very same body before it had wasted away. There's no record of Lazarus appearing gloriously during the four days he was dead, and THEN returning to his mortal body. It's a different situation.

Murph,

My earlier stated position on the two witnesses was that I didn't know who they were--but that I doubted they were Moses and Elijah or any O.T. saints. Then I proceeded to give my reasons why. That is what led me to the reincarnation discussion. This was not an original idea with me. A Bahai man once told me that the Bible said Elijah would be reincarnated. I didn't know how to answer him at the time. Since then, my answer to his proposal is that the Bible does not teach any such thing. That John the Baptist is the figurative fulfillment of the return of Elijah. Elijah himself will not be given another mortal body. Is such an argument a problem in this forum? I'm simply trying to work through the doctrinal ramifications of a proposal that an O.T. saint would return to earth in a mortal body, and I believe it opens up a theological can of worms.

In Christ,

Tim

 

[ruthigirl]

My husband believes they are two men during the tribulation that will perform the same kind of miracles that Moses and Elijah did.

It will be sort of like John the Baptist coming in the spirit and power of Elijah. The two will do the same.

That is the literal interpretation. Moses and Elijah are a product of the "Left Behind" books.
___

Btw, those who believe in Larkinism are hardly the spokespeople for dispensationalism. Larkin was a well-meaning person. You can read about him in another thread on this forum.

 

[Me2]

have anyone else noticed that john was at the transfiguration, yet does not account for it in his gospel. its in matt, mark and luke, but not in john.

oh well, john did make up for it in his "revelation".

and the two at the transfiguration either had to have had a body to be seen. or all witnesses were asleep and they were encountering these spectors in a thought induced vision.

and the "voice" from above.
again thought induced.
no external physical manifestation of sound.

Me2

 

[Kiffin]

I will respect your wishes and post a poll on the Baptist theology forum later next week. Thanks for your comments and explanation.

[ May 17, 2003, 03:58 PM: Message edited by: Kiffin ]

 

[Tim]

khasid,

Though our eschatologies don't agree, I think your husband's view on the two witnessses is plausible. It avoids the problems I've been pointing out with the return of O.T. saints in the future.

In Christ,

Tim

P.S. Yes, we can be agreeable with those we disagree with.

 

[C.S. Murphy]

Originally posted by khasid:
That is the literal interpretation. Moses and Elijah are a product of the "Left Behind" books.
___

Sorry Khasid, I have never read left behind. My beliefs predated those books. But thanks for belittling me just the same.
Murph

 

[ruthigirl]

C.S. Murphy, the Left Behind books do teach this position. It is true that people held to this view prior to Left Behind. I should have been more clear. The Left Behind series popularized the whole idea of it.

 

[Dr. Bob]

Tim LaHaye (Left Behind) has always held the basic dispensational/fundamentalist position of the pre-trib, pre-mil position . . including the literal appearance of the two witnesses.

This is not a "new" position. It is inherent in fundamentalism (over 100 year history) and still held today.

That the Lord has delayed His coming until His bride is complete is another glimpse at His mercy, love and longsuffering.

IF He returned pre-AD70 and set up His kingdom and bound Satan, then He has sadly failed.

As Hal Linsey said, "Satan is alive and well on planet earth!"

 

[LadyEagle]

Amen, Dr. Bob!

BTW, just for the record, I have never read the "Left Behind" series, either - not a single book. No need to. I already read God's Book to see what's gonna happen - as up to date as today's headlines on CNN!

 

[Grasshopper]

IF He returned pre-AD70 and set up His kingdom and bound Satan, then He has sadly failed.


James 1
14but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed.

 

[donnA]

Ok, I haven't followed this thread, but how can one of the wittnesses be Moses if he died? The bible says you die once.

 

[Graceforever]

Originally posted by Paul of Eugene:
I take the viewpoint Moses & Elijah = Law and Prophets = The Scriptures.

The SCRIPTURES are our WITNESSES!

Their lying dead in the streets indicates a time is coming when NNE WILL BELIEVE the scriptures.

Their bodies being preserved in Jerusalem is a reference to the Dead Sea Scroll manuscripts that are kept there even as a secular world pays less and less attention to the Bible.

THe breath of life breathed into them means that JUST BEFORE HE COMES people will have some cause to START BELIEVING THE SCRIPTURES again!

I agree with 90% of what you said.... The Old and New Testaments are the witnesses...

 

[Paul of Eugene]

Originally posted by Graceforever:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Paul of Eugene:
I take the viewpoint Moses & Elijah = Law and Prophets = The Scriptures.

The SCRIPTURES are our WITNESSES!

Their lying dead in the streets indicates a time is coming when NNE WILL BELIEVE the scriptures.

Their bodies being preserved in Jerusalem is a reference to the Dead Sea Scroll manuscripts that are kept there even as a secular world pays less and less attention to the Bible.

THe breath of life breathed into them means that JUST BEFORE HE COMES people will have some cause to START BELIEVING THE SCRIPTURES again!

I agree with 90% of what you said.... The Old and New Testaments are the witnesses... </font>[/QUOTE]Well, we know that today, so its perfectly true you can call the scriptures the old and new testaments, just as they used to be called the law and the prophets in the first century. Same thing.

Also remember the words of Jesus: Luke 16:31
But he said to him, "If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.'"
NASU

JESUS thought of the scriptures as being "witnesses" . .