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Why Sunday can NOT be the Lord's Day

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by wopik, Oct 21, 2004.

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  1. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    If you are not perfect, then you are not keeping it! Trying to keep it doesn't cut it. If you fail at any one point, you fail the entire law. So stop teaching that keeping the law is required for salvation. It is Faith alone in Jesus Christ. "Thinking" that you are keeping the law, when you are not, will add nothing to the salvation you have in Christ alone. The other trick is to judge another by the law saying, if you do not keep the law then you really are not a Christian and therefore realy not saved.

    God Bless! [​IMG]
     
    #161 steaver, Nov 22, 2004
  2. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Clearly you have not been following the posts.

    #1. I started out by showing God's OWN definition for a prophet and How HE communicates with them in Numbers 12. (Which IS the scripture for NT saints in the first century).

    #2. I also point out above that EACH person sees their own religion as "in harmony with scripture" including Catholics, Baptists, SDAs and JWs etc and starting from that point would always conclude that any prophet OUTSIDE of their denomination is NOT a true prophet (if they are given messages on those doctrinal points where there is a disagreement).

    You simply point out what I have already said - that you already agree with you and you see that as Biblical. No doubt! That is why I say it is pointless to discuss a prophet in any other group without first evaluating the doctrinal posistions of that group.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #162 BobRyan, Nov 23, 2004
  3. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Not the HEARERS of the LAW are JUST before God but the DOERS of the LAW will be Justified - Romans 2:11-13

    NOT everyone who SAYS 'Lord Lord' will enter the Kingdom of heaven but he who DOES the will of My Father.. Matt 7.

    So LIVE and SO act as those who ARE to be judged by the Law of Liberty James 2.

    By what you are overcome - by that you are enslaved and that is your master - Romans 6.

    NO temptation has overtaken you but SUCH as is common to man and God IS FAITHFUL who WILL NOT ALLOW you to be tempted beyond that which you are able and will with the temptation PROVIDE the way of escape 1Cor 10.

    You keep arguing that we should not worry about loving God with all of our heart since we can't really do it anyway.

    The Bible never makes your case.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #163 BobRyan, Nov 23, 2004
  4. wopik

    wopik New Member

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    Since from the beginning the Sabbath is associated with Creation week and specifically the creation of man, the Sabbath's universal or cosmopolitan perspective sets it above any uniquely Israelite law and practice.

    The Creation Sabbath is presented in much the same way that the later prophets envisioned it—namely as an observance for all mankind, for the Gentile as well as for the Israelite.

    Therefore, while the Sabbath was later a functional part of the covenant at Sinai (Ex. 20-24), its purpose and place are clearly much broader than that. (For example, Isaiah 66:23 shows that all nations will be observing the Sabbath during the millennial reign of Christ.)
     
    #164 wopik, Nov 23, 2004
  5. wopik

    wopik New Member

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    The account of Exodus 16 shows the great importance God places on a specific period of time for the Sabbath.

    The true Sabbath could never be just one day, any day, out of seven. God caused special miracles to ratify the holiness of the Sabbath — double the normal amount of manna was found on the sixth day and the extra manna did not spoil when left until morning as it would have on any other day. And when some Israelites went looking for manna on the Sabbath, God told Moses, "How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?" (v. 28).

    This statement is especially relevant since it took place before the covenant at Sinai, proving both that the Sabbath predated that covenant and that it is included as one of God's commandments and laws.
     
    #165 wopik, Nov 23, 2004
  6. Trotter

    Trotter <img src =/6412.jpg>

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    What makes you "a sadly misled individual", wopik, is that you are trying to live the Law to please God.

    Man cannot keep the Law. You would have to be perfect and sinless to do so...and there was only One of Him. By keeping parts of the law, you are guilty of all, and are shunning the finished work of Jesus Christ in preference to your own works.

    Personally, I choose to accept what cost the blood of Christ to purchase. He fulfilled the Law for me, He lived His life for ma, He gave His life for me. Why should I spurn the price He has paid, the blood He shed?

    Why should you?

    In Christ,
    Trotter
     
    #166 Trotter, Nov 23, 2004
  7. wopik

    wopik New Member

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    Yes, I do try to "live the law"; and you are right, no one can do it perfectly. Scott Peterson should have tried "living the law". His wife and baby would still be alive today, and he wouldn't be looking at a possible death sentence, himself.

    Living the law is righteousness (Psalms 119:172); this is to be a Christian's goal (1Jn 3:7; 1Cor. 15:34).

    In John's letter - written decades after Jesus' resurrection - Apostle John calls us all sinners (1 Jn 1:8-10). For us to be sinners, there has to be a law around that we are breaking, "for sin is the transgression of the law" (1Jn 3:4).

    What law is that? Paul mentions one of the laws: "thou shalt not covet" (Romans 7:7).


    "for where no law, there is no transgression" (Romans 4:15).
     
    #167 wopik, Nov 24, 2004
  8. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    What makes you "a sadly misled individual", wopik, is that you are trying to live the Law to please God.</font>[/QUOTE]Rom 3:31 - "Do we then abolish the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the Law of God".

    JAmes 2 "SO LIVE and ACt as those who ARE to be judged by the Law of Liberty".

    Romans 2:11-13 "For it is NOT the hearers of the LAW that are Just but the DOERS WILL BE justified".

    Hmmm- is it really "pleasing to God" that we "obey"??? Some think not.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #168 BobRyan, Nov 24, 2004
  9. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    You missed the smoking gun in Exodus 16.

    22 Now on the sixth day they gathered twice as much bread, two omers for each one. When all the leaders of the congregation came and told Moses,

    23 then he said to them, ""This is what the LORD meant: Tomorrow is the Sabbath observance, a holy Sabbath to the LORD.

    God selecte THE day in Gen 2:3 blessed it and made it a holy day.

    God selected THE day in Exodus 16.

    Oh.. but maybe God "forgot" which day He picked in Gen 2:3! Ya think??

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #169 BobRyan, Nov 24, 2004
  10. Trotter

    Trotter <img src =/6412.jpg>

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    I obey God, BobRyan, but I do not live the Law.

    Do you live the Law? When is the last time you had the priests sacrifice a goat for your sins? When was the last time you brought your peace offerings? Did you sleep in a hut made of branches during the festival of booths? Did you remember to bring your wave offering?

    You cannot pick and choose what parts of the Law to obey. It has to be all or nothing.

    I follow the commands that Jesus spoke.

    In Christ,
    Trotter
     
    #170 Trotter, Nov 25, 2004
  11. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    God's Word is law - His commands are just and are to be obeyed. Your idea of "I obey God but not His Word" is silly.

    Jesus is God - His Word IS what we have as scripture - OT AND NT. The attempt to DIVIDE Jesus from God the Father as though "GOD says one thing BUT JESUS says another" is silly. Have you really thought that through?

    Jesus said PRE-Cross that people of God were to follow and OBEY His pre-cross COMMANDMENTS (John 14). Do you seek to divide God the Son from God the Father at that point? I hope not.

    Previously Christ said "I speak ONLY THAT which the Father gives Me".

    In Romans 3:31 Paul argues that our faith ESTABLISHES the LAW of God.

    In Eph 6:1-3 Paul argues FOR the keeping of the 5th commandment saying "THIS IS the FIRST commandment with a promise".

    In James 2 the 10 commandments are "Again" quoted from and we are told to "So live and act AS THOSE WHO ARE to be judged by the law of liberty" - and it guotes from that law are given - they are quotes from the 10 commandments.

    Your argument that we should not be thinking about obeying the Laws that God has - is well... "you know".

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #171 BobRyan, Nov 26, 2004
  12. wopik

    wopik New Member

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    Trotter

    There are HUGE theological implications, if the law is abolished.

    1) if there is no law, nothing to break, then there is NO SIN -- "for where no law is, there is no transgression"(rom4:15). NO MORE SIN = NO MORE SINNERS. This is not the case, though (1Jn 1:8-10).

    2) sacrifical laws were OBVIOUSLY abolished because JESUS became the ultimate sacrifice. Sacrificial laws were added many years later (Gal. 3:17,19). They were not part of the original Ten Commadments (Jeremiah 7:22) - "the tables of the covenant" (Dt 9:11).

    Paul still kept the Sabbath (Acts 17:2) and told Christians to keep Passover (1Cor. 5:7-8). Acts 2 shows Christians still keeping the OT holiday of PENTECOST -- on Jesus' command (Acts 1:4), though with a new testament meaning.

    [ November 27, 2004, 01:43 AM: Message edited by: wopik ]
     
    #172 wopik, Nov 27, 2004
  13. wopik

    wopik New Member

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    There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judea, a certain priest named Zacharias...and his wife...Elizabeth. And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the LORD blameless (Luke 1:5-6).

    They were walking the Christian walk of RIGHTEOUSNESS.

    Paul tells us to "awake to righteousness" (1Cor. 15:34), and sin not. Sin = the transgression of the LAW (1Jn 3:4 / Rom 7:7).
     
    #173 wopik, Nov 27, 2004
  14. Michael52

    Michael52 Member

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    Every day is the Lord's day.

    Just pick 1 day out of every 7 and have everyone in your Church show up for worship.

    We decided every Sunday would be real convenient. [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
    #174 Michael52, Nov 27, 2004
  15. Trotter

    Trotter <img src =/6412.jpg>

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    You do as you choose, wopik.

    I am resting in the finished work of Jesus Christ, not in my own ability to try to maintain the Law.

    In Christ,
    Trotter
     
    #175 Trotter, Nov 27, 2004
  16. wopik

    wopik New Member

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    When Jesus was called into account for doing certain things on the Sabbath, it was not for violating specified Old Testament prohibitions, but for disavowal of non-inspired, traditional regulations written by men concerning the Sabbath.

    The Old Testament did not forbid one to pick ears of grain on the Sabbath to eat on the spot. Yet when Jesus and His disciples did this He was called to account. The reason? Because the religious leaders had classified picking ears as "reaping" and rubbing loose the grain as "threshing."


    The incident of the disciples plucking grain to eat in the fields (Mt. 12:1-8; Mk. 2:23-28; Lk. 6:1-5) was specifically permitted in the Old Testament (Deut. 23:25).

    They were accused only of Sabbath-breaking. Jesus did not defend their actions on the grounds that the Sabbath was done away. Rather, He used relevant analogies: David and the showbread (KJ.V—"bread of the Presence," RSV) and the priests in the temple.

    It was only after He had shown that the actions of the disciples were not a true violation of the Sabbath that He asserted, "The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath: therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the Sabbath" (Mk. 2:27-28).

    By this means He showed not that the Sabbath was done away but rather the correct spirit in which to keep the Sabbath. Jesus was clearly a Sabbath-keeper, not a Sabbath-breaker.
     
    #176 wopik, Nov 29, 2004
  17. wopik

    wopik New Member

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    Similarly, it was forbidden by extra-biblical Jewish law to treat a sickness when the sick person's life was in no immediate danger.

    Although being watched by the Pharisees and scribes, Jesus healed a man with a withered hand on the Sabbath (Mt. 12:9-14; Mk. 3:1-6; Lk. 6:6-11).

    To defend Himself He used the analogy of pulling a sheep out of a pit on the Sabbath. This shows that it was not His intent to break the Sabbath, but to show that relieving suffering was wholly consistent with the purpose of the day (Mk 2:27).
     
    #177 wopik, Nov 29, 2004
  18. wopik

    wopik New Member

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    James 2:8

    If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself," you do well;
     
    #178 wopik, Nov 29, 2004
  19. wopik

    wopik New Member

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    One passage is undisputed, at least insofar as a clear reference to Sabbath observance after Jesus’ own lifetime is concerned.

    This is Matthew 24:20: "Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath." This admonition is directed at Jesus’ own followers. And such instructions would have had little place in a non-Sabbath-keeping community.

    Scholars are almost unanimous in agreeing that this refers at least to a time as late as the 66-70 war against Rome, long after Jesus' death. (The dual implications of this prophecy also show that Jesus knew that the Sabbath would be kept by His people later in the "time of the end.")
     
    #179 wopik, Nov 30, 2004
  20. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    What does God's Word say about that?

    Yes - James says that to LIVE in obedience is to "really" obey.

    In Rom 3:31 Paul says our faith "REALLY" establishes the Law of God - rather than abolishing it.

    In Rom 2:11-13 Paul says

    Did Paul "really mean it"?

    Yes!

    What about the old smoke screen that says that animal sacrifices are not done away with at the cross? Can't we use that failed logic to argue against obeying God's Word - against obeying His actual commands?

    The animal sacrifices ended at the Cross according to Heb 10 where Christ put a stop to all sacrifices.

    Next.

    (And by "next" I mean "next attempt to abolish God's commands".)

    Did you find any place in the OT or NT where gentiles were asked to do that?

    What about Isaiah 58 and Isaiah 66 where we find non-Jews commanded to Keep the 4th commandment?

    As Jesus said in John 14 - "IF you love Me KEEP My commandments".

    Pre-Cross Commandments.

    The Gospel statement of Christ in the Gospel of John.

    I believe it.

    What about the misdirection that if want to obey God's commands then you must ignore what the new testament says about the shadow sacrifices, the animal sacrifices that end at the cross?

    Jesus is God - He spoke at Sinai.

    In John 10 Christ states clearly that He does not speak His own word - but as the Father speaks - He speaks.

    The attempt to "divide Christ from God" fails every time. But I can see why you need to go there.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #180 BobRyan, Nov 30, 2004
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