Why Sunday can NOT be the Lord's Day

[wopik]

BobRyan

Well stated.

I came across this web site about the Sabbath a few days ago.

You may or may not agree with it, but it sure says things in a whole different way --

http://intercontinentalcog.org/ICGCC/Lesson_Seven.shtml

 

[Seth3]

Christs commandments are to walk in love. Expressed by...

FORGIVE and YOU WILL BE FORGIVEN.

JUDGE NOT LEST YOU BE JUDGED.

If you love me you will Keep my commandments.

No man will be justified by the law.

No one made perfect by the law

Through the law comes the Knowledge of Sin

Walk in Christ commands being obedient to Him you will walk in love because your walking in the MERCY God desires Not the sacrifice He does not.

Therefore if we want forgiveness? Then show others forgiveness by forgiving them.

Why say ye "Lord Lord and not do what I say"?


The Law of Love

God Bless

Seth3

 

[wopik]

BobRyan

And as you point out - Paul argues in Romans 3:31 "We do NOT abolish the Law of God by our faith rather we Establish the Law".

A clear example of this is Moses: "Through FAITH he kept the Passover" (Hebrews 11:28).

Paul told the Corinthians to do the same (1 Cor. 5:7-8) - "Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us, therefore, let us keep the feast."

 

[steaver]

This topic seems to be of great importance to some.

I am curious as to why it is so important?

I have a question. I am a born again believer in Jesus Christ. I have recieved Him as my Lord and Savior. If I do not observe the "correct" Sabbath Day or any Sabbath Day, will I NOT be saved?

God Bless!

 

[wopik]

Hello, steaver from central Pa

If I do not observe the "correct" Sabbath Day or any Sabbath Day, will I NOT be saved?

Who gets saved is obviously God's decision.

I just like discussing what's actually in the Bible, and comparing it to what people THINK is in the Bible. I don't see Sunday as a day of worshipping God - IN THE BIBLE. And I just like to know where people get this Sunday idea from.

 

[steaver]

I just like to know where people get this Sunday idea from.

Probably just tradition. I have heard of different reasonings. The important thing is that worship is done in every part of our being and everyday of the week in Christ.

I just like discussing what's actually in the Bible, and comparing it to what people THINK is in the Bible.

That is very admirable! We all know how much misguided doctrine is floating around out there.

I had a discussion one time with a SDA who insisted that anyone NOT worshiping on Saturday would be eternally condemned. Also anyone who was caught eating pork! Yet in their statement of faith they declared that salvation was through faith alone in Jesus Christ. When I challenged them on this they could not give an answer.

God Bless!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Why's the subject so important to some? Why, because of what Jesus did! Have any doubts? Then go read Hebrews 4, and Colossians 2, and Mark 2, and a lot more. The Subject is so important Jesus thought it necessary to declare His Lordship of it! What did He see in it to be that important that it should go under His guardianship and authority? Why did God of old call the subject His Holy? You know He only called two things His Holy: His Holy One His Son, and this subject, this Seventh Day. Yea in fact, "God concerning the Seventh Day thus spoke: And God the Seventh Day from all His works rested"! Here is why: Because God in Jesus Christ through the "exceeding greatness of His power" FINISHED, and PERFECTED, all His creation - all his works - through the very redemption of it from eternal oblivion through and "when he raised Christ from the dead". If you can see why Ephesians 1:19f is a Sabbath's-Scripture, you will know why this subject is so important to some.
But lastly, it is so important because without the shadow, there could scarsely be any "Body" could there? And the Body, without the Head being its light, could scarsely through the shadow, could it? In ordinary language: The Church of Jesus Christ would not have been, were there no Day of and for its worship and rest. Where would you see the Believers obey Christ by WITNESSING of Him if they never assembled as the Body that is of Christ's own - of His Elect - had it not been for the Day of Worship Rest of this Body? How would it have proclaimed and made disciples and have baptised the nations in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, had not GOD HIMSELF "appointed a day" - the Seventh Day - for it?
We, Christians, confess God the Father, then we cannot but go on and confess, "and in the Son"; then we cannot but go on and confess: "and in the Holy Spirit"; and then we caanot help to go and confess: and in the forgiveness of sin". Then we cannot stop here, and say that's it, I - ME - am saved, so the devil for the rest. No, we once more must go on and confess: I believe in the Church". But dear friend, JUST AS IMPOSSIBLE is it to stop here, for we are forced by sheer reality - existentiality - Christian existentiality, and also by God's own and personal providence, and go on and confess: THEREFORE, I also believe the Sabbath Day for all I have before confessed; and then also for I - and the Church as ONE, shall confess, believe, and proclaim for as long as we mortals are this side of eternity: "Thy Will be done".
Now short and sweet - or bitter for some - there is no such will of God "THUS CONCERNING", Sunday.
But it doesnt stop there, however uncomfortable, however painful, however distasteful even to our pallet, for this single reason: God is not honoured with idolatry, with lying, with false preaching and prophesying - which all are the core and substance and very life-nerve of Sunday observance. And each and every time God's Sabbath Day is assaulted, this lying idolatry is going on
vainglorying in every 'Sabbath'-principle of the Scriptures! Disgusting, and more disgusting OUR - the Church's - OWN stubbornness and hard heartedness to repent, to confess, to change this specific WICKED way in every way!
That is why, this subject, is so important to me, even were I alone, or not part of this sorry Body that by God's infathomable love and Grace, still is the Body of Christ's Own, so help me God.
If one could do nothing about it, he could at least pray concerning it.
Gerhard

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by steaver:
This topic seems to be of great importance to some.

I am curious as to why it is so important?

I have a question. I am a born again believer in Jesus Christ. I have recieved Him as my Lord and Savior. If I do not observe the "correct" Sabbath Day or any Sabbath Day, will I NOT be saved?

God Bless!

I like your first question better - "why is it so important?"

In John 14 when Christ says "IF you love Me KEEP My commandments" -- is that really so important or just a nice little saying Christ is fond of?

In Romans 3:31 when Paul says "By faith we establish the Law of God" is that really that important - or just a cute saying?

In James 2 we find these words
9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors.
10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.
11 For He who said, "" DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY,'' also said, "" DO NOT COMMIT MURDER.'' Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.
12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty.


Is that really that important? I mean "really"??

In Matt 7 Christ says that not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord "will enter the kingdom of heaven but he who DOES the Will of the Father" - is God's will REALLY that His people submit to His own word and His commands? Really?

In Romans 2 Paul argues "Not the HEARERS of the Law but the DOERS of the law WILL BE JUSTified" - is that really such a big deal?

Why should we pay attention to these misleading and unimportant sections of God's Word?

Why not just ignore them? Wouldn't that be the kind and loving thing to do? How did they get there in the first place?

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

I had a discussion one time with a SDA who insisted that anyone NOT worshiping on Saturday would be eternally condemned. Also anyone who was caught eating pork! Yet in their statement of faith they declared that salvation was through faith alone in Jesus Christ. When I challenged them on this they could not give an answer.

I knew a 4pt Calvinist once who abused his wife.

Is that really an argument against Calvinism?

I knew a Catholic once who ...

I knew a Methodist once who ...

Those kind of arguments are not good reasons to reject the RCC or the Methodists or Calvinists nor do they prove anything other than the fact that individuals can be in error.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

The Subject is so important Jesus thought it necessary to declare His Lordship of it!

Good post Gerhard! Praise Jesus Christ for His Lordship over this that all of His children may partake in His blessings!

I knew a 4pt Calvinist once who abused his wife.

Is that really an argument against Calvinism?

I don't believe wife abuse has anything to do with sound doctrine and statements of Faith.

I have nothing against Seventh Day Sabbath observers, we all have liberty in Christ. But these SDA folks which I conversated with were leaders of their church who taught and believed that pork eaters and non-Saturday worshippers would be damned to hell REGARDLESS of being IN Christ. It is ok to express your love to God by perceiving to honor the Sabbath. But Jesus Christ is my ultimate Sabbath and if I be found in error about anything whatsoever at my judgment, I will still be found IN Him and justified before God through His blood.

The SDA's may have the Sabbath right (i don't see it), but not as I heard it taught that they are the true and accepted church of Jesus Christ. They told me that others will be saved, but anyone who was informed of "their" truth and still rejected it, they would be lost regardless of faith in Christ.

Even if they are right about the Sabbath being in force, they are wrong about it being required for salvation, and they are way wrong for believing Ellen White a prophet of God.

God Bless!

 

[BobRyan]

You are missing the point.

Adventists do not teach that people who don't keep Sabbath are not saved.

They don't teach that you can accept any prophet (not even Ellen White) without first finding out if their doctrinal messages from God stand up "sola scriptura". In other words - they reject the idea that non-Adventists "should" accept Ellen White as a prophet.

And you are wrong if you think that is even one text in all of scripture that says "Jesus is my Sabbath".

Jesus is God - He is righteous - but He is not faithfulness to your wife. For that you must "really be faithful" you can not be unfaithful and then declare that Jesus is your faithfulness while you gleefully commit adultery. Taking such a position simply shows that the heart is not changed. (IF you actually were to do such a thing - which I don't say you do).

See?

In your quote you argue against the fact that they accept the statement of Paul "Whatever is not of faith is sin" Romans 14. Why would you take such a position?

(BTW - their 27 fundamental beliefs are published online - so no need to speculate for an entire donimation based on "I met an SDA one time who said...")

(Unless of course you want to do so based on talking to this one..)

In Christ,

Bob

 

[wopik]

I had a discussion one time with a SDA who insisted that anyone NOT worshiping on Saturday would be eternally condemned.

Hi steaver,

Most Christians think the fourth Commandment is the least important one. Jesus says people who have this attitude toward any of His Commandments will still be in the Kingdom, but they will be the least in the Kingdom of God (Heaven) - Matt 5:19.

But in other chapters of the NT, Commandment breaking seems to have more dire consequences.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by wopik:
BobRyan

Well stated.

I came across this web site about the Sabbath a few days ago.

You may or may not agree with it, but it sure says things in a whole different way --

http://intercontinentalcog.org/ICGCC/Lesson_Seven.shtml

I agree - that is a very good link.

Bob

 

[steaver]

They don't teach that you can accept any prophet (not even Ellen White) without first finding out if their doctrinal messages from God stand up "sola scriptura". In other words - they reject the idea that non-Adventists "should" accept Ellen White as a prophet.

Two points here. First, having good doctrinal messages that stand up to "sola scriptura" does not make one a "prophet". Maybe a good teacher, but not a prophet. Second, if Ellen White is a prophet from God, don't you think everyone better follow what she said?

A "prophet" gives "new" revelation. New revelation must accompany proof that it is from God (Duet 18). Can you tell me what proof Ellen presented that would grant her the title "prophet of God"?

The "gift of prophecy" post penticost is unlocking scripture comparing scripture with scripture. It is not making a charge that one view of doctrine is truth over another because God told me so.

What has she done or predicted to prove herself a prophet?

Jesus was and is God's final "prophet". God needs no other. How can you top the Son of God Himself? Did Jesus fail? Did He leave some loose ends? He gave us all the Apostles to deliver His word. Anyone therafter, thus far, has not proven themselves to speak for God. If they have, I have yet to have any proof presented to me. Maybe you have some.

God Bless!

 

[BobRyan]

They don't teach that you can accept any prophet (not even Ellen White) without first finding out if their doctrinal messages from God stand up "sola scriptura". In other words - they reject the idea that non-Adventists "should" accept Ellen White as a prophet.

Originally posted by steaver:
Two points here. First, having good doctrinal messages that stand up to "sola scriptura" does not make one a "prophet". Maybe a good teacher, but not a prophet.

Agreed. The point I was making is that the messages given (and claimed as coming from God) had to be tested against established Bible doctrine. For example, if you are a Catholic and believe the Bible supports purgatory and praying to dead saints - then when you discover messages from someone like White saying that God opposes that view - you must conclude she is a false prophet since (even by SDA standards) a prophet's message from God MUST be consistent with His Word.

(Of course I would hope that at some point you might come to see that Purgatory and praying to the dead are not supportable Bible teachings... not saying that you actually are Catholic of course - just using an illustration).

Second, if Ellen White is a prophet from God, don't you think everyone better follow what she said?

No. How could they? If a Catholic prophet arises - nobody but a Catholic would be in a position to hear them because only THEY would conclude that the prophet is doctrinally correct in the visions related IF those visions spoke to Catholic doctrine AND they agreed with catholic doctrine.

That problem is not avoidable. There is no shortcut. Bible support must be the first level of testing the prophets to see if they are from God.

A "prophet" gives "new" revelation. New revelation must accompany proof that it is from God (Duet 18). Can you tell me what proof Ellen presented that would grant her the title "prophet of God"?

Obviously I can - but the problem of the sola-scriptura test would still remain. There is no short cut. You have to go through the front door, not the back door.

The "gift of prophecy" post penticost is unlocking scripture comparing scripture with scripture.

That is not true. God made NO change in the gift after penticost and there is no Bible text showing that He did. Your statement is one that can be verified "sola scriptura" and found to be untrue.

In Fact God's Word DOES say "IF there is a prophet among you I WILL communicate with them in a dream or a vision".

Your model of "through out those parts of scripture that define prophecy that I don't like and look for a different definition" is not workable in the text of scripture.

What is more - when you look at 1 Cor 14 you find that prophecy (and the controlled/order for prophecy) is very different from tongues due to the supernatural "God controlling" nature of the Gift when exercised.

Simply standing up as a Sunday School teacher and expounding "whenever you feel like it" would not work. It would be chaos. Note that the one speaking in 1Cor 14 must sit down mid-sentence when another is given a message. This is the extreme case showing the degree to which God alone was in charge of the exact timing.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

BTW - John spoke/wrote/related prophecy almost 60 years after Christ - are you "sure" that Christ was the last prophet??

And John's book of Revelation is a perfect illustration of "real" prophecy unchanged from the days of Daniel.

Hard to miss.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

BTW - John spoke/wrote/related prophecy almost 60 years after Christ - are you "sure" that Christ was the last prophet??

I guess it is all in how you look at it. John wrote as Jesus Christ spake, so who really was the author of the book?

Anyway, what did Ellen White DO that she would be proven a prophet of Jesus Christ? Didn't all of the NT writers perform miracles which proved they spoke for Christ? And the OT writers foretold the future which proved them, right? What did Ellen do?

Again, many can preach good biblical doctrine and even reiterate scripture, like Joeseph Smith did. Why isn't he considered a prophet by the SDA?

God Bless!

 

[A_Christian]

Christians can worship the LORD whenever and wherever they chose. They can worship the LORD in anyway that the Holy Spirit leads them to. Jesus has fulfilled the LAW. Christians are no longer in bondage to the LAW. The LAW ONLY condemns. If you do not see this, you likely are not a Christian in the saved sense. At the very least, you are but a small babe in Christ.

 

[Trotter]

A_Christian,

Amen!

 

[Johnv]

I find myself agreeing with A_Christian 100%.


I'm sitting down now, catching my breath.