What is the Gospel?

dhk:
The Bible says in James 2:21." Was not Abraham our father justified by WORKS when offered Isaac his son on the altar?"

Question: Did the walls of Jericho fall before or after they were compassed about seven times? According to the Bible that is. Hebrews 11:30.

Was Rahab saved before she received the spies or after, according to the Bible that is? Hebrews 11:31.
According to John 6:28,29, is belief a work?

Frank
Were the children of Israel saved before or after they crossed the Red Sea? According to the Bible that is. Hebrews 11:29.

 

Chem:
I call them what God calls them in the inspired book. Of course, some do not like to examine the totality of evidence. If I believed faith only, I would not either. If I wanted to claim grace alone, I would not either. If I believed in the sinner's prayer, I would not either. The fact is God's inpired book teaches us there Is Something we MUST DO to be saved. Acts 2:37;9:6; 28:26. Peter made it clear in verse 38 of acts 2, verse 48 of Acts 10 and verse 21 of I Peter 3. Peter does not seperate faith from obedience. He conjoins it. Paul did ,too. Romans 16:26. James concurs with Paul and Peter. James 2:24,18.Of course so did Jesus. Luke 6:46, Mat. 7:21-24.
NONE of these men taught faith absent of works. NONE taught a working obedient faith that saves was one of merit. I do not either as the Bible does not teach it.
Frank

 

Dual:
As I stated to Chem, God's word teaches there are differnt types of works.The posted scriptures are explicit in their declaration of different types of works. The Bible teaches that there are works of faith, Romans 16:26, works of the law. Gal. 3:11, Works of the flesh, Gal. 5:19-21, Works of righteousness, Titus 3:5, and works of merit, Eph. 2:9. Jesus also said WE MUST WORK THE WORKS OF GOD. Jn. 6:28,29. He states BELIEF IS A WORK.
Should one not believe because it is a work?
Frank

 

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[ July 18, 2002, 07:57 PM: Message edited by: SolaScriptura ]

 

Please do not mis-understand what Jesus is saying in John 6:29.

A person who believes in Jesus Christ is indwelt by the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit will work God's righteousness through the believer.

Think about it! Who is really to be glorified?

 

Chem:
The flawed Hermeneutic is yours!!. You have failed to demonstratre from the scriptures your position. You ASSERT a thing, but cannot prove it. Your comments about James is a false assertion of the highest order. Where does it teach that he is speaking about our justification before men? Give me a book chapter and verse to support the assertion.
The Bible teaches that God JUSTIFIES, not men.Roms. 8:33, Romans 5:8-10.
Frank

 

Frank,

More than 20 years ago a very wise and very spiritual man asked me a question . On the surface it seemed like a very simple question but my legalistic foundation on which I had been raised started crumbling and eventually totally failed me. My ego and pride went into a tailspin!

He asked me the following question.

Are you trusting in Jesus Christ alone for salvation?

 

Everyone ignored my post, so I moved it down here:

"Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in [God's] sight:" (Rom 3:20)

Why can't the works of the Law justify man before God? Isn't it because the Law says "Cursed is he who does not confirm all the words of this law by doing them," thus removing any chance of man ever being justified by it for it itself will condemn the man who is under it without fail by it's own curse? (Deu 27:26)

What of the works of merit? Why can't they justify a man before God? Is it not because good deeds do not erase sin? Is it not because "without shedding of blood is no remission"? (Heb 9:22)

What of the works of obedience to Christ (of which belief is a work John 6:29)? "And being made perfect [in obedience to the Father by His work on the cross], he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;" (Heb 5:9) Do you not see the difference here?

 

Chem:
Yes, I have read James many times. James did not say that our works were justification before men. He said men are known by their deeds a manifestation of true faith.Again, God justifies , not men. Romans 8:33;5:8-10.
Grace and faith are two things. Eph. 2:8,9. Grace that saves is accesed by faith Romans 5;1,2. It is always an active faith.One must have an active faith to be saved. Gal. 3:26,27,Acts 17:30,31,Mat. 10:32. You advocate a dead faith. James 2:26,17.
By the way, James advocates an active faith, James 2:17,18,26.
Since my questions were not answered from Hebrews 11. I will answer them in the interest of truth. The walls of Jericho fell AFTER they were compassed about seven times, not before. The children of Israel were saved after they walked throught the Red Sea, not before. Rahab was spared after she received the spies, not before. Abraham was justified after he offered Isaac, not before.In each case, these inspied accounts teach us that there was something they MUST DO TO BE SAVED. The Bible says so. Again, an active faith accessed God's grace.
Frank

 

This life and the next life are different things otherwise Jesus would have been wrong when he said the following:

[40] And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. - John 6:40 KJV

Even the people who believed in Christ died but the promise refered to them having eternal life with God after the resurection of the dead. Most of the people of Israel who left Egypt with Moses died in the desert, they had their lives spared but they did not have true salvation:

[17] But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
[18] And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? - Hebrews 3:17-18 KJV

Before Christ brought the New Covenant in His blood into effect, people were not sealed by the Spirit, they did not have the promises of grace that we have. Having their death delayed did not mean that they had salvation

[13] In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
[14] Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. - Ephesians 1:13-14 KJV

[9] That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
[10] For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
[11] For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
[12] For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
[13] For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. - Romans 10:9-13 KJV

[8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
[9] Not of works, lest any man should boast.
[10] For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. - Ephesians 2:8-10 KJV

1. Saved by grace through faith not by works.

[6] And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. - Romans 11:6 KJV

2. Grace and works are very very different things.

[17] Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. - 2 Corinthians 5:17 KJV

3. Good works are a result of being made into a new creature in Christ not a cause.

 

Someone talk about Heb 5:9 pleeez

 

[9] And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; - Hebrews 5:9 KJV

[22] And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
[23] And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. - 1 John 3:22-23 KJV

 

"The walls of Jericho fell AFTER they were compassed about seven times, not before."
--Not so. That was simply a physical deliverance. They were already believers when they went up against the city of Jericho, as evidenced by the passover.

"The children of Israel were saved after they walked through the Red Sea, not before."
--Not so. That was simply a physical deliverance. They were already believers when they through the Red Sea.

"Rahab was spared after she received the spies, not before."
--Wrong again. Rahab was justified when she believed, which was before she received the spies. Her deliverance was physical, resulting because she believed.

"Abraham was justified after he offered Isaac, not before."
Not so. The Bible is clear that Abraham was justified by faith, because he believed, long before he ever offered Isaac. (Rom.4:3)

"In each case, these inspied accounts teach us that there was something they MUST DO TO BE SAVED."
---You have read into Scripture something that is not there. These all were justified by faith, and by faith alone. Their acts and deliverances came as a result of their obedience to God. They were already saved in the first place.
DHK

 

dhk:
Here is a word for word reading concerning my questions. In Hebrews 11:30, the Bible says," by faith the wall of Jericho fell down, AFTER THEY WERE COMPASSED ABOUT SEVEN DAYS.
In Hebrews 11:29, the Bible says," By faith they passed through the Red Seas by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to be drowned. Verbs Past tense. The result came after the passing through as the Egyptians were drowned and the children of Israel passed on dry land, not before.
In Hebrews 11:17, the Bible says," By faith, Abraham,when he was tried,offered up Isaac: and he that had recived the promises offered his only son. James 2:21 says," Was not Abraham JUSTIFIED BY WORKS when he offered up Isaac his only son upon the altar." Abraham was not Justified before he offered. Again,active faith accessed God's grace. You will find this to be true each and every time one is given salvation. NO EXCEPTIONS!
Frank

 

Dual:
With all due respect, your posts do not confront the scriptures at hand. I believe all the ones you posted and none of them change the fact that every person saved has always been saved by an obedient active faith.( Hebrews 5:8,9). You simply try to array scripture against scripture. The Bible is harmonious, not contradictory.
Frank

 

DHK:
You asserted I read things into the scriptures. Please provide for me the scripture that says the examples used were saved by faith ALONE?

Where in the text does it say it was a physical deliverance before they compassed the walls seven times? Where? Book chapter and verse,please.

Where does it say Rahab was physically delivered before she took in the spies? By the way, not only was this required,but she was to TIE A SCAELET THREAD IN THE WINDOW. see Joshua 2:16-24. Again, she was saved because she obeyed the conditions given to her. Joshua 6:17,22,23.
Romans 4:3 says nothing of him being justiifed long before he offere Isaac. Here let me quote it for you.
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
This is a reference to him leaving his homeland for the blessings God had for his seed. Again, Abraham believed by leaving Ur. Gen. 12:1-3.

He had an active faith in the promises God would give him. Gen. 12:1-3;16:5. The same is true for us today. SEE Gal. 3:26-29.
Frank

 

Chem:
Please provide the text where I said one can earn his way into heaven? I did not say that and do not teach it because the Bible does not teach it.

The Bible teaches that one ACCEPTS THE GIFT OF GRACE BY FAITH. Eph. 2:8,9, Romans 5:1,2. Get it right please!! It always has been and always will be and ACTIVE FAITH as GOD CONDEMNS A DEAD FAITH. Hebrews 11:6:5:8,9, James 2:26,17. Get it right please!

Furhtermore, I have posted the scriptures that prove my position. Get it right please!

It is childish to poison the waters or build a straw man. Get it right please!
Frank