once saved always saved for baptists

Tazman · Jul 23, 2003

Dear Dr. Bob,

I am greatful to be able to post on this site. I am not a baptist, though I grew up in a Southern baptist enviornment. I remember allot of the teaching.

If you would please do me the favor of answering some of the question I have regarding this site and your doctrine, I would be very greatful.

Your organization Has hosted a website that includes anyone to post on it with the following exception:

1

you must be righteous (post clean material)

2

you can't post on "Baptist Only" forums

As well as some others.

One of my questions is this: If you are a Baptist that is taught the same doctrine all over the world and then you have a question that you only can get the opinion of other Baptist, how will you learn something new or be corrected?
My thought is this: I share my faith with people of different religeons and even though I may not agree with their doctrine completely, I may walk away with some biblical insight that I would not or did not get from my associates of my faith.

How do you expect to grow but not exposed your faith to a challenge. Its easy to seem right when everyone is telling you what you want to hear (is that really a "Debate"?), but how will you know if you have true faith. Or better yet if your faith in a particular area is biblically correct? You can only trust yourself, but limit the influence that God has around you.

I looked at a subject on the baptist only forum, but out of repect I didn't post my views, and the majority of the baptist agreed on the subject that another baptist started.

The subject was "ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED". There were allot of "Opinions", but I notice certain scriptures were not shared that could have given this person a more biblical direction of faith. Not just a faith based on association.

I don't hide my people from other beliefs because if I am correct in my views then it doesn't matter what anyone else says because I can prove through scriptures (within context) our faith.

So what are you afraid of?

I will start a descussion "Once Saved Always Saved" and you and other Baptist are invited to share your beliefs(based on scriptures). You Might just learn something new, if your open

[ July 23, 2003, 12:28 PM: Message edited by: C.S. Murphy ]

Refreshed · Jul 23, 2003

From the Baptist Board Posting Rules:

7. Use descriptive subject lines. This makes it easier for people to see what your post is about. Do not use another member's screen names in topic titles.

Jason

Don · Jul 23, 2003

(sigh)

Tazman, Dr. Bob isn't afraid of anything. He's just a moderator, enforcing the rules of the Baptist Board.

The webmaster who actually owns and runs this board isn't afraid of anything, either.

See, here's the error in your logic: If any Baptist who frequents this board were "afraid" of what a non-Baptist had to say, we would NOT have an "Other Religions" section at all. You wouldn't be allowed to post anything whatsoever. If you did manage to post, your posts would be deleted.

The only time people have been barred from this board and their posts deleted has been when they are espousing anti-biblical viewpoints, or simply being rude and demeaning to others.

Since you're allowed to post, and your posts aren't being deleted, I think perhaps you should re-evaluate whether Dr. Bob is "afraid," or merely keeping the "Baptists Only" section for the many different variations of Baptists to discuss and learn more about Baptist beliefs.

Tazman · Jul 23, 2003

The fact is that on the Baptist only Forum, no other insights are allowed by outside users. It's obviously your choice, I'm just saying the issues you descuss privately/publically can benefit from insights of non-baptist believers.

What is the big deal anyway

If you were teaching a person who believes that God exist and that the bible is his word, and that your doctrine is based on it, then you would gladly welcome questions/insights into a discussion. Why not now?

Tell ya what,
don't worry about it. I'm okay with using the "Open Forum" to talk to anyone willing reguarding my faith. Hopefully we all will learn something

Sorry if I offended anyone.

Lets continue with this topic here then.

Once a person is forgiven of their sins through Christ (However you believe that to be) Can they lose thier Salvation through unrepented sin?
Please provide scriptures with your responses

Refreshed · Jul 23, 2003

I guess you could start with John 3:16. Eternal life is by definition without end. If you believe in Christ, you have eternal life, life without end, even if you sin. That is what the verse promises anyway. If you were able to sin and lose salvation, that life, would, by definition, no longer be eternal.

Jason

BrianT · Jul 23, 2003

Originally posted by Refreshed:
[QB] I guess you could start with John 3:16. Eternal life is by definition without end. If you believe in Christ, you have eternal life, life without end, even if you sin. That is what the verse promises anyway. If you were able to sin and lose salvation, that life, would, by definition, no longer be eternal.

But is that verse talking about a "one time" belief or an "ongoing" belief?

Tazman · Jul 23, 2003

Originally posted by Refreshed:
I guess you could start with John 3:16. Eternal life is by definition without end. If you believe in Christ, you have eternal life, life without end, even if you sin. That is what the verse promises anyway. If you were able to sin and lose salvation, that life, would, by definition, no longer be eternal.

Jason

John 3:19 "This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed."

(Everyone (no exceptions) who DOES EVIL HATES THE LIGHT....)

Jason, there is more to the third chapter of John than just vs 16.

Faith was never a one time deal. You can loose faith. Faith without deeds is dead (James 2

You can believe in Jesus and stop following him.

Hebrews 10:25-28 Speaks to Christians that "Deliberatly" keeps sinning.

Do those scriptures mean anything to you?

John 3:5 "Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit."

What does born of "Water AND Spirit" mean. Please note that the scripture does not state Water THEN Spirit!

Don · Jul 24, 2003

Please note that John 3:19 doesn't say "everyone who does evil hates the light"; it says "Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light."

BIG difference.

Hebrews 10:26 states "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins."

Note that it says "the knowledge of the truth." Many, many people who claim to be Christians have the head knowledge, and are taught weekly and even daily about the divine and ethical things, but have never truly known the heart knowledge that is saving grace.

Tazman · Jul 24, 2003

Originally posted by Don:
Please note that John 3:19 doesn't say "everyone who does evil hates the light"; it says "Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light."

BIG difference.

Hebrews 10:26 states "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins."

Note that it says "the knowledge of the truth." Many, many people who claim to be Christians have the head knowledge, and are taught weekly and even daily about the divine and ethical things, but have never truly known the heart knowledge that is saving grace.

Don,

Good point about "Will not come into the light"
So we agree that those who do believe comes into the light

So what of those who leave the light. Its not until you Dead (in the flesh) that eternity can take place correct?

Secondly, Is not Hebrews written to Christians?
If so, then doesn't he address Christians about their knowledge of the truth. Were THEY not being reminded that what they learned, being true, they consistantly sinned against God?
So Yes, their knowledge of the Truth is what condemns them because they don't live by it.
So biblically recorded these Christian loss their salvation through repeated sin, correct?

We know the early church had the Apostles and that they were taught correctly regarding salvation. That's not an issue. Its the Churches today the has the "Knowledge of Truth" issue.
So we can be assured that Whatever was taught then to them and that very thing they "Willingly" sinned against cause THEM to Have no more sacrifice of Jesus in GODs GRACE.

EVER READ ROMANS chapter 1 & 2? Paul is talking to christians about them living like unbelievers and showing contempt for GOds mercy, patients, grace. And that GOD will judge all who lives wickedly, HE SHOWS NO FAVORTISM!
READ IT! Let me know what you think. Don't forget to answer my questions above.

Thanks

[ July 24, 2003, 08:24 AM: Message edited by: Tazman ]

Briguy · Jul 24, 2003

Don is right about the verse from Hebrews. Hebrews as a book was written to the Jews of that time. Some of the Jews had placed their trust in Christ, some were considering Christ, and some had denied christ. The writer encompasses what all three groups are going through throughout the book.

On a different OSAS thread I mentioned the verse where Jesus said He who drinks of the water I give will NEVER thirst again. I believe only one person tried to counter that verse and not very well. There may have been other comments but I can't remember. I still see the very words of Jesus saying NEVER as a concrete reason to believe in OSAS. I.E. I drink of the water jesus brought to earth and I am saved. I drink why? because i am thirsty. Jesus says I will NEVER thirst again!!! If I were to lose my salvation i would thirst again, right? Don't unbelievers thirst after Jesus? Isn't that what being drawn by the Holy Spirit is all about?

Yes, I for one was saved forever and will never thirst again, Praise God for that gift, a gift i did not deserve.

To me I wonder why people wouldn't want OSAS to be true. Why would people fight against an unwavering God who once he has us will never let us go? I just don't get that

In Love and eternal life,
Brian

trying2understand · Jul 24, 2003

Originally posted by Briguy:
Jesus says I will NEVER thirst again!!! If I were to lose my salvation i would thirst again, right? Don't unbelievers thirst after Jesus? Isn't that what being drawn by the Holy Spirit is all about?

Yes, I for one was saved forever and will never thirst again, Praise God for that gift, a gift i did not deserve.

To me I wonder why people wouldn't want OSAS to be true. Why would people fight against an unwavering God who once he has us will never let us go? I just don't get that

In Love and eternal life,
Brian

Hi Brain,

I trust that all is well with you.

It's not a matter of wanting OSAS to be true or not, but trying to discover what is true.

How do you account for those who say that they accepted Christ, changed their lives and lived as Christians for years, and then at some later point ceased in that life?

Would you say that they are still saved and will go to heaven no matter what?

Or would you say that they were not saved to begin with?

Ron

Don · Jul 24, 2003

Originally posted by Tazman:
Don,

Good point about "Will not come into the light"
So we agree that those who do believe comes into the light So what of those who leave the light. Its not until you Dead (in the flesh) that eternity can take place correct?

Where do you find a verse that says people leave the light? It certainly wasn't John 3:19.

Secondly, Is not Hebrews written to Christians?
If so, then doesn't he address Christians about their knowledge of the truth. Were THEY not being reminded that what they learned, being true, they consistantly sinned against God?
So Yes, their knowledge of the Truth is what condemns them because they don't live by it.
So biblically recorded these Christian loss their salvation through repeated sin, correct?

If I write a letter to a church or group of people--let's say, for example, the church you attend--am I guaranteed that everyone there is saved? Or is it because I judge not according to the appearance, but righteous judgment (John 7:24), using the fruits of the spirit vs. the works of the flesh (Galatians 5) that I can tell the letter needs to be written, reminding people they need to get themselves right with God? Possibly even those that are indulging in the works of the flesh need to get saved? In which case, even though they claim the title "Christian," they fall under the category of "I knew you not"?

EVER READ ROMANS chapter 1 & 2? Paul is talking to christians about them living like unbelievers and showing contempt for GOds mercy, patients, grace. And that GOD will judge all who lives wickedly, HE SHOWS NO FAVORTISM!
READ IT! Let me know what you think. Don't forget to answer my questions above.

I've read it a lot, and I still believe the same way: Our works, our fruits, reflect our spiritual state, and those that choose to continue in sin even after having been shown the truth need to seriously ask themselves if they're truly saved.

If they can honestly answer yes, even though you and I both know the Bible says what they're doing is sin, who are you or I to judge their salvation? When the final judgment comes, and that individual is thrown into the lake of fire, we'll both weep and say, "We tried to tell them...." Or, conversely, we might both look surprised and say, "Well, I'll be...."

-------------------------------------------------

Trying2Understand,

How do you account for those who say that they accepted Christ, changed their lives and lived as Christians for years, and then at some later point ceased in that life?

At what point did the prodigal son stop being his father's son? By the time he wallowed with the pigs? Before that? When?

Tazman · Jul 24, 2003

Originally posted by Briguy:
Don is right about the verse from Hebrews. Hebrews as a book was written to the Jews of that time. Some of the Jews had placed their trust in Christ, some were considering Christ, and some had denied christ. The writer encompasses what all three groups are going through throughout the book.

On a different OSAS thread I mentioned the verse where Jesus said He who drinks of the water I give will NEVER thirst again. I believe only one person tried to counter that verse and not very well. There may have been other comments but I can't remember. I still see the very words of Jesus saying NEVER as a concrete reason to believe in OSAS. I.E. I drink of the water jesus brought to earth and I am saved. I drink why? because i am thirsty. Jesus says I will NEVER thirst again!!! If I were to lose my salvation i would thirst again, right? Don't unbelievers thirst after Jesus? Isn't that what being drawn by the Holy Spirit is all about?

Yes, I for one was saved forever and will never thirst again, Praise God for that gift, a gift i did not deserve.

To me I wonder why people wouldn't want OSAS to be true. Why would people fight against an unwavering God who once he has us will never let us go? I just don't get that

In Love and eternal life,
Brian

Brian,

I would love to believe that no matter if I turn my back on God and not live righteous that I will still enter eternal life, but the fact of matter is that what you are proposing contradicts all the warning given by Jesus and his Apostles. I would loved to not have to respond in repentance to the Holy Spirit, but I must because of my Love for God, and His commands

You never Answered my question "Were these Christians being warned in Hebrews 10 about there sin causing them to become enemies of God?

Secondly I believe that you should quote the whole scripture you intend on making your point with.

John 4:13 "Jesus answered, "Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again, 14but whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life."

Jesus is not saying that you are saved no matter what you do. Turning Away from Him is not the Subject he's addressing Here. Seeking Him IS the Subject!
Do you look a dictionary under "Saved" if your looking to know the exact meaning of "Lost"

No, you do both. You don't take one definition an assume what the other means. I would agree with your logic if the bible didn't say anything about "Falling Away" "Turning From God" "Blot out your name from Book of Life(Jesus Rev 3:5b)", "Hebrews 6:4-14". AND more and more.

Isn't the "Thirsty" person desire for God the point?
What about the SECOND part of what Jesus Said?
"Indeed, the water I give him WILL (Future) Become (Not "IS" or "Has Become") in him a spring of water WELLING (Growth - not arrival) up to ETERNAL LIFE (The Goal)

There is a goal of us staying faithful (Persevering), beyond the point of "A GREATER Heavenly GIFT", but Just to stay in love with God in deed and faith!

tragic_pizza · Jul 24, 2003

Originally posted by Don:

At what point did the prodigal son stop being his father's son? By the time he wallowed with the pigs? Before that? When?

Click to expand...

He never stopped being the father's son. But had he stubbornly resolved to remain in the far country, he would have died still separated from his father.

And isn't separation from the father equivalent with a lack of salvation???

Tazman · Jul 24, 2003

Originally posted by Don:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Tazman:
Don,

Good point about "Will not come into the light"
So we agree that those who do believe comes into the light So what of those who leave the light. Its not until you Dead (in the flesh) that eternity can take place correct?

Where do you find a verse that says people leave the light? It certainly wasn't John 3:19.

Secondly, Is not Hebrews written to Christians?
If so, then doesn't he address Christians about their knowledge of the truth. Were THEY not being reminded that what they learned, being true, they consistantly sinned against God?
So Yes, their knowledge of the Truth is what condemns them because they don't live by it.
So biblically recorded these Christian loss their salvation through repeated sin, correct?

Click to expand...

If I write a letter to a church or group of people--let's say, for example, the church you attend--am I guaranteed that everyone there is saved? Or is it because I judge not according to the appearance, but righteous judgment (John 7:24), using the fruits of the spirit vs. the works of the flesh (Galatians 5) that I can tell the letter needs to be written, reminding people they need to get themselves right with God? Possibly even those that are indulging in the works of the flesh need to get saved? In which case, even though they claim the title "Christian," they fall under the category of "I knew you not"?

EVER READ ROMANS chapter 1 & 2? Paul is talking to christians about them living like unbelievers and showing contempt for GOds mercy, patients, grace. And that GOD will judge all who lives wickedly, HE SHOWS NO FAVORTISM!
READ IT! Let me know what you think. Don't forget to answer my questions above.

Click to expand...

I've read it a lot, and I still believe the same way: Our works, our fruits, reflect our spiritual state, and those that choose to continue in sin even after having been shown the truth need to seriously ask themselves if they're truly saved.

If they can honestly answer yes, even though you and I both know the Bible says what they're doing is sin, who are you or I to judge their salvation? When the final judgment comes, and that individual is thrown into the lake of fire, we'll both weep and say, "We tried to tell them...." Or, conversely, we might both look surprised and say, "Well, I'll be...."

-------------------------------------------------

Trying2Understand,

How do you account for those who say that they accepted Christ, changed their lives and lived as Christians for years, and then at some later point ceased in that life?

Click to expand...

At what point did the prodigal son stop being his father's son? By the time he wallowed with the pigs? Before that? When? </font>[/QUOTE]Don,

We do agree that Hebrews, though broken up in chapter & Verses, still incorporate a complete letter?
If so, The letter as ALWAYS is addressed to the Church (Heb 6:11 We have much to say about this, but it is hard to explain because you are slow to learn. 12In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God's word all over again."
The Hebrew writer never changes audiences, but really continues on the same subject plulling everything together.
These people were ALREADY TAUGHT THE BASICS OF FAITH. They were being reminded because of false teachings and worldly influence about Jesus!

John 3:19 Mentions entering the Light, I only asked the question of Leaving the Light!

Scripture don't conflict, but its our desires based on sentimentality that uses scripture incorrectly.

Secondly the Prodical Son Left, notice the Father didn't chase him, The Father stayed at Home! Why was it important for the Father to stay (this is silly, but its only to open you eyes)

Briguy · Jul 24, 2003

Hi Ron, I am doing OK, been better but hanging in there. Thanks for asking. I hope you are doing OK as well. I was in upper WI earlier in the month and remembered you are thinking of retiring to upper MI at some point. (I think you said upper) Anyway if upper MI is as nice as upper WI it will be a great place to be.

I answered your question on the "paradox" thread.

TP read the NASB version of John 4:12&13

Jesus answered and said to her, "Everyone who drinks of this water shall thirst again;
but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life. "

Does that sound like some future happening to you. Jesus is saying that the living water is among us and we can choose to drink it and if we do we will never thirst. The implication is again, even if the text doesn't say again. To want to drink you must be thirsty. Once you drink you never thirst. It is complete. If you are saying it is not complete until we die with our faith solid then the well doesn't reall start springing until that point. This verse is saying that the spring starts when we drink and that spring is taking us to eternal life. Once eternal life starts it can't be stopped or it is not eternal. Picture if you will, the fat boy stuck in the tube in Willy Wonka. Once in the tube there was no going back the spring (water) behind pushed him to his destination, so is the spring that pushes us and there is no going back. That is what the verse is saying, "No going back"

In Christ,
Brian

A_Christian · Jul 24, 2003

The Prodical Son returned! He never stopped being
the man's son. In fact, it was the older "wiser?"
son that stayed home, who creates a bit of a riff.

The son that went out on his own made a Big
error of personal judgement. However, he learned
the lesson. The son that remained behind did
what he did out of self-pride and not out of
love for his father. He was concerned only for
himself.

3AngelsMom · Jul 24, 2003

Brian,

Just popping in.

Question:

What evidence do you have outside of that verse that convinces you that you have already received this 'living water'?

What makes you think that you have already drank it?

God Bless,
Kelly

Singer · Jul 24, 2003

Kelly,

The thirst; like the yearning to fill the "God Void" that is in each of us is
quenched upon 'filling' by the Holy Spirit.

This verse has shown that fact to me:

John 6:35
And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me
shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

Never is a big word. Never hunger. NEVER HUNGER !!!!

The word "again" should not have to accompany it.

You don't hunger for Christ, Kelly. You already have Him. You hunger
to please Him and you hunger for righteousness and the reality of heaven,
but you don't hunger for Christ in the way that unsaved people do.

3AngelsMom · Jul 24, 2003

Howie,

Even in that passage, it has a stipulation: He that BELIEVETH on Me, won't thirst!

What if a person, believed but then STOPPED believing?

I find it dishonest for people to say that those people 'weren't really saved in the first place' so please don't say that!

I watched my brother LEAVE his salvation at the door of my parents church, when BITTERNESS sprang up in him.

I LIVED it, as I left the doors of their church as bitterness sprang up in me!

I was LOST during that time in my life when I was NOT trusting Christ, nor was I living in faith, grace or any kind of relationship with God!

Why is it so important to OSAS folks to HAVE this doctrine?

DC Talk said it best:

"The greatest single cause of atheism in the world today is Christians, who acknowledge Jesus with their MOUTH and walk out the door and deny Him by their lifestyle. THAT is what an unbelieving world SIMPLY finds UNBELIEVABLE!"

Those who THINK that they have eternal security no matter WHAT they do wrong, make Christianity LOOK BAD. AND in return make JESUS look bad. We are to LIVE in Faith, and Grace. Not just possess it!

If we sin willfully after we have come to the knowledge of the truth (about JESUS) there is then no longer a sacrifice for our sins.

That means something!

God Bless,
Kelly

once saved always saved for baptists

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