once saved always saved for baptists

And if, at some point in the future, you determine to not have faith in Jesus (God forbid), and you die lacking faith in Jesus. Do you still have Salvation?

The human mind, heart and spirit, do have the capability to change. Therefore man can by changing his mind, lose salvation. That is why it is imperitive that man study to show himself approved unto God..., and to "grow in Grace and in the admonition of Word of God" so that FAITH strengthens and does not dimish.

We cannot retain our faith without continuously reading God's word, and gathering together for worship, and discipling others in the faith. All of these activities are Faith Works (lifestyle) that we do once we come to faith in God.

 

I have been studying on this alot...& i am getting the ideal that most of the posting on here is based on the ideal that you are believeing in works getting you to heaven?

But according to what gods word says its not by works....its by his promise to us, & most of all are faith in him.... His promise to us is if we trust in him our salvation is promised...& does the lord lie..? He does not!

He said if we confess we are a sinner & believe in our hearts that jesus died & rose from the grave on the 3rd day that he would save us....

So did he or did he not make this promise to us?

So our works alone is not going to keep us saved & this is what most are emplying from what i can see here....you say we have to do this & this to keep our salvation.....You cannot earn your salvation....

You recieve your salvation by the lords grace threw your faith in him, you trust in him. Yes we are to strive everyday to do his will...but that is not the way we get our salvation, your salvation is threw faith in him. You give your heart & soul to the lord & trust him threw your faith you have in him....

So again....I ask you did he lie to us? remember he made us this promise.

 

Yes, he made this promise. But even you qualified it with an "if". What happens when someone *stops* confessing and believing?

 

For those who think we human's have no control over our own salvation, you are quite simply wrong because man is the one who changes!

 

Willow ,

God had not lied but men has not understood. The biblical backing to OSAS is built on some scriptures not all scriptures. Ones view of God has become ones view of himself. Think about it.
Jesus tells us to do thing thats out of our concept of thinking and really doesn't make sense to us.
Example: Someone slap you, you are supposed to turn the other cheek. In my worldly way of thinking How could I follow a God who think it glorious for me to take a licking and ask for more. Wouldn't a Loving Father want me to defend myself? How about run? No REAL Father would want their son beatup on?
Now this is just an example, but I could go on and on to comprimise what Jesus commanded to fit what I "FEEL" a God should be like.
Maybe if you guys Seek him, meaning learn more about his true charactor, then maybe you can still love a God that will let you go if it means protecting HIS Other children from your UNREPENTED SIN

God is all the more loving when you see him as he truely is </font>[/QUOTE]I do seek the lords will in my life... &
I do ask the lord to forgive my sins...But i donot see how we could have the time to serve the lord if we had to worrie about all the sins we were comiting...& worrie about if we were going to lose our salvation...cause we are human & the lord knows this....so therefore he knows we are going to make mistakes....so if our salvation is based on us being able to cover our sinful nature, then i believe we are in big trouble..

 

Original question:

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
--The reason a person must be born again (saved) is because he needs to be born into God's family. He is not born into God's family automatically at birth. Nicodemus, a grown man, had to make an active decision to be a part of God's family. Before that he was part of the devil's family (John 8:44), by virtue of his sin nature.

Paul describes the unsaved person in Eph.2,2,3, as, "children of disobedience," and "children of wrath." John in John 1 says:

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

You must receive Christ--believe on his name. Then you will become a child of God. Verse 13 goes on to say that by believing we are born of God. Receiving Christ as my Saviour, I am born into the family of God--I am born again.

If I am born into God's family, God is my Father and He will never disown me. He has given me the gift of eternal life.
"The wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Chrtist our Lord." (Rom.6:23)
When God gives eternal life, then that is what it means--eternal. If eternal could stop at any time it would no longer be eternal and God would be found to be a liar. The gift of God is eternal life, not temporary, but eternal. You cannot lose eternal life. That is an impossibility.

Furthermore, consider what Jesus Himself says:
John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.

Once saved Jesus calls us His sheep. He says of His sheep that: 1. they hear his voice.
2. He knows who they are.
3. They follow Him.
4. He gives unto them eternal life
5. They shall never perish
6. No man shall pluck them out of His hand.
7. His Father gave them to Him.
8. No man shall be able to pluch them out of the Father's hand!

With the above guarantees in place how can one say that they would lose their salvation. We are His sheep. He knows who we are. We shall never perish. Never means never. Words do have meanings here. Never perish--never lose their salvation. Never be plucked out of the Father's hand.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
--The result of believing on Jesus:
1. everlasting life.
2. shall not come into condemnation.
3. is passed from death unto life.
--The verbs has and is are present, meaning we have everlasting life, we are passed from death unto life right now--at the moment we receive Christ. We are made spiritually alive, and given eternal life.

At the point of salvation one becomes a new creature in Christ:
2Cor.5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
--Old things are passed away and all things are become new. This is not to say that a person will never want to sin again; that just is not true. Temptation will always be there. What it does mean is that the Holy Spirit comes and resides within and begins to change a person from within. He becomes a new creature in Christ. Christ changes us from the inside.

Rom.8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
--There is no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus--none.

what happens when a believer sins? Do they lose their salvation? No. There is no condemnation. Their sin has been paid for by the blood of Christ. He has already atoned for all of our sins: the past, the present, and the future. Thus when I sin, my fellowship with God is broken, but my salvation is not lost. That is why John wrote:

1John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
--This verse is written to Christians, not the unsaved. It is written so that we can confess our sin and restore our fellowship with God on a daily basis. It has nothing to do with losing one's salvation.

Does OSAS give a licence to to sin? No. absolutely not. Here is what Paul said.
Rom.6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
--Salvation is not a licence to sin. Paul makes that clear in these verses.
There is much more on OSAS. I hope that this is enough to be of some help to you.
DHK

 

And yet one must be initially "saved" before Jesus can become their lord.

declaring Jesus as personal savior preceeds the declaration of Jesus being the believers Lord or God.

osas in my opinion encompasses even those who do not become disciples of Jesus.

 

Me2, I would humbly submit that declaring Jesus as personal savior is the same as declaring Him Lord and God.

However, could you distinguish for me who the disciples of Jesus are? Are you saying everyone (including unbelievers) are saved?

 

Hi don,

followers acknowledge Jesus as Christ only.

disciples acknowledge Jesus as Christ and Lord.

the proponents of lordship salvation teach that one must make Christ, Lord in order to be saved. they make the calling of discipleship for those who are yet unsaved. one must believe the Gospel, and have faith, and make Christ lord, in order to be saved.

this is a condition that must be met by someone who does not yet know what the Lordship of Christ means.

to me Christ as savior means I have been taught of the Holy spirit that Christ has been raised from the dead.
For Jesus to be my Lord means that I have received Jesus spirit within me and I myself have been raised from the dead with Him. It means that my understanding is, that Jesus has proven himself to defeat death itself and He has defeated all enemies and sits on the right hand of God, as God.

we dont make spiritual babies understand this as it is a process that consists of a specific order of Learning one truth after another followed by accepting the understanding by FAITH.
thats seeing with trained spiritual eyes and ears.

now back to Lordship salvation..

those are spiritual experiences that must be accepted BEFORE a proponent of Lordship salvation will accept one as "Truly" being Saved.
anything less is perceived and conviniently allowed as judging others as not really being initially saved.

to me its another misunderstanding of the process of sanctification (which lordship proponents cant even define) and receiving Gods free Gift of initial salvation and receiving of Gods Spirit.

Me2

 

Those who do not feel that man can "fall from Grace" (Galations 5 not withstanding) also see clearly that apart from God - man is dead in sin.

Yet in Luke 8 the dead barren ground "springs to life" as the gospel enters and man believes - then it dies again - in two of the scenarios.

In Matt 18 - last half of the chapter "Forgiveness revoked" showing How God's kingdom works regarding forgiveness.

In John 15 - Branches IN CHRIST - are removed and burned.

IN Romans 11 Paul states that those removed from Christ "He is able to graft them in AGAIN IF they do not continue in unbelief".

Questions?

In Christ,

Bob

 

OSAS and Calvinism.

1. Five PT Calvinism states (in practice) you can NOT know if you are saved UNTIL you see yourself persevere 10 years from now. If you FAIL to persevere - then your salvation and assurance is retro-deleted.

2. 3 PT Calvinism has the same difficulty as 5PT.

3. 4 PT Calvinism CAN absolutely have OSAS assurance since it trashes the Bible concept of Persevering firm until the end as "optional".

4. The Arminian view "can KNOW" that you are saved today - but not that you will STAY saved next year. It is the ONE model - aside from 4pt Calvinism that can have assurance today.

In Christ,

Bob

 

bobryan,

Galatians speaks that Christ Profited the believer nothing and that they have fallen from grace.

Just "How far" do you say this individual falls?

out of a condition of being "eternally" saved ?

Me2

 

Tazman said,

Works are simply any effort expended by man for man's benefit, performed in anticipation of reward.

Whether or not those works are performed in accordance with law, or by and through self volition, works done without a preceeding and present faith in God are dead works. They do not produce Faith Results!

 

Tazman,

God sees everyone that has his sons spirit as having been clothed with the righteousness of Christ. they belong to Him.

every believer starts off as a follower, VERY FEW move forward into desiring to be disciples.

yet, becoming a disciple of the Lord Jesus Christ is the final Goal of every believer whether they succeed or fail.

most fail

simply because it involves abdicating control to another that is invisible and unknown..

our old nature is strong and there are many reinforcing agents around us that we can see and touch to draw us away from what the desires of Christ are.

test the spirits
Listen carefully to others..do they mention Jesus is their lord without prompting?

Most dont know what that means.....


anyhow, I know the difference of a follower and a disciple, yet Im not willing to simply judge a follower and condemning them to an afterlife of being tormented in hell,
if their lifes choices are not to become a disciple of Jesus. they do have the spirit of God within them and...

God would prompt them if they were in error and if change was manditory, wouldnt you think?

I see believers follow various lives after they have received Gods spirit.

some are simple pew sitters or followers.
some become disciples
some become adimate antichrists...
some become reprobates, and backsliders.

we just cant make disciples of every believer. they also have a choice in the matter.
but we can assure them that they are still in the hands of a God that saved them at some time in their past. OSAS...

Me2