about the Catholic Church

Sirach said

The problem with Mariology is its being stated in the form of Mariolotry.

#1. Worshipping at Mary's altars.
#2. Mary - sinless like Christ,
#3. Mary all powerful
#4. Mary - at the command of Mary even God obeys.
#5. Mary - co redeemer with Christ
#6. Mary - Co mediator with Christ
#7. Mary - omnipresent all-hearing all-knowing all-caring provider for all saints as they pray TO HER.

I thought of posting the RC authorities that make these claims - but that takes up some space so please let me know if you are not fully informed on one or the other of these claims for mariolotry.

In Christ,

Bob

 

This is what you said to me "been to a bad parish." It is what you said to James. I believe it is what you say to every former Catholic that gives their testimony. It is stock answer that I hear over and over again. Yet both he and I distinctly told you the same thing (something we both have in common). You either don't read well or ignore facts. How can we have a bad parish when we both moved around, lived in different places, went to different churches in different parts of the countries. Is the Catholic Church that bad off that it can't teach its own doctrine properly in all of its churches straight across North America?? I would vote yes to that.
DHK

 

Christ was in Mary's womb. Christ's spirit was in Mary's womb. Luke 1:28.

Every saint in Heaven is eternal. Mary, is in Heaven.

Mary has not always been. Christ has always been. Mary will now live forever because she is in Heaven, as will all Christians who go to Heaven.


Again I STRESS I am NOT debating theology. I am stating facts to what the Catholic Church teaches and show those of you with misunderstandings what they teach, I am NOT saying that they are correct.


How can so many people who cry "Lord, Lord" be so blinded by hate that they can't see misconceptions to what the Church really teaches?

Matt 7:18
A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a rotten tree bear good fruit.
19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 So by their fruits you will know them.
21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.
22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?'
23 Then I will declare to them solemnly, 'I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers.'


Is the will of the father to pass on rumors and misconceptions of others? No, I don't think so.


Again I say... If I am wrong, show me with links to a Catholic Source, or your words are of little value because it is amply proven that many habor misconceptions, even those who claim to be once Catholic.

Also, I'm not saying the Catholic Church is right, but if we are to witness to Catholics about what they believe, we must get it right.


God Bless,
Sirach </font>[/QUOTE]To make things really simple, the Catholic church's catechism has no authority whatsover with God, or over me. God gave us the Bible, not the catechism. John 12:48 "He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day." John 17:14 "I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world."

Jesus spake of those who put man's traditions above His word. Matthew 15:3,7-9 "...Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men."

Every one of us will stand before God one day and give an account of our lives. I was a product of what Rome teaches, as are most of my family members and friends from back in Chicago. When I speak to them of Christ and the new birth, they stubbornly cling, in fear, to Rome and her teachings. I see in them what I once was. My own mother admitted to me that she could see the point I was trying to make about repentance and faith, but, in her own words, "I have been taught this since I was a child. It's been beaten into my head, and I can't believe any different." Before I was saved, I had switched my allegiance from the Catholic church to the Baptist church. God had to bring me to the place of rejecting everything I was clinging to, stop trusting in myself, acknowledge that I was a sinner deserving hell, and trust the Lord Jesus Christ as my only hope of salvation. Now I'm justified, redeemed, cleansed by the blood, a new creature in Christ, a joint-heir with Christ, and my name is written in the Lamb's book of life in heaven. With that in mind, I want everyone else to join me in heaven. But they won't get there by trusting in their church (be it Catholic, Baptist, or otherwise), or their works. They have to come by "...repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ." Acts 20:21

In Christ,
Tim

 

daktim:

My experience in having been raised Catholic was much the same as yours; and like yours, my family clings in fear to the traditions they were taught apart from the bible.

Praise God that His Word is sufficient. His Word leads us to Jesus who saves us!

PA

 

Daktim--

Sounds like you will not have to stop and check to see if you made it to heaven as well as millions of others--born again--by the grace of God.

Praise His Holy Name

Selah,

Bro. James

 

Amen, amen DHK, Priscilla Ann, and Bro. James! Praise the Lord!!

daktim

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by BobRyan:

The problem with Mariology is its being stated in the form of Mariolotry.

#1. Worshipping at Mary's altars.
#2. Mary - sinless like Christ,
#3. Mary all powerful
#4. Mary - at the command of Mary even God obeys.
#5. Mary - co redeemer with Christ
#6. Mary - Co mediator with Christ
#7. Mary - omnipresent all-hearing all-knowing all-caring provider for all saints as they pray TO HER.

I thought of posting the RC authorities that make these claims - but that takes up some space so please let me know if you are not fully informed on one or the other of these claims for mariolotry.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Actually "Redemptrix" does not mean "woman WITH the redeemer" it is the female gender for Redeemer! (A very DIFFERENT thing than saying there existed a woman at the time the Redeemer was alive and working).

Co-Redemptrix WITH CHRIST means that she was REDEEMING mankind ALONG WITH Christ!

I would agree with that - co-redemptrix WITH Christ is like the Pilot co-pilot where BOTH are working to accomplish the same Goal and BOTH are needed to fly the plane!!

That is EXACTLY the problem by contrast to the "ONE MEDIATOR between God and man" doctrine that the Bible teaches.

CO-Redemtrix and CO-mediatrix -- a huge problem by Bible standards. Your Pilot and co-pilot illustration is perfect!

Here are the Catholic sources for Co-pilot... I mean Co redemptrix

 

Unimaginably hidious idolatry and heresy.

May God have mercy.

Mike

 

When I speak of worshipping at Mary's altars - I only mean the following


Some of our Catholic brethren have argued the point by saying "you never find us worshipping Mary".

For in support of that you will NEVER find anything like the Following praise and worship to God given to Mary.

For example see what “we do NOT find” among our Catholic sources…

WORSHIP at Mary’s Altars

In this form it would appear that all this praise, prayer, honor, veneration and glory applies to Mary and would even at that small level be a gross error.

So – we sure are glad that it is NOT out there.

However - to "correct" that quote so that it IS "exactly" what we DO find the Papal authority saying -- all we have to do is remove all the references to God - and replace them with references to Mary.!!!

Here is the correct quote – this is what Pope Pius XII “DID” write…

In this case we just TAKE CHRIST OUT of the incorrect quote above – so that it just references MARY ALONE!! Doing that gives us the EXACT teaching as the Pope actually taught it.

In Christ,

Bob

 

When I say that she is said to be all powerful (like God) I only mean it in the following way --

ALL POWERFUL

All Powerful Mary –

In Christ,

Bob

 

Bob,
Have you read the book in its entirity? If not, how can you make a sound judgements on snippets that you have found elsewhere?

Let us see what St. Alphonsus writes at the very beginning of his book. He dedicates it "To Jesus and Mary":

My most loving Redeemer and Lord Jesus Christ, I, Thy miserable servant . . . I know not, however, to whom I could better recommend it than to Thee, who hast her glory so much at heart. To Thee, therefore, do I dedicate and commend it . . . this Immaculate Virgin in whom Thou hast placed the hope and whom Thou hast made the refuge of all the redeemed . . .

And now I turn to thee, O my most sweet Lady and Mother Mary. Thou well knowest that, after Jesus, I have placed my entire hope of salvation in thee; for I acknowledge that everything good -- my conversion, my vocation to renounce the world and all the other graces that I have received from God -- all were given me through thy means. (p. 23)

"And now, to say all in a few words: God, to glorify the Mother of the Redeemer, has so determined and disposed that of her great charity she should intercede on behalf of all those for whom his divine Son paid and offered the superabundant price of his precious blood in which alone is our salvation, life, and resurrection."

On this doctrine, and on all that is in accordance with it, I ground my propositions . . . the plenitude of all grace which is in Christ as the Head, from which it flows, as from its source; and in Mary, as in the neck through which it flows. (p. 26)

for we know that Jesus Christ is our only Saviour, and that he alone by his merits has obtained and obtains salvation for us . . . (p. 137)


. . it is one thing to say that God cannot, and another that he will not, grant graces without the intercession of Mary. We willingly admit that God is the source of every good, and the absolute master of all graces; and that Mary is only a pure creature, who receives whatever she obtains as a pure favor from God . . . We most readily admit that Jesus Christ is the only Mediator of justice . . . and that by his merits he obtains us all graces and salvation; but we say that Mary is the mediatress of grace; and that receiving all she obtains through Jesus Christ, and because she prays and asks for it in the name of Jesus Christ . . . (pp. 156-157)

. . . when these saints and authors tell us in such terms that all graces come to us through Mary, they do not simply mean to say that we "received Jesus Christ, the source of every good, through Mary," as the before-named writer pretends; but that they assure us that God, who gave us Jesus Christ, wills that all graces that have been, that are, and will be dispensed to men to the end of the world through the merits of Christ, should be dispensed by the hands and through the intercession of Mary . . . [this is] necessary, . . . not with an absolute necessity; for the mediation of Christ alone is absolutely necessary; but with a moral necessity . . . (p. 162)

. . . Jesus now in heaven sits at the right hand of the Father . . . He has supreme dominion over all, and also over Mary . . . (p. 179)

"Be comforted, O unfortunate soul, who hast lost thy God," says St. Bernard; "thy Lord himself has provided thee with a mediator, and this is his Son Jesus, who can obtain for thee all that thou desirest. He has given thee Jesus for a mediator; and what is there that such a son cannot obtain from the Father?"

. . . If your fear arises from having offended God, know that Jesus has fastened all your sins on the cross with his own lacerated hands, and having satisfied divine justice for them by his death, he has already effaced them from your souls . . . " . . . What do you fear, O ye of little faith? . . . But if by chance," adds the saint, "thou fearest to have recourse to Jesus Christ because the majesty of God in him overawes thee -- for though he became man, he did not cease to be God -- and thou desirest another advocate with this divine mediator, go to Mary, for she will intercede for thee with the Son, who will most certainly hear her; and then he will intercede with the Father, who can deny nothing to such a son." (pp. 200-201)


Let's summarize, then, the explicit statements thus far by St. Alphonsus, teaching that God, not Mary, is the source of all salvation and grace, and that Mary is by no means, in no way, shape, or form, divine, but a mere creature, whom God uses in an extraordinary fashion:

1) "My most loving Redeemer and Lord Jesus Christ"
2) "graces that I have received from God"
3) "his precious blood in which alone is our salvation, life, and resurrection."
4) "the plenitude of all grace which is in Christ as the Head, from which it flows, as from its source"
5) "God is the source of every good, and the absolute master of all graces"
6) "Mary is only a pure creature"
7) "Mary . . . receives whatever she obtains as a pure favor from God"
8) "Jesus Christ is the only Mediator of justice"
9) "by his merits he obtains us all graces and salvation"
10) " receiving all she obtains through Jesus Christ, . . . in the name of Jesus Christ"
11) ". . . all graces that have been, that are, and will be dispensed to men . . . through the merits of Christ"
12) " the mediation of Christ alone is absolutely necessary"
13) "Jesus . . . has supreme dominion over all, and also over Mary"
14) "a mediator, . . . his Son Jesus, who can obtain for thee all that thou desirest."
15) "He has given thee Jesus for a mediator; and what is there that such a son cannot obtain from the Father?"
16) "Jesus . . . having satisfied divine justice for them [our sins] by his death, he has already effaced them from your souls"

 

deleted because it was entered twice. My apologies

 

Well I have read enough to know that the book does NOT say

"Here is an example of a teaching about Mary that we would NEVER claim since it would be blasphemy.


All power is given to Thee [Mary] in heaven and on earth that at the command of Mary all obey, even God.
"

And since the quote is very correct and accurate in that regard - and the book is NOT refuting that statement ....

The quote stands.

Your point that the author ALSO considers Christ to be all-powerful and ALSO thinks that worshipping Mary as an allpowerful being is NOT really worship and is not really blapshemy - is a given.

I never argue that Catholics "claim" that their teaching is in error.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Indeed

Mary - we worship at your altars - how extraordinary!

Mary - you are allpowerful along with Christ - how extraordinary!

Mary you are the Queen of the UNIVERSE - how extraordinary!

Mary we PRAY TO YOU and we seek YOU for YOU are solicitous about ALL MANKIND! How extraordinary.

Mary you are sinless LIKE CHRIST - how extraordinary!

...

The list goes on.

In Christ,

Bob

 

We "see" these gross errors IN THE RC text ITSELF and then are told by RC defenders that it is "sad" that we SEE IN THESE quotes -- "gross error" that contradicts scripture.

Well so be it - but the charge can NOT be made that these quotes are NOT coming right out of the RCC!

And I already gave the example of the SAME WORSHIP of Mary going to GOD - and what happens when we REMOVE God and put ONLY MARY into those worshippful prayers and praises - we get the EXACT quote of the RCC!

In Christ,

Bob