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BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Sirach said
Christ was in Mary's womb. Christ's spirit was in Mary's womb. Luke 1:28.

Every saint in Heaven is eternal. Mary, is in Heaven.

Mary has not always been. Christ has always been. Mary will now live forever because she is in Heaven, as will all Christians who go to Heaven.


Again I STRESS I am NOT debating theology. I am stating facts to what the Catholic Church teaches and show those of you with misunderstandings what they teach, I am NOT saying that they are correct.
The problem with Mariology is its being stated in the form of Mariolotry.

#1. Worshipping at Mary's altars.
#2. Mary - sinless like Christ,
#3. Mary all powerful
#4. Mary - at the command of Mary even God obeys.
#5. Mary - co redeemer with Christ
#6. Mary - Co mediator with Christ
#7. Mary - omnipresent all-hearing all-knowing all-caring provider for all saints as they pray TO HER.

I thought of posting the RC authorities that make these claims - but that takes up some space so please let me know if you are not fully informed on one or the other of these claims for mariolotry.

In Christ,

Bob
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Originally posted by Sirach:
Tim,

Please show me that teaching in the Catechism. You might have been at a bad parish.

It says alot that you can't remember the homilies. Sometimes people just go through the motions and miss what's going on in every church.
This is what you said to me "been to a bad parish." It is what you said to James. I believe it is what you say to every former Catholic that gives their testimony. It is stock answer that I hear over and over again. Yet both he and I distinctly told you the same thing (something we both have in common). You either don't read well or ignore facts. How can we have a bad parish when we both moved around, lived in different places, went to different churches in different parts of the countries. Is the Catholic Church that bad off that it can't teach its own doctrine properly in all of its churches straight across North America?? I would vote yes to that.
thumbs.gif

DHK
 

daktim

<img src =/11182.jpg>
Originally posted by Sirach:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by daktim:
Mary was used by God to house the human body of Christ, to give Him His humanity. Christ is eternal, Mary is not.
Christ was in Mary's womb. Christ's spirit was in Mary's womb. Luke 1:28.

Every saint in Heaven is eternal. Mary, is in Heaven.

Mary has not always been. Christ has always been. Mary will now live forever because she is in Heaven, as will all Christians who go to Heaven.


Again I STRESS I am NOT debating theology. I am stating facts to what the Catholic Church teaches and show those of you with misunderstandings what they teach, I am NOT saying that they are correct.


How can so many people who cry "Lord, Lord" be so blinded by hate that they can't see misconceptions to what the Church really teaches?

Matt 7:18
A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a rotten tree bear good fruit.
19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 So by their fruits you will know them.
21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.
22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?'
23 Then I will declare to them solemnly, 'I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers.'


Is the will of the father to pass on rumors and misconceptions of others? No, I don't think so.


Again I say... If I am wrong, show me with links to a Catholic Source, or your words are of little value because it is amply proven that many habor misconceptions, even those who claim to be once Catholic.

Also, I'm not saying the Catholic Church is right, but if we are to witness to Catholics about what they believe, we must get it right.


God Bless,
Sirach
</font>[/QUOTE]To make things really simple, the Catholic church's catechism has no authority whatsover with God, or over me. God gave us the Bible, not the catechism. John 12:48 "He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day." John 17:14 "I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world."

Jesus spake of those who put man's traditions above His word. Matthew 15:3,7-9 "...Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men."

Every one of us will stand before God one day and give an account of our lives. I was a product of what Rome teaches, as are most of my family members and friends from back in Chicago. When I speak to them of Christ and the new birth, they stubbornly cling, in fear, to Rome and her teachings. I see in them what I once was. My own mother admitted to me that she could see the point I was trying to make about repentance and faith, but, in her own words, "I have been taught this since I was a child. It's been beaten into my head, and I can't believe any different." Before I was saved, I had switched my allegiance from the Catholic church to the Baptist church. God had to bring me to the place of rejecting everything I was clinging to, stop trusting in myself, acknowledge that I was a sinner deserving hell, and trust the Lord Jesus Christ as my only hope of salvation. Now I'm justified, redeemed, cleansed by the blood, a new creature in Christ, a joint-heir with Christ, and my name is written in the Lamb's book of life in heaven. With that in mind, I want everyone else to join me in heaven. But they won't get there by trusting in their church (be it Catholic, Baptist, or otherwise), or their works. They have to come by "...repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ." Acts 20:21

In Christ,
Tim
 
daktim:

My experience in having been raised Catholic was much the same as yours; and like yours, my family clings in fear to the traditions they were taught apart from the bible.

Praise God that His Word is sufficient. His Word leads us to Jesus who saves us!

PA
 

Bro. James

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Daktim--

Sounds like you will not have to stop and check to see if you made it to heaven as well as millions of others--born again--by the grace of God.

Praise His Holy Name

Selah,

Bro. James
 
S

Sirach

Guest
Originally posted by BobRyan:
Sirach said
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />
Christ was in Mary's womb. Christ's spirit was in Mary's womb. Luke 1:28.

Every saint in Heaven is eternal. Mary, is in Heaven.

Mary has not always been. Christ has always been. Mary will now live forever because she is in Heaven, as will all Christians who go to Heaven.


Again I STRESS I am NOT debating theology. I am stating facts to what the Catholic Church teaches and show those of you with misunderstandings what they teach, I am NOT saying that they are correct.
The problem with Mariology is its being stated in the form of Mariolotry.

#1. Worshipping at Mary's altars.
#2. Mary - sinless like Christ,
#3. Mary all powerful
#4. Mary - at the command of Mary even God obeys.
#5. Mary - co redeemer with Christ
#6. Mary - Co mediator with Christ
#7. Mary - omnipresent all-hearing all-knowing all-caring provider for all saints as they pray TO HER.

I thought of posting the RC authorities that make these claims - but that takes up some space so please let me know if you are not fully informed on one or the other of these claims for mariolotry.

In Christ,

Bob
</font>[/QUOTE]Dear Bob,

I'm sorry, but according to the Catholic websites that I've been to, you are mistaken. There are many points that are wrong about the teachings of Mary.

The Catholic Church does not teach that Mary is the co-redeemer... the Catholic Church teaches that Mary is the Co-Redemtrix... it's Latin.

"Co" means "with"

The term "co-redemptrix" is properly translated "the woman with the redeemer" or more literally "she who buys back with [the redeemer]." The prefix "co" comes from the Latin term "cum" which means "with" and not "equal to."

Think of Pilot and co-piolot... the co-pilot is a helper of the Pilot.


As I asked before, I'll ask again, please provide links to a Catholic source for your statements if you want me to take them seriously.


Here is what the Church teaches on Mary:

http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1sect2chpt3art9p6.htm


Please see Objection 1 at:
http://www.voxpopuli.org/response_to_7_common_objections_part1.php


Show me with links to Catholic sources of what you claim or it's just straw men that you post.


God Bless,
Sirach
 
S

Sirach

Guest
Originally posted by Sirach:

Again I STRESS I am NOT debating theology. I am stating facts to what the Catholic Church teaches and show those of you with misunderstandings what they teach, I am NOT saying that they are correct.


How can so many people who cry "Lord, Lord" be so blinded by hate that they can't see misconceptions to what the Church really teaches?

Matt 7:18
A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a rotten tree bear good fruit.
19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 So by their fruits you will know them.
21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.
22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?'
23 Then I will declare to them solemnly, 'I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers.'


Is the will of the father to pass on rumors and misconceptions of others? No, I don't think so.


Again I say... If I am wrong, show me with links to a Catholic Source, or your words are of little value because it is amply proven that many habor misconceptions, even those who claim to be once Catholic.
I just want to point this out again.


God Bless, Your Servant in Christ,
Sirach
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by BobRyan:

The problem with Mariology is its being stated in the form of Mariolotry.

#1. Worshipping at Mary's altars.
#2. Mary - sinless like Christ,
#3. Mary all powerful
#4. Mary - at the command of Mary even God obeys.
#5. Mary - co redeemer with Christ
#6. Mary - Co mediator with Christ
#7. Mary - omnipresent all-hearing all-knowing all-caring provider for all saints as they pray TO HER.

I thought of posting the RC authorities that make these claims - but that takes up some space so please let me know if you are not fully informed on one or the other of these claims for mariolotry.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sirach said -
Dear Bob,

I'm sorry, but according to the Catholic websites that I've been to, you are mistaken. There are many points that are wrong about the teachings of Mary.

The Catholic Church does not teach that Mary is the co-redeemer... the Catholic Church teaches that Mary is the Co-Redemtrix... it's Latin.

"Co" means "with"

The term "co-redemptrix" is properly translated "the woman with the redeemer"
Actually "Redemptrix" does not mean "woman WITH the redeemer" it is the female gender for Redeemer! (A very DIFFERENT thing than saying there existed a woman at the time the Redeemer was alive and working).

Co-Redemptrix WITH CHRIST means that she was REDEEMING mankind ALONG WITH Christ!

Sirach
Think of Pilot and co-piolot... the co-pilot is a helper of the Pilot.
I would agree with that - co-redemptrix WITH Christ is like the Pilot co-pilot where BOTH are working to accomplish the same Goal and BOTH are needed to fly the plane!!

That is EXACTLY the problem by contrast to the "ONE MEDIATOR between God and man" doctrine that the Bible teaches.

CO-Redemtrix and CO-mediatrix -- a huge problem by Bible standards. Your Pilot and co-pilot illustration is perfect!

As I asked before, I'll ask again, please provide links to a Catholic source for your statements if you want me to take them seriously.
Here are the Catholic sources for Co-pilot... I mean Co redemptrix


CoRedemptrix -

"With equal truth may it be also affirmed that, by the will of God, Mary is the intermediary through whom is distributed unto us this immense treasure of mercies gathered by God, for mercy and truth were created by Jesus Christ, thus as no man goeth to the Father but by the Son, so no man goeth to Christ but by His Mother....How grateful and magnificent a spectacle to see in the cities, and towns, and villages, on land and sea—wherever the Catholic
faith has penetrated—many hundreds of thousands of pious people uniting their praises and prayers with one voice and heart at every moment of the day, saluting Mary, invoking Mary, hoping everything through Mary." - Pope Leo XIII, Octobri Mense

"O Virgin most holy, none abounds in the knowledge of God except through thee; none, O Mother of God, obtains salvation except through thee, none receives a gift from the throne of mercy except through thee." - Pope Leo XIII, Adiutricem Populi

"Mary suffered and, as it were, nearly died with her suffering Son; for the salvation of mankind she renounced her mother's rights and, as far as it depended on her, offered her Son to placate divine justice; so we may well say that she with Christ redeemed mankind." - Pope Benedict XV, Inter Sodalicia

"Mary's suffering [at Calvary], beside the suffering of Jesus, reached an intensity which can hardly be imagined from a human point of view but which was mysteriously and supernaturally fruitful for the Redemption of the world." - Pope John Paul II, Salvifici Doloris, no. 25
 

D28guy

New Member
""With equal truth may it be also affirmed that, by the will of God, Mary is the intermediary through whom is distributed unto us this immense treasure of mercies gathered by God, for mercy and truth were created by Jesus Christ, thus as no man goeth to the Father but by the Son, so no man goeth to Christ but by His Mother...."
Unimaginably hidious idolatry and heresy.

May God have mercy.

Mike
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
When I speak of worshipping at Mary's altars - I only mean the following


Some of our Catholic brethren have argued the point by saying "you never find us worshipping Mary".

For in support of that you will NEVER find anything like the Following praise and worship to God given to Mary.

For example see what “we do NOT find” among our Catholic sources…

WORSHIP at Mary’s Altars

"Enraptured by the splendor of your heavenly beauty and impelled by the anxieties of the world, we cast ourselves into your arms, Oh Merciful King and also to Mary our Mother....we adore and praise the peerless richness of the sublime gifts with which God has filled you above every other mere creature, from the moment of conception until the day on which after your ascension into heaven, He crowned you King of Kings. Oh crystal fountain of
faith,
bathe our hearts with your heavenly perfume. Oh Conqueror of evil and death, inspire in us a deep horror of sin which makes the soul detestable to God and the slave of hell. Oh well-beloved of God, hear the ardent cries which rise up from every heart in this year dedicated to you. Then tenderly, Oh Father, cover our aching wound; convert the wicked, dry the tears of the afflicted and the oppressed. Comfort the poor and humble. Quench hatred,
sweeten harshness, safeguard the flower of purity and protect the Holy Church. In your name resounding harmoniously in heaven, may they recognize that all are brothers...Receive, Oh heavenly Father our humble supplications and above all, obtain for us that on that day, happy with you, we may repeat before your throne that hymn which is sung today around your altars. You are beautiful Oh God. You are Glory Oh Father. You are the joy, you are the Honor of
our people."
In this form it would appear that all this praise, prayer, honor, veneration and glory applies to Mary and would even at that small level be a gross error.

So – we sure are glad that it is NOT out there.

However - to "correct" that quote so that it IS "exactly" what we DO find the Papal authority saying -- all we have to do is remove all the references to God - and replace them with references to Mary.!!!

Here is the correct quote – this is what Pope Pius XII “DID” write

In this case we just TAKE CHRIST OUT of the incorrect quote above – so that it just references MARY ALONE!! Doing that gives us the EXACT teaching as the Pope actually taught it.

"Enraptured by the splendor of your heavenly beauty and impelled by the anxieties of the world, we cast ourselves into your arms, Oh Immaculate Mother of Jesus and our Mother....we adore and praise the peerless richness of the sublime gifts with which God has filled you above every other mere creature, from the moment of conception until the day on which after your assumption into heaven, He crowned you Queen of the Universe. Oh crystal fountain of
faith,
bathe our hearts with your heavenly perfume. Oh Conqueress of evil and death, inspire in us a deep horror of sin which makes the soul detestable to God and the slave of hell. Oh well-beloved of God, hear the ardent cries which rise up from every heart in this year dedicated to you. Then tenderly, Oh Mary, cover our aching wound; convert the wicked, dry the tears of the afflicted and the oppressed. Comfort the poor and humble. Quench hatred,
sweeten harshness, safeguard the flower of purity and protect the Holy Church. In your name resounding harmoniously in heaven, may they recognize that all are brothers...Receive, Oh sweet Mother our humble supplications and above all, obtain for us that on that day, happy with you, we may repeat before your throne that hymn which is sung today around your altars. You are beautiful Oh Mary. You are Glory Oh Mary. You are the joy, you are the Honor of
our people." - Pope Pius XII, celebration of the Marian Year in Rome, 1950
In Christ,

Bob
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
When I say that she is said to be all powerful (like God) I only mean it in the following way --

ALL POWERFUL

"Is the Blessed Virgin powerful enough to obtain the salvation of her true servants? Yes. The Blessed Virgin is powerful enough to obtain the salvation of her true servants, that is, those who from the bottom of their hearts without ceasing ask her to help them to rise from sin, to live in the light of the Gospel, and to die in the love of God."
- Short Catechism Of Mary, Cardinal Charles Journet, pg 56


In a 1985 address at the Marian shrine in Guayaquil, Ecuador, Pope John Paul II said:

"Mary goes before us and accompanies us. The silent journey that begins with her Immaculate Conception and passes through the ‘yes’ of Nazareth, which makes her the Mother of God, finds on Calvary a particularly important moment. There also, accepting and assisting at the sacrifice of her son, Mary is the dawn of Redemption....Crucified spiritually with her crucified son




(cf. Gal. 2:20), she contemplated with heroic love the death of her God, she ‘lovingly consented to the immolation of this Victim which she herself had brought forth’ (Lumen Gentium, 58)....In fact, at Calvary she united herself with the sacrifice of her Son that led to the foundation of the Church; her maternal heart shared to the very depths the will of Christ ‘to gather into one all the dispersed children of God’ (Jn. 11:52). Having suffered for the Church, Mary deserved to become the Mother of all the disciples of her Son, the Mother of their unity....In fact, Mary's role as Coredemptrix did not cease with the glorification of her Son" (Inseg VIII/1 (1985) 318-319 [ORE 876:7]).
All Powerful Mary –

"Mary is all powerful with her divine Son who grants all graces to mankind through her" - Pope Benedict XV, Fausto Appetente Die

"All power is given to Thee [Mary] in heaven and on earth that at the command of Mary all obey, even God." - Alphonsus de Liguori, Roman Catholic Cardinal and "saint", from his book The Glories of Mary

Since the Mother, then, should have the same power as the Son, rightly has Jesus, who is omnipotent, made Mary also omnipotent; The Glories of Mary. (pp 180-181)

"She is omnipotent, because by her prayers she obtains whatever SHE wills. (The Glories of Mary pp 182)

"With a still more ardent zeal for piety, religion and love, let them continue to [bvenerate, invoke and pray to the most Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of God[/b], conceived without original sin. Let them fly with utter confidence to this most sweet Mother of mercy and grace in all dangers, difficulties, needs, doubts and fears. Under her guidance, under her patronage, under her kindness and protection, nothing is to be feared; nothing is hopeless. Because,
while bearing toward us a truly motherly affection and having in her care the work of our salvation, she is solicitous about the whole human race." - Pope Pius IX, Ineffabilis Deus
In Christ,

Bob
 

Living4Him

New Member
"All power is given to Thee [Mary] in heaven and on earth that at the command of Mary all obey, even God." - Alphonsus de Liguori, Roman Catholic Cardinal and "saint", from his book The Glories of Mary
Bob,
Have you read the book in its entirity? If not, how can you make a sound judgements on snippets that you have found elsewhere?

Let us see what St. Alphonsus writes at the very beginning of his book. He dedicates it "To Jesus and Mary":

My most loving Redeemer and Lord Jesus Christ, I, Thy miserable servant . . . I know not, however, to whom I could better recommend it than to Thee, who hast her glory so much at heart. To Thee, therefore, do I dedicate and commend it . . . this Immaculate Virgin in whom Thou hast placed the hope and whom Thou hast made the refuge of all the redeemed . . .

And now I turn to thee, O my most sweet Lady and Mother Mary. Thou well knowest that, after Jesus, I have placed my entire hope of salvation in thee; for I acknowledge that everything good -- my conversion, my vocation to renounce the world and all the other graces that I have received from God -- all were given me through thy means. (p. 23)

"And now, to say all in a few words: God, to glorify the Mother of the Redeemer, has so determined and disposed that of her great charity she should intercede on behalf of all those for whom his divine Son paid and offered the superabundant price of his precious blood in which alone is our salvation, life, and resurrection."

On this doctrine, and on all that is in accordance with it, I ground my propositions . . . the plenitude of all grace which is in Christ as the Head, from which it flows, as from its source; and in Mary, as in the neck through which it flows. (p. 26)

for we know that Jesus Christ is our only Saviour, and that he alone by his merits has obtained and obtains salvation for us . . . (p. 137)


. . it is one thing to say that God cannot, and another that he will not, grant graces without the intercession of Mary. We willingly admit that God is the source of every good, and the absolute master of all graces; and that Mary is only a pure creature, who receives whatever she obtains as a pure favor from God . . . We most readily admit that Jesus Christ is the only Mediator of justice . . . and that by his merits he obtains us all graces and salvation; but we say that Mary is the mediatress of grace; and that receiving all she obtains through Jesus Christ, and because she prays and asks for it in the name of Jesus Christ . . . (pp. 156-157)

. . . when these saints and authors tell us in such terms that all graces come to us through Mary, they do not simply mean to say that we "received Jesus Christ, the source of every good, through Mary," as the before-named writer pretends; but that they assure us that God, who gave us Jesus Christ, wills that all graces that have been, that are, and will be dispensed to men to the end of the world through the merits of Christ, should be dispensed by the hands and through the intercession of Mary . . . [this is] necessary, . . . not with an absolute necessity; for the mediation of Christ alone is absolutely necessary; but with a moral necessity . . . (p. 162)

. . . Jesus now in heaven sits at the right hand of the Father . . . He has supreme dominion over all, and also over Mary . . . (p. 179)

"Be comforted, O unfortunate soul, who hast lost thy God," says St. Bernard; "thy Lord himself has provided thee with a mediator, and this is his Son Jesus, who can obtain for thee all that thou desirest. He has given thee Jesus for a mediator; and what is there that such a son cannot obtain from the Father?"

. . . If your fear arises from having offended God, know that Jesus has fastened all your sins on the cross with his own lacerated hands, and having satisfied divine justice for them by his death, he has already effaced them from your souls . . . " . . . What do you fear, O ye of little faith? . . . But if by chance," adds the saint, "thou fearest to have recourse to Jesus Christ because the majesty of God in him overawes thee -- for though he became man, he did not cease to be God -- and thou desirest another advocate with this divine mediator, go to Mary, for she will intercede for thee with the Son, who will most certainly hear her; and then he will intercede with the Father, who can deny nothing to such a son." (pp. 200-201)


Let's summarize, then, the explicit statements thus far by St. Alphonsus, teaching that God, not Mary, is the source of all salvation and grace, and that Mary is by no means, in no way, shape, or form, divine, but a mere creature, whom God uses in an extraordinary fashion:

1) "My most loving Redeemer and Lord Jesus Christ"
2) "graces that I have received from God"
3) "his precious blood in which alone is our salvation, life, and resurrection."
4) "the plenitude of all grace which is in Christ as the Head, from which it flows, as from its source"
5) "God is the source of every good, and the absolute master of all graces"
6) "Mary is only a pure creature"
7) "Mary . . . receives whatever she obtains as a pure favor from God"
8) "Jesus Christ is the only Mediator of justice"
9) "by his merits he obtains us all graces and salvation"
10) " receiving all she obtains through Jesus Christ, . . . in the name of Jesus Christ"
11) ". . . all graces that have been, that are, and will be dispensed to men . . . through the merits of Christ"
12) " the mediation of Christ alone is absolutely necessary"
13) "Jesus . . . has supreme dominion over all, and also over Mary"
14) "a mediator, . . . his Son Jesus, who can obtain for thee all that thou desirest."
15) "He has given thee Jesus for a mediator; and what is there that such a son cannot obtain from the Father?"
16) "Jesus . . . having satisfied divine justice for them [our sins] by his death, he has already effaced them from your souls"
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
"All power is given to Thee [Mary] in heaven and on earth that at the command of Mary all obey, even God." - Alphonsus de Liguori, Roman Catholic Cardinal and "saint", from his book The Glories of Mary
Originally posted by Living4Him:

Bob,
Have you read the book in its entirity? If not, how can you make a sound judgements on snippets that you have found elsewhere?
Well I have read enough to know that the book does NOT say

"Here is an example of a teaching about Mary that we would NEVER claim since it would be blasphemy.


All power is given to Thee [Mary] in heaven and on earth that at the command of Mary all obey, even God.

"

And since the quote is very correct and accurate in that regard - and the book is NOT refuting that statement ....

The quote stands.

Your point that the author ALSO considers Christ to be all-powerful and ALSO thinks that worshipping Mary as an allpowerful being is NOT really worship and is not really blapshemy - is a given.

I never argue that Catholics "claim" that their teaching is in error.

In Christ,

Bob
 
S

Sirach

Guest
Originally posted by D28guy:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />""With equal truth may it be also affirmed that, by the will of God, Mary is the intermediary through whom is distributed unto us this immense treasure of mercies gathered by God, for mercy and truth were created by Jesus Christ, thus as no man goeth to the Father but by the Son, so no man goeth to Christ but by His Mother...."
Unimaginably hidious idolatry and heresy.

May God have mercy.

Mike
</font>[/QUOTE]Mike, that is not idolatry.

All that says in simple English is that all mercies to humankind which comes from Christ, Christ came in the Flash through Mary.

Which is what any Christian believes.


It saddens me how so many people who call themselves Christian take so many things out of context to the point of falsehood.

As for me, I follow Christ and rejoice in truth... I learn about the Catholic Church from the Catholic Church, I learn about the Baptists from the Baptists, I learn about the Muslims from the Muslism, etc...

Still... hardly anyone tries to post links to back them up... except me and one or two others - and they had it out of context. Why?


Your Servant in Christ,
Sirach
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Let's summarize, then, the explicit statements thus far by St. Alphonsus, teaching that God, not Mary, is the source of all salvation and grace, and that Mary is by no means, in no way, shape, or form, divine, but a mere creature, whom God uses in an extraordinary fashion:
Indeed

Mary - we worship at your altars - how extraordinary!

Mary - you are allpowerful along with Christ - how extraordinary!

Mary you are the Queen of the UNIVERSE - how extraordinary!

Mary we PRAY TO YOU and we seek YOU for YOU are solicitous about ALL MANKIND! How extraordinary.

Mary you are sinless LIKE CHRIST - how extraordinary!

...

The list goes on.

In Christ,

Bob
 
S

Sirach

Guest
Originally posted by BobRyan:
Actually "Redemptrix" does not mean "woman WITH the redeemer" it is the female gender for Redeemer! (A very DIFFERENT thing than saying there existed a woman at the time the Redeemer was alive and working).

Co-Redemptrix WITH CHRIST means that she was REDEEMING mankind ALONG WITH Christ!
That is not what the Catholic Church says it means, seeing that they called her that, I think the Catholic Church knows what it meant better than you.

Just because you have a lack of understanding in the area of translation, doesn't mean it means what you claim.

It does not mean what you claim it to.


If it does, please show me a link from a Catholic source, if you are wrong, I know you can't and won't and will take you inability to answer as a concede so that you can keep your pride. What does the bible say about pride Bob? Think about it.


Your Servant in Christ,
Sirach
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
We "see" these gross errors IN THE RC text ITSELF and then are told by RC defenders that it is "sad" that we SEE IN THESE quotes -- "gross error" that contradicts scripture.

Well so be it - but the charge can NOT be made that these quotes are NOT coming right out of the RCC!

And I already gave the example of the SAME WORSHIP of Mary going to GOD - and what happens when we REMOVE God and put ONLY MARY into those worshippful prayers and praises - we get the EXACT quote of the RCC!

In Christ,

Bob
 
S

Sirach

Guest
Originally posted by BobRyan:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />
Let's summarize, then, the explicit statements thus far by St. Alphonsus, teaching that God, not Mary, is the source of all salvation and grace, and that Mary is by no means, in no way, shape, or form, divine, but a mere creature, whom God uses in an extraordinary fashion:
Indeed

Mary - we worship at your altars - how extraordinary!

Mary - you are allpowerful along with Christ - how extraordinary!

Mary you are the Queen of the UNIVERSE - how extraordinary!

Mary we PRAY TO YOU and we seek YOU for YOU are solicitous about ALL MANKIND! How extraordinary.

Mary you are sinless LIKE CHRIST - how extraordinary!

...

The list goes on.

In Christ,

Bob
</font>[/QUOTE]Learn what they believe the word Worship to mean...

The word "worship" has undergone a change in meaning in English. It comes from the Old English weorthscipe, which means the condition of being worthy of honor, respect, or dignity. To worship in the older, larger sense is to ascribe honor, worth, or excellence to someone, whether a sage, a magistrate, or God.

For many centuries, the term worship simply meant showing respect or honor, and an example of this usage survives in contemporary English. British subjects refer to their magistrates as "Your Worship," although Americans would say "Your Honor." This doesn’t mean that British subjects worship their magistrates as gods (in fact, they may even despise a particular magistrate they are addressing). It means they are giving them the honor appropriate to their office, not the honor appropriate to God.

Outside of this example, however, the English term "worship" has been narrowed in scope to indicate only that supreme form of honor, reverence, and respect that is due to God. This change in usage is quite recent. In fact, one can still find books that use "worship" in the older, broader sense. This can lead to a significant degree of confusion, when people who are familiar only with the use of words in their own day and their own circles encounter material written in other times and other places.

In Scripture, the term "worship" was similarly broad in meaning, but in the early Christian centuries, theologians began to differentiate between different types of honor in order to make more clear which is due to God and which is not.

As the terminology of Christian theology developed, the Greek term latria came to be used to refer to the honor that is due to God alone, and the term dulia came to refer to the honor that is due to human beings, especially those who lived and died in God’s friendship—in other words, the saints. Scripture indicates that honor is due to these individuals (Matt. 10:41b). A special term was coined to refer to the special honor given to the Virgin Mary, who bore Jesus—God in the flesh—in her womb. This term, hyperdulia (huper [more than]+ dulia = "beyond dulia"), indicates that the honor due to her as Christ’s own Mother is more than the dulia given to other saints. It is greater in degree, but still of the same kind. However, since Mary is a finite creature, the honor she is due is fundamentally different in kind from the latria owed to the infinite Creator.

All of these terms—latria, dulia, hyperdulia—used to be lumped under the one English word "worship." Sometimes when one reads old books discussing the subject of how particular persons are to be honored, they will qualify the word "worship" by referring to "the worship of latria" or "the worship of dulia." To contemporaries and to those not familiar with the history of these terms, however, this is too confusing.

Another attempt to make clear the difference between the honor due to God and that due to humans has been to use the words adore and adoration to describe the total, consuming reverence due to God and the terms venerate, veneration, and honor to refer to the respect due humans. Thus, Catholics sometimes say, "We adore God but we honor his saints."

Unfortunately, many non-Catholics have been so schooled in hostility toward the Church that they appear unable or unwilling to recognize these distinctions. They confidently (often arrogantly) assert that Catholics "worship" Mary and the saints, and, in so doing, commit idolatry. This is patently false, of course, but the education in anti-Catholic prejudice is so strong that one must patiently explain that Catholics do not worship anyone but God—at least given the contemporary use of the term. The Church is very strict about the fact that latria, adoration—what contemporary English speakers call "worship"—is to be given only to God.

Though one should know it from one’s own background, it often may be best to simply point out that Catholics do not worship anyone but God and omit discussing the history of the term. Many non-Catholics might be more perplexed than enlightened by hearing the history of the word. Familiar only with their group’s use of the term "worship," they may misperceive a history lesson as rationalization and end up even more adamant in their declarations that the term is applicable only to God. They may even go further. Wanting to attack the veneration of the saints, they may declare that only God should be honored.

Both of these declarations are in direct contradiction to the language and precepts of the Bible. The term "worship" was used in the same way in the Bible that it used to be used in English. It could cover both the adoration given to God alone and the honor that is to be shown to certain human beings. In Hebrew, the term for worship is shakhah. It is appropriately used for humans in a large number of passages.

For example, in Genesis 37:7–9 Joseph relates two dreams that God gave him concerning how his family would honor him in coming years. Translated literally the passage states: "‘ehold, we were binding sheaves in the field, and lo, my sheaf arose and stood upright; and behold, your sheaves gathered round it, and worshiped [shakhah] my sheaf.’ . . . Then he dreamed another dream, and told it to his brothers, and said, ‘Behold, I have dreamed another dream; and behold, the sun, the moon, and eleven stars were worshiping [shakhah] me.’"

In Genesis 49:2-27, Jacob pronounced a prophetic blessing on his sons, and concerning Judah he stated: "Judah, your brothers shall praise you; your hand shall be on the neck of your enemies; your father’s sons shall worship [shakhah] you (49:8)." And in Exodus 18:7, Moses honored his father-in-law, Jethro: "Moses went out to meet his father-in-law, and worshiped [shakhah] him and kissed him; and they asked each other of their welfare, and went into the tent."

Yet none of these passages were discussing the worship of adoration, the kind of worship given to God.


FOUND AT: http://www.catholic.com/library/Saint_Worship.asp
The Truth sets us free, Don't be a slave to ignorant hate and bigotry... Know and understand so that you can know how to explain your views in a more Christian way.


God Bless,
Sirach
 
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