about the Catholic Church

[BobRyan]

quote:
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Originally posted by BobRyan:
Actually "Redemptrix" does not mean "woman WITH the redeemer" it is the female gender for Redeemer! (A very DIFFERENT thing than saying there existed a woman at the time the Redeemer was alive and working).

Co-Redemptrix WITH CHRIST means that she was REDEEMING mankind ALONG WITH Christ!
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CoRedemptrix -

"With equal truth may it be also affirmed that, by the will of God, Mary is the intermediary through whom is distributed unto us this immense treasure of mercies gathered by God, for mercy and truth were created by Jesus Christ, thus as no man goeth to the Father but by the Son, so no man goeth to Christ but by His Mother....How grateful and magnificent a spectacle to see in the cities, and towns, and villages, on land and sea—wherever the Catholic
faith has penetrated—many hundreds of thousands of pious people uniting their praises and prayers with one voice and heart at every moment of the day, saluting Mary, invoking Mary, hoping everything through Mary." - Pope Leo XIII, Octobri Mense

"O Virgin most holy, none abounds in the knowledge of God except through thee; none, O Mother of God, obtains salvation except through thee, none receives a gift from the throne of mercy except through thee." - Pope Leo XIII, Adiutricem Populi

"Mary suffered and, as it were, nearly died with her suffering Son; for the salvation of mankind she renounced her mother's rights and, as far as it depended on her, offered her Son to placate divine justice; so we may well say that she with Christ redeemed mankind." - Pope Benedict XV, Inter Sodalicia

"Mary's suffering [at Calvary], beside the suffering of Jesus, reached an intensity which can hardly be imagined from a human point of view but which was mysteriously and supernaturally fruitful for the Redemption of the world." - Pope John Paul II, Salvifici Doloris, no. 25

 

[BobRyan]

Bob said --

Co-Redemptrix WITH CHRIST means that she was REDEEMING mankind ALONG WITH Christ!
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The RCC said --

"Is the Blessed Virgin powerful enough to obtain the salvation of her true servants?

Yes. The Blessed Virgin is powerful enough to obtain the salvation of her true servants, that is, those who from the bottom of their hearts without ceasing ask her to help them to rise from sin, to live in the light of the Gospel, and to die in the love of God."
- Short Catechism Of Mary, Cardinal Charles Journet, pg 56


In a 1985 address at the Marian shrine in Guayaquil, Ecuador, Pope John Paul II said:

"Mary goes before us and accompanies us. The silent journey that begins with her Immaculate Conception and passes through the ‘yes’ of Nazareth, which makes her the Mother of God, finds on Calvary a particularly important moment. There also, accepting and assisting at the sacrifice of her son, Mary is the dawn of Redemption....Crucified spiritually with her crucified son




(cf. Gal. 2:20), she contemplated with heroic love the death of her God, she ‘lovingly consented to the immolation of this Victim which she herself had brought forth’ (Lumen Gentium, 58)....In fact, at Calvary she united herself with the sacrifice of her Son that led to the foundation of the Church; her maternal heart shared to the very depths the will of Christ ‘to gather into one all the dispersed children of God’ (Jn. 11:52).

Having suffered for the Church, Mary deserved to become the Mother of all the disciples of her Son, the Mother of their unity....In fact, Mary's role as Coredemptrix did not cease with the glorification of her Son" (Inseg VIII/1 (1985) 318-319 [ORE 876:7]).

 

[BobRyan]

As for WHAT IS true worship - I already gave this example --

For example see this example of Worship to GOD the Son who was incarnate on earth - an example that “we do NOT find” among our Catholic sources in this exact form…

"Enraptured by the splendor of your heavenly beauty and impelled by the anxieties of the world, we cast ourselves into your arms, Oh Merciful King and also to Mary our Mother....we adore and praise the peerless richness of the sublime gifts with which God has filled you above every other mere creature, from the moment of conception until the day on which after your ascension into heaven, He crowned you King of Kings. Oh crystal fountain of
faith, bathe our hearts with your heavenly perfume. Oh Conqueror of evil and death, inspire in us a deep horror of sin which makes the soul detestable to God and the slave of hell. Oh well-beloved of God, hear the ardent cries which rise up from every heart in this year dedicated to you. Then tenderly, Oh Father, cover our aching wound; convert the wicked, dry the tears of the afflicted and the oppressed. Comfort the poor and humble. Quench hatred,
sweeten harshness, safeguard the flower of purity and protect the Holy Church. In your name resounding harmoniously in heaven, may they recognize that all are brothers...Receive, Oh heavenly Father our humble supplications and above all, obtain for us that on that day, happy with you, we may repeat before your throne that hymn which is sung today around your altars. You are beautiful Oh God. You are Glory Oh Father. You are the joy, you are the Honor of
our people."

Read the text CLOSELY - and answer for yourself IF the praise and adoration GIVEN TO GOD in this example is REALLY worship!

If you respond "NO that would not REALLY be worship to God - but rather this would just be saying nice things about God the Son - but not actually what you would say to God the Son when worshipping Him" -- then "maybe" the RCC has a leg to stand on.

So read it - show it.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Living4Him]

All power is given to Thee [Mary] in heaven and on earth that at the command of Mary all obey, even God.

Butchering of citations: the first sentence ends after "earth," the words "so that" are added and not in St. Alphonsus' text, then one has to skip over about half a page to get to the next clause. As always, one must examine the context of such an extraordinary statement to determine exactly what the author is trying to communicate.

". . . although Mary, now in heaven, can no longer command her Son, nevertheless her prayers are always the prayers of a Mother, and consequently most powerful to obtain whatever she asks . . . "For thy protection is omnipotent, O Mary," says Cosmas of Jerusalem . . . Richard of St. Laurence; . . . " . . . a mother is made omnipotent by an omnipotent son." . . . Since the Mother, then, should have the same power as the Son, rightly has Jesus, who is omnipotent, made Mary also omnipotent; though, of course, it is always true that where the Son is omnipotent by nature, the Mother is only so by grace . . . Mary, then, is called omnipotent in the sense in which it can be understood of a creature who is incapable of a divine attribute. She is omnipotent, because by her prayers she obtains whatever she wills." (pp. 180-182)

Nor is the notion of creatures being granted a measure, great or small, of God's "power" foreign to the biblical outlook:

. . . that the power of Christ may rest upon me. (1 Corinthians 12:9)

. . . we shall live with him by the power of God. (1 Corinthians 13:4)

. . . by the power of the Holy Spirit you may abound in hope. (Romans 15:13)

that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God. (1 Corinthians 2:5)

. . . my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus. (1 Corinthians 5:4)

Now to him who by the power at work within us is able to do far more abundantly than all that we ask or think, (Ephesians 3:20)

Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of his might. (Ephesians 6:10; cf. Ps 68:35)

who by God's power are guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. (1 Peter 1:5)

He who conquers and who keeps my works until the end, I will give him power over the nations. (Revelation 2:26)

 

[BobRyan]

Since the Mother, then, should have the same power as the Son, rightly has Jesus, who is omnipotent, made Mary also omnipotent

I am sorry my RC friends - no matter how you slice or dish it up or put lipstick on it - that is "just wrong"!!

And The Bible points out NO SUCH case for Mary!

In fAct the Bible argues that GOD ALONE is omnipotent!!

Do you really think that with enough garnish you can get a non-RC group to swallow that statement you quote?

Just admit it - that statement DOES exist it IS in your source documents and "yes" we DO object!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Sirach]

nm

 

[BobRyan]

quote:
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All power is given to Thee [Mary] in heaven and on earth that at the command of Mary all obey, even God.
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L4H
Butchering of citations: the first sentence ends after "earth," the words "so that" are added and not in St. Alphonsus' text, then one has to skip over about half a page to get to the next clause. As always, one must examine the context of such an extraordinary statement to determine exactly what the author is trying to communicate.

What quote are you talking about? The one you gave has no "next clause".

Here is the quote I gave --

"All power is given to Thee [Mary] in heaven and on earth that at the command of Mary all obey, even God." - Alphonsus de Liguori, Roman Catholic Cardinal and "saint", from his book The Glories of Mary

I don't have a "so that" in there.

If you have some other version - please give the quote.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Living4Him]

Butchering of citations: the first sentence ends after "earth," the words "so that" are added and not in St. Alphonsus' text, then one has to skip over about half a page to get to the next clause. As always, one must examine the context of such an extraordinary statement to determine exactly what the author is trying to communicate.

". . . although Mary, now in heaven, can no longer command her Son, nevertheless her prayers are always the prayers of a Mother, and consequently most powerful to obtain whatever she asks . . . "For thy protection is omnipotent, O Mary," says Cosmas of Jerusalem . . . Richard of St. Laurence; . . . " . . . a mother is made omnipotent by an omnipotent son." . . . Since the Mother, then, should have the same power as the Son, rightly has Jesus, who is omnipotent, made Mary also omnipotent; though, of course, it is always true that where the Son is omnipotent by nature, the Mother is only so by grace . . . Mary, then, is called omnipotent in the sense in which it can be understood of a creature who is incapable of a divine attribute. She is omnipotent, because by her prayers she obtains whatever she wills." (pp. 180-182)

Nor is the notion of creatures being granted a measure, great or small, of God's "power" foreign to the biblical outlook:

. . . that the power of Christ may rest upon me. (1 Corinthians 12:9)

. . . we shall live with him by the power of God. (1 Corinthians 13:4)

. . . by the power of the Holy Spirit you may abound in hope. (Romans 15:13)

that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God. (1 Corinthians 2:5)

. . . my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus. (1 Corinthians 5:4)

Now to him who by the power at work within us is able to do far more abundantly than all that we ask or think, (Ephesians 3:20)

Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of his might. (Ephesians 6:10; cf. Ps 68:35)

who by God's power are guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. (1 Peter 1:5)

He who conquers and who keeps my works until the end, I will give him power over the nations. (Revelation 2:26

I apologize, this is not what I intended to post. This is what happens when I try to cook dinner, post on the web,look at other sources, have the kids running around like they lost their minds, and the dog nipping my ankle to go out. I tried to delete this but it said that time ran out.

I will have to post what I intended to earlier.

 

[D28guy]

daktim,

I was a product of what Rome teaches, as are most of my family members and friends from back in Chicago. When I speak to them of Christ and the new birth, they stubbornly cling, in fear, to Rome and her teachings. I see in them what I once was. My own mother admitted to me that she could see the point I was trying to make about repentance and faith, but, in her own words, "I have been taught this since I was a child. It's been beaten into my head, and I can't believe any different." Before I was saved, I had switched my allegiance from the Catholic church to the Baptist church. God had to bring me to the place of rejecting everything I was clinging to, stop trusting in myself, acknowledge that I was a sinner deserving hell, and trust the Lord Jesus Christ as my only hope of salvation. Now I'm justified, redeemed, cleansed by the blood, a new creature in Christ, a joint-heir with Christ, and my name is written in the Lamb's book of life in heaven.

And that is pretty much my situation as well. Almost word for word. And I have heard multitudes upon multitudes of testimonies just like that. Not only regarding myself, but the family full of Catholics whom I am a part of.

It is such a terribly sad thing to see what the Catholic Church does to her "victims", and how tenaciously they cling to that which is not working in the lives.

Very sadly,

Mike

 

[Sirach]

Something to think about for those who attack the Catholic Church unjustly...

If you think they're hellbound because you believe that they have the wrong interpretation of Scripture and misrepresent Christ, I want you to consider the following verses, very carefully...

I first ask you to think about if you are ever wrong about your interpretation of the Scriptures.

If you think they're hellbound because you believe they misrepresent Christ, you cast judgement on yourselves UNLESS you are ALWAYS right about Scripture.

Matt 7:1
"Stop judging, that you may not be judged.
2 For as you judge, so will you be judged, and the measure with which you measure will be measured out to you .
3 Why do you notice the splinter in your brother's eye, but do not perceive the wooden beam in your own eye?


Matt 7:20
So by their fruits you will know them.
21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.
22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?'
23 Then I will declare to them solemnly, 'I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers. '
24 "Everyone who listens to these words of mine and acts on them will be like a wise man who built his house on rock.


Is it the will of the Father for YOU to cast judgement on others? If you think Catholics are hellbound for misrepresenting Christ because of their interpretation of the very Scriptures that you also read; then you cast yourself with the same measure that you have cast to them.


Shouldn't we first seek to truly understand Catholic teachings before casting judgement on it? With so many people that are baptist that can't agree on the Catholic Church teachings, it shows that we all need to study it more from Catholic sources, so to understand it, then and only then can we help Catholics who do not have Christ.

Also, you don't win people with hate. You win people with Love. One soul lost to satan is horrible. Do you want to be the one to push someone closer to satan?! Show them hate, and you will. Show them love, understanding and compassion, and you can win them over to Christ.

Are we a brood of vipers or a group of Christians. If we are Christians, then we need to act like it and love our neighbor... EVERYONE is our neighbor. It seems some people here remind me of the pharisees casting their judgments on things that they don't understand and missing the point to the teachings of God.

Treat others the way you want to be treated. If Catholics were wrong about Baptist teachings, wouldn't you want them to go to a Baptist source and learn what the Baptists really teach and believe - even if the Catholics thought they were right, they should check from a Baptist source.

If we can't follow the Golden Rule, then we have no right to call ourselves Christians because we would not be living in Christ's Way.

Your Servant in Christ,
Sirach

 

[D28guy]

Sirach,

Something to think about for those who attack the Catholic Church unjustly...

If you think they're hellbound because you believe that they have the wrong interpretation of Scripture and misrepresent Christ, I want you to consider the following verses, very carefully...

I first ask you to think about if you are ever wrong about your interpretation of the Scriptures.

If you think they're hellbound because you believe they misrepresent Christ, you cast judgement on yourselves UNLESS you are ALWAYS right about Scripture.

There are about a million ways that people can have different convictions regarding periferal, or non-foundational areas in the scriptures. And in all those times our instructions from God are...

"Let your brother be fully convinced in his own mind...who are you to judge your brother?" (Romans 14)

Its perfectly OK to contend for the truth in those areas, and we are admonished to do that by God. But is to be done in love, as we are all brothers and sisters who disagree on periferal areas.

It is only when it comes to preaching a different gospel and teaching heresy in areas that promote idolatry and the like that we are to be much more straightforward and critical.

And even then, it is out of love that we try to share the truth with the idolaters or those who promote the false gospel.(or are believing the false gospel)

The Catholic Church teaches a false gospel and promotes idolatry. And we love Catholics so much that we would rather try to help them than turn a blind eye and just casually say "Well, they'll get what they deserve".

Is that what you would want?

Paul said..."have I become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?"

I thank God with every fiber of my being for people who told me the truth about catholicism and shared the truth of God...and the true saving gospel...with me.

If it werent for God sending those people to me I would still be on the road to hell right now, instead of having a placed reserved for me in heaven.

God bless,

Mike

 

[Sirach]

Mike,

God Bless, but nothing that I have found in my studies of the Catholic Church teachings promotes idolatry.

If there is THEN SHOW ME WITH A LINK.

Can it be any more simple than that to prove yourself right?


Your Servant in Christ,
Sirach

 

[DHK]

There is your problem Sirach. You will not look at things from a Biblical point of view. When I grew up as a Catholic I learned the Ten Commandments, but not the Ten Commandments that were in the Bible. The second commandment, "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness thereof...and thou shalt not bow down unto them," was deleted. It was not found in the Catechical books of my generation. Instead they took the last command, "Thou shalt not covet," and split it into two: "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife," and "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's goods." Of course coveting is coveting, not matter what the object of your coveting is. This was just a ploy to avoid the direct violation of the Second Commandment--the commandment that forbids idolatry.
DHK

 

[D28guy]

Sirach,

I dont understand this fixation you have with being given a "link". You say it over and over again.

I literally post the Council of Trent edicts and cursings on this thread, and I get it right off of a Catholic site devoted to having all of that available.

I post it and you ignore what the Council of Trent says and then say "give me a link".

So...you want me to put up a post with nothing in it but...

Link...click here.

...with that link leading to the very same Council of Trent cursings in it that I have been posting?

(((What difference does it make??!!)))

Either way, you are getting the same information from the same horses mouth!

All I'm doing is making it easier for you and everyone else to read it. Not clicking a link is easier that clicking a link. And everyone else is doing the same thing. Quoting from the Catechism, quoting fron the Council of Trent, quoting from the Catholic Encyclopedia, etc etc etc.

I am completly mystified.

Mike

 

[Melanie]

In my Catechism I have this:

The Catholic enumeration of the commandments differs from the English (and Calvinist) Protestant enumeration. The Catholic division was in use in England until the Protestant revolt; it is used still by most Lutheran churches.

The Catholic system is based on the Hebrew text and principally on the enumeration made by St. Augustine; it was adopted by the Council of Trent. By it the first commandment contains everything relating to false worship and false gods. The tenfold division is safeguarded by dividing the last precept regarding desire into one relating to sins of the flesh, and another referring to sins against property.

The English Protestant enumeration is based on Origen and others. By it the worship of graven images is numbered as the second commandment, and the tenth commandment is grouped together rather than the other way about.

In my Douay- Rheims Bible the verses 3-6 and verse 17 cover this concern.

So I guess it depends on your version of the Bible because the concerns are all covered in mine.

 

[mioque]

Considering that the Tora doesn't have punctuation, or even breaks between words, the exact division of the 10 commandments is debatable. The Jewish view of how to carve up the 10 commandements differs from both versions mentioned earlier.

 

[Bro. James]

Shall we go to the "Synagogue of Satan" as well?--maybe Lucifer has some "spiritual truth" which most of us have missed.

"Come out from among them, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing..."

As long as there is no agreed upon DIVINE STANDARD on which to refer our discussions, how can we decide from the writings of depraved mankind?

This is where "sola scriptura" becomes such a pivotal doctrine in the understanding of the scripture--but not as pivotal as the fact that one must be "born again" to be able to understand the scriptures for they are "spiritually discerned".

"Marvel not, you must be born from above...". See St. John Chapter 3,verses 1-12.

Selah,

Bro. James

 

[Sirach]

DHK,

The Council of Trent DOES NOT curse.

The way the Catholic Church uses the term "Anathema", it means an ecclesiastical ban. In other words if someone believes something that goes against one of the Catholic Church's "anathema's", that person should not participate in what the Catholic Church calls the Sacraments.

Your snippets of the Council of Trent are out of context and the Councils do not always fully explain everything... that is was the Catechism is for.

All of the documents from the Council of Trent can be found here:
http://www.catholic-pages.com/dir/trent.asp

Currently the site is not coming up for me, but this site has been paramount in helping me understand what and why the Catholic Church teaches what it does.

Your Servant in Christ,
Sirach

 

[BobRyan]

Since Mioque regards the RCC to have an almost god-like stature when it comes to history ... here is what EWTN says about the enumeration of the Ten Commandments.

The enumeration of the commandants (which is number one, which is two etc.) are traditional and neither contained in the texts nor obvious.

The Catholic Church has traditionally used the Deuteronomy account and followed the division of the text given in the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Scriptures made by second century BC Jews in Egypt and used by the early Church as its Old Testament. The Anglican Church and the Lutheran Church also use this account.

The other Reformation churches use the Exodus listing, and adopted the Jewish enumeration of the Hebrew text.

http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/ten_commandments.htm

"Notice" that even the RCC admits that this is the "Jewish Enumeration".

Here is the "real deal" historically "showing" why EVEN the RCC has to admit that the Protestant numbering is faithful to the Hebrew/Jewish rendering and the RCC numbering is not.

http://www.bible-researcher.com/decalogue.html

Notice that in the Jewish options the clear numbering of 2,3,4,..10 does not change at all!!

In the two Jewish options there is only a question of how much of the the introduction to include in commandment 1.

How "instructive" that the numbering was so settled and agreed upon by the time of the Apostles!!

How "informative" that Augustine saw a need to "change that".

In Christ,

Bob

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Bro. James]

"anathema=ecclesiastical ban"(excommunication)

What is wrong with the literal primary meaning of the word: without God.

Most of the defense of false doctrine is based on remote to non-existant definitions of words. We are dealing with the same words--but with completely different meanings in practice. The Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons etal, do the same thing. This is typical when trying to harmonize the traditions of men with the doctrines of God--they just do not harmonize.

God is not the author of confusion.

Selah,

Bro. James