And sola Scriptura produces that confusion...as has been demonstrated time and again on this Board
Yours in Christ
Matt
Yours in Christ
Matt
-
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I was raised a Roman Catholic in the heart of Chicago. I went to Catholic schools from the first grade throught high school. I was an altar boy for all the years I was eligible to be one. Here's what I learned in those formative years.
I was taught that the Catholic church was the only way of salvation, and that the seven sacraments were all necessary for salvation unless you weren't a priest, therefore excluding holy orders. I was taught that by giving money to the Purgatorial Society, I could buy people out of Purgatory and into heaven. I was taught that I could do the same by paying money to have a mass said in honor of a dearly departed loved one. I was taught that praying to "saints" was a good thing, and certainly praying before images of them was totally acceptable. I was taught that the priests were the mediators by which forgiveness for sins was obtained, and that I'd better not attend mass with any unconfessed sins on my heart, or that itself was a mortal sin. I was taught that by sprinkling "holy water" on my dead relatives and friends at their wakes, I was giving them a better shot at getting into heaven. I was taught that repeating thoughtless, repetitious prayers was pleasing to God. I was taught that the eucharist was the actual body of Christ, and the alcoholic wine was His actual blood, and that by ingesting them during communion, I was "receiving Christ". I was taught that you had to be a Catholic in order to go to heaven. If you were anything else, Baptist, Buddhist, or whatever, you were going to hell. I was taught that Mary was to be prayed to and worshipped as God's mother. When I was first witnessed to by a saved friend and told that Christ was the only way of salvation by grace through faith in the finished work at Calvary, I asked a Catholic priest about this, because I was confused. Surely this went against the teachings of my childhood. His answer was, "Your friend is well-meaning but deceived. There is no salvation apart from the Catholic church. Yes, Jesus died for our sins, but you must also follow the Catholic church and her teachings and traditions. Just keep the ten commandments and be faithful to your upbringing. You'll be just fine. By the way, it is dangerous to read the Bible for yourself. Only the Catholic church can interpret it properly. I would advise against reading it any further." Does anybody else see any of this that is contrary to Scripture besides me?
For the first twenty years of my life, I claimed to be nothing but a Roman Catholic, and I was proud of it. And for all of those years of faithfully attending mass, I can not for the life of me remember ONE homily by any priest from any Catholic church I attended. That's at least thirteen years of masses that I should have had the ability to remember, often daily because of being an altar boy. You would think that in all of those years something would have spoken to my heart. Never happened. Not one portion of Scripture can be remembered, only teachings of church traditions. Was it because every priest and deacon I ever spoke to was a crackpot, and every Catholic church I attended was on the fringe and not really teaching Catholic theology? Not likely, because I attended several different Catholic churches in Illinois, Indiana, Wisconsin, Minnesota, Florida, Texas, and North Dakota. It couldn't be because I was too young to remember, because I can distinctly remember going to church faithfully. I remember the religion classes in school which emphasised works for salvation. Most of all, I remember having no sense of peace that heaven was my eternal home.
My conclusion: The Catholic church teaches a way of salvation that is contrary to Scripture.
I do not believe that every Catholic is going to hell merely because they are Catholic in name. I know some Catholics with very clear testimonies of Salvation. By the same token, I do not believe every Baptist is going to heaven merely because they call themselves Baptist. It all comes down to a person's relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ.
Hope I didn't bore you with the facts of my upbringing!
In Christ,
Tim
I was taught that the Catholic church was the only way of salvation, and that the seven sacraments were all necessary for salvation unless you weren't a priest, therefore excluding holy orders. I was taught that by giving money to the Purgatorial Society, I could buy people out of Purgatory and into heaven. I was taught that I could do the same by paying money to have a mass said in honor of a dearly departed loved one. I was taught that praying to "saints" was a good thing, and certainly praying before images of them was totally acceptable. I was taught that the priests were the mediators by which forgiveness for sins was obtained, and that I'd better not attend mass with any unconfessed sins on my heart, or that itself was a mortal sin. I was taught that by sprinkling "holy water" on my dead relatives and friends at their wakes, I was giving them a better shot at getting into heaven. I was taught that repeating thoughtless, repetitious prayers was pleasing to God. I was taught that the eucharist was the actual body of Christ, and the alcoholic wine was His actual blood, and that by ingesting them during communion, I was "receiving Christ". I was taught that you had to be a Catholic in order to go to heaven. If you were anything else, Baptist, Buddhist, or whatever, you were going to hell. I was taught that Mary was to be prayed to and worshipped as God's mother. When I was first witnessed to by a saved friend and told that Christ was the only way of salvation by grace through faith in the finished work at Calvary, I asked a Catholic priest about this, because I was confused. Surely this went against the teachings of my childhood. His answer was, "Your friend is well-meaning but deceived. There is no salvation apart from the Catholic church. Yes, Jesus died for our sins, but you must also follow the Catholic church and her teachings and traditions. Just keep the ten commandments and be faithful to your upbringing. You'll be just fine. By the way, it is dangerous to read the Bible for yourself. Only the Catholic church can interpret it properly. I would advise against reading it any further." Does anybody else see any of this that is contrary to Scripture besides me?
For the first twenty years of my life, I claimed to be nothing but a Roman Catholic, and I was proud of it. And for all of those years of faithfully attending mass, I can not for the life of me remember ONE homily by any priest from any Catholic church I attended. That's at least thirteen years of masses that I should have had the ability to remember, often daily because of being an altar boy. You would think that in all of those years something would have spoken to my heart. Never happened. Not one portion of Scripture can be remembered, only teachings of church traditions. Was it because every priest and deacon I ever spoke to was a crackpot, and every Catholic church I attended was on the fringe and not really teaching Catholic theology? Not likely, because I attended several different Catholic churches in Illinois, Indiana, Wisconsin, Minnesota, Florida, Texas, and North Dakota. It couldn't be because I was too young to remember, because I can distinctly remember going to church faithfully. I remember the religion classes in school which emphasised works for salvation. Most of all, I remember having no sense of peace that heaven was my eternal home.
My conclusion: The Catholic church teaches a way of salvation that is contrary to Scripture.
I do not believe that every Catholic is going to hell merely because they are Catholic in name. I know some Catholics with very clear testimonies of Salvation. By the same token, I do not believe every Baptist is going to heaven merely because they call themselves Baptist. It all comes down to a person's relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ.
Hope I didn't bore you with the facts of my upbringing!
In Christ,
Tim
S
Sirach
Guest
Tim,
Please show me that teaching in the Catechism. You might have been at a bad parish.
It says alot that you can't remember the homilies. Sometimes people just go through the motions and miss what's going on in every church.
I posted part of what the Catholic Church teaches on salvation, and gave a link to the Catechism.
From the Catholic Churches point of view it is not contrary to Scripture.
If the Catholic Church is the group sent by Christ, then there is no salvation for those who them. But, the Catholic Church ALSO teaches that if people think that they are following the ones sent by Christ, that there is a chance at salvation because they are "Catholic by desire".
Tim,
I'm speaking of the official teachings of the Catholic Church, not of peoples personal exepriances of particular parishes or misunderstandings.
The Catholic Church uses the same Scriptures that Christ and the Apostles used, and that the Apostles wrote.
God Bless, Your Servant in Christ,
Sirach
Please show me that teaching in the Catechism. You might have been at a bad parish.
It says alot that you can't remember the homilies. Sometimes people just go through the motions and miss what's going on in every church.
I posted part of what the Catholic Church teaches on salvation, and gave a link to the Catechism.
From the Catholic Churches point of view it is not contrary to Scripture.
If the Catholic Church is the group sent by Christ, then there is no salvation for those who them. But, the Catholic Church ALSO teaches that if people think that they are following the ones sent by Christ, that there is a chance at salvation because they are "Catholic by desire".
Tim,
I'm speaking of the official teachings of the Catholic Church, not of peoples personal exepriances of particular parishes or misunderstandings.
The Catholic Church uses the same Scriptures that Christ and the Apostles used, and that the Apostles wrote.
God Bless, Your Servant in Christ,
Sirach
Welcome Daktim,
You are another witness that salvation is not in church membership.
I have a similar background in the spiritual emptiness of Catholicism--some of the details are different.
I was born to the consumation of the marriage of a nominal Catholic and a nominal Baptist. WWII was raging. My father was serving in the Pacific. The delivery was breached--mother and baby were in danger. Baby was given low chances of surviving. Extreme Unction was discussed/argued between the mothers in law--one a devout Catholic, the other a devout Baptist.
No one will tell me who won that battle. Apparently, I survived--60 years old this May. Mom survives too.
Next came the battle over baptism. "Babies must be baptized to save their souls"--"no they are not lost" was the debate.
In the meantime the marriage split and was later annulled--I guess that makes me illegitimate. I am living proof of a marriage having been consumated somewhere. I do have a birth certificate to that effect.
If I was "born Catholic" or not, I am not sure.
I do remember going to Catholic school grades 1,2,4. I remember the nuns enforcing discipline with yardsticks to the hands and forearms. We learned a lot--some I have had to erase--false teachings mostly. I remember going to Mass and wondering about all the Latin words. Then I took First Communion--had not the foggiest idea as to what it meant--just did it.
Went to public school from 5th grade on through high school. Went to catechism class on Saturday. My brain was throughly washed--I was becoming a Catholic Zombie. Then we joined the Methodists. I liked it--especially the girls.
Do not remember hearing about being "born again"--from the Catholics or the Methodists. We joined the "unchurched" when I was fifteen.
I was twenty three when The Lord saved my soul, not because I had any righteousness, but because He loves me. Salvation is of the Lord--it has nothing to do with church membership. One could join every church on the globe and still go to hell.
Selah,
Bro. James
You are another witness that salvation is not in church membership.
I have a similar background in the spiritual emptiness of Catholicism--some of the details are different.
I was born to the consumation of the marriage of a nominal Catholic and a nominal Baptist. WWII was raging. My father was serving in the Pacific. The delivery was breached--mother and baby were in danger. Baby was given low chances of surviving. Extreme Unction was discussed/argued between the mothers in law--one a devout Catholic, the other a devout Baptist.
No one will tell me who won that battle. Apparently, I survived--60 years old this May. Mom survives too.
Next came the battle over baptism. "Babies must be baptized to save their souls"--"no they are not lost" was the debate.
In the meantime the marriage split and was later annulled--I guess that makes me illegitimate. I am living proof of a marriage having been consumated somewhere. I do have a birth certificate to that effect.
If I was "born Catholic" or not, I am not sure.
I do remember going to Catholic school grades 1,2,4. I remember the nuns enforcing discipline with yardsticks to the hands and forearms. We learned a lot--some I have had to erase--false teachings mostly. I remember going to Mass and wondering about all the Latin words. Then I took First Communion--had not the foggiest idea as to what it meant--just did it.
Went to public school from 5th grade on through high school. Went to catechism class on Saturday. My brain was throughly washed--I was becoming a Catholic Zombie. Then we joined the Methodists. I liked it--especially the girls.
Do not remember hearing about being "born again"--from the Catholics or the Methodists. We joined the "unchurched" when I was fifteen.
I was twenty three when The Lord saved my soul, not because I had any righteousness, but because He loves me. Salvation is of the Lord--it has nothing to do with church membership. One could join every church on the globe and still go to hell.
Selah,
Bro. James
S
Sirach
Guest
I do not believe that. Catholics DO NOT worship Mary. I'm sorry to say you either were at a bad parish or had major misunderstandings of your own faith at the time.
Mary is the Mother of Christ, Christ is God, Christ was in her womb, Mary gave birth to Christ, therefore Mary is the Mother of God.
The Catholics believe that the saints in Heaven can pray for us, and they use Rev. 5:8 that backs that up.
God Bless,
Sirach
Question to Sirach--
Have you been "born again"? Please explain.
Selah,
Bro. James
Have you been "born again"? Please explain.
Selah,
Bro. James
S
Sirach
Guest
I don't think so. There are many holes in Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, but as for Christian Science, I haven't studied them yet. I've been studying Jehovah's and Mormons and there are just too many holes that don't match up, that they just don't have answers too.
Your Servant in Christ,
Sirach
Debby in Philly
Active Member
daktim and Bro. James, your testimonies warmed my heart!
Repeat: Sirach--Have you been born again? Explain--from the Duay-Confraternity if you like--Gospel of John, Ch. 3.
Selah,
Bro. James
Selah,
Bro. James
S
Sirach
Guest
The subject is not of my being born again. The subject is what the Catholic Church teaches.
You could eaisly prove me wrong about what the Catholic Church teaches with links to the Catechism. Why do you wish to change the subject?
Because I'm correct in what the Catholic Church teaches? I think so. Christians rejoice in the truth James. Are you Christian?
God Bless,
Sirach
The above conclusions are derived from the logic of Aristotle and the legalism of the Roman Empire--the religion of Man in "this world."
They do not hold up under the scrutiny of The Word of God. That is why reading the Word of God is not encouraged, in fact it is discouraged.
The scriptures make one wise unto the Truth and the Peace that passes all understanding.
Selah,
Bro. James
They do not hold up under the scrutiny of The Word of God. That is why reading the Word of God is not encouraged, in fact it is discouraged.
The scriptures make one wise unto the Truth and the Peace that passes all understanding.
Selah,
Bro. James
Originally posted by Sirach:
You don't have to believe that, it's what I was taught. One of the most sung songs in our church was "Hail Holy Queen Enthroned Above". On the back wall of the chapel, directly behind the altar, was a HUGE painting of Mary with her arms outstretched, ready to receive and comfort us. Jesus was there too... dead on the cross and helpless to save. The "Hail Mary" was recited at least as often as the "Our Father". Mary has the title "Mediatrix", but I Tim. 2:5 says "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." Mary was, at the very least, co-equal with God. For all practical purposes, they turned the Trinity into a Quartet!
Mary was used by God to house the human body of Christ, to give Him His humanity. Christ is eternal, Mary is not.
Rev. 5:8 "And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints."
I am a saint by the new birth, not Rome's authorization, and I'm not in heaven. The verse does not say that the saints, whose prayers are referred to, are in heaven. If the saints in heaven were the ones praying, why were they not before God's throne offering them up? And if it's because they were not allowed to, why not pray to the four beasts and four and twenty elders? Wouldn't they have more direct access to the throne of God by that logic?
I'm sure your intentions are good, but I'll stick to Jesus Christ and the old King James!
In Christ,
Tim
Let me rephrase the question: How does a Catholic teach about being "born again"? The Bible reference is John Ch. 3 verses 1-12.
I am looking for a personal testimony of what God has done with you and yours--it is germane to the credibility of the subject(a spiritual one) and the one who introduced the subject.
I seek to see your spiritual credentials, not how many DD's you may have.
If you find this offensive, I am sorry.
Most people who are "born again" are more than willingly to share that happy condition with others.
What if Peter is not standing at the gates of heaven? Can we afford to wait to find out for sure? Will we have enough good works to get there? I know mine are all "filthy rags".
Selah,
Bro. James
I am looking for a personal testimony of what God has done with you and yours--it is germane to the credibility of the subject(a spiritual one) and the one who introduced the subject.
I seek to see your spiritual credentials, not how many DD's you may have.
If you find this offensive, I am sorry.
Most people who are "born again" are more than willingly to share that happy condition with others.
What if Peter is not standing at the gates of heaven? Can we afford to wait to find out for sure? Will we have enough good works to get there? I know mine are all "filthy rags".
Selah,
Bro. James
The subject is not of my being born again. The subject is what the Catholic Church teaches.
You could eaisly prove me wrong about what the Catholic Church teaches with links to the Catechism. Why do you wish to change the subject?
Because I'm correct in what the Catholic Church teaches? I think so. Christians rejoice in the truth James. Are you Christian?
God Bless,
Sirach </font>[/QUOTE]I don't have to provide you with a link to the catechism to tell you what the Catholic Church believes concerning born again, and what the Bible teaches concerning born again. They are poles apart from each other. Because you childishly insist on a paragraph # or a URL, I won't define it for you at this time.
But I will say this. The very fact that you are so evasive in answering (or rather refusing to answer) Bro James question: "Have you been born again? Explain." This gives credence to the view that you have not been biblically born again, and do not know what it means, and therefore are not a Christian in the Biblical sense of the word. "Born again" as defined by the Catholics is not the same as it is defined in the Bible.
DHK
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
These are the questions I asked -
You responded
If you have a well recognized accepted RC source telling us "What the New Covenant IS" and admitting that non-RC's are covered by it - then please provide a quote.
Otherwise - I will give a quote/reference to the well publicized well accepted RC source I found for that.
#2. Does the RCC claim that outside of the RCC there is no salavation?
A good example of how extensively this rule applies is -- #3.
#3. WOULD people like Billy Graham be considered among the "heretics" of the dark ages by the RCC such that the "extermination" policy of Lateran IV would apply "to him"? Because "if so" then all non-Catholic Christian fall into that category.
That means that anyone who is seen as differing with the RCC in the sense that Graham differs - would have been considered a heretic as would Graham and would have been subject to the torments of the inquisition (including burning) in the dark ages if the church were still able to do that.
That is a huge statement about the way the church thinks and operates!
On the other hand - to "Come clean" on that point all the Church would have to do is say "we were wrong about that in the dark ages. Our canon statements were wrong, our persecution of Christians was wrong we would never do that in the light of day in modern times because we know it to be wrong".
The point is that in the Mea Culpa statement of the Pope at the turn of the century - he was careful NOT to state the above specifics in his apology since it would infringe on the infallability claims of the RCC.
in Christ,
Bob
In any case - Question #1 remains -- The "NEW COVENANT" for non-RCs.
You responded
Thank you for that - however that is not a "yes" and is not a quote about the "New Covenant" from any RC source.
If you have a well recognized accepted RC source telling us "What the New Covenant IS" and admitting that non-RC's are covered by it - then please provide a quote.
Otherwise - I will give a quote/reference to the well publicized well accepted RC source I found for that.
#2. Does the RCC claim that outside of the RCC there is no salavation?
That sounds good - except when you look at the putlished RC documents on this they show Jews and heretics (those Christians that differ with the RCC official policy) as being condemned by this. Neither of those groups would claim the RCC is necessary for salvation - but BOTH are condemned in offical RC documents under the rule above.
A good example of how extensively this rule applies is -- #3.
#3. WOULD people like Billy Graham be considered among the "heretics" of the dark ages by the RCC such that the "extermination" policy of Lateran IV would apply "to him"? Because "if so" then all non-Catholic Christian fall into that category.
In any case - the point is that the RCC officially denied salvation to "Jews and Heretics" and it was in that context that the statement was made "no salvation outside the Catholic church".
That means that anyone who is seen as differing with the RCC in the sense that Graham differs - would have been considered a heretic as would Graham and would have been subject to the torments of the inquisition (including burning) in the dark ages if the church were still able to do that.
That is a huge statement about the way the church thinks and operates!
On the other hand - to "Come clean" on that point all the Church would have to do is say "we were wrong about that in the dark ages. Our canon statements were wrong, our persecution of Christians was wrong we would never do that in the light of day in modern times because we know it to be wrong".
The point is that in the Mea Culpa statement of the Pope at the turn of the century - he was careful NOT to state the above specifics in his apology since it would infringe on the infallability claims of the RCC.
in Christ,
Bob
S
Sirach
Guest
Bob,
God Bless,
Sirach
I have not seen this document, do you have a link to it from a Catholic source?
God Bless,
Sirach
S
Sirach
Guest
Christ was in Mary's womb. Christ's spirit was in Mary's womb. Luke 1:28.
Every saint in Heaven is eternal. Mary, is in Heaven.
Mary has not always been. Christ has always been. Mary will now live forever because she is in Heaven, as will all Christians who go to Heaven.
Again I STRESS I am NOT debating theology. I am stating facts to what the Catholic Church teaches and show those of you with misunderstandings what they teach, I am NOT saying that they are correct.
How can so many people who cry "Lord, Lord" be so blinded by hate that they can't see misconceptions to what the Church really teaches?
Matt 7:18
A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a rotten tree bear good fruit.
19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 So by their fruits you will know them.
21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.
22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?'
23 Then I will declare to them solemnly, 'I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers.'
Is the will of the father to pass on rumors and misconceptions of others? No, I don't think so.
Again I say... If I am wrong, show me with links to a Catholic Source, or your words are of little value because it is amply proven that many habor misconceptions, even those who claim to be once Catholic.
Also, I'm not saying the Catholic Church is right, but if we are to witness to Catholics about what they believe, we must get it right.
God Bless,
Sirach
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Now on THIS board we have it confirmed that Billy Graham hinmself would be classed in the group identified here
"[p.181]...It is thus, from this purely theological standpoint, that we are to understand the sharp anathemas pronounced by the Church against all heretics and schismatics...""
This means that to the extent that WE ALL here agree with Graham on his opposition against RCC errors - then we too are included in the application of that statement about "no salvation outside the RCC"
So then it is at best "inconsistently" that the post Vatican II church tries to "get the schismatics and heretics saved" while still claiming to be infallible in the above condemnation of the same group.
In Christ,
Bob
"[p.181]...It is thus, from this purely theological standpoint, that we are to understand the sharp anathemas pronounced by the Church against all heretics and schismatics...""
This means that to the extent that WE ALL here agree with Graham on his opposition against RCC errors - then we too are included in the application of that statement about "no salvation outside the RCC"
So then it is at best "inconsistently" that the post Vatican II church tries to "get the schismatics and heretics saved" while still claiming to be infallible in the above condemnation of the same group.
In Christ,
Bob