Your Chance to Defend Islam

Hello Net,

Actually I have talked to a Muslim and visited a Mosque in Raleigh, NC. The point of my posting questions here is to get Christians to think about these issues and discuss them openly. If you have something meaningful to contribute to the discussion please do so. Additionally, I am talking about these issues here because I see so many Christians buying into the ideas that Christianity and Islam are both equally valid ways to God and eternal life and that Islam is a wonderfully peaceful religion.

Likewise, I am making the assumption that everyone who is posting here can read the Quran for themselves and honestly and openly discuss what it has to say. Additionally, it is not a prejudice on my part to point out the contradictions that I see in the text of the Quran. Nor is it a prejudice on my part to be willing to hold the Bible up to that same level of scrutiny.

Therefore, I say again let's dig into the Quran and see what is has to say about peace and violence.

[ January 12, 2003, 07:19 AM: Message edited by: BibleboyII ]

 

Hello Johnv,

The only problem that I see is that the verses of the Quran that you have quoted to demonstrate that Islam is a peaceful religion are in direct conflict and contradic the verses that DHK posted earlier.

How can these contradictions be reconciled?

Also I would like for you to define the term "fellow believer" that you have applied to Jews, Christians, and Muslims equally. The best way to do that is to define what it is that these "fellow believers" are supposed to believe that is in common.

I assume by using the term you are indicating that each religious group believes in God.

The questions here is how does Islam and the Quran define Allah (God)? According to the teachings of Islam what is God like? What makes up His nature, His essential being?

[ January 19, 2003, 04:20 AM: Message edited by: BibleboyII ]

 

Hello Johnv,

It is interesting that, from the quote above, Shimon Peres appears to have accepted the idea that Islam is really a religion of peace and that only some fanatical fringe element is responsible for the violence caused by Islamic terrorists around the world. However, I'm not real interested in Shimon Peres' opinion on the subject. I want to talk specifically about what the Quran actually says. You see, the quote from Shimon Peres does not reconcile the contradictory verses of the Quran. It simply overlooks them.

As I understand it, The Quran is the highest authority in Islam. Therefore, it is the final word regarding issues of faith and practice in Islam. Next in authority come the sunna and the hadiths—for any issues that are not specifically addressed or defined by the Quran, the prophet’s life and informal sayings are the ultimate authority. In other words, when in doubt do as Muhammad did. Likewise, the hadiths include various sayings that are attributed to Muhammad. These sayings are used to clarify the revelation of the Quran; therefore, their authority comes close to the Quran itself. Theoretically, the Quran, the sunna, and the hadiths should be sufficient for all occasions. All one has to do is correctly apply the information. However, in real world that means that the Quran must be interpreted correctly in order to obtain the correct application. Hence, the concept of shari’a, or “Islamic law,” developed. These (meaning all of the above) are the authoritative documents of Islam. These are the documents that will help us to see exactly what Islam teaches regarding violence and peace. Now let’s use these sources to unravel the misinformation and resulting confusion surrounding Islam.

Now, we come to it. Does Islam teach belief in the God of Abraham as He (God) is defined by the Old Testament? Let’s see… “In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep, And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters” (Genesis 1:1-2, KJV). Here we have what appears to be, at the very least, God in two persons. We see God and the Spirit of God active in the creation of the cosmos. Then in Genesis 18 Abraham is visited by three men whom he addresses as “My Lord,” and they speak to Abraham with one voice in verse 5 (Genesis 18:1-15). This appears to be God in three persons. Finally, looking back upon the Genesis account through the further revelation of the New Testament we understand that in actuality all three persons of the Triune God were present and active in the creation event (see John 1:1-5). So by these and other texts we see that God is one God in three persons. Therefore, the God of Christianity is understood by Trinitarian Monotheism. Plus, He is a personal God who reveals and discloses Himself to mankind (this is an important distinction between the God of Abraham and the Allah of Mohammad).

According to Islam, Allah is one. Islam teaches a strict form of radical monotheism. There is no possibility of “God the Holy Spirit” and certainly not a “God the Son” (I’ll come back to this point later). Likewise, the Allah of Mohammad is not a personal god and does not disclose himself to mankind. This is why the angel Gabriel had to be the one to convey the message of the Quran to Mohammad. Allah could not be soiled by direct communication with a mere man.

Therefore, is it really accurate to say that Islam teaches belief in the God of Abraham, the God of both the Old Testament and of the New Testament? I think not. The very definitions of the Biblical God of Abraham and the Quranic Allah of Mohammad prevent the validity of such a claim.

You are sort of correct in this statement. Allah is not a proper noun in Arabic, just as God is not a proper noun in English. Allah is simply a word for God, and if we were to speak in Arabic about the God of the Bible, Allah would be the word that we would use. Therefore, in terms of a purely historical prospective we could say that Christians and Muslims worship the same God. However, from a theological prospective, there may well be points of similarity, but in the end when we consider the specific details we cannot make that claim.

The Quranic conception of Allah is strictly unitarian, because God is seen as one and one only (as you have pointed out). Mohammad considered the very notion of a “fatherhood” of Allah, which he associated with a sexual procreation of a son, as highly blasphemous. This is because of the highly sensualist version of Allah and his three daughters that were part of the pre-Islamic Maccan religion (I can provide more detail on the pre-Islamic religion of Mecca if you like). Since this idea conveyed notions of sexual activity on the part of Allah Mohammad had no use for the idea of Christ as the Son of God or for the Trinity. Clearly, Mohammad did not understand the Christian doctrine of the Trinity. The Quran indicates that Mohammad thought that the Christian Trinity consisted of God the Father, Jesus the Son, and Mary the Mother (5:116). Finally, in all forms of theism (Christianity, Judaism, and Islam) there are two characteristics of God. One is that He is transcendent (greater than the world, and not limited by it) and immanent (active within the world). However, in Islam a far greater emphasis is placed upon Allah’s transcendence. With that all said suffice it to say that there are sharp distinctions between the Biblical God of Abraham and the Quranic Allah of Mohammad that cannot be overlooked or reconciled.

What is the God of the Bible if not the Trinity: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit? And what is the Muslim God (Allah) if not the revealer of the Quran? However, these two descriptions are mutually exclusive.

[ January 29, 2003, 01:43 AM: Message edited by: BibleboyII ]

 

To point out another discinction between the God of the Bible and the Allah of the Quran:

The Quran contains many references to biblical material. Most scholars hold that Mohammad borrowed from the biblical stories from his Jewish and Christian contacts. However, in the Quran these stories are somewhat twisted. Sura 2 contains the story of Adam and Eve. According to the Quran Adam ate of the fruit and fell under God's wrath, but God's displeasure was soon tempered by his mercy. There was no lasting judgement. After a time God forgave Adam, who was then reinstated to God's favor. This is another major discinction between the biblical God of Abraham and the Quranic Allah of Mohammad.

[ January 28, 2003, 07:50 AM: Message edited by: BibleboyII ]

 

As we have seen in the previous two posts Islam purports to acknowledge “people of the book” (Jews, Christians, and Zoroasterians) as “fellow believers.” However, when we dig into the theological implications of the idea that Muslims, Jews, and Christians (not to mention Zoroasterians) all worship the God of Abraham we see that the very definitions of the biblical God of Abraham and the Quranic Allah of Mohammad are mutually exclusive. Therefore, in reality it is impossible to consider the adherents of these various religions as “fellow believers.”

In Islam there are six essential beliefs. Do not confuse these essential beliefs with the “Five Pillars of Islam,” which are the core practices of Islam. These essential beliefs are: (1) The Oneness of God, (2) Angels and Spirits, (3) Prophets, (4) Books, (5) Judgment, and (6) The Decree of God. Regarding books, according to the teaching of Islam the Prophets (also considered to be apostles) left books for their people. Zoroaster recorded his revelations, Moses wrote the law, David provided the Psalms, and Jesus left the Gospel. Therefore, just as Islam has the Quran, each of these religions has its holy books. Mohammad allowed these “people of the book” certain privileges and protections that were not available to pagans. When members of these groups paid a tax they were supposed to be allowed to practice their religion without being hampered. Likewise, Mohammad taught that it is possible for these “people of the book” to enter heaven. However, due to human nature, as Johnv has pointed out (my book is better than your book) it is not surprising that these ideals often were not fulfilled in practice.

Additionally, the pagan idolater or animist was never offered to opportunity to continue his religion when the Islamic armies conquered his nation. Such pagans were simply told to submit to the will of Allah, or die. Remember that Mohammad cooked up Islam in response to his rejection of the idolatrous pagan religions of Mecca. When he developed the idea that Allah is one and that one day Allah will judge the world he never stopped preaching it. He hated pagan idolatry. When he gained enough followers to create an army he returned to Mecca and captured the city. Once the city capitulated Mohammad removed all idols from it and he cleansed the ka’ba of all statues in a special ceremony. When Mohammad died in A.D. 632 he had become the religious and political head of much of the Arabian Peninsula.

According to the Encyclopedia of the World’s Religions “Islam spread by the conquests of the Arabs in the seventh century A.D. over Western Asia and North Africa, and in the eighth century A.D. into Central Asia, Sind, and Spain. From the eleventh century A.D., under Turkish leadership, it spread into Southern Russia, India and Asia Minor, and under Negro leadership in the Niger basin. In the fourteenth century A.D. it became politically dominant in the Balkans under the Ottoman Turkish Sultans, and in India under the Sultans of Delhi; and spread, largely by missionary endeavor, into Indonesia and China.” In each of these cases of Islamic expansion, with the exception of Indonesia and China, the religion was spread by military conquest. In other words, the majority of historic Islamic conversions occurred at the point of the sword.

 

Further contrasts between Yahweh (the Biblical God of Abraham) and the Quranic Allah of Mohammad (taken from Unveiling Islam: An Insiderer's Look at Muslim Life and Beliefs by Erun Mehmet Caner and Emir Fethi Caner).

Yahweh is eternal and changeless:

"Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning" (James 1:17).

Allah changes:

"If We supersede any verse or cause it to be forgotten, We bring a better one or one similar. Do you not know that Allah has power over all things!" (surah 2:106).

[ January 30, 2003, 02:50 AM: Message edited by: BibleboyII ]

 

Hello John,

You have to be very careful not to confuse the beliefs of modern Reform Judaism, modern Conservstive Judaism, or modern Orthodox Judaism with the beliefs of Old Testament Judaism. However, a simple straight forward reading of the O.T. reveals that the ancient Hebrews understood the biblical God of Abraham in His person as "God the Father." Likewise, Genesis and the Psalms reveal that the ancient Hebrews understood that "God the Father" is also present in the person of the Holy Spirit (Gen. 1:1-2; Psalm 51:11). Furthermore, the ancient Hebrews understood that a Messiah was to come. The prophet Isaiah foretold the coming of the Son of God, that He would be born of a virgin, and that He would be called Immanuel, which means "God with us" (Isaiah 7:14). Ancient Hebrews would never have agreed with the radical monotheism of Islam, nor would they have agreed that the Quranic Allah of Mohammad was/is one and the same as the O.T. God of Abraham, nor should we do so today. Like I said above, the very way that the ancient Jews, early Christians, and Zoroastrians understood and defined God and the Islamic understanding and definition of Allah are actually mutually exclusive and cannot be reconciled. Thus, there really are no "fellow believers" with Islam except for other Muslims.