Your Chance to Defend Islam

DHK, I stand corrected in Pakistan. Sorry, I didn't see your post until after I posted mine.

Wil, When you're done with your tantrum, maybe the rest of us can continue to discuss the subject.

[ January 08, 2003, 07:57 PM: Message edited by: Johnv ]

 

A dictatorship under martial law is not a democracy.
Let's continue an intelligent conversation based on intelligent FACTS. The leader of Pakistan is male not female.

 

John, take a deep breath, settle down. Holding you to the truth doesn't constitute a tantrum. You obviously have some emotional stake in defending Islam that is affecting your judgement.

Your inability to address facts doesn't constitute an ability on your part to "discuss a subject." You in fact are avoiding the subject.

As DHK posted above, please try to be more accurate with your "facts."

Or just admit you can't address the issues with facts but just with your opinions based on relativism.

If you decide to answer with facts, please respond back.

 

Christian Persecution Archives of Asia

• Christian Massacre Survivor Set Free in Karachi - Worthy News
• Laskar Jihad Disbands? - Worthy News
• Mob Destroys Church in South Sulawesi, Indonesia - Worthy News
• Myanmar Ministries Persist Through Persecution - Worthy News
• Karachi Gunmen Murder Pakistani Welfare Workers - Worthy News
• Indonesia: Christians Outraged Over Arrest of Their Leader - Worthy News
• Myanmar Closes Christian Orphanages - Worthy News
• Pakistan's Christians Told to 'Protect Themselves' - Worthy News
• Vietnam: Hmong Believers in Crucible of Persecution - Worthy News
• High Security Around Pakistan Churches As Hunt For Attackers Continues - CNS News
• Attackers Kill Christians At Pakistan Hospital - CNS News
• Islamic warriors near Christian town - World Net Daily
• Detained Vietnamese Church Leader Released After Sit Down Protest by Church - Worthy News
• Indonesian Christians Fear Imminent Attacks - Worthy News
• Blaspemy 'Convict' Shot Dead in Pakistani Jail - Worthy News
• Vietnam: 14 Tribal Pastors Sent to Undisclosed Prison - Worthy News
• They Sang in their Cells in Bangladesh Despite Persecution - Worthy News
• Rescued Missionary Worker Arrives Home - Worthy News
• Pakistani Defense Lawyers Threatened - Worthy News
• U.S. Missionary Hostage Killed in Philippine Rescue Attempt - Worthy News
• Laskar Jihad likely culprits in Indonesian bus bombing; Central Sulaweisi pastor martyred - Worthy News/VOM
• Indonesian Christians Face Tough Decision - Worthy News
• American Missionaries Turn One Year in Captivity - Worthy News
• Indonesia: Government Reins in Laskar Jihad - Worthy News
• Christians Secretly Forced to Re-Convert to Hinduism in India - Worthy News
• Indonesia Christian Killings: Militant Leader Arrested - CNS News
• Hmong Christians File Persecution Complaint with Vietnam Government - Worthy News/ANS
• Int'l Christian Groups Want Indonesian Jihad Fighters Expelled - CNS News
• Philippine Terrorists Taunt US, Threaten To Kill American Missionaries - CNS News
• Christians Killed In Renewed Attacks In Indonesia - CNS News
• Indonesia: Terrorism Explodes; Ambon Christians Appeal to U.N. - Worthy News
• Vietnam: Christians Denied Right to Exist - Worthy News
• Laos: Persecuted Believers Persevere - Worthy News
• $300,000 payment in Philippines fails for kidnapped missionaries - Worthy News
• Burma: Two Baptist Ministers Detained in Insein Prison - Worthy News
• Call For Tighter Security For Christians in Pakistan After Attack On Pakistan Church By Youths With Machine Guns - Worthy News
• Burmese Baptist Convention Banned On Orders of Junta - Worthy News
• Former Taliban Captives Tell How They Survived Imprisonment - Worthy News/ANS
• New Tribes Mission reiterates: 'no ransom' for kidnapped workers - Worthy News
• Saudi police face deaths criticism, Saudi Girls Burned Alive While Religious Police Prevent Rescue - Worthy News/ANS
• Indonesian Spice Islands Peace Plan In Danger Of Collapse Due To Violence Promoted By Islamist Extremists - Worthy News
• International Church Attacked in Pakistan - Worthy News
• Church in India Faces Increasing Threats, Ministry Leader Says - Worthy News/ANS
• Detained US Missionary Couple Cries Out for Help - Worthy News/ANS
• Abductors Will Make Missionaries Human Shield - Worthy News/ANS
• Killing Fields Become Harvest Fields in Cambodia - Worthy News
• Refugee Camp Destroyed As Part Of Ongoing Persecution Of Ethnic Minorities In Burma - Worthy News
• Vietnamese Christians Triumph Over Oppressive Persecution - Worthy News
• Traumatized Christians Ready to Return to Indonesian Homesites - Worthy News
• Muslim militia killing Christians, burning homes and churches in Indonesia - Worthy News
• Christians Under Attack in Poso, Indonesia - Worthy News
• Christmas Season Tense For Pakistan's Christians - Worthy News
• Attacks on Christian villages force 13,000 to flee in Indonesia's Sulawesi - AFP
• Aid Workers Freed in Afghanistan - Worthy News
• 50,000 Christians Surrounded by Islamic Jihad Forces - Worthy News
• Indonesia: Central Sulawesi Under Jihad Attack - Worthy News
• Crackdown on Laos Churches Continues - Worthy News
• Taliban Arrest 35 More Afghans in Alleged Missionary Probe - Worthy News
• Eight Foreign Aid Workers Appear in Afghan Court - CNS News
• Bush - Arroyo to Talk About Safe Release of Missionaries? - Worthy News/ANS
• Workers With Christian Organizations Leave Afghanistan as Crack Down Against Christians Intensifies - Worthy News/ANS
• Taliban Shuts Down More Christian Relief Agencies - CNS News
• Parents See Detained Aid Workers In Afghanistan - Worthy News/ANS
• Abu Sayyaf Seeks U.S. Negotiation for Missionary Safe Release - Worthy News/ANS
• Red Cross Visits Christian Workers Faced With Execution - Worthy News/ANS
• 'Complete Chaos and Lack of Order' now Reported on the Indonesian Island of Ambon: 'Systematic attempt to exterminate all Christians on the Island' - Worthy News
• Survivors of Jihad attack in Indonesia's Moluccas under threat - Worthy News
• Christians facing 'elimination' on Indonesian island of Ambon - Worthy News
• Urgent Prayer Plea for Christians caught up in the Crossfire of Sri Lanka's Civil War - Worthy News
• Christians in Indonesia's Maluku islands fear extermination - Worthy News
• Church leaders appeal for foreign intervention in Indonesia's Moluccas conflict - Worthy News
• Wave of attacks mounting against Christians in India - Worthy News
• Two churches hit with bomb attacks in India - Worthy News
• Man accused of killing missionary to seek public office in India - Worthy News
• Sri Lankan Pastors prepare for Persecution - Worthy News
• India's Christians Face New Century with Confidence - Worthy News
• Christians in Laos forced to recant their Faith - Worthy News
• Six missionaries beaten during gospel campaign in India - Worthy News
• Christians attacked by mob near Bombay- Worthy News
• Christians in Indonesia's Moluccas fear 'religious cleansing' - Worthy News
• Christians are being shot in public by Firing Squads in North Korea - Worthy News
• Maoist rebels kill two Christians in India - Worthy News
• Mongolia gives local Christian 13-year Prision Sentence - Worthy News
• Church leaders recount atrocities in Indonesia - Worthy News
• Spice Islands clashes continue - Worthy News
• Christian visitor to Indonesia issues Prayer Plea for Persecuted Christians suffering 'Ethnic Cleansing' - Worthy News
• Prosecutors deny Vietnamese Protestant's appeal of prison sentence - Worthy News
• Last Assembly of God church in Vietnam destroyed - Worthy News
• Vietnamese Churches Report Increase In Arrests - Maranatha Christian Journal
• Imprisoned Filipino Christians Deported To Manila - Maranatha Christian Journal
• Indonesian Christians Need Help in Face of More Attacks - Worthy News
• ‘Hit List’ Of Christian Evangelists On Hindu Extremist Website - Worthy News
• Terrorists Target Christians in Ambon - Worthy News
• Vietnamese Pastor's Letter A Plea For Help - Worthy News
• Kazakhstan: Prosecutor Issues Illegal Ban on Baptist Church - Worthy News
• Massive Crackdown Against Vietnam's Highland Christians - Worthy News
• India's Hindu Nationalists Seek To "Indianize" Christians - Worthy News
• Brunei Christians Suffer For Government 'Cult' Fears - Worthy News (April 20. 2001)
• Two Churches Closed in Laos as Authorities Tighten Control - Worthy News (April 18, 2001)
• Minority Christians "Punished" In Vietnam - Worthy News (April 17, 2001)
• Police Arrest Two Christians in Azerbaijan - Worthy News (April 12, 2001)
• New Blasphemy Case Filed Against Pakistani Christian - Worthy News (April 10, 2001)
• Baptist prisoner's family pressured to convert to Islam in Turkmenistan - Worthy News
• Baptists Attacked in Georgia - St Petersburg Times
• Mob Attacks Church in Tripura, India - Worthy News
• Violence Continues in Indonesia while Rescue Proceeds - Worthy News
• Christians Attacked in Sri Lanka While Praying - Worthy News
• Lawmakers Told of Atrocities Against Moluccan Christians - CNS News
• Christian Aid Responds to Horror in the Moluccas - Worthy News
• Panel examining Indonesian persecution hears Christian prof, Muslim leader - Worthy News
• Pakistani Court Aquits Three Christians of Blasphemy - Worthy News
• Christmas Church Bombings in Indonesia Meant to Provoke War - Worthy News
• Another Church Bomb Attempt Confirmed in Tajikistan - Worthy News
• Christian Workers Beaten For Showing 'Jesus' Film in India - Worthy News
• Indian Church Leader Warns of More Violence to Come - Worthy News
• Four Christians Still Languishing in Napali Jail - Worthy News
• Jailed Pakistani Christian Evangelists Freed on Bail - Worthy News
• Forced Conversions To Islam Continue in Indonesia - Worthy News
• Christians among ethnic minorities facing 'genocide' in former Burma - Worthy News
• Massacres Continue in Eastern Indonesia - Worthy News
• Turkmen Pastor and Family Evicted from their Home - Worthy News
• Christians flee Muslim radicals in Maluku islands - Times of India
• Ready for Reconciliation in Indonesia? - Worthy News
• Vietnam Undground Church Leader Wins 30 Vietnamese to Christ in .. America - Worthy News
• Indonesia Pastor Speaks about Survival of Attempt on his Life - Worthy News
• Fresh fighting breaks out in Indonesia - London Times
•Drive to stamp out Christianity in Laos having opposite effect - Worthy News
• Eyewitness in Ambon, Indonesia: Christians still suffering, dying - Worthy News
• Attacks on Christians in eastern Indonesia resume - Worthy News
• Executions of Christians Suspected in North Korea - Worthy News
• Fewer Christians Imprisoned in Laos - Worthy News
• Attacks on Christians in eastern Indonesia resume - Worthy News
• Executions of Christians Suspected in North Korea - Worthy News
• Fewer Christians Imprisoned in Laos - Worthy News
• Uzbek Police Jail Another Christian - Worthy News
• Vietnam Jams Hmong Christian Radio Broadcasts - Worthy News
• Military Officers Arrested for Killing Christians - Worthy News
• Return to the Killing Fields - Worthy News
• 'Complete Chaos and Lack of Order' now Reported on the Indonesian Island of Ambon: 'Systematic attempt to exterminate all Christians on the Island' - Worthy News
• Survivors of Jihad attack in Indonesia's Moluccas under threat - Worthy News
• Christians facing 'elimination' on Indonesian island of Ambon - Worthy News
• Urgent Prayer Plea for Christians caught up in the Crossfire of Sri Lanka's Civil War - Worthy News
• Christians in Indonesia's Maluku islands fear extermination - Worthy News
• Church leaders appeal for foreign intervention in Indonesia's Moluccas conflict - Worthy News
• Wave of attacks mounting against Christians in India - Worthy News
• Two churches hit with bomb attacks in India - Worthy News
• Man accused of killing missionary to seek public office in India - Worthy News
• Sri Lankan Pastors prepare for Persecution - Worthy News
• India's Christians Face New Century with Confidence - Worthy News
• Christians in Laos forced to recant their Faith - Worthy News
• Six missionaries beaten during gospel campaign in India - Worthy News
• Christians attacked by mob near Bombay - Worthy News
• Christians in Indonesia's Moluccas fear 'religious cleansing' - Worthy News
• Christians are being shot in public by Firing Squads in North Korea - Worthy News
• Maoist rebels kill two Christians in India - Worthy News
• Mongolia gives local Christian 13-year Prision Sentence - Worthy News
• Church leaders recount atrocities in Indonesia - Worthy News
• Spice Islands clashes continue - Worthy News
• Christian visitor to Indonesia issues Prayer Plea for Persecuted Christians suffering 'Ethnic Cleansing' - Worthy News
• Prosecutors deny Vietnamese Protestant's appeal of prison sentence - Worthy News
• Last Assembly of God church in Vietnam destroyed - Worthy News
• Vietnamese Churches Report Increase In Arrests - Maranatha Christian Journal
• Widow of Martyred Missionary Continues Work of Christ - CBN News
• India Faulted for Christian Attacks - Associated Press
• Imprisoned Filipino Christians Deported To Manila - Maranatha Christian Journal
• Vietnam - Four Churches Destroyed In A Campaign Of Intimidation Of Christian Ethnic Minorities - Conservative News Service

These are headlines of Christians that have or are presently being persecuted in just Asia--one part of this world. They all are fairly recent. Some of the incidents are by Hindus and maybe others. Most are by Muslims. Your can find the full article at: (Each headline is a link in itself)

Christian Persecution
DHK

 

DHK,
Some of these muslims think there is a war going on. In some wars thousands die.

When we bombed Afghanistan - was that going too far?

Islamic states have only been free from Christianity since about 1948/1960. Yes, more or less the whole Muslim world was in the hands of three christian nations. Britain, France and Holland (I'm not even going to discuss the USSR).

Can you imagine the typical British squaddie in 1940 in Pakistan? Do you honestly think the British Empire (and French and Dutch) were wonderful?

 

They think there is a war going on because there is in their minds: Islam against the rest of the world. All who are not Muslims are infidels.
Secondly you confuse Western nations and civilized nations with Christianity. America, Britain, Canada, and other European countries are not and never have been Christian countries. There is no such thing as a Christian country. Christians are always in the minority. We live in a pluralistic secular and humanistic nation. It is by no means a Christian nation. Through Muslim eyes, they will look at it as a Christian nation, but that doesn't make it a Christian nation; it is not.
Be that as it may: take the example of Britain and India and Pakistan in the 1940'a when India and Pakistan gained their independence from Britain in 1947. As long as they were under the control of Britain they prospered. The British built roads, put in a system of railway tracks and provided trains and cars, which are still used in both India and Pakistan to this day. They brought civilization to an otherwise unciviized nation. Most of the laws that these nations have were introduced by the British. Their system of government is patterned after the British. There is so much that the British did for them. English became the national language in both nations. They educated the people, establishing schools and hosplitals.
Then when the British gave India their independence in 1947 one of the mnost bloody wars in history was fought at the border of India and Pakistan, as the Hindus migrated into India, and the Muslims migrated into Pakistan. A tremendous amount of lives were lost; it was a very bloody war, with a lot of atrocities committed. The British pulled out. What once was a more civilized society became more degenerated. The hospitals and educational systems began to deteriorate, especially as they were nationalized, and the missionaries had to leave them in the hands of the government. Things just got worse and worse. Pakistan has not improved, it has gone from bad to worse. Islam does not have a positive effect upon most nations. The nation of Pakistan is a good example of that. The worst think that could have happpened is for the British to leave. Another result of the British leaving is the on-going conflict in the disputed territory of Kashmir, which India and Pakistan have now fought three wars over, and have recently threatened to fight a nuclear war over it.
DHK

 

All who are not Muslims are infidels.

Interesting verbage. If you look over several of the quotes from the Koran, both here and on similar threads, you'll see the this and similar words used in similar fashion.

Some verses ise the word infidel to refer to those who don't believe in one almighty God. Similarly, Muslims and "people of the Book" (Christians and Jews) are all referred to as believers.

Elsewhere, Muslims are referred to as believers, and non-Muslims are are referred to non-belivers. In some places, an infidel referrs to those who don't believe in an Almighty God, and in others, it uses infidels as non-Muslims.

I've heard it said that there's an understanding that "infidel" is understood to be a non-Muslim that wages war against Muslims for religious reasons, but I haven't been able to verify that. If anyone has heard similarly, let me know.

Lastly, I believe it was a report by Ted Koppel a few years ago in which it was stated that Al Quaeda views anyone, even a Muslim, who refuses to take up arms againsttheir cause, to be an infidel. I suppose that would be similar to the KKK saying that the rest of us are traitors to Christ.

 

Yet America in many Muslim lands is consistently referred to as "the Great Satan!"

 

take the example of Britain and India and Pakistan in the 1940'a when India and Pakistan gained their independence from Britain in 1947. As long as they were under the control of Britain they prospered. The British built roads, put in a system of railway tracks and provided trains and cars, which are still used in both India and Pakistan to this day. They brought civilization to an otherwise unciviized nation.

Well, maybe I've watched the movie "Ghandi" too many times.

India (and later, Pakistan), wanted to rule themselves, instead of be ruled. If we look aththe independence and the strife that the USA had to go through, I suppose I sympathise. Our own founding fathers had stated on numerous occaisions that it is preferable for the people of the United States to govern themselves in destitution rather than be governed by England in prosperity (No offense to our neighbors across the pond). In any event, India's desire to self government was not a religious arguement. While that was of concern with India and Pakistan, it was not with Britain.

 

I think we can thank the Ayatollah for that one. It's a great cath phrase whenever someone wants to use the US as a scapegoat.

 

Muslims say "USA the great satan" and boycott USA goods - so what?
loads of Americans say "EU the great satan". The USA is currently "boycotting" EU steel thus closing down the steel mills of Wales by putting huge tarriffs on Welsh steal. Thousands (well hundreds) of ordinary welsh workers are on the dole (many probably fundamentalist christians).

Net.

 

The U.S. is not a religious country like most Islamic nations. A Muslim is very serious about the statement "Great Satan," as evidenced by the death sentence on Salaman Rusdie's head. If America uses such a term (and I have never heard them publicly call another nation or international organization as such) like you suggest, then they would not mean it in the same sense that a Muslim does. They are not religious like the Muslim.
DHK

 

So far as the US and the EU, I'm inclined to agree with DHK.

 

DHK,
There is a whole fundamentalist industry based in the USA promoting that the EU is satanic.

This is a typical example:

http://lescouleurs.tripod.com/eu4.htm

Just put in as search parms in google "european union" and "satan". The whole thing is linked to this phrase "treaty of rome".

The oldest known location for Hell is actually the UK. "Hades" in the "Odyssey" is the land beyond Gibraltar. I'm not sure, but some bibles might have used the word "hades" for hell.

[ January 10, 2003, 01:29 PM: Message edited by: Netcurtains3 ]

 

This a quote from their website:

We are independent lay missionaries. We do not belong to any denomination nor are we a part of any type of mission board. We freely associate ourselves with anyone who preaches the true Gospel of Jesus Christ. We depend solely on the Lord Jesus Christ to provide for us as we labor in our free time to help spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ. If you would like to know more about us, then feel free to contact us at the following email address:

This is not the official position of the U.S. government.
It is the opinion of a couple of missionaries. It is not simply an opiinion held, put a position taken, by many Islamic nations, that America is the Great Satan. There quite a bit of difference here John. You need to open your eyes.
DHK

 

WHAT THE QUR'AN SAYS. The familiar term jihad, often translated holy war, literally means struggle. Many Muslims emphasize that jihad is about struggling against evil desires and, if necessary, defending one's homeland and religious heritage. "Fight for the sake of God those that fight against you, but do not attack them first. God does not love the aggressors. Slay them wherever you find them. Drive them out of the places from which they drove you. Idolatry is more grievous than bloodshed.... Fight against them until idolatry is no more and God's religion reigns supreme." (Qur'an 2:190-192) [Note: Qur'anic quotes from N.J.Dawood's English translation (The Koran, Penguin Books, UK, 1993)]. A favorite verse of moderate Muslims is 2:256 which says: "Let there be no compulsion in religion. True guidance is now distinct from error." Militant Muslims, however, will point you to numerous Qur'anic texts where Muhammad (as Allah's spokesman) commands his followers to fight and subdue all who resist Islam. What leads young men to volunteer to die for the privilege of killing others "for the cause of Allah"? Could it have something to do with the fact that Islam offers no certain hope of heaven to any of its adherents, with one exception? Consider these few Qur'anic verses...

* "As for those who are slain in the cause of God, He will not allow their works to perish. ... He will admit them to the Paradise He has made known to them." (47:8)

* "Let those who would exchange the life of this world for the hereafter, fight for the cause of God; whether he dies or triumphs, We shall richly reward him. ... The true believers fight for the cause of God, but the infidels fight for the devil. Fight then against the friends of Satan ..." (4:74,76)

* "The believers who stay at home––apart from those that suffer a grave impediment––are not the equals of those who fight for the cause of God with their goods and their persons. God has given those that fight with their goods and their persons a higher rank than those who stay at home ..." (4:95,96)

* "Slay the idolaters wherever you find them. ... lie in ambush everywhere for them. If they repent and take to prayer and render the alms levy, allow them to go their way ..." (9:5)

* "Those that make war against God and His apostle and spread disorder in the land shall be put to death or crucified or have their hands and feet cut off on alternate sides, or be banished from the land. They shall be held up to shame in this world and sternly punished in the hereafter: except those that repent before you reduce them ..." (5:34,35)

* "Make war on them until idolatry shall cease and God's religion shall reign supreme" (8:39)

* "Prophet, rouse the faithful to arms. If there are twenty steadfast men among you, they shall vanquish two hundred; and if there are a hundred, they shall rout a thousand unbelievers, for they are devoid of understanding." (8:65)

* "Fight against such of those to whom the Scriptures were given ... and do not embrace the true Faith, until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued." (9:29)

The Qur'an contains scores of similar verses.

Most Muslim Scholars see the world divided into two "houses"—the House of Peace (Dar Al-Salaam) and the House of War (Dar Al-Harb). The general idea is that Muslims belong to the House of Peace, while those who have not yet submitted to Islam belong to the House of War until they are "utterly subdued." However, even this distinction is often blurred since militant Muslims (who take the above verses at face value) also include moderate Muslims in the House of War. Consider further...

ISLAMIC NATIONS AROUND THE WORLD. The concept of jihad is rooted in another concept—Shari'a (Islamic law). Many of the world's more than forty majority-Muslim countries have embraced Shari'a, and those that have not are under relentless pressure to do so. For example, over the past nine years in Algeria, some 100,000 Muslims have been slain by militant Muslims. The reason? These militant Muslims want political control of the nation. This is a growing trend in the Islamic world—even though it is a trend despised by most Muslims.

http://answering-islam.org/TWOR/peacepromoting.html

The above is an excellent website to find relevant information.
DHK