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Your Chance to Defend Islam

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Netcurtains3

Guest
The reasons why Marks are given is that it is meant to improve the standard of teaching AND to give feedback to parents.
This concept might work with Churches too.

[ January 02, 2003, 03:10 PM: Message edited by: Netcurtains3 ]
 

Johnv

New Member
Man, I take two days away from the board for the new year, and look what happens!

It invariably, it only takes one person to ruin a shoebox by trying to stuff a car into it, and that's often what happens to threads such as these. But, I'm going to attempt to get to the original spirit of the thread with the followng quotes from the Quran. However, these are just a few, and my first day at work in the new year is preventing me from devoting much time to the task, so if y'all bear with me for a few days to catch up, I'll be forever in your debt.

First, a Muslim is supposed to accept scriptures as the word of God:
[God] gave the Scriptures to the Israelites and bestowed on them wisdom and prophethood.... Therefore, call men to the true faith... saying "I believe in all the scriptures that God has revealed."

Muslims are to practice what we know as the Golden Rule (do unto others, etc) :
Requite evil with good and he who is your enemy will become your dearest friend. Only by enduring with fortitude can this be done.

Christians and Jews are to be treated respectfully:
Be courteous in your debates with the People of the Book [Bible], except with those among them who do evil. Say: "We believe in that which is revealed to us and which was revealed to you. For God is one God."

Here's one that sounds familiar:

In the Torah God decreed a life for a life, an eye for an eye... But if a man charitably forbears from retaliation, his remission shall atone for him.

To those who have received the Scriptures and to the Gentiles it can be asked, "Have you given yourself to God? ...if they give no heed, then one's only duty is to warn them.


A Muslim who follows the Koran properly is to ascribe peace, not violence:

If anyone strikes down a person... it would be as if he struck down the whole people. And if anyone saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people.

If two parties of believers (generally, Christians, Jews, or Muslims) take up arms the one against the other, make peace between them. If either of them commits aggression against the other, fight against the aggressors till they submit to God's judgment. When they submit make peace between them in equity and justice, for God loves those who act in justice.

The believers are a band of brothers. Make peace among your brothers and fear God, so that you may be shown mercy.

Do not allow your hatred for other men to turn you away from justice.


Also, the Quran teaches that religious conversion should be neither forced, nor coerced, sayng there shall be no compulsion in religion. A Muslim is also to let he who wishes to [follow Islam] do so and let he who wishes to follow elsewhere] do so.

That's it for now. My apologies, but I really gotta get back to work, and I'll post more later.

[ January 02, 2003, 03:23 PM: Message edited by: Johnv ]
 
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Netcurtains3

Guest
I went to Tunisa on my holidays once. Seemed nice enough place. Most Muslims in the UK seemed to have originated in Bangledesh - they seem nice enough guys. Bangledesh is a sort of democracy and its leaders are women.

http://www.glocaleye.org/bangladesh.htm

I think there are about 600,000 Catholics in Bangledesh.

[ January 02, 2003, 03:54 PM: Message edited by: Netcurtains3 ]
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Originally posted by Johnv:


First, a Muslim is supposed to accept scriptures as the word of God:
[God] gave the Scriptures to the Israelites and bestowed on them wisdom and prophethood.... Therefore, call men to the true faith... saying "I believe in all the scriptures that God has revealed."

Most of what you have posted is in theory only, not in practice; some of it not even in belief. For example this one, especially. Muslims believe that not even one verse of the Bible has remained true or unchanged from its original. It all has been corrupted. The only part of the Bible that is accurate is contained within the Quran. So, even thought they say they believe the Scriptures, or parts of them, they really don't, only that which is contained in the Quran.

Muslims are to practice what we know as the Golden Rule (do unto others, etc) :
Requite evil with good and he who is your enemy will become your dearest friend. Only by enduring with fortitude can this be done.

Only in theory. In reality Islam is a religion of vengeance. The golden rule is actually twisted to mean if you do evil to mean expect evil right back. It is a rule of vengeance. Their god, Allah is a vindictive god, himself. It is in the nature of their religion to be vengeful.

Christians and Jews are to be treated respectfully:
Be courteous in your debates with the People of the Book [Bible], except with those among them who do evil. Say: "We believe in that which is revealed to us and which was revealed to you. For God is one God."

"Except with those who do evil," is very subjective. If I preach John 14:6, "Jesus said, I am the way the truth and the life; no man comes unto the Father but by me," that is slander on the name of Muhammed (although indirectly), for Mohammed is the way to Heaven. It is evil to preach Christianity; it is especially evil to preach about the trinity, or that God had a Son. In many Islamic countries it is against the law to try to convert a Muslim; and it is against the law for a Muslim to convert to Christ.

Here's one that sounds familiar:
In the Torah God decreed a life for a life, an eye for an eye... But if a man charitably forbears from retaliation, his remission shall atone for him.

Theory only; not practiced.

To those who have received the Scriptures and to the Gentiles it can be asked, "Have you given yourself to God? ...if they give no heed, then one's only duty is to warn them.

To which God? Have you given yourself to Allah? No Christian in their right mind would ever give themselves to Allah. Then warn them. Next step is kill them.

A Muslim who follows the Koran properly is to ascribe peace, not violence:
If anyone strikes down a person... it would be as if he struck down the whole people. And if anyone saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people.

No doubt this was part of the civil law that Mohammed instituted among his own people when he was trying to keep peace among his own people. People do not follow the Koran today, so it is largely not applicable.

If two parties of believers (generally, Christians, Jews, or Muslims) take up arms the one against the other, make peace between them. If either of them commits aggression against the other, fight against the aggressors till they submit to God's judgment. When they submit make peace between them in equity and justice, for God loves those who act in justice.
This could be construed as an excuse to make war. If two parties are arguing with each other, and they don't make peace with each other, then the Muslims should step in and with force make peace. "Fight against the aggressors." What do you think Saddam Hussein is telling the Islamic world today?

The believers are a band of brothers. Make peace among your brothers and fear God, so that you may be shown mercy.
No doubt there is an element of unity among many of the Muslims, but not all of them. But they will unite to fight the infidel.

Do not allow your hatred for other men to turn you away from justice.

That depends what is meant by "justice." Was it justice in the minds of the Muslim to crash those planes into the WTC towers? Many think so.

Also, the Quran teaches that religious conversion should be neither forced, nor coerced, sayng there shall be no compulsion in religion. A Muslim is also to let he who wishes to [follow Islam] do so and let he who wishes to follow elsewhere] do so.
This is false, however. There are many forced conversions, and have been throughout history. It was the practice of Mohammed and his followers to conquer by the sword. Convert or die.
DHK
 

sodzei

New Member
More quotes from the Islamic Scriptures:

"The Prophet said, on the day of the Conquest of Mecca, 'There is no migration, but Jihad and good intentions, and when you are called for Jihad, you should immediately respond to the call.'" Hadith 4.52.311

"If anyone desires a religion other than Islam, it will never be accepted of him." Surah 3:85

"the Unbelievers are open enemies to you." Surah 4:101

"Seize them and slay them wherever you find them: and in any case take no friends or helpers from their ranks." Surah 4:89

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the last day." Surah 9:29

"Let those fight in the cause of Allah who sell the life of this world for the Hereafter. To him who fights in the cause of Allah, -whether he is slain or gets victory- soon shall We give him a reward of great value." Surah 4:74

The three things that are most valued to Allah:
1. to offer prayers
2. to be good to one's parents
3. "The Prophet said, 'To participate in Jihad for Allah's Cause." Hadith 8.73.1

"But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever you find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them, in every strategem of war." Surah 9:5
 

sodzei

New Member
Notice I have provided references so that you can go back and check the context of each passage.

Where are the references to what you quoted, JohnV?

[ January 02, 2003, 04:26 PM: Message edited by: sodzei ]
 

LadyEagle

<b>Moderator</b> <img src =/israel.gif>
Jesus Christ never killed one person when He lived on this earth.

Can the same be said about Muhammed?
 
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Netcurtains3

Guest
Hi,
He never claimed to be God. You have to compare like with like.

Compare Muhammed to a leader of a nation who was also a prophet.
Joshua.

I think Muhammed seems a far nicer chap then Joshua.

I think Joshua killed women and children - he committed genocide.

[ January 03, 2003, 03:05 AM: Message edited by: Netcurtains3 ]
 

Bible-boy

Active Member
Originally posted by Latreia:
Do you think Christianity can be held to that standard using the Bible to prove that it teaches peace, given the wars of the OT? Can you offer an explantion that does not involve a "contradiction"?
Yes. I have already done so in a similar debate with the poster named Postit in an earlier thread. However, let's deal with the issue of Islam and the Quran in this thread so we can remain focused on that specific topic. Simply use the Quran to demonstrate that Islam is a peaceful religion.

[ January 03, 2003, 07:34 AM: Message edited by: BibleboyII ]
 

Bible-boy

Active Member
Originally posted by Netcurtains3:
Hi,
He never claimed to be God. You have to compare like with like.

Compare Muhammed to a leader of a nation who was also a prophet.
Joshua.

I think Muhammed seems a far nicer chap then Joshua.

I think Joshua killed women and children - he committed genocide.
Okay, just this once let's put this fallacy about the Old Testament to rest so that we can focus on what the Quran has to say about violence and peace.

You cannot compare the judgement of righteous, sovereign, Holy God against the pagan nations of Cannan with the self serving forceable conquests of Mohammad. Holy God passed judgment upon the peoples of Canan and chose to use the nation of Israel to bring His judgement about. Mohammad defeated Mecca and forced its innocent civilians to submit to Islam because he was mad that they had run his nutty self out of town 10 years before. Plus, he had cooked up the religion of Islam because he rejected the pagan idolatry and worship of multiple gods of Mecca. He may have meant well, but he missed the mark and created another false religion that simply worshiped one god without idolatry.

Additionally, because God judged the pagan nations of Cannan and used the Israelits to carry out that judgment does not mean that all Christians are to go out and kill other worshipers of different world religions. You cannot make that jump and remain loyal to the Bible. The God of the Bible never commands Christians to kill worshipers of other religions. We are to carry the Gospel to them. He will judge them and carry out His justice when He returns.

Now please let's focus on the teachings of the Quran and Islam in this thread. Please no more personal experiences in interacting with Muslims etc. We want to look closely at the teachings of the Quran and the history of Islam in this thread. If you want to discuss other issues and/or topics start a new thread please.

[ January 03, 2003, 07:30 AM: Message edited by: BibleboyII ]
 

sodzei

New Member
"Fighting is prescribed for you, and you dislike it. But it is possible that you dislike a thing which is good for you, and that you love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knows, and you know not." Surah 2:216

[ January 03, 2003, 12:32 PM: Message edited by: sodzei ]
 

Johnv

New Member
Originally posted by SheEagle9/11:
Jesus Christ never killed one person when He lived on this earth.

Can the same be said about Muhammed?
Mohammed to Islam is not what Jesus is to Christians. A better comparison of Mohammed would be Solomon, David, or Joshua.
 

Johnv

New Member
DHK, you disagreed with my quran references, but haven't listed any quotes from the Quran to support your vies, like Sodzie has, for example. You say that several of the points I bring up are just theoretical practices. If that is so, why are these things that American Muslims readily know and follow? If you don't believe me, ask an American Muslim.

To Sodzie, yes, I can provide references. I had done so before, but there didn't seem to be an interest. You do a good job doing the same.

Two things become apparrant. One, that, just as in the Bible, there are passages that, if without regard to context, will be diametrically opposed in message. The second, that, just as with Christians, it's possible to pick and choose your beliefs, and use single passages to back your stance.
 

blush

New Member
I don't know that much about the Quran, but from what I see here, it seems similar to the Old Testament. There are many passages advocating and even commanding war, killing, and so on, in both books. Muslims are simply without the New Covenant. Is that their fault? No, I would rather say it is no different from others who do not know of Jesus as He truly is, and I would also venture to say that part of it is our fault for not loving them enough to present the Gospel to them instead of insulting them.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Originally posted by Johnv:
DHK, you disagreed with my quran references, but haven't listed any quotes from the Quran to support your vies, like Sodzie has, for example. You say that several of the points I bring up are just theoretical practices. If that is so, why are these things that American Muslims readily know and follow? If you don't believe me, ask an American Muslim.
John I looked through your post and I did not see any Quranic refences. There were some quotations, but none of them were referenced that I could see. I refuted what you said on the basis of my own experience with Muslims, and what they practice and teach. I have talked to many Muslims. As many as one out of ten in our city are from Asian descent, many if not most, Muslim.
DHK
 

LadyEagle

<b>Moderator</b> <img src =/israel.gif>
Originally posted by Johnv:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by SheEagle9/11:
Jesus Christ never killed one person when He lived on this earth.

Can the same be said about Muhammed?
Mohammed to Islam is not what Jesus is to Christians. A better comparison of Mohammed would be Solomon, David, or Joshua.</font>[/QUOTE]Why is that, Johnv? Jesus Christ is the Cornerstone of Christianity. Muhammed is regarded to be the cornerstone of Islam. Equal comparisons...founder v founder.

Mohammed claims to be a prophet. Solomon, David, and Joshua did not make that claim. So the comparison you suggest would be as apples to oranges.
 

Johnv

New Member
If you're comparing founder to founder, Jesus Christ did not come here to found a religious institution.

If you want to compare founder to founder, I guess you'd have to compage Mohammed to Abraham.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Napoleon (cited by Vernon C. Grounds, The Reason for Our Hope) said: "I know men; and I tell you that Jesus Christ is not a man. Superficial minds see a resemblance between Christ and the founders of empires, and the gods of other religions. That resemblance does not exist. There is between Christianity and whatever other religions the distance of infinity.... Everything in Christ astonishes me. His spirit overawes me, and His will confounds me. Between him and whoever else in the world, there is no possible term of comparison. He is truly a being by Himself. His ideas and sentiments, the truth which he announces, His manner of convincing, are not explained either by human organization or by the nature of things.... The nearer I approach, the more carefully I examine, everything is above me -- everything remains grand, of a grandeur which overpowers. His religion is a revelation from an intelligence which certainly is not that of man.... One can absolutely find nowhere, but in Him alone, the imitation or the example of His life.... I search in vain in history to find the similar to Jesus Christ, or anything which can approach the gospel. Neither history, nor humanity, nor the ages, nor nature, offer me anything with which I am able to compare it or to explain it. Here everything is extraordinary.
 
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