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Pastor Larry,
Better yet, with his logic, God could still send all of us to Hell, even after saying we were saved. The Daniel and Romans passages he quotes would justify it just as much as what he is suggesting. All that stuff about "wouldn't be fair to punish for paid sins" or "God said He does not lie"? Who are you O man that replies back to God? See the can of worms such misuse of that verse opens? So obviously, this means God does not do everything He "could" do as the Sovereign. Else, we could have no hope for what He will do with us.
The "hypothetical" here is Paul's reasoning as to the "fact" of God's having mercy on some and hardening others. Look at the context of the passage:
God hardens some and has mercy on others. Paul states that as a fact. He then hypothesizes as to why that fact is the case. Notice his "what if" comes well after he has stated fully the position that God does as He wills among humanity. You're the one who needs to read all of the words...in context.
He can make people choose a course of action that he later punishes.For I also withheld you from sinning against Me; therefore I did not let you touch her. Gen. 20:6 (Doesn't this violate Abimilech's free will?)
He commanded the wholesale slaughter of men, women, children, and animals.
He created people with handicaps and disabilities and then refused to allow them to serve in His temple.
He does whatever He pleases.
He sent an angel to lie to a prophet to lead Ahab to his death.
He offered Job as a challenge to Satan.
He gave multiple wives to David as a gift and even offered to give him more.
He forced Jonah to go to Nineveh when he absolutely did not want to go. (Another violation of man's free will!
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UR MORAL STANDARDS AND DOESN'T CARE WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT THAT! That 's the thrust of Romans 9. You don't have the right to question God. As for me, I take comfort in the fact that God is truly God and that He's not in heaven biting His nails wondering in what direction mankind is going to steer human history. You obviously don't understand that the two are inseparable. In going to the nation of Israel and revealing Himself and His covenant of redemption, He left the poor Chinese, American Indians, Europeans and anyone else that wasn't living in Israel at the time in the cold. Israel, by virtue of being God's elect nation, was the only nation with knowledge of God's redemptive purposes. That means that all of those other peoples lived and died without knowing about God's redemptive plan. So God's choosing an elect nation carried a redemptive purpose also.
Still, with this logic, He could still torture all of us, and the idea that He said He wouldn't lie is just "our moral standard". God said he takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked (as people claim damnation is for His "sovereign pleasure"), and if you can override that with His "decretive will", then you can override His promises (He would be "obligated" to us).The fact of the matter is that God absolutely does whatever He pleases whether we like it or not. This is what truly makes Him God. Unfortunately, our sinful natures rebel against Him being God. We want to place Him in a box and make Him subject to our own moral codes and ethics. To all of you Arminians, GOD IS NOT SUBJECT T
God can indeed do anything He pleases, but the key words there are HE PLEASES. What pleases God is always in keeping with His nature.
Well, I would never say that God can override His character, but what I mean when I make a statement like "God can do as He pleases" is really something like this: It doesn't really matter much what I think of what God does. My judgment on these things (as a human being, and a fallen one at that) is not really such that it can be trusted in these matters. Therefore, I have to rest in the truth that if God tells us He does something, then that something is the right thing to do.
If God so chose, He could do that however He has stated clearly that He will not. He has also stated clearly that He will not lie so we can trust what He says. However, God is not bound to do those things because of any ethical or moral code. God is free to do whatever He chooses; yet, Scripture informs us that God's actions are solely for His glory. This is what pleases Him. God is righteousness; therefore, He doesn't do something because it's righteous, it is righteous because He does it. Everything that He does and everything that is done on Earth is solely for His glory and nothing else.
God only allows what is necessary for His glory, both in humanity's actions and in His actions. He is, however, free to do whatsoever He pleases to do. A good analogy is the physical laws of the universe. God created those laws, such as gravity, motion, relativity, etc., for us, but He is not bound by them. In the same sense, He created a moral law for us, but He is not bound by that moral law Himself. That is why He can and does command us to not murder; yet, He is free to take and give life as He pleases. God's ordering of Saul to totally annihilate the Amalekites, men, women, children, and animals is not murder on God's part.
The Arminian view deep down does not acknowledge the gravity of this verse. It portrays a God who does what people expect He will do and is somehow bound to provide mankind with some kind of fair dealing. He is not bound to do anything for us and He only provides redemption to us because it will ultimately glorify Him.
Amen, brother. What a gracious, mighty, and powerful God we serve
I personally resent that statement... You are saying we can no nothing of my God... Well my God has shown us again and again we can... I believe what my God has shown us through his doctrine that we can see with spiritual eyes... The same as the Burean brethren which btw was not the doctrines of men. I'm sure all the brethren like me question our God all the time and if you didn't how would you learn! I don't see my God in heaven rolling dice!... Brother Glen
Show me, Dr. Berrian, please, one scripture where it is evident that mankind is not an already condemned race, fallen thru Adam, and that mankind is still to undergo condemnation or about to undergo condemnation and I will agree with you that the Lord damns (as in present tense) men to hell.
So along the same line, God says He does not purposely give people no chance to repent and then "hold them responsible" and danm tham as "vessels of wrath" anyway. It's to this everyone responds "Who are you that replies to God", but God did not say that, people are reading it into scriptures. In this light, tyndale said:
I'm not saying we can know nothing of God. But people are using a verse to try to silence everyone else as if God spoke here in person, when it's a human interpretation of God's words that's being "questioned" or "replied" to.
But the Bible clearly says He does this, and none of here are questioning that. That's far different from the questionable premise of reprobation or preterition. In fact, people can even see mercy in the killing of the infants, because they were already polluted with horrible atrocities (seeing their siblings sacrificed to pagan gods, etc), and would have grown up warped, demonically oppressed/posessed, etc. and this goes along with God's character of love.
Calvinism takes these issues and then thinks it can extend the principle to eternal destruction in Hell. But God does not extend it to that. It's not predictability according to the way we think, it's trustability according to what He says His will is. (You're doing the same thing you accuse Arminians of when you determine how He must manifest His "sovereignty" and then read it into the scriptures).
I had wanted have another discussion of the "wills" of God, to bring up a point, and here is the perfect opportunity.
Well, I don't think God gives anyone NO CHANCE to repent (and neither do most other Calvinists, at least as far as I know.). God gives people every chance to repent, it's just that given their obstinate hearts, they won't do what God asks of them. There is no barrier keeping them from repenting save the barrier against God in their own hearts. God holds people responsible because deep down, every single person knows that there is an eternal, invisible, all-powerful God who they ought to be worshipping, but to a man, they refuse to acknowledge Him.
Well, I think its pretty clear from scripture that there are those to whom it has "not been given to come", and that without this, they will choose to continue in unbelief. But my point with the example is that none of us are really in a position to judge what God does, because what we think God ought to do and what He actually does can be different things.
But we are never told that God was being merciful rather than just judgmental, are we? We are never told what the eternal fate of those little ones was, are we? What we are left with is simply the knowledge that killing those infants was the right thing to do, because the righteous God did it, and then we can speculate all we want as to the reasons God did things the way He did.
Scott,