The Handful?

[KenH]

Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
Again, will you answer the question? Why is this not a problem of ethics for you?

Because, Scott, I trust God.

One who trusts God,

Ken
Were it not for grace...

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by Primitive Baptist:
Are you implying God isn't "ethical" in His purpose according to election, "not of works but of Him that calleth?" (Rom. 9:11) Who are you to reply against the Almighty Sovereign of the universe? We don't have the right or privilege to question God.

He's unethical in your system. The Almighty Sovereign is not unethical in mine.

"And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?" (Dan. 4:35)

But we're disagreeing on what He's doing.

"Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?" (Rom. 9:20)

Will people ever read the Jeremiah passage that the Romans passage refers to?

Certainly not! The main problem with Arminians is they don't keep the attributes of God in balance. They preach love, love, love, but forget God hates all workers of iniquity (Ps. 5:5) and hated Esau (Ron. 9:13).

God hates all workers of iniquity, so he hates all men. I don't have a theological problem with that due to the balance between that and his love for sinners. Read the passage that Paul is referring to in Romans 9:13. It's that simple. Why do you think God hated Esau?

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
Why do you think God hated Esau?

Well, Scott, we know it wasn't because of anything that Esau had done.

(Rom 9:10-14 NKJV) And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac {11} (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), {12} it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger." {13} As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated." {14} What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not!

One redeemed by Christ's blood,

Ken
Were it not for grace...

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by Ken Hamilton:
Well, Scott, we know it wasn't because of anything that Esau had done.

(Rom 9:10-14 NKJV) And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac {11} (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), {12} it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger." {13} As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated." {14} What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not!

Ah, but do you not see the Scripture Paul is referring to. It says that the older shall serve the younger. That's found in Genesis. But the passage, "Jacob I loved, Esau I hated" comes hundreds of years later in the book of Malachi. Malachi is speaking about the countries of Edom and Israel - and the idea of corporate election follows.

Again, what is the reason God hated Esau?? (Because God said so, again?)

 

[russell55]

Eric,

I had wanted have another discussion of the "wills" of God, to bring up a point, and here is the perfect opportunity.

To keep from making this conversation even more scattered than it already is, I will start a new one specifically on this subject, okay?

I will try to participate in the new conversation as much as I can, but we have big company coming tomorrow, so I can't promise much....

 

[Eric B]

Well, I don't think God gives anyone NO CHANCE to repent (and neither do most other Calvinists, at least as far as I know.). God gives people every chance to repent, it's just that given their obstinate hearts, they won't do what God asks of them. There is no barrier keeping them from repenting save the barrier against God in their own hearts. God holds people responsible because deep down, every single person knows that there is an eternal, invisible, all-powerful God who they ought to be worshipping, but to a man, they refuse to acknowledge Him.

And, BTW, every calvinist I have ever met, supra/infra/whatever, believes that preterition (or reprobation) is from God's inactivity rather than His activity. (There may be some who think that God actively works unbelief in the reprobate, but I don't know any.) Men reprobate themselves, by remaining in their state of unbelief.

If they can only "choose" to reject god because He has "passed them over", then they have "no chance".
Most Calvinists hold that up as what makes the salvation of the elect sure and not just a "possibility". Then, the scriptures they support it with, particularly Roman 9, describe God actively doing something to the so-called "vessels of wrath", and making them that way. (we disagree as to what that is, and if this is a proof-text for the reprobation of "non-elect" individuals, but whichever interpretation, God is clearly doing something). There is no escaping it.

But my point with the example is that none of us are really in a position to judge what God does, because what we think God ought to do and what He actually does can be different things.

But no one is judging what God DOES; we're challenging the very assumption that that is what He does in the first place. As long as it's an argument between men and God has not personally told any of us that that is right, we can (and should) question it.

But we are never told that God was being merciful rather than just judgmental, are we? We are never told what the eternal fate of those little ones was, are we? What we are left with is simply the knowledge that killing those infants was the right thing to do, because the righteous God did it, and then we can speculate all we want as to the reasons God did things the way He did.

God is both justice and love. They do not contradict or override each other, but work together. So while the bible does not tell us that is why He kills the children, it is possible, based on God's love. Reprobation is pure hatred, and yes, many Calvinists, including some here, admit that, (under the premise that his decrees and justice override His love).