The Handful?

Because, Scott, I trust God.

One who trusts God,

Ken
Were it not for grace...

 

He's unethical in your system. The Almighty Sovereign is not unethical in mine.

But we're disagreeing on what He's doing.

Will people ever read the Jeremiah passage that the Romans passage refers to?

God hates all workers of iniquity, so he hates all men. I don't have a theological problem with that due to the balance between that and his love for sinners. Read the passage that Paul is referring to in Romans 9:13. It's that simple. Why do you think God hated Esau?

 

Well, Scott, we know it wasn't because of anything that Esau had done.

(Rom 9:10-14 NKJV) And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac {11} (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), {12} it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger." {13} As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated." {14} What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not!

One redeemed by Christ's blood,

Ken
Were it not for grace...

 

Ah, but do you not see the Scripture Paul is referring to. It says that the older shall serve the younger. That's found in Genesis. But the passage, "Jacob I loved, Esau I hated" comes hundreds of years later in the book of Malachi. Malachi is speaking about the countries of Edom and Israel - and the idea of corporate election follows.

Again, what is the reason God hated Esau?? (Because God said so, again?)

 

Eric,

To keep from making this conversation even more scattered than it already is, I will start a new one specifically on this subject, okay?

I will try to participate in the new conversation as much as I can, but we have big company coming tomorrow, so I can't promise much....

 

If they can only "choose" to reject god because He has "passed them over", then they have "no chance".
Most Calvinists hold that up as what makes the salvation of the elect sure and not just a "possibility". Then, the scriptures they support it with, particularly Roman 9, describe God actively doing something to the so-called "vessels of wrath", and making them that way. (we disagree as to what that is, and if this is a proof-text for the reprobation of "non-elect" individuals, but whichever interpretation, God is clearly doing something). There is no escaping it.

But no one is judging what God DOES; we're challenging the very assumption that that is what He does in the first place. As long as it's an argument between men and God has not personally told any of us that that is right, we can (and should) question it.

God is both justice and love. They do not contradict or override each other, but work together. So while the bible does not tell us that is why He kills the children, it is possible, based on God's love. Reprobation is pure hatred, and yes, many Calvinists, including some here, admit that, (under the premise that his decrees and justice override His love).