What must one do to be saved???

Well if that's true, then why was the word "hades" originally used here, if hades is not also hell:

"And in hell ("hades" in the original Greek) he lift up his eyes, being in torments and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am in torment in this flame." - Luke 16:23&24

As I have just shown you, hades contains hell; if you are able to discern it. This means that hell is in hades and/or hades in hell.

This means the scholars of the KJV of the Bible knew what they were doing.

Jesus indeed went into hell, if he went into hades.

God bless.</font>[/QUOTE]And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and (46) death and Hades (47) gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them (48) according to their deeds.
14 Then (49) death and Hades were thrown into (50) the lake of fire. This is the (51) second death, the lake of fire.
15 And if anyone's name was not found written in (52) the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. - Revelation 20:13-15 NASB

Hell is not in Hades, Hades will be thrown into hell one day however.

 

Hades contains 2 places: paradise and torment. Lazarus went to paradise and the rich man to torment. Jesus went to paradise (as he told the thief) and left after 3 days, as David prophecied. He is certainly not still there. Everything in Hades is temporary, because Hades will be destroyed. The 'hell' that is in Hades is not eternal but is temporal. Eternal hell is Gehenna, "the lake of fire," is where Hades will be cast in the end, so it is not inside Hades, but Hades WILL BE inside it (as Dualhunter posted above).

When I asked if you were a "Baptist-JW" I meant Jehovah's Witness, because you seem to hold their belief that Jesus was not raised bodily.

[ August 14, 2002, 04:30 PM: Message edited by: SolaScriptura ]

 

Then where was the rich man who was in torment in the flames? The Greek says he was in "hades," which contradicts your assertion; unless there is another place in hades in where people are in torment in flames.

I'm sorry, but I stand firm on my proven assertion. Unless there is another place in hades where people are in torment in flames, then hell and hades are indeed synonymous with the same place; which is apparently why the KJV scholars translated it as so. And I used the Greek that you mentioned, to prove it.

I'm sorry, but you can't have it both ways. You can't direct me to the Greek, and then ignore the Greek when it proves you to be in error.

Not trying to be rude, but just frank.

God bless.

 

You obviously just missed the edit of my post. There is currently a temporary 'hell' in Hades, but Hades itself will be cast into eternal hell (gehenna) in the end.

Since you missed it, I'll post it down here:

Hades contains 2 places: paradise and torment. Lazarus went to paradise and the rich man to torment. Jesus went to paradise (as he told the thief) and left after 3 days, as David prophecied. He is certainly not still there. Everything in Hades is temporary, because Hades will be destroyed. The 'hell' that is in Hades is not eternal but is temporal. Eternal hell is Gehenna, "the lake of fire," is where Hades will be cast in the end, so it is not inside Hades, but Hades WILL BE inside it (as Dualhunter posted above).

[ August 14, 2002, 04:33 PM: Message edited by: SolaScriptura ]

 

"As I have just shown you, hades contains hell; if you are able to discern it. This means that hell is in hades and/or hades in hell."

I'm sorry, but your theory is seriously flawed, IMHO, as I would hardly consider a place "paradise" where one could see others in torment in flames.

The original Greek, as I was trying to explain to "Dualhunter," reveals that hades and hell are synonymous; which is apparent to me as to why the translators of the KJV used the word "hell," when such a word was properly called for during the use of the Greek word "hades."

I stated previously that Christ went into hell, and the original Greek backs this up, by revealing in Luke 16:23&28 that the place of "torment," or "hell," is also called hades, the original Greek word used in Acts 2:27&31.

Then where was the rich man at who is mentioned in Luke 16:23-31, who the original Greek said he was in "hades," and that while there he was in "torment" in "flames?"

I'm sorry, but I contend and assert once again that the lake of fire is simply a part of hell, and that hell encompasses more than the lake of fire, seeing how the word "hades" was used in the original Greek to describe both the place of torment and flames where the rich man went who was mentioned in Luke 16, and where Christ possibly went as mentioned in Acts 2:27 and Acts 2:31 (the place in hades where Abraham and Lazarus were at), if he did not actually also spend some time in the flames of hell.

No, I am not a "Baptist-Jehovah's Witness." And the belief I hold is that I have yet to see anything in the Bible that states that Jesus is in heaven with the same body he had on earth. He arose on earth with the same appearing body, apparently, but I do not believe I have ever seen anything that states he still has that same body in heaven.

I also mentioned his blood being poured out upon the earth.

God bless.

[ August 14, 2002, 05:08 PM: Message edited by: Ruht ]

 

If you study Greek mythology (even just an introductory course), you'll discover that Hades is much more consistent with Sheol, than hell. Tartarus would be closer to hell. The fact that Hades and Thanatos (death) will be thrown into the lake of fire which is a place of eternal torment, would strongly suggest that the lake of fire is hell (because that's where the eternal torment will be) and Hades is not (because it is temporary and will itself be thrown into the lake of fire).

 

I don't quite think that you are grasping what I have been trying to explain to you, and that is that the Bible, not "Greek mythology," is where "hell" is called "hades." And this occurs in Luke 16:23, in the original Greek text.

God bless.

 

I don't quite think that you are grasping what I have been trying to explain to you, and that is that the Bible, not "Greek mythology," is where "hell" is called "hades." And this occurs in Luke 16:23, in the original Greek text.

God bless.</font>[/QUOTE]You are telling me that Hades = hell. Hades did not mean hell to the writers of the New Testament, they got the word from the Greek which is why I am considering what they thought the word meant.

 

I agree with Dualhunter. And, please note that the apostles would not have used the term Hades if they were'nt going to use it in the same way as the Greeks.
Note the following commentaries:

The Baptist scholar John Gill on Acts 2:27

The Geneva Bible's Footnote on Acts 2:27

Family New Testament Notes

Ecclectic Notes

Poole

Robertson's New Testament Word Pictures

The Four Fold Gospel

Scofield on Acts 2:27

Barne's Notes on Acts 2:27

[ August 14, 2002, 07:24 PM: Message edited by: SolaScriptura ]

 

You are absolutely, 100% INCORRECT, as THEY PROVE THEY MEANT HADES TO MEAN HELL WHEN THEY WROTE LUKE 16:23! I AM SORRY THAT THIS IS NOT ABLE TO BE SEEN BY YOU AT THIS TIME.

I will try to make this as plain as I know how, and I ask you to slow down and read this very closely:

In Luke 16:23, the writer of Luke, under the Holy Spirit, wrote apparently IN THE ORIGINAL GREEK that the rich man who was in "torment" and in "flames" was in "HADES." Therefore this is obvious (once revealed) even to a child that if he was in "HADES," and while he was in "HADES" he was in "TORMENT" and in "FLAMES," then "HADES," THE PLACE WHERE HE WAS IN TORMENT AND IN FLAMES, THEREFORE HAS TO BE HELL, AS HELL IS THE PLACE OF TORMENT AND FLAMES.

I'm sorry if you consider me rude by typing in all caps and much bold text, but I don't know how much more plain to make this SIMPLE, yet apparently not being able to be grasped by you, FACT.

Now, if you are trying to say that the person who wrote Luke in the Greek was not the original writer of Luke, and that he translated it into the Greek from perhaps an original Hebrew text, then I can see how you have a possibly legitimate argument to assert. But if that is not what you assert, and you do indeed claim that the original text and writer of Luke wrote it in the original Greek, then you haven't a leg to stand on, and you are seriously stumbling over scripture.

God bless.

[ August 15, 2002, 02:58 PM: Message edited by: Ruht ]

 

Perry:
I never left out anything in my post that was germain ot the issue. The gift of the Holy Spirit may be salvation as the phrase is also used in Romans 6:23. It could be the miraculous as per Joel 2:28. The fact that one may argue either position is IRRELEVANT TO THE ISSUE OF BAPTISM IN ACTS 2:38. Peter plainly and emphatically states baptism is for unto the obtaining of the remission of sins.Some do not like that but their problem is with the word of God.

 

You are absolutely, 100% INCORRECT, as THEY PROVE THEY MEANT HADES TO MEAN HELL WHEN THEY WROTE LUKE 16:23! I AM SORRY THAT THE OBVIOUS IS NOT ABLE TO BE SEEN BY YOU AT THIS TIME.

I will try to make this as plain as I know how, and I ask you to slow down and read this very closely:

In Luke 16:23, the writer of Luke, under the Holy Spirit, wrote apparently IN THE ORIGINAL GREEK that the rich man who was in "torment" and in "flames" was in "HADES." Therefore this is obvious even to a child that if he was in "HADES," and while he was in "HADES" he was in "TORMENT" and in "FLAMES," then "HADES," THE PLACE WHERE HE WAS IN TORMENT AND IN FLAMES, THEREFORE HAS TO BE HELL, AS HELL IS THE PLACE OF TORMENT AND FLAMES.

I'm sorry if you consider me rude by typing in all caps and much bold text, but I don't know how much more plain to make this SIMPLE, yet apparently not being able to be grasped by you, FACT.

Now, if you are trying to say that the person who wrote Luke in the Greek was not the original writer of Luke, and that he translated it into the Greek from perhaps an original Hebrew text, then I can see how you have a possibly legitimate argument to assert. But if that is not what you assert, and you do indeed claim that the original text and writer of Luke wrote it in the original Greek, then you haven't a leg to stand on, and you are seriously stumbling over scripture.

God bless.</font>[/QUOTE]Hell is a place of eternal suffering, not temporary suffering. People suffer on Earth, does that make it hell? Hades is not eternal which is why the dead will be removed from it, and both the dead whose names are not in the book of life and Hades itself will be thrown into the eternal lake of fire which is hell. The lake of fire, is the place of eternal suffering and therefore hell.

 

Ruht: Did you read ANY of the commentaries that I posted above? Answer their arguments.

 

Yes, and they were tedious to me, as they did not answer the points I raised.

Hades is indeed hell, or at the least consists of hell, and the writer of Luke 16:23-31 reveals this through the Holy Ghost; if one is able to discern it.

And the "paradise" Jesus spoke of was not hades, but heaven, where Christ also was at, besides being in hell. For Christ is God, but apparently some have difficulty remembering and/or understanding this truthful concept. I do not believe that "paradise" is a place where people are able to see others suffering terribly. If you think it is, or if some the so-called scholars you cited think it is, they and you are sadly mistaken, IMHO.

If you witnessed a person suffering horribly, but you were not suffering, but were able to be "comforted" by another person, and able to drink water and to have nourishment, that can hardly be construed as "paradise." Christ told the thief on the cross that he would be with Christ in "paradise" that day, because all saved souls were released from the grave that day; as witnessed in Matthew 27:53, for they had been redeemed. Paradise is in heaven, not in hades.

Paradise is "up," in "heaven," not down into the "earth," in hades; as revealed in II Corinthians 12:2-4:

"I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth How that he was caught up into paradise... " - II Corinthians 12:2-4

And here:

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God." - Revelation 2:7

And we know the tree of life is in heaven, not in hades:

"And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life..." - Revelation 22:1&2

Ask me nice and I might.

However, the answer to your post can be found in my reply to Dualhunter, and in the others I wrote to you. Perhaps you should try answering those.

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." - I Corinthians 2:14

God bless.

[ August 15, 2002, 01:05 AM: Message edited by: Ruht ]

 

Says who? where does it say in the Bible that both cannot occur in hell? I'm not saying necessarily you are wrong, but rather that what makes that have to be? Is God limited in ability?

No, but these people were not suffering "on Earth," so therefore your analogy appears irrelevant; at least to me.

So you are saying that the "flames" and "torment" that they endure before the great white throne judgment is different than the flames and torment they will receive after? I'm sorry, but you have offered nothing to support your allegation, that I can see. Flames and torment are flames and torment, IMHO.

God bless.

 

Ruht: I'm going to assume that you are a Calvinist, and that you get this Jesus having to suffer our punishment in hell stuff from Calvin or a misinterpretation of Calvin. SO, notice this: CALVIN'S BIBLE, THE GENEVA BIBLE, HAS A FOOTNOTE IN ACTS 2:27 SAYING: "You will not allow me to remain in the grave." -- That's Calvin's Geneva's interpretation of the verse.

Here is the thing to focus on.

(Rev 20:14 KJV) "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."

(Rev 20:14 NKJV) "Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."

Can hell be cast into itself? If one hell is to be cast into another, isn't the one to be cast in temporal and the one it's being cast into eternal? You completely ignore this fact.

Concerning your statement that Paradise is in Heaven, I agree, but it wasn't always. It was originally in Hades, but Christ, "when he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men." (Eph 4:8) You obviously didn't read any of the things I posted very carefully at all.

You also ask "So you are saying that the 'flames' and 'torment' that they endure [in the torment side of hades] before the great white throne judgment is different than the flames and torment they will receive after [in actual hell]?" -- YES!! Notice, that in Hades the rich man could SEE Abraham, while in hell, Jesus says there is "outer darkness" (Mat 8:12) and "no light" - different, right??? Actual hell is furthermore different because "the whole body should be cast into hell" (Mat 5:29) wheras in the torment side of hades only the soul is present.

Notice Revelation 20:13 "and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works." (KJV) -- WHAT?? If they weren't judged yet, why were they in hell???? "and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works." (NKJV) -- Makes more sense now.

Furthermore, you ignore that Jesus Himself said He would go to Paradise and you furthermore deny that He was raised bodily. There's nothing worse than a JW, so I'm not even sure why I'm still talking to you.

[ August 15, 2002, 01:42 PM: Message edited by: SolaScriptura ]

 

I haven't ignored anything as you state. Rather it is you not noticing things, and therefore not interpreting scripture properly, IMHO.

For, let's see if you have noticed a very pertinent fact on that verse, for I ask you: Where is the place of "death?" For that verse says "death and hell (hades) were cast into the lake of fire." Therefore, since you are apparently interpreting "hell" or "hades" to be in reference to a place, not in reference to those who were in such a place, then I ask you where the place of "death" is.

You have stumbled over this important piece of revelation, and therefore you have interpreted scripture in haste, rather than standing upon the sure foundation and waiting for the Holy Spirit to reveal scripture unto you.

What that verse is actually referring to is the people of "death" and "hell," not the place. People who are "dead" and in "hell" ("hades").

I read them as carefully as I chose, but my disagreement with you is not the result of me not reading them as carefully as you wish, but in me simply not agreeing with you. You apparently presume that had I read what you wrote, more carefully, that I would agree with you; as though you are right and that my disagreement with you is because I just haven't read something well, not that I don't have genuine disagreement with you.

I'm sorry, but your verse of Ephesians 4:8 does not convince me of your contention.

No, not right, not convincingly right, anyway. the Bible also says that whosoever hateth his brother is in darkness (I John 2:9&11); yet those who hate their brothers can see others upon this earth, can they not?

It appears to me that you have a habit of thinking your hasty interpretations and impressions of scripture are always correct. But sir, many stumble for interpreting scripture in haste. Only the author of a writing is able to properly interpret what he means by what he has written, and God has hidden his wisdom and revelations from the natural man; as so revealed in I Corinthians 2:6-14.

Oh please, Christ was making an analogy to someone losing a little rather than a lot. Are there not spiritual bodies?

"It is sown in a natural body; it is raised in a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a SPIRITUAL BODY." - I Corinthians 15:44

It doesn't say they weren't judged yet. You are very adept at assuming things and interpreting scripture in haste. What it says is that they were judged "according to their works," it does not say they were judged "for the first and only time in all manners." However, that is how you are foolishly interpreting it in haste.

The word of God is sharper than any twoedged sword, my friend, you would do good to learn this.

Apparently this is a judgment of the already condemned, for their "works." However, they have already been judged for refusing salvation, for why else would they already be in punishment. For if you care to remember, some went on one side of the gulf in hades, to the "bosom of Abraham, and the others went into torment on the other side of the gulf. If they had not been judged for something, then why would they not all be together until the judgment?

"Furthermore," I could not have ignored anything of the sort, because Christ said nothing of the sort. What Jesus actually said was "Today shall you be with me in paradise," not that he was "going" to paradise.

And I do not deny that Christ was raised from the dead "bodily," or at least he appeared to his disciples in a body displaying the wounds he suffered. However, I have seen nothing in the Bible which states he went into heaven with the same body he had while on the earth. He may indeed have the same appearance, and perhaps he may even still have the same scarring, but I have seen nothing that states he will have the same physical body he had upon the earth. In fact, he even stated to Mary not to touch him until he ascended up to the Father, first, after he had risen out of the tomb. (John 20:17) This is indicative to me that a change occurred from that moment until he was touched by Thomas, in verse 27 of that same chapter.

I'm sorry if you were not able to notice this.

Well, I'm not sure, but I would say that a person who doesn't listen to someone who has stated he is not a "JW," is worse than one who is one.

And if you do not want to talk with me, then so be it. I did not come in here to necessarily talk to you, but to state what we must do to be saved; which is what the topic of this thread is. Apparently the only reason I am talking with you so far in this thread is to be kind enough to answer you.

I am sorry you are so frustrated in your apparent incompetency at convincing me of what I deem to be your erroneous positions on scripture. However, feel free to write to me any time, if you wish, anyway.

God bless.

 

You're not striking me as particularly humble so the "IMHO" doesn't mean much. What the verse is saying by saying that Thanatos (death) and Hades (realm of the dead) is that both the body and spirit were taken and thrown into the lake of fire and then from then on there will be no more death (outside of the lake of fire) because death has been thrown into hell never to be released.

 

Is there a rule in here requiring me to be "humble" unto people like you, Dualhunter?

Actually, I don't really think I am trying to be "humble," rather I am trying to be as polite as I can be under the circumstances. I suggest that others try the same with me.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion. However, I prefer the interpretation of that passage which I offered. Those dead "and" in hell were cast into the lake of fire after they were judged according to their works. "Death" is not a place, it is a condition; at least in this sense of the word, IMHO.

Nothing too complicated here; at least to me.

God bless.

 

Sorry, I missed this:

You seem to have a habit of "assuming" things; which is one of the reasons I believe you stumble at scripture.

Jesus took our punishment upon him, and there is nothing you can do about it. If blood was all that was required, then he could have simply cut himself with a knife, bled a little, and then gone merrily on his way.

I am sorry that you are missing one of the most important tenets of Christianity.

Then talk to Calvin.

"Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us..." - - Galatians 3:13

"For Christ was once offered to BEAR THE SINS OF MANY..." - Hebrews 9:28

"Who his own self BARE OUR SINS IN HIS OWN BODY ON THE TREE..." - I Peter 2:24

God bless.