"Here is the thing to focus on.
(Rev 20:14 KJV) "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."
(Rev 20:14 NKJV) "Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."
Can hell be cast into itself? If one hell is to be cast into another, isn't the one to be cast in temporal and the one it's being cast into eternal? You completely ignore this fact."
I haven't ignored anything as you state. Rather it is
you not noticing things, and therefore not interpreting scripture properly, IMHO.
For, let's see if you have noticed a very pertinent fact on that verse, for I ask you: Where is the place of "death?" For that verse says "
death and hell (hades) were cast into the lake of fire." Therefore, since you are apparently interpreting "hell" or "hades" to be in reference to a
place, not in reference to those who were
in such a place, then I ask you where the place of "death" is.
You have
stumbled over this important piece of revelation, and therefore you have interpreted scripture in
haste, rather than standing upon the sure foundation and waiting for the
Holy Spirit to
reveal scripture unto you.
What that verse is actually referring to is the
people of "death" and "hell," not the
place. People who are "dead" and
in "hell" ("hades").
"Concerning your statement that Paradise is in Heaven, I agree, but it wasn't always. It was originally in Hades, but Christ, "when he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men." (Eph 4:8) You obviously didn't read any of the things I posted very carefully at all."
I read them as carefully as I chose, but my disagreement with you is not the result of me not reading them as carefully as you wish, but in me simply not agreeing with you. You apparently presume that had I read what you wrote, more carefully, that I would agree with you; as though you are right and that my disagreement with you is because I just haven't read something well, not that I don't have genuine disagreement with you.
I'm sorry, but your verse of Ephesians 4:8 does not convince me of your contention.
"You also ask "So you are saying that the 'flames' and 'torment' that they endure [in the torment side of hades] before the great white throne judgment is different than the flames and torment they will receive after [in actual hell]?" -- YES!! Notice, that in Hades the rich man could SEE Abraham, while in hell, Jesus says there is "outer darkness" (Mat 8:12) and "no light" - different, right???"
No, not right, not convincingly right, anyway. the Bible also says that whosoever hateth his brother is
in darkness (I John 2:9&11); yet those who hate their brothers can see others upon this earth, can they not?
It appears to me that you have a habit of thinking your hasty interpretations and impressions of scripture are always correct. But sir, many stumble for interpreting scripture in haste. Only the
author of a writing is able to properly interpret what he means by what he has written, and God has
hidden his wisdom and revelations from the natural man; as so revealed in I Corinthians 2:6-14.
"Actual hell is furthermore different because "the whole body should be cast into hell" (Mat 5:29) wheras in the torment side of hades only the soul is present."
Oh please, Christ was making an analogy to someone losing a little rather than a lot. Are there not
spiritual bodies?
"It is sown in a natural body; it is raised in a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a SPIRITUAL BODY." - I Corinthians 15:44
"Notice Revelation 20:13 "and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works." (KJV) -- WHAT?? If they weren't judged yet, why were they in hell????"
It doesn't say they weren't judged yet. You are very adept at assuming things and interpreting scripture in haste. What it says is that they were judged "
according to their works," it does not say they were judged "for the first and only time in all manners." However, that is how you are foolishly interpreting it in haste.
The word of God is
sharper than any twoedged sword, my friend, you would do good to learn this.
"and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works." (NKJV) -- Makes more sense now.'
Apparently this is a judgment of the
already condemned, for their "
works." However, they have already been judged for refusing salvation, for why else would they already be in punishment. For if you care to remember, some went on one side of the gulf in hades, to the "bosom of Abraham, and the others went into torment on the other side of the gulf. If they had not been judged for something, then why would they not all be
together until the judgment?
"Furthermore, you ignore that Jesus Himself said He would go to Paradise and you furthermore deny that He was raised bodily.:"
"Furthermore," I could not have ignored anything of the sort, because
Christ said nothing of the sort. What Jesus actually said was "Today shall you be with me in paradise," not that he was "going" to paradise.
And I do not deny that Christ was raised
from the dead "bodily," or at least he appeared to his disciples in a body displaying the wounds he suffered. However, I have seen nothing in the Bible which states he went into
heaven with the
same body he had while on the earth. He may indeed have the same
appearance, and perhaps he may even still have the same scarring, but I have seen nothing that states he will have the same physical body he had upon the earth. In fact, he even stated to Mary not to touch him until he ascended up to the Father, first, after he had risen out of the tomb. (John 20:17) This is indicative to me that a change occurred from that moment until he was touched by Thomas, in verse 27 of that same chapter.
I'm sorry if you were not able to notice this.
"There's nothing worse than a JW, so I'm not even sure why I'm still talking to you."
Well, I'm not sure, but I would say that a person who doesn't listen to someone who has stated he is not a "JW," is
worse than one who is one.
And if you do not want to talk with me, then so be it. I did not come in here to necessarily talk to you, but to state what we must do to be saved;
which is what the topic of this thread is. Apparently the only reason I am talking with you so far in this thread is to be kind enough to answer you.
I am sorry you are so frustrated in your apparent incompetency at convincing me of what I deem to be your erroneous positions on scripture. However, feel free to write to me any time, if you wish, anyway.
God bless.
then the dark and dismal abode of departed spirits; and then the place of torment. As the word is used now by us, it by no means expresses the force of the original; and if with this idea we read a passage like the one before us, it would convey an erroneous meaning altogether; although formally the English word perhaps expressed no more than the original. The Greek word hades means, literally, a place devoid of light; a dark, obscure abode; and in Greek writers was applied to the dark and obscure regions where disembodied spirits were supposed to dwell. It occurs but eleven times in the New Testament. In this place it is the translation of the Hebrew, sheol. In #Re 20:13,14, it is connected with death. "And death and hell (hades) delivered up the dead which were in them." "And death and hell (hades) were cast into the lake of fire.’ See also #Re 6:8 1:18, "I have the keys of hell and of death." In #1Co 15:55, it means the grave. "O grave (hades), where is thy victory?" In #Mt 11:23 it means a deep, profound place, opposed to an exalted one; a condition of calamity and degradation opposed to former great prosperity. "Thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell, (hades.) In #Lu 16:23, it is applied to the place where the rich man was after death, in a state of punishment: "In hell (hades) he lifted up his eyes, being in torments." In this place it is connected with the idea of suffering; and undoubtedly denotes a place of punishment. The Septuagint has used this word commonly to translate the word sheol. Once it is used as a translation of the phrase, "the stones of the pit, (#Isa 14:19); twice to express silence, particularly the silence of the grave, (#Ps 94:17; 115:17); once to express the Hebrew for "the shadow of death," (#Job 38:17