What must one do to be saved???

[Warrior4Christ]

For by grace are ye saved through faith and that not of yourself, it is a gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast!

You get baptised for the remission of sins just like you get a ticket For Speeding!

You get baptised because of the remission of sins not for. you get a ticket because you were speeding not so you can speed!

What about a person on his death bed that cannot get to the baptism tank? Can he be saved????

Pray about it!

 

[Perry]

Jerrybrooke,
People that trust in Jesus will want to follow His doctrines.
If you were a little boy and daddy told you to feed the goldfish while he was away at work. YOu would have two choices, to feed the goldfish or not to.
If you did not, there would be a tinge of guilt for disobeying.
However if you did, there would be relief of conscience.
Baptism works on this principle. We are justified and given a clear conscience.
If one mistakenly gets baptized thinking he is already justified, that individual needs to go get baptized the right way.

Perry

 

[Perry]

Click Here

 

[Ruht]

We are all under the death penalty for our sins, and this penalty is eternal separation from God, in a place of "torment." The only way to get out from under this penalty is for someone righteous to step forward and take our punishment for us, and for us to allow that punishment to cover us.

And this is what Christ did. He took our punishment for us at Calvary. He died and actually went into hell in our place. If we accept what he did we will be covered by what he did. If we refuse to accept what he did, then we will have to pay for our sins ourselves, which is eternal separation from God, in hell.

Eternal life now is as easy to obtain as it was in the garden of Eden, for it is still just as free, thanks to the new tree of life, Jesus Christ. He hung on a tree for us, and his flesh and blood is the free food we can "eat" in order to have free eternal life.

And that's it. Not one work or further effort is needed to obtain eternal life, or to keep it. For it is and always will be free, and non-earnable.

And with salvation comes the inward change in the heart of all who believe on Christ, in order to make us into new creatures who no longer are led about by the spirit of sin. The Holy Spirit literally comes into the hearts of all who become saved, to make us natural creatures of righteousness, just as God is. For unless the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gormorrah.

God bless

[ August 13, 2002, 10:52 PM: Message edited by: Ruht ]

 

[Frank]

Warrior:
The Bible says one is baptized for unto the obtaining of the remission of sins. Acts 2:38.If one is saved before and without baptism, he is also saved without repentance. Is an unrepentant man saved? Peter said Repent and be baptized. The ideas are connected as it pertains to forgiveness. The coordinating conjunction connects repentance and baptism in obtaining of the remission of sins.
Finally, the man that is sick and can not get to the water has the same problem as the man that is sick and cannot repent. Mat. 3:8, Lk. 13:3,5. He has the same problem as the man that is so sick he cannot confess Christ. Mat. 10:32. He is so sick he now does not have the intellectual ability to have faith in the Gospel. Romans 1:16, Romans 10:17, Hebrews 11:6. The fact is, God has provided the assurance of the Now. II Cor. 6:2, James 4:14.

 

[SolaScriptura]

You get baptised for the remission of sins just like you get a ticket For Speeding! (Warrior4Christ)

I realize you're probably more knowledgeable about speeding than baptism, but have you ever read 1 Peter 3:21?

(1 Pet 3:21 NIV) "and this water [of the flood] symbolizes baptism that now saves you also--not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,"

Peter says:

(1) The flood symbolizes baptism (NIV) or Baptism corresponds to the flood (NASB) or as the NRSV puts it "And baptism, which this [the flood] prefigured, now saves you--..."

(2) Baptism now saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Baptism saves because it plants us into the likeness of Jesus' death so that we can then be raised into the likeness of His resurrection (Rom 6:5)

(3) It's efficacy does not come from the water (or the water's power to clean the body) but from the resurrection of Christ Jesus

(4) Faith is necessary for baptism to save because the point of baptism is to "pledge the conscience to God"

And this is what Christ did. He took our punishment for us at Calvary. He died and actually went into hell in our place. (Ruht)

As I have heard many times, "If my salvation depends on Christ going to hell for me, then I am not saved because I deserved an eternity in hell and He left after 3 days." Read Hebrews 9:22 and you will see that remission of sins does NOT come by punishment, but by the shedding of blood. It was by the shedding of blood, not by punishment that Christ saves. Christ told the thief that He was going to paradise NOT HELL and I believe Christ. Acts 2:27 is mistranslated in the KJV. The blood of Christ cleanses the Christian from all sin, and that is why He is saved. It is the absence of sin, not the absense of wrath that saves. We are not saved because Jesus took all our wrath and there is none left, because there is wrath left (Heb 10:26+) BUT RATHER the applied blood of Christ our Passover makes us sinless. (1 Cor 5:7)

We are all under the death penalty for our sins, and this penalty is eternal separation from God, in a place of "torment." The only way to get out from under this penalty is for someone righteous to step forward and take our punishment for us... (Ruht)

And did Christ take that punishment? NO!!! He is not eternally separated from God in hell, but He is at the right hand of God. Salvation is by the shedding of blood not by punishment.

[ August 14, 2002, 12:06 AM: Message edited by: SolaScriptura ]

 

[jerrybrooke]

"If one mistakenly gets baptized thinking he is already justified, that individual needs to go get baptized the right way."

I don't find this as a biblical statement and will treat it as such.

There is no biblical basis whatsoever for this statement without stringing together verses.

 

[jerrybrooke]

Frank.

Why is these parts of Acts 2:38 often left out when talking to others:

"every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ"
" and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

One would think by the way you speak that Acts 2:38 literally reads:

"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you for the remission of sins."

 

[Perry]

"If one mistakenly gets baptized thinking he is already justified, that individual needs to go get baptized the right way."

I don't find this as a biblical statement and will treat it as such.

There is no biblical basis whatsoever for this statement without stringing together verses.

Is this really how ya feel? Cause how about people that take a shower or go swimming? Would not that constitute baptism? To say one need not know he is obeying to be saved is a very dangerous concept. Be careful of your answer. The garbage coming out of the seminaries eventually leads to universalism.

Perry

[ August 14, 2002, 01:09 AM: Message edited by: Perry ]

 

[Perry]

Frank.

Why is these parts of Acts 2:38 often left out when talking to others:

"every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ"
" and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

One would think by the way you speak that Acts 2:38 literally reads:

"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you for the remission of sins."

If ya can't defeat the message , go after the messenger, or in other words, AD HOMINEM

Perry

 

[Ruht]

"And this is what Christ did. He took our punishment for us at Calvary. He died and actually went into hell in our place."

"As I have heard many times, "If my salvation depends on Christ going to hell for me, then I am not saved because I deserved an eternity in hell and He left after 3 days." Read Hebrews 9:22 and you will see that remission of sins does NOT come by punishment, but by the shedding of blood. It was by the shedding of blood, not by punishment that Christ saves."

I don't quite know what to say to someone who doesn't think the shedding of Christ's blood was not our punishment being put upon him, for it surely was. He was made sin for us. This is what his "shedding of blood" was for:

"Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all." - Isaiah 53:4-6

"Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, and he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand. He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied; by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors, and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors." - Isaiah 53:10-12

"Christ told the thief that He was going to paradise NOT HELL and I believe Christ."

So do I. However, Christ is God, and God indeed was in heaven, even when another part of the trinity of God, Christ, was in hell. When Christ said to the thief, "Today you shall be with me in paradise," he was simply telling the thief that he would indeed be with God in paradise on that day, for Jesus Christ is indeed God.

"Acts 2:27 is mistranslated in the KJV. The blood of Christ cleanses the Christian from all sin, and that is why He is saved. It is the absence of sin, not the absense of wrath that saves. We are not saved because Jesus took all our wrath and there is none left, because there is wrath left (Heb 10:26+) BUT RATHER the applied blood of Christ our Passover makes us sinless. (1 Cor 5:7)"

There can be no "absence" of sin if it is not paid for first.

And Acts 2:27 is not "mistranslated," For Peter was quoting David, in Psalms, which states the same thing:

"For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption." - Psalm 16:10

"We are all under the death penalty for our sins, and this penalty is eternal separation from God, in a place of "torment." The only way to get out from under this penalty is for someone righteous to step forward and take our punishment for us."

"And did Christ take that punishment? NO!!!"

Yes.

"He is not eternally separated from God in hell, but He is at the right hand of God. Salvation is by the shedding of blood not by punishment."

If his death eternally separates us from sin, then his death is eternally separated from God, along with that sin. I'm sorry you are not yet able to see that.

"By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; From henceforth expecting till his enemies became his footstool. For by one offering he hath perfected forever them that are sanctified." - Hebrews 10:10-14

God bless.

 

[SolaScriptura]

There are too many words translated as hell in the KJV. Hbr. Sheol (Psa 16:10) and Gr. Hades (Acts 2:27) mean "world of the dead" (where both paradise and hell are) and not hell, which is Gr. gehenna and Hbr. tophet

To show that sheol is not hell, notice that the NASB leaves the word sheol untranslated in Gen 37:35, Gen 42:38, Gen 44:29, Gen 44:31, 1 Ki 2:6, Job 17:16, Psa 16:10 and that in the KJV many of these are normally 'grave.'

Notice that Acts 2:27 does not say Jesus went to hades for punishment but merely that Jesus will not remain in hades, i.e. He would be resurrected. And that he went to Hades simply means that He died, in the same way that Jacob going down to sheol simply meant death in Gen 37:35 "For I will go down into the grave (SHEOL) unto my son mourning."

Do you honestly believe that part of Jesus is currently in hell taking our punishment and part of Him is in heaven? I feel sorry for you if you do. And if you don't, then He hasn't taken your punishment because you deserve an ENTIRE ETERNITY IN HELL, not just part of eternity.

Show me where the Bible talks about paying prices for salvation! I've yet to find those terms in the Word of God - it's the cleansing of the blood, not the payment of punishment. We are CLEANSED FROM SIN by Jesus blood. Salvation is by cleansing. 1 John 1:7

"For by one offering he hath perfected forever them that are sanctified." - Hebrews 10:14 -- You quoted this, and it proves that salvation is by the offering of Christ, not by the punishment. It is not by going to hell, but by offering [offering meaning sacrifice and not offering to go to hell].

[ August 14, 2002, 02:22 AM: Message edited by: SolaScriptura ]

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Frank:

If one is saved before and without baptism, he is also saved without repentance.

According to Frank, baptism contains some superstitious magical potion that has "repentance" contained within it. Just where can I find this water that saves?
DHK

 

[Perry]

Which post has Frank saying baptism has magic potion?

Perry

 

[Dualhunter]

Originally posted by SolaScriptura:
There are too many words translated as hell in the KJV. Hbr. Sheol (Psa 16:10) and Gr. Hades (Acts 2:27) mean "world of the dead" (where both paradise and hell are) and not hell, which is Gr. gehenna and Hbr. tophet

To show that sheol is not hell, notice that the NASB leaves the word sheol untranslated in Gen 37:35, Gen 42:38, Gen 44:29, Gen 44:31, 1 Ki 2:6, Job 17:16, Psa 16:10 and that in the KJV many of these are normally 'grave.'

Notice that Acts 2:27 does not say Jesus went to hades for punishment but merely that Jesus will not remain in hades, i.e. He would be resurrected. And that he went to Hades simply means that He died, in the same way that Jacob going down to sheol simply meant death in Gen 37:35.

Do you honestly believe that part of Jesus is currently in hell taking our punishment and part of Him is in heaven? I feel sorry for you if you do. And if you don't, then He hasn't taken your punishment because you deserve an ENTIRE ETERNITY IN HELL, not just part of eternity.

Show me where the Bible talks about paying prices for salvation! I've yet to find those terms in the Word of God - it's the cleansing of the blood, not the payment of punishment. We are CLEANSED FROM SIN by Jesus blood. Salvation is by cleansing. 1 John 1:7

"For by one offering he hath perfected forever them that are sanctified." - Hebrews 10:14 -- You quoted this, and it proves that salvation is by the offering of Christ, not by the punishment. It is not by going to hell, but by offering.

I agree with you on the issue of Sheol/Hades. Christ's death was payment for our sins, He redeemed us (ie. bought us) by giving His life on the cross. By His wounds we are healed. Christ paid our debt of sin redeeming us from death.

 

[Ruht]

"There are too many words translated as hell in the KJV. Hbr. Sheol (Psa 16:10) and Gr. Hades (Acts 2:27) mean "world of the dead" and not hell, which is Gr. gehenna and Hbr. tophet"

Well, this time the word hell is explicitly used.

Is "paradise" good enough for you to be referring to heaven?

"Notice that Acts 2:27 does not say Jesus went to hades for punishment but merely that Jesus will not remain in hades, i.e. He would be resurrected. And that he went to Hades simply means that He died."

Actually, it says hell. At least in the KJV.

"Do you honestly believe that part of Jesus is currently in hell taking our punishment and part of Him is in heaven?"

Don't know, actually, but do you believe that the earthly body of Jesus is still with him? If our sins are forever paid for, which they are, and therefore they are forever separated from the judgment of God, which they are, then that which redeemed us is also eternally separated from God along with that sin.

Christ only needed to die once for our sins to be forever forgiven and atoned for. Therefore this deed is also eternal.

"I feel sorry for you if you do."

No need to feel sorry for me, for I have eternal life, thanks to the shed blood of Jesus Christ, which eternally atones for my sin.

"And if you don't, then He hasn't taken your punishment because you deserve an ENTIRE ETERNITY IN HELL, not just part of eternity."

His atonement is good for all eternity, therefore he has borne my punishment for all eternity, also. Therefore his going into hell is also good for all eternity. I'm sorry if you do not think that is good enough for your standards.

I thank God, however, that it is his standards that will judge me.

"Show me where the Bible talks about paying prices for salvation! I've yet to find those terms in the Word of God - it's the cleansing of the blood, not the payment of punishment."

"For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's." - I Corinthians 6:20

"Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men." - I Corinthians 7:23

"... even denying the Lord that bought them..." - II Peter 2:1

"... which he hath purchased with his own blood." - Acts 20:28

"We are CLEANSED FROM SIN by Jesus blood. Salvation is by cleansing. 1 John 1:7'

And our cleansing only comes through the redemption of Jesus Christ, who has redeemed us. And the word "redeemed" means purchased. I can only suggest you get a dictionary and look up the word.

"For by one offering he hath perfected forever them that are sanctified." - Hebrews 10:14 -- You quoted this, and it proves that salvation is by the offering of Christ, not by the punishment. It is not by going to hell, but by offering [offering meaning sacrifice and not offering to go to hell]."

He "offered" to pay for our sins for us, which apparently included going into hell.

God Bless.

[ August 14, 2002, 02:26 AM: Message edited by: Ruht ]

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Perry:
Which post has Frank saying baptism has magic potion?
Perry

In the post I just quoted from, Aug.13, 11:27 p.m., when he said:
"If one is saved before and without baptism, he is also saved without repentance."

The implication of this statement is that the water of baptism somehow brings repentance. What I said, was in obvious sarcasm. But the heresy being promoted is grave. Water cannot save. Water does not bring repentance. It has no saving power. This is what Frank teaches, in that it is necessary for salvation.

The only thing necessary for salvation is faith in the sacrificial blood of the Lord Jesus Christ; faith in Him alone.
DHK

 

[SolaScriptura]

Well, this time the word hell is explicitly used...Actually, it says hell. At least in the KJV.

I know the KJV says 'hell' and it's a mistranslation. The KJV translates sheol, hades, gehenna, and tartaros as hell, when only tartaros and gehenna should be. (And I'm not one who loves to accuse the KJV of mistranslation - there are only 2, this 'hell' problem and 'Easter' in the book of Acts.)

...do you believe that the earthly body of Jesus is still with him?

I believe that His earthly body was glorified and is still with Him.

If our sins are forever paid for, which they are, and therefore they are forever separated from the judgment of God, which they are, then that which redeemed us is also eternally separated from God along with that sin.

Only according to you, not Scripture. God redeemed us, so is he eternally separated from Himself? Come on! The gospel redeems us, so is it eternally separated from God, etc.?

Christ only needed to die once for our sins to be forever forgiven and atoned for.

Then why did you say He had to go to hell for us?

No need to feel sorry for me, for I have eternal life, thanks to the shed blood of Jesus Christ, which eternally atones for my sin.

Why did you put your confidence in Jesus going to hell for you if it is His blood that saves? You need to seriously evalute your theology.

"For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's." - I Corinthians 6:20

"Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men." - I Corinthians 7:23

"... even denying the Lord that bought them..." - II Peter 2:1

"... which he hath purchased with his own blood." - Acts 20:28

He says "we are bought with a price" but not that this price was paid for sin - this price was paid for our purchase. EVEN HERE, the verse you quote make it OBVIOUS that the payment is not of punishment, but of blood!!! "He purchased" not with punishment, but "with His own blood." And, the sins are not simply payed for, but removed, taken away. (Heb 10:4) That does not simply mean that they are covered, but that they are GONE COMPLETELY. This could not be accomplished by mere payment, but only by cleansing.

(2 Pet 1:9) "But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was PURGED from his old sins." -- Payment is LEGAL and can do nothing but declare one righteous, but cleansing can actually make one righteous because it is ACTUAL.

[ August 14, 2002, 02:47 AM: Message edited by: SolaScriptura ]

 

[Frank]

Jerry:
The arguement made was that baptism was not essential to salvation. I deny what was posted as proceeded to show that from Acts 2:38 that it is essential. The Bible says what it says and means what it says and the Lord said what he meant. He that believeth and is baptized shall bne saved but he the believeth not shall be damned. Mk. 16:16. Peter affirms this act of faith is for unto the obtaining of the remission of sins. Acts 2:38. It is the sme Peter that said that baptism doth also now save us. I Pet.3:21. The same Peter that commmanded Cornelius to be baptized. Acts 10:47. Do you think he had forgotten what he had spoken in Acts 2 and I Pet. 3?

 

[Frank]

DHK:
There is no miraculous power in the water. Baptism puts one in contact with the blood of Christ. Rev.1:5, Eph.5:26, Acts 22:16, Romans 6:3,4. Baptism is an expression of faith. Acts 8:36-39. It demonstrates my trust in God and the blood of christ to do what I could never do for myself. Eph. 1:7, Eph. 3:12. Moroever, it will read that way on the day of judgement, too!
I affirm that water baptism is essential to salvation, not that it is the only thing. If I affirmed that, I would be making the ERROR YOU MAKE IN CLAIMING FAITH ONLY SAVES. Of course, you also believe in Repentance which makes two things, and grace which makes three. It does not make sense but that is how you argue.
When I have been with someone else, I was not alone.